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Avalon Champion
The Order of Odin
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Posted - 2009.07.17 07:04:00 -
[151]
Sorry to disappoint Voogru, im an inventor, and dont really give a crap if there people hold T2 BPO's.
To those that say T2 BPO holders are ruining the T2 market, thats crap, there are now a couple of dozen items that have no T2 BPO's and the margins on them are still very thin, just take HIC's, Marauders, Black ops, EW frigs, though they have started to increase a little.
Mods are slightly different as there are nice markups to be made from most, mainly due the fact that a lot of the components are not subject to Waste, only the base minerals (trit etc) are.
The problem with inventing profit is not T2 BPO owners, 80-90% of the T2 market is provided for by inventors, most who do the maths and dont beleive in 'free' datacores, decrypters etc.
Just my 2cents.
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voogru
Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2009.07.17 07:39:00 -
[152]
Edited by: voogru on 17/07/2009 07:39:48
Originally by: Avalon Champion To those that say T2 BPO holders are ruining the T2 market, thats crap, there are now a couple of dozen items that have no T2 BPO's and the margins on them are still very thin, just take HIC's, Marauders, Black ops, EW frigs, though they have started to increase a little.
T2 BPO owner propaganda!
Come to think of it, maybe they should remove the T2 BPO's.
I could have an EPIC ragequit.
Hate Farmers? Click Here |
Vyktor Abyss
Gallente The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.17 11:09:00 -
[153]
So quick to jump on any slice of what someone says that can help your argument, yet ignoring the fact presented by others...even if they are quivering space vaginas.
It all reminds me of Team America - dikz, puzzies and azzholes, we know which I am, DC is obvious too, so I hope you your happy being Kim-Jong-Il Voogru.
Funny
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Killer Gandry
Caldari Red Horizon Inc
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Posted - 2009.07.17 11:16:00 -
[154]
A T2 BPO is just the same as a rare ship or item. It's an investment that will generate you ISK over time. Just look at what a Guardian Vexor did cost on escrow back then they came out and then compare them with what they sell for now.
Same for the State Raven and so on.
Yes people spend ISK to get a BPO, yes they make money by actually using that BPO. And yes they get their investment back when they finally decide to sell said BPO.
So basicly you are saying that a normal market situation is borked because you can't participate with it by easyplaying the game.
My suggestion is simple.
Get off of your lazy ass, make a crapload of ISK and invest into something like T2 BPO, let's see how fast you jump the fence to root for the other side.
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Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.07.17 11:32:00 -
[155]
Originally by: FalconHawk you donŠt need to buy datacores, just go to your research agent and get them for free -> more profit -> stop whining
DATACORES I MINE ARE FREE!!!11111
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2009.07.17 11:33:00 -
[156]
I think we should all get our own personal Titans too
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Kari Moltov
Amarr The Forsakened Companions
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Posted - 2009.07.17 16:03:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Killer Gandry A T2 BPO is just the same as a rare ship or item. It's an investment that will generate you ISK over time. Just look at what a Guardian Vexor did cost on escrow back then they came out and then compare them with what they sell for now.
Same for the State Raven and so on.
Yes people spend ISK to get a BPO, yes they make money by actually using that BPO. And yes they get their investment back when they finally decide to sell said BPO.
So basicly you are saying that a normal market situation is borked because you can't participate with it by easyplaying the game.
My suggestion is simple.
Get off of your lazy ass, make a crapload of ISK and invest into something like T2 BPO, let's see how fast you jump the fence to root for the other side.
[signed]
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2009.07.17 16:09:00 -
[158]
I too want a tech II BPO. How about re-introducing the lottery via invention? All of a sudden in the middle of grind purgatory ta-daah! There's that golden ticket.
