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Why are there still T2 BPO's in the game but I can never get one?

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Allamarr	Posted - 2009.07.14 11:57:00 - [1] This was a dev post from several years ago... if its inaccurate and there arn't still T2 bpos' in the game plz let me know... Begin Sited Dev Comments : How do we then get blueprint originals in the future? The short answer, is that you don't. When we transition over to Invention, we would accelerate the last blueprint lotteries. It's only fair that the ones that are already scheduled to go out be delivered. But say that we do the transition in Revelations 1.4, we would be accelerating the current schedule by 4 months. After that, Invention - the player driven way to achieve Tech 2 blueprint copies would be the only way to get into Tech 2. Why? Well, at this point in time, we're simply not confident that any other system which we implement to deliver these icons of endless weatlh would earn your full trust. We need to earn your trust through this first, then we should talk together and find the final solution. Invention is a new system, it's much easier to track activity in and short of being our database administrator, you can't tamper with it. But that isn't really our main point, the main point is that if somehow, someone, tampers, exploits or hacks it, the damage is minimal, it's a blueprint copy and incredibly trackable. Looking forward, perhaps the solution is simply stopping this original work and allowing reserarching of the copies from invention to make the them efficient after the invention process? Perhaps Reverse Engineering should be the mechanism to allow you to further increase the runs of an Invented copy at the cost of less efficiency? We don't have the answers yet, but sincerely hope you'll participate in this debate about the future of technology in EVE and help us find the answers. A corny movie said, "you make me want to be a better Amarr" and I'm feelin' it. End of Dev Comments: Ok so Basically years ago there were t2 BPO's that you could buy off the market... Then people cheated somehow... so they went to a Lottery system... People still cheated... so they went to the system we have now... you can't buy or earn a T2 BPO for ANYTHING unless you buy if from someone who has a left over from years ago. Because they didn't take them out of the game or convert the originals that were in the game to copies. If anyone has ever tried to obtain one of these T2Bpos they know as i found out that they cost BILLIONS or HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of isk. So now eve is separated into two major classes... you have your first character I'll call him Charlie he's been around for years. Then you have Micah he's been playing for about a year and finally getting into some serious production and want to start building T2 Charlie was around when all the cheating was going on and through little fault of his own ended up with a t2 bpo for a damage control II, a 100mn microwarp drive II, and a sensor booster II. Like any good builder he put these in his lab and researched them to an ideal ME and PE to save on cost. Now here comes Micah... a few years later but trying to accomplish the same thing. Micah trains skills like a mad man so that he has the slightest chance of a successful invention. But still 2 out of 3 fail... increasing expenses exponentially. Micah keeps trying though and eventually gets a 20 run t2 bpo for a damage control II. But when micah tries to research it... he slaps himself in the head for thinking such a thing after all you can't research a copy. So now Charlie and Micah take there blueprints to the factory. Micah puts in 100% of the materials needed to build one run of damage control's given his bpc and the horrible ME on it... Charlie puts in about 70% of that and they both get the same thing out of the factory in a few hours. A brand spanking new Damage control II. yey... oh but wait.. it didn't just cost Micah and extra 30% to build his damage control II.. he waited a lot of time and isk on "attempts" at a successful invention. DonÆt forget about that.
