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Mystafyre
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.07.16 08:50:00 -
[1]
It's been always a weird that Amarr fleet recon, Pilgrim has such high drone space and bandwitdth but the Gallente Arazu does have so poor.
CCP should really buff that in Arazu.
150 drone bay, 50 bandwitdth or even 75...
Opinnions?
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.07.16 08:52:00 -
[2]
Sure. Except then you'd have to make every single other ship in eve a tad stronger to compensate to still call it some sort of balance.
The arazu is a great ship, don't try to mess with it's awesomeness because of lore. Don't suggest single changes to a ship without considerin the impact it has on balance. Alter the lore to cause balance, not the balance to cause lore. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 997513
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Shereza
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Posted - 2009.07.16 09:17:00 -
[3]
Amarr recon ships have bonuses to modules that require high slots to use thereby dipping into the maximum potential rDPS output.
Furthermore CCP stated awhile back that in looking to balance Amarr drone boats versus Gallente drone boats Gallente ships would have higher bandwidths on a class per class basis while having smaller maximum drone bays. Compare the velator to the arbitrator and you'll see a rather solid example of this. For that matter the myrmidon is as well with its ability to toss out 75mb worth of drones and hold two waves of that size while the arbitrator can only toss out 50mb but can hold three waves, the same total bay size between the two ships despite the arbitrator being smaller and the myrmidon can toss out more drones (in terms of size) at once.
+10m3/mb to bump them up to 50/50 might not necessarily be a bad thing but as they aren't dedicated drone boats they shouldn't get the Bandwidth-x2 drone bay that the myrmidon and ishkur get, especially not as ships that aren't dedicated drone boats like the thorax and its T2 counterpart the deimos only get 50m3/mb.
I'm personally not a particularly big fan of "off-size" drone bays, especially not on gallente ships regardless of how "fitting" they are on the "drop an electromagnet into a scrap heap and pull out a ship" style Minmatar ships. As such and based on the fact that in terms of raw DPS alone the difference between 3 medium drones and 2 lights and five mediums isn't very significant on a ship without drone damage bonuses I don't see that such a minor boost would be a serious balance issue.
150m3 drone bay and/or 75mb bandwidth, however, is past ludicrous and verging on plaid. ____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
Mystafyre
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.07.16 11:56:00 -
[4]
Quote: Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per level. Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level Role Bonus: 80% reduction in liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation and 50% reduction in cynosural field duration. Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators
And 150 drone bay + 50 bandwidth.
vs
Quote: Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level Role Bonus: 80% reduction in liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation and 50% reduction in cynosural field duration. Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators
So 5% dmg bonus, 5% damp bonus and then tackling bonus.
Drone bay 40 and bandwidth 40...
Arazu is nice gang tackler, but that's bout it. You need blasters for damage since you can't but out full set of t2 hammerheads, with blasters you need to be next to target wich makes damps useless...
Rapier has the same 40/40.
Anyway, so if Rapier and Arazu shouldn't get more drone power, should the pilgrims dronebay get reduced alongside with the drone bonus?
Falcon in the other hand doesn't have anything.
Fleet Recons aren't in balance what comes to making some DPS...
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Sera Ryskin
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Posted - 2009.07.16 12:02:00 -
[5]
Learn the roles please.
The Arazu is a dedicated tackler/ewar ship, so its damage is pretty much irrelevant. It's best used with a mid-range (30-50km) dps ship or two, pinning down the target and damping it for the paper-thin Zealots/bombers/etc to kill it without any risk of return fire. While an increase to 50mb/50m3 would obviously be a boost, it's not one that would really help it in its primary role.
The Pilgrim is a solo gank ship, and therefore depends on its dps to be useful. While it's quite effective at sneaking up on a solo target and ganking it, it's a completely useless ship in a gang. While reducing its drone firepower might "make sense" to you, it would completely cripple the ship.
TL,DR: learn the roles of each ship. Whining about the Pilgrim's drone bay is like whining that the Arbitrator has better drones than a Thorax. ==========
Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
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Endo Dy
Enrave Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.07.16 12:07:00 -
[6]
Some quick EFT'ing:
[Arazu, 250mm rails] Internal Force Field Array I 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Warp Disruptor II Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Ancillary Current Router I Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hammerhead II x1 Hammerhead II x1 Hammerhead II x1 Hobgoblin II x1 Hobgoblin II x1 224 DPS with my skills. A Pilgrim does 233 with 5 Hammerhead II's in my case. Not much wrong with it imo.