Delenda est achura. |
Kari Moltov
Amarr The Forsakened Companions
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Posted - 2009.07.17 16:23:00 -
[159]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: voogru Yeah, they totally didn't farm missions for months to get the standing required to use the research agents, and they also never trained up the skills. They got lucky, but saying they didn't put any effort in it whatsoever shows that you're missing the point.
Hahahaha training skills is effort, ahahahahaha.
And grinding standings for a couple days totally justifies the reward of printing money ad infinitum.
DC - you have been around a while - you were around (I think) when the lottery took place. People made their choices, some understood at the time what the rewards for "training skills" and "grinding standings" for a lot longer than a couple of days would reward them with.
Crying about that now in this way ain't great.......
You seem to genuinely have issues over this.
CCP have previously stated their thoughts on Tech II, the issues that arose as demand grew and their solutions.
When the lottery was announced I dug through the info given, thought about the chance of getting a BPO (you remember the chances?), realised this could be a massive thing (and still at a relatively early stage of Eve). I plumped on going for a research field I felt would be less in demand (so not ships) and got on with raising my standards and training up those annoying research skills. Whilst my friends were developing ways to have fun fighting I carried on ensuring my RP's were clocking up quickly.
Thankfully (unlike many others) I got an improved cloaking device II BPO.
Later I got a flycatcher BPO.
With the proceeds I bought an Absolution BPO etc etc.
I agree that the lottery was flawed, but hey, what isn't flawed when you want introduce a new tech system in the manner CCP envisaged.
For the current situation - someone posting above was right. Previously BPO production was short of demand - prices were therefore too high (but at the market price for the demand and supply). CCP developed invention (and clearly explained their thoughts for it). Invention has increased supply to meet demand. Prices have come down to what CCP consider acceptable - Tech II is cheaper.
I make less profit - I could cry about it, but then I realise again that this is a game with rules unlike the real world....... The decisions I made several years ago benefited me greatly for a while, benefit me well now and may benefit not at all in the future. The rules will dictate that.....
I look forward to ".. says a tech II producer.....". |
DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.17 16:41:00 -
[160]
Originally by: voogru Ah, so you're just jealous. Can't blow it out of the sky with overwhemling force, so "CCP nerf him!!!"
My unique ship > your unique ship, so no.
Originally by: Killer Gandry A T2 BPO is just the same as a rare ship or item. It's an investment that will generate you ISK over time. Just look at what a Guardian Vexor did cost on escrow back then they came out and then compare them with what they sell for now.
Same for the State Raven and so on.
The only commonality between T2 BPOs and all those other expensive hard-to-get things.. is that they're expensive and hard to get. Other than that, it's not even close.
If a T2 BPO was the same type of investment as a collector's item, you'd buy it and sit on it hoping it increases in value with time. In reality you're buying production capacity you can profit from, which has persistent market effects - and then usually sell the production capacity itself at a profit as your traditional form of investment.
There are items which are worth more than any T2 BPO in the game, and they have absolutely no economic or gameplay impact.
Originally by: Shai 'Hulud I think we should all get our own personal Titans too
T2 BPO's make a lot more sense if you think of them like a patent.
Sure, if you ignore a few gaping holes in the theory:
1. Patents are awarded to drive innovation, so the people who put the effort into inventing something can profit from that effort - which isn't the case with T2 BPOs. Even though some players put in 'effort' it wasn't in creating T2 BPOs, only in procuring rights to use them. They don't own the patent but want to claim patent rights anyway. Just like if I claimed patents to forum posting, and told you to get lost.
2. Most patents and intellectual properties aren't used by their creators, but licensed to manufacturers for some percentage of the profits - like T1 BPOs are licenses to independent manufacturers from the NPC empires who designed the ships. It makes absolutely zero business sense for Roden/Lai Dai/Carthum/etc to give a few highly exclusive licenses and let the main profits go to the manufacturers instead of them.
3. Patents expire after a reasonable length of time - to shift the benefits from the individual to society as a whole. If someone owned patents or licenses to a patent and didn't use it enough to justify the R&D or purchase, that would be technically referred to as "too bad, so sad". 5 years and trillions in profit is more than reasonable.