Allamarr	Posted - 2009.07.14 11:57:00 - [2] So in the end. Charlie haveing a T2 BPO with high research on it spend about 200k isk building his DC II. Then he sold it on the market for 1 million isk giving him a profit of 800,000 isk. Not bad profit margin. Micah on the other hand spend 800,000 isk building his DC II. Remembe he had to buy datacores to attempt invention and use more mateial for the final build because he can't research his copy. Still he sold his DC II for 1 million isk on the market same as Charlie did. But Charlie got a 400% return on his build and he can do it all day every day forever. Micah got a 20% return for all of his work but his copy will run out and then he will "try" and get another one. But its ok... there is hope for Micah... Charlie doesn't just have 1 of the t2 BPOS for the damage control... back when he was buying them off the market or cheating to get them. Or was a CCP dev and just wrote them into his hangar. Before the comments made at the outset of this thread were published years ago he got 200 of them :) and he will sell a full researched T2 BPO to Micah for the incredibly low price of...... (suspense moment) ....... 235 BILLION isk... yey... there is hope for micah to get into the real t2 production.. all hope isn't lost... all he has to do is ransom the president to get the 235 "B"illion isk and he is good to go. Seriously... am I the only person that sees a problem with this? Why do I have a problem with this... Simple. A few days ago I was getting ready to go on a roam with some guys in 0.0. The FC wanted to know if anyone could fly a t2 logistics ship. One guy said yea i can but i dont have one... The FC says... here take this one.. and gave it to him. Surprised the guy askes why he would give him such and expensive ship... The FC says.. "its ok... i have a few t2 bpo's left over from way back and thanks to them I rake in about 17 "b"ill a week." Thats INSAIN but completely realistic depending on what blueprints he has. So in the end we have two classes of people in eve... First you have the "Filthy Rich" Charlie class... Some of them were honest players who now have an unfair advantage over new players simply because they have been playing longer. Some of them were or still are CCP devs who cheated there butts off. And some of them were just all around scammers, cheaters, low lifes who exploited the game on as many accounts and they could and didn't get caught. Some of them did.. some of the ccp dev's got caught but they surely didn't get them all as they admitted its very hard to track. The next group is the poor (relatively speaking) Micah class. Some of them have decent skills... some have very high skills... some make a little isk buiding some make a lot of isk building.. but none of them can hold a canndle to the Charlie class... why ... because they hadn't started playing the game yet... simple as that. So why didn't CCP convert all the T2 BPOS to copies when they stoped releasing them? they must have had some vested interest... Maybe they didn't want to give up their own t2 bpos... maybe they had 2000 angry bpo holders threaten to leave the game. I couldn't say. All I do know is that when the new probes came out a couple patches ago they didn't mind converting my entire collection of old probe blueprints that i spend a small fortune on into copy after copy of the new one that could be found a dime a dozen. So plz.. everyone give me and CCP your thought... I really want to know whats going on here... and what I really want is for you to Either get rid of the t2 BPO's... or make it realistically possible for me to get them too. I dont care if you turn them into 200 run copies and leave their incredible research on them so long as they do run out and those who want to be t2 builders are all on the same playing field. I dont think its too much to ask for everyone in eve to be playing the same game. And dont kid yourself... right now we are not! Sincerely, Allamarr
Selma Body Amarr Ad Astra Vexillum Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:01:00 - [3] Get 20+ bil.. Buy T2 BPO Profit. In 2-3 years that is. Just like in every MMO out there - older players have GASP advantage. Sucks to be you ...
Ndauthina	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:01:00 - [4] Because of Falcon
Bonny Lee Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:02:00 - [5] sad panda
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:08:00 - [6] Over my cold dead body there where never T2 bpo's on the market Invention outperfoms T2 bpo's the real money is in the R64 moons you can own t2 bpo's like you can own most other things that are not npc produced - you buy them off players -- RaTTuS @ InEve, Capital Prints for sale
Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:09:00 - [7] Too read, didn't long. -------------------- What? Me Worry? --------------------
CommmanderInChief Comply Or Die	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:14:00 - [8] Edited by: CommmanderInChief on 14/07/2009 12:16:50 Well hes got a point tbh, but yeah its because they were here first. Look at the major powerblocs in eve? they got there because they wasnt that many people back in the day to stop them, and well 5000 in eve doesnt take up all the space, now theres 100x more. The older alliances had plenty of time to build fortresses and get established, new alliances and corps well they are basically fecked as the game doesnt cater for them, and doesnt give them the same chance. Its like an older player will alwyas be better than a new player, purely becuase of the skilling, its not how much you play its how long. However the person from 2003 could have logged in once ever, but kept training, will be a whole lot better than a 2008 character who plays every single day. I think everyone knows its a massive advantage being a older player/corp/alliance shame CCP dont see that. My suggestions Remove T2 BPOS, let CCP buy them back so ppl dont lose out. Then invention is just used Make Moon Gold random, meaning moons can be gold one day the next just dust, or have a time or resource limit on how much is available. Change SOV Mechanics big time!