Why do commies always end up schooling people at capitalism?
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Killer Gandry
Caldari Red Horizon Inc
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Posted - 2009.07.17 16:55:00 -
[161]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Killer Gandry A T2 BPO is just the same as a rare ship or item. It's an investment that will generate you ISK over time. Just look at what a Guardian Vexor did cost on escrow back then they came out and then compare them with what they sell for now.
Same for the State Raven and so on.
The only commonality between T2 BPOs and all those other expensive hard-to-get things.. is that they're expensive and hard to get. Other than that, it's not even close.
Don't be a n00btard and quote the whole thing instead of a part you can counter with a crap statement. Because if you qouted the whole post your answer would be as stupid as your whole Jihad against T2 BPO's just cause you suck at them it seems.
Be a real Jihad type, make a load of ISK, buy the T2 BPO's and destroy them. Else just get into the line of the rest of the whiners or do a real discussion by replying to a whole answer and not cut posts apart and only counter those cut off parts you can keep hammering with the same old whine after whine.
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.17 17:00:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Nyphur The lottery system was a terrible idea, a mistake even, but it's something that can't be undone. There are some good arguments to make for the removal of T2 BPOs but there is a single counter-argument which is eternally insurmountable. If those blueprints are removed, those that bought them will have lost a lot of isk on previous purchases made under a different ruleset.
I already addressed this. Prices were set by players, even under the 'different ruleset'. The people who bought them know fully well that their value could change at any time, even if they don't expect or want it to. Players are only entitled to some refund if we're talking about system set prices and values.
And I hardly consider "people lose money" an insurmountable defense against balancing EVE. If so, CCP owes me a lot of money ;\
Originally by: Nyphur Those asking for the removal of T2 BPOs are requesting that other people's stuff be taken away under the assumption that the presence of T2 bpos is currently disrupting the market and removing them would help the greater EVE population more than enough to offset the harm done.
Actually, it's removing the BPO part, not removing the item completely. Most implementations call for a conversion to BPCs with many runs so they can be phased out naturally.
And the economic harm might be an assumption, but it's based on sound economic principles and deduction. It's not hard to recognize who is being affected and how, even if you don't know by how much. You're saying the "how much" part has to be substantial enough to offset the pain of transition. I find that funny because there's no way we could be talking about this "problem" if the amount of impact were negligible.
Originally by: Nyphur Putting aside for the moment that I have yet to see an irrefutable argument to that effect, it puts the burden of proof on those that want T2 BPOs to be removed. If you can't show incontrovertably that it would significantly help EVE, it's not really feasible.
I appreciate you trying to find a non-volatile middle ground in a thread full of carebear rage and verbosely articulated pwnage. But there is a problem with your reasoning, and to show it I'll use an example.
Can anyone here show proof that R64 moons are a problem? No. Yet most people would agree there should be changes for the sake of better competition. But even then, the competitive landscape of R64 moons is far superior than that of T2 BPOs. This is true since anybody can become an owner without the express consent (followed by transfer of huge sums of money) from the other party. Players only think it's really screwed because of margins and the effort required to get in on the action, but then R64 have much higher risks, efforts and investments involved to help justify them.
Assume for a minute that we overhauled both R64 moons and T2 BPOs. Most people would notice market differences in the former, but not the latter. Does that mean R64 moon changes are "significantly helping EVE" and removal of T2 BPOs are not? No, because helping EVE is not equivalent to helping players save a bunch of money. This isn't Geico Online.
You don't need data to show proof of competitive faults and other problems in EVE, you only need data to show the scale of the impact. And if it's a problem with any impact, it deserves to be fixed. The only effect it has is determining how quickly it gets fixed.
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.17 17:07:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Killer Gandry Don't be a n00btard and quote the whole thing instead of a part you can counter with a crap statement. Because if you qouted the whole post your answer would be as stupid as your whole Jihad against T2 BPO's just cause you suck at them it seems.
Be a real Jihad type, make a load of ISK, buy the T2 BPO's and destroy them. Else just get into the line of the rest of the whiners or do a real discussion by replying to a whole answer and not cut posts apart and only counter those cut off parts you can keep hammering with the same old whine after whine.
You mean I forgot to quote this magnificent specimen?
Originally by: Killer Gandry So basicly you are saying that a normal market situation is borked because you can't participate with it by easyplaying the game.
My suggestion is simple.
Get off of your lazy ass, make a crapload of ISK and invest into something like T2 BPO, let's see how fast you jump the fence to root for the other side.
You're right, my point doesn't counter your ad hominem and unsolicited advice. But that's because I'm not in any rush to defend my honor to people who are below me as players.
Not only have I done more challenging things than you (-easygoing) and gone to extreme lengths (-lazy), but I'm hilariously wealthier (-make a crapload of ISK) even though I sold most of my T2 BPOs ages ago and spent all the money (-jump the fence).
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.17 17:12:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Kari Moltov 70% personal life story, 30% broad statements
Why are you rehashing history of the lottery? If you read anything I wrote, you'd know this thread has nothing to do with fixing the injustices of the past. Which is where your implying that I'm personally involved and crying over it comes from.
I would also be careful when using phrases like "CCP have previously stated..."
They're the ones who promised to turn T2 BPOs into BPCs after Invention in the first place.
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Angelique Divinity
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.07.17 17:17:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones Hmm, now i have an idea.
1: Gather massive loads of isk. 2: Buy every T2BPO in game. 3: DESTROY ALL OF THEM!!! 4: Enjoy the following events
I like your style. I'm now off to ask Chribba for a small loan
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voogru
Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2009.07.17 17:18:00 -
[166]
Edited by: voogru on 17/07/2009 17:24:19
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Not only have I done more challenging things than you (-easygoing) and gone to extreme lengths (-lazy), but I'm hilariously wealthier (-make a crapload of ISK) even though I sold most of my T2 BPOs ages agoand spent all the money (-jump the fence).
Ah ha! A former T2 BPO owner who's bitter that he sold his prints for far less than what he could have got for them now.
Wait a minute, you SOLD the T2 BPO's? Why didn't you trash them? For the better of EVE, you know.
Oooooh right, because you put substantial amount of effort into getting your hands on them!
Heres where your entire "for the better of EVE as a whole" argument falls apart, if I were to offer you a Basilisk BPO that I bought ages ago (post invention though), for the same price that I paid for it, when it was massivly undervalued due to the fact that Basilisks used to cost 24 million ISK to make and sold for 25 million ISK.
What would you do with it?
Would you trash it for the better of EVE? Or resell it? If you sell it, you'll make tens of billions. If you trash it, you'll lose tens of billions.
Pretty much everyone here knows that you'd resell it on the spot, or produce from it.
If you say otherwise, you're a liar.
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
They're the ones who promised to turn T2 BPOs into BPCs after Invention in the first place.
Find this quote on and I'll deposit 250M ISK into your wallet. It needs to be a definite "yes". Not a "perhaps", "maybe", "were thinking about it".
It must along of the lines of "We will turn BPO's into BPC's", must be on EVE-Online forum or dev blogs/news. IRC doesn't count. Rumors don't count.
Hate Farmers? Click Here |
DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.17 17:35:00 -
[167]
Wow, talk about reaching.
Should I be calling your chiropractor just in case?
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft Total Comfort
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Posted - 2009.07.17 17:56:00 -
[168]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist stuff
While I'd love to respond in a more appropriately intelligent manner, what you've essentially just done is provide me with a very verbose "no". There is almost nothing to respond to, you've cherry-picked a few key sentences and replied to them with broadly dismissive statements. There are no solid arguments, no facts presented for dispute and I don't think any of the reasoning presented has a consistent logic to it. And I'm aware of the irony in doing exactly the same dismissive thing back at you, but for the sake of brevity I'll leave it at that.