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:15:00 - [9] T2 BPOs are obsolete relics of a long past age. Cleaning them up just isn't worth the whines for the little database space they occupy. No new T2 BPOs are currently seeded and none should be ever seeded again. -------- Ideas for: Mining
FalconHawk Amarr Shadow Rebellion	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:15:00 - [10] you don¦t need to buy datacores, just go to your research agent and get them for free -> more profit -> stop whining

Linoya Del	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:16:00 - [11] Then why do the dev comments say that they we given in a lotty and as npc mission rewards? I've been trying to get into t2 production for a while now but i just can't compete with the prices people are selling their t2 items for. I calculate the good it would do me to max out the rest of the skill and i would still be better off building t1. But now it makes perfect sense... I only play this game becasue i thought it was fun to build stuff. I dont run mission or pvp.. I just sit in the station trying to figure out how to make a profit of buying minerals and selling my products... so far its been incredibly frustrating and now i know why. I'm not trying to be a woose about this but I may quit the game over this. I wont play a game where my hands are tied behind my back while other have such a superior advantage just because they started playing before some Dev's got caught cheating.
Ishma Nelass	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:20:00 - [12] If you did a quick search you would find hundreds of threads complaining about exactly the same thing that you are complaining about. I suggest you look up one of these for a full account of why the system as it is is fine and the actual history of T2 BPOs, which you seem to have slightly confused. A brief summary: the T2 lottery was a horribly broken system, that was why it was removed and that is why we do not want it back. The existing BPOs will not be destroyed because that would be unfair on the people who saved up billions of isk to buy them. Eventually they will disappear as the result of attrition from abandoned accounts and being transported in ships that get shot down. They aren't as huge an advantage as you seem to think, most T2 production is done by invention after all.
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:22:00 - [13] someone will always have advantage. someone will always whine. get over it.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:24:00 - [14] Originally by: Linoya Del Then why do the dev comments say that they we given in a lotty and as npc mission rewards? I've been trying to get into t2 production for a while now but i just can't compete with the prices people are selling their t2 items for. I calculate the good it would do me to max out the rest of the skill and i would still be better off building t1. But now it makes perfect sense... I only play this game becasue i thought it was fun to build stuff. I dont run mission or pvp.. I just sit in the station trying to figure out how to make a profit of buying minerals and selling my products... so far its been incredibly frustrating and now i know why. I'm not trying to be a woose about this but I may quit the game over this. I wont play a game where my hands are tied behind my back while other have such a superior advantage just because they started playing before some Dev's got caught cheating. The lottery was abandoned ages ago. T2 production was moved to Invention, which far outperforms T2 BPOs in production amount per time period. If you leave over this, can I have your stuff? -------- Ideas for: Mining
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:35:00 - [15] OP can get a T2 BPO in exactly the same way that ~90% of the current BPO owners did: Buy one from someone else.
Marika Sol Gallente Spazzed Out Enterprises	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:42:00 - [16] ok i admit i didn't know everything about t2 bpos before i read this but it comes down to a simple point which everyone here has helped to make already. so I'll condense it. 1) T2 BPO's are still in the game. 2) New Players can't get them 3) Old players don't want to give them up 4) Hundreds or thousands of people have a problem with it 5) CCP wont do anything about them because they "supposedly" don't give any advantage over invention 6) If that were true it would not be an issue... they would get rid of them and consider they have done those holding them a favor. 7) Waaa waa whine whine. One guy WHINES because he has no T2 bpo... another guy whines even harder because he has one and doesn't like the first guy bringing it to anyone's attention how he's been ripping them off for years. You can not complain about someone else whining without whining yourself... its impossible. sorry that's the way it is... so maybe EVERYONE can stop whining and discuss the topic at hand. if you don't have something constructive or informative to say then plz... don't open your mouth and show everyone how stupid you are. If I don't bother YOU, DON'T bother ME.