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Kari Moltov
Amarr The Forsakened Companions
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Posted - 2009.07.17 18:23:00 -
[169]
Edited by: Kari Moltov on 17/07/2009 18:24:58
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Kari Moltov 70% personal life story, 30% broad statements
Why are you rehashing history of the lottery? If you read anything I wrote, you'd know this thread has nothing to do with fixing the injustices of the past. Which is where your implying that I'm personally involved and crying over it comes from.
I would also be careful when using phrases like "CCP have previously stated..."
They're the ones who promised to turn T2 BPOs into BPCs after Invention in the first place.
"70% personal life story, 30% broad statements" -
(Un)fortunately I did spend some of this afternoon reading this thread.
I don't believe I am "re-hashing" the history of the lottery, I do think that I'm explaining the point of view of someone who was involved with it.
I don't belive that this thread started off to fix the injusticies of the past, I do think it has evolved a long way from where it started......
Whilst you may have done elsewhere, in this thread from your opening post (which intimates at why) through to now you do not explain why you think Tech II BPOs should be removed from the game. I'd especially like to understand (in bold) "The reason T2 BPOs haven't been converted to BPCs yet, despite the promises and overwhelming logic supporting such a move".
The lottery, in the form it took, was not a fair way to achieve the limited supply CCP may have wanted if you believe it unfair to place such immediate wealth in the hands of so few (which is a very fair point),
In a perfect world something like, or exactly like invention would have been preferable allowing everyone the same chance (but remember the lottery gave everyone the same chance if you participated to collect RPs) to delve into Tech II whilst far more importantly putting a stop to the weath generation being in the hands of the few.
CCP missed the perfect world.
The lead time from Tech II inception to invention was also not short - prompted by increasing supply and I guess the howling of non-Tech II BPO owners (which again wasn't an unreasonable howl).
Over that lead time - trade in Tech II BPO has become high. Gone was the argument of "remove them as the owner didn't work for them", they'd become tradable assets. For a lot of people these are investments they have planned for the future, investments that take time to realise. You say that that is negated by the BPO's realisable value. Well, yes that's true, but its value in use isn't the same as its realisable value.
As of now many Tech II BPO's do not generate significant margins. Others which generated quite obscene profits don't anymore - they provide a steady income, equivelent to many other forms of isk generation in game. But for those steady incomes you sacrifice 2-4 years future profits (which are certainly not secure). They provide an income which is, at least in the short term, fixed. The price is capped where invention achives marginal profitability (something CPP must have modelled and tweaked to achieve their aim now).
So again I ask what do you mean by "The reason T2 BPOs haven't been converted to BPCs yet, despite the promises and overwhelming logic supporting such a move"?
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Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2009.07.17 20:16:00 -
[170]
While I do not support the idea, a conversion of T2 BPO's to high run bpc's could be done in a sufficiently fair manner. Mind you, my idea of fair would be 2-3 years worth of run time
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Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2009.07.17 20:43:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Shai ''Hulud on 17/07/2009 20:45:15 Edited by: Shai ''Hulud on 17/07/2009 20:44:34 The thing that worries me most, however, is that EVE may actually lose an integral component of its economy. It's great that there are limited run ships, etc., that serve as investment vehicles (as well as cool toys). But at this time, t2 bpo's serve as unique economic investment options.
If I buy the rights to a popular song or stocks, I do so in the interest of potential value increases AND sustained income. You are right, DC, t2 bpo's do not represent an ideal incarnation of patents and other real world investment options - yet in their loss I feel EVE would actually suffer.