Tiny Tove	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:42:00 - [17] T2 Invention sets the price. T2 BPO balances it with volume. Over time the T2 BPOs will vanish and the balance point will creep accordingly. I think I've destroyed about 3 myself. I've done my part, what have you done to further the cause? Nothing. That's what. Nothing.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:44:00 - [18] Hmm, now i have an idea. 1: Gather massive loads of isk. 2: Buy every T2BPO in game. 3: DESTROY ALL OF THEM!!! 4: Enjoy the following events My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Alinder	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:00:00 - [19] A question. What do you have research agents for now? more than data cores that is a usless waset of the RP isk wise

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:05:00 - [20] Invention can corner the BPO holders at any time, you can earn more ISK per day with invention at more expensive production than you can using a BPO at cheaper production. It's all about the number of items you can produce (ofc this may not apply to all BPOs, but most should). Secure 3rd party service


Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:11:00 - [21] Copy-pasting Malacanis' post: OP can get a T2 BPO in exactly the same way that ~90% of the current BPO owners did : buy one from someone else. T2 BPO prices have dropped significantly from the "good old days", so actually a lot of of the current owners are still not in the black overall if you draw the line and sum it all up. EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:18:00 - [22] Originally by: Marika Sol ok i admit i didn't know everything about t2 bpos before i read this but it comes down to a simple point which everyone here has helped to make already. so I'll condense it. 1) T2 BPO's are still in the game. 2) New Players can't get them 3) Old players don't want to give them up 4) Hundreds or thousands of people have a problem with it 5) CCP wont do anything about them because they "supposedly" don't give any advantage over invention 6) If that were true it would not be an issue... they would get rid of them and consider they have done those holding them a favor. 7) Waaa waa whine whine. One guy WHINES because he has no T2 bpo... another guy whines even harder because he has one and doesn't like the first guy bringing it to anyone's attention how he's been ripping them off for years. You can not complain about someone else whining without whining yourself... its impossible. sorry that's the way it is... so maybe EVERYONE can stop whining and discuss the topic at hand. if you don't have something constructive or informative to say then plz... don't open your mouth and show everyone how stupid you are. Old players will cheerfully give them up - for what they are worth. T2 BPOs come up for sale all the time. You neglect to consider that most of the BPO owners PAID for those BPOs. They have a pay-back time of ~3 years or so. That's where the OP's construction calculation fails - he has not considered the vast capital cost of the BPO, and he has not considered the production limit. Somone who bought a T2 BPO two years ago, and who has been running it flat out ever since, is probably still a year away from breaking even on it. Anyone who bought a BPO before Invention was announced might well be even further away from profiting, because BPOs crashed in value back in early 07. T2 BPOs dont have a significant effect on the market price of T2 goods because the volume isn't there. A single BPO can only produce a single production run at a time. The only items for which BPOs make invention unattractive are those for which demand is so low that existing BPOs in use can supply most or all of the demand. As stated above, the real ISK in T2 production goes to the R64 moon owners, because that's where the supply bottleneck is. Complain about those if you like, but dont complain about a guy with a BPO that, in all likelihood, has so far only been a massive financial investment that has yet to pay off. If you're not making much ISK inventing, remember that T2 prices fell because of invention. The current market prices are NOT set by BPO holders; they're set by people who are better at invention (or simply have better access to moongoo) than you.
Beldaws Gallente Maniac Miners	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:18:00 - [23] Over half of my T2 bpos just sit in my hanger collecting dust. I'm doing my part in reducing the number T2 bpos being produced from. My friends make way more isk in wormholes than I do from T2 production. Heck, even my friends that do nothing but sell researched T1 bpos make as much if not more isk than I do!
Xen Mind School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:21:00 - [24] Edited by: Xen Mind on 14/07/2009 13:22:31 okay lets try this a T2 module BPO has a limited run of 100 invention have unlimited runs... (due to the fact it only take 1 hour 15 min pr T2 copy to pop out) A fully trained invention char can do 11 research jobs at a time given the char is online for 12 hours he may do this 9 times so 9*11 is 99 invention runs at a succes of about 45 % which is about what module bpc invention will will yield do thats about 45 t2 BPC's at 10 runs pr copy so thats 450 modules you can build at the time factor of 2 days .... so thats 3 days worth 450 t2 modules ( granted you need the build slot to build them ... but thats what your 2 other slot on your account can be used for ) Now a T2 BPO has a limit of 100 runs each module takes 2 hour and 15 minuttes to produce give or take depending on PE so 100 runs of a T2 BPO takes 8 days to produce Even if you had only 1 manufacturing char in 8 days and 8 hours which it takes on a t2 bpo you can still produce 300 units of you invention bpc in that time .... and belive me the ME on t2 bpos is not something you make money on except for the ship ones So you see it dosent matter at all that you have a BPO as the inventions can easily outway that .... so please stop whining
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:28:00 - [25] Originally by: Beldaws Over half of my T2 bpos just sit in my hanger collecting dust. I'm doing my part in reducing the number T2 bpos being produced from. My friends make way more isk in wormholes than I do from T2 production. Heck, even my friends that do nothing but sell researched T1 bpos make as much if not more isk than I do! Out of curiousity, which BPOs are gathering dust? Have you considered putting them in for ME/PE improvement rather than just have them lay idle? Or running off BPCs for sale?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:34:00 - [26] Quote: So plz.. everyone give me and CCP your thought... I really want to know whats going on here... and what I really want is for you to Either get rid of the t2 BPO's... or make it realistically possible for me to get them too. I dont care if you turn them into 200 run copies and leave their incredible research on them so long as they do run out and those who want to be t2 builders are all on the same playing field. I dont think its too much to ask for everyone in eve to be playing the same game. And dont kid yourself... right now we are not! Well we got an Eagle BPO at the weekend that was on open in-game auction free for anyone in Eve to bid on. In the end we won with a bid of 50billion plus. Thats capitalism baby. You can say its difficult for you to get a tech2 bpo - and that would be fair comment. But it is not (and never has been) "impossible." I fail to see why your plaintive call to have our 50billion isk radically devalued by having the thing turned into a 200 run or replicated is in any way reasonable. Save up the money, form an investment cartel - hell, borrow some cash from ebank and get bidding. 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
Schani Kratnorr x13	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:43:00 - [27] The lottery was a horrendous way to seed tech two blueprint originals. All the other reasonable objections aside, the one thing no one liked, was the lack of scalability. At one point, twenty blueprints of a given type would be enough. A few months later, the actual demand would exeed the theoretical production limit. To remidy this, CCP had to keep seeding more prints (and so on.) It was agreed, that the system was fundamentally flawed. Invention was the solution they came up with. As more and more players enter EVE (and train for T2 stuff,) the production capacity of active T2 originals relative to the capacity of inventors will deminish. Ideally, the originals should never have been introduced, but seeing as a fair number of people have invested heavily in buying them up, there is no fair way to simply "vanish" them.
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:44:00 - [28] Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 14/07/2009 13:47:18 Originally by: Xen Mind Edited by: Xen Mind on 14/07/2009 13:22:31 okay lets try this a T2 module BPO has a limited run of 100 invention have unlimited runs... (due to the fact it only take 1 hour 15 min pr T2 copy to pop out) A fully trained invention char can do 11 research jobs at a time given the char is online for 12 hours he may do this 9 times so 9*11 is 99 invention runs at a succes of about 45 % which is about what module bpc invention will will yield do thats about 45 t2 BPC's at 10 runs pr copy so thats 450 modules you can build at the time factor of 2 days .... so thats 3 days worth 450 t2 modules ( granted you need the build slot to build them ... but thats what your 2 other slot on your account can be used for ) Now a T2 BPO has a limit of 100 runs each module takes 2 hour and 15 minuttes to produce give or take depending on PE so 100 runs of a T2 BPO takes 8 days to produce Even if you had only 1 manufacturing char in 8 days and 8 hours which it takes on a t2 bpo you can still produce 300 units of you invention bpc in that time .... and belive me the ME on t2 bpos is not something you make money on except for the ship ones So you see it dosent matter at all that you have a BPO as the inventions can easily outway that .... so please stop whining It's all beacause t2 bpo owner is leaving ther rest of his slots idle . Right ?.
Lrrp Minmatar The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:46:00 - [29] Originally by: FalconHawk you don¦t need to buy datacores, just go to your research agent and get them for free -> more profit -> stop whining They are not "free" as they have a value. If you use 10 data cores that you could of sold for 300k and fail at your invention try...that is 3 mil isk you have lost as opposed to selling them. So make sure when you succeed in getting a t2 bpc invented, you add the cost of all those "free" datacores into the selling price of your t2 item.
Digiball Amarr Carbide Industries	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:49:00 - [30] im one of the lucky ones that have such a bpo... and trust me when i tell you it aint a money printing machine anymore... after invention came. it now SUCKS to have bpo`s... ofcause u dont have to invent stuff but thats about it... i sugest you invent and save up... i see often t2 bpo for sale... so its not like hard to optain such one! u can buy my ishtar bpo for say 100 bill.. convo me if interested.,,



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