Of course, t2 bpo's could always be replaced by a better in-game investment mechanism
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Research Shizzle
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Posted - 2009.07.20 07:59:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Alinder A question. What do you have research agents for now? more than data cores that is a usless waset of the RP isk wise
Waste of RPs isk-wise? I just cashed in the RP's I have with 5 R&D agents that I had forgotten about for about 6 months......Just selling to current market buy orders I made 1.8 Bil......for doing absolutely nothing.....Yeah total waste of RPs...
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.07.20 09:56:00 -
[173]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 20/07/2009 09:57:06 people suggesting buying an existing T2 BPO are joking. I'm after such a BPO for a decent time but I realized the T2 BPOs must be just prestige objects because of their horrible cost. Rarely the ROI is under 3 years (what is very much for a game), the most BPOs sold on the sell-board have a break even time of several DECADES, practically the investment on the most T2 BPOs will be never returned!
Yes, many people say you may sell your purchased BPOs later. However, the probability of getting the money back depends on a statistical chance to find some idiot who pays the same money as you did. More likely, CCP does some changes in the game which halfen the BPO's value, keep in mind the lack of logics behind investing tenths of billions of ISK for producing over some months and resell the BPO then, with the higher chance of losing money on it, the profit just does not relate to the cost of these BPOs. You may make more ISK investing those billions in other things or put it into market or whatever.
My conclusion from all that: T2 BPOs are a cash cow for these people who were lucky to get them in the lottery and they aren't worth of buying for anyone else, unless you're interested in them as a prestige item. BUYING them nowadays is just INSANE and never pays back mostly.
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000Hunter000
Gallente Missiles 'R' Us
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Posted - 2009.07.20 11:29:00 -
[174]
soooo.... What would a typical T2 hi damage light missile bpo be worth? ________________________________________________
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.07.20 12:12:00 -
[175]
I will take this opportunity to state than I do not like T2 BPO's as they are currently.
That out of the way I'm not holding my breath over CCP doing anything about them. Would be nice if they would either remove them from game or introduce in game way to get some some other way than having to buy from a player but well ... They will not do the first and second one ... dunno ... prolly not.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.07.20 12:16:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Robert Caldera people suggesting buying an existing T2 BPO are joking.
No, they are not.
Quote: Rarely the ROI is under 3 years (what is very much for a game), the most BPOs sold on the sell-board have a break even time of several DECADES, practically the investment on the most T2 BPOs will be never returned!
Nah, a lot sell for little over 2 year's profits... mainly because said profits are quite minimal. There's only a handful of REALLY USEFUL/VALUABLE T2 BPOs, and those, yes, they sell for up to one decade's worth of profits. Also... yeah, three years might be a lot for a typical MMO, but for EVE ? Business as usual.
Quote: Yes, many people say you may sell your purchased BPOs later. However, the probability of getting the money back depends on a statistical chance to find some idiot who pays the same money as you did.
That chance is actually still quite damned high, and will probably remain as such for a good while.
Quote: More likely, CCP does some changes in the game which halfen the BPO's value
They already did that more than two years ago when they introduced invention.
Quote: My conclusion from all that: T2 BPOs are a cash cow for these people who were lucky to get them in the lottery and they aren't worth of buying for anyone else, unless you're interested in them as a prestige item. BUYING them nowadays is just INSANE and never pays back mostly.
When you have several dozens, maybe hundreds of BILION ISK you almost never use because it would be too much of a hassle to invest (or you simply lack the slots to do so) in any other way, purchasing a T2 BPO is still a damn fine investment. A tiny percentage of a lot oc cash beats zero percent of anything any time. Yes, T2 BPOs aren't for everybody, but they're very useful to a certain (rather small) percentage of the EVE population.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Soulita
Gallente Inner Core
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Posted - 2009.07.20 12:34:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Kari Moltov So again I ask what do you mean by "The reason T2 BPOs haven't been converted to BPCs yet, despite the promises and overwhelming logic supporting such a move"?
I can not speak for DC, but for me the reasoning behind wanting t2BPOs removed is this:
The lottery was a flawed and corrupt system. Invention has somehow fixed the damage done a little. To finally come clean once and for all, the t2BPOs - as last relics of this sad past - have to be removed.
Btw, I do not understand how someone like you, Kari Moltov, could argue in favor of keeping them in game. Have you not made enough isk of them yet?
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Craam Hustler
Gallente ReTech
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Posted - 2009.07.20 13:06:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Soulita The lottery was a flawed and corrupt system. Invention has somehow fixed the damage done a little. To finally come clean once and for all, the t2BPOs - as last relics of this sad past - have to be removed.
A few players cheated and got T2 BPO's from devs, they were punished. (dearly I might add)
But, that's not good enough.
All players with T2 BPO's be punished too!
It's only fair.
It's worthless to discuss this thread, it's just an everlasting fight between the 'haves' and the 'have nots', the 'have nots' want the 'haves' nerfed into oblivion, the 'haves' want the 'have nots' to actually apply logic to their demands.
Every single 'have not' would be on the other side ('the haves') if they actually put work into earning their own T2 BPO's.
How about we do this, players who cheat get punished, and players who don't cheat are left alone?
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Soulita
Gallente Inner Core
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Posted - 2009.07.20 14:32:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Craam Hustler Every single 'have not' would be on the other side ('the haves') if they actually put work into earning their own T2 BPO's.
Realy? Has it ever come to your mind that some people might argue for what they percieve to be for the good of the game instead of for their own interests?
And to be honest, I have yet to hear a single good argument for keeping t2BPOs in game - besides the: "I have a t2BPO - and so they must stay!" crowd.
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum Pax Romana Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.21 12:12:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Gartel Reiman on 21/07/2009 12:14:20
Originally by: Soulita I can not speak for DC, but for me the reasoning behind wanting t2BPOs removed is this:
The lottery was a flawed and corrupt system. Invention has somehow fixed the damage done a little. To finally come clean once and for all, the t2BPOs - as last relics of this sad past - have to be removed.
I think everyone agrees that the lottery was not an ideal way to introduce said BPOs. However, to me that's an argument against their initial method of distribution, rather than their existence.
Answer me honestly - if it could be shown that every single BPO was no longer in the hands of those who won it at the auction, but rather "honest" people who had bought it with their own ISK, how much validity does your point still hold? (Note that I'm not suggesting this is necessarily true of EVE, but it's a thought experiment to ascertain where the problem lies.)
At that point, all accusations of elitism, corruption, people being lucky etc. dissipate. Because at that point T2 BPOs exist, and are purchasable by anyone with enough ISK and motivation to go for them. There's no inequality here, it's standard capitalism as with any other item.
Now if you consider opportunity cost, this above is effectively true for every BPO. All the current BPO holders either purchased their BPO for ISK (which I presume the vast majority did, in fact), or won their BPO worth x billion ISK - and gave up the opportunity to sell it for that price, in order to keep it and produce from it, thus resulting in their wallet being x billion ISK lower than it otherwise would have been.
I don't think that getting rid of T2 BPOs would benefit the game, either. They allow those who invested in them a small benefit in production costs over inventors, but for the majority of items have nowhere near enough production volume to be able to influence market prices compared to inventors. They also allow one guaranteed production of a T2 item without having to go through the invention process a potentially unbounded number of times, if you wish to pay the appropriate amount of money for the BPO for this convenience.
Yes, the lottery wasn't a fair way of distributing the BPOs initially. But now that they're in game, the system is fair in that anyone can obtain one at an appropriate price for its "unique" benefits, and invention stops BPOs from affecting the markets in any notable fashion. So I don't think it's possible to contend that they're unfair, which is the only reason I've actually seen for removing them.
Edit: I should probably mention as well that I don't own any T2 BPOs and never have, since ad hominem seems to be the name of the game...
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