[url=http://kb.etherealdawn.org/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=28211][/url] |
Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.07.16 12:11:00 -
[7]
while the amarr recons are rather solid direct combat ships, the gallente recons are ment to be support ships. unfortunately damps were nerfed rather bad last year and the ships now lack some magic.
the equivalent to the pilgrim and curse would be the ishtar, although it is not in the same ship class. ---- Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
TimMc
Gallente Brutal Deliverance
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:07:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Endo Dy Some quick EFT'ing:
[Arazu, 250mm rails] Internal Force Field Array I 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Warp Disruptor II Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Ancillary Current Router I Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hammerhead II x1 Hammerhead II x1 Hammerhead II x1 Hobgoblin II x1 Hobgoblin II x1 224 DPS with my skills. A Pilgrim does 233 with 5 Hammerhead II's in my case. Not much wrong with it imo.
Obvious EFT warrior because you fit damps. No one fits damps.
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Endo Dy
Enrave Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:23:00 -
[9]
Originally by: TimMc
Originally by: Endo Dy Some quick EFT'ing:
Obvious EFT warrior because you fit damps. No one fits damps.
Apart from the fact that the OP is about the DPS of the Arazu, damps are perfectly viable depending on circumstances. But go on and fit a shieldtank on it if u like...
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Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:25:00 -
[10]
Originally by: TimMc Obvious EFT warrior because you fit damps. No one fits damps.
This right here is why the arazu is broken. Nobody uses it for its primary ewar. It's usually used as a very expensive buffer-tanked tackler, and this shouldn't be its role. I don't mind the Lachesis being mainly a tackler with some DPS, but damps really need to be made more useful on the arazu.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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Terra Mikael
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:48:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Terra Mikael on 16/07/2009 13:48:56
Originally by: NoNah Sure. Except then you'd have to make every single other ship in eve a tad stronger to compensate to still call it some sort of balance.
The arazu is a great ship, don't try to mess with it's awesomeness because of lore. Don't suggest single changes to a ship without considerin the impact it has on balance. Alter the lore to cause balance, not the balance to cause lore.
lol. So what do you call a cruiser that zaps more cap that 2 heavy boosters per cycle and does more damage than a max skilled vexor?
Originally by: TimMc
Originally by: Endo Dy Some quick EFT'ing:
[Arazu, 250mm rails] Internal Force Field Array I 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Warp Disruptor II Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Ancillary Current Router I Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hammerhead II x1 Hammerhead II x1 Hammerhead II x1 Hobgoblin II x1 Hobgoblin II x1 224 DPS with my skills. A Pilgrim does 233 with 5 Hammerhead II's in my case. Not much wrong with it imo.
Obvious EFT warrior because you fit damps. No one fits damps.
and no faction point? wtf is the point, honestly? ________________________________
Originally by: Lone Gunman Yes overpowered would be giving a ship with the Covert ops cloak the ability to fire say..Torpedos, now that would be overpowered. But CCP would |
Endo Dy
Enrave Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.07.16 14:34:00 -
[12]
For the love of god i quickly made a fit to see the DPS a bit. I forgot how many one lining pro's where in here .
Final remark @ OP: drone/DPS wise Arazu is fine. That it has other issues is clear, yet comparing it to the Amarr recon's is comparing apples and oranges imo.
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LUH 3472
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Posted - 2009.07.16 14:46:00 -
[13]
Edited by: LUH 3472 on 16/07/2009 14:48:20 give arazu max 75m dronebay and 50m bandwith altough i find it actually ok as it is
aint no solo pwn mobiel ok
ps: i only fly gallente with some caldari
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.07.16 14:51:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Karentaki
Originally by: TimMc Obvious EFT warrior because you fit damps. No one fits damps.
This right here is why the arazu is broken. Nobody uses it for its primary ewar.
Weeeell… That entirely depends on what you define as "primary Ewar".
Are target painters the primary ewar on the Huginn/Rapier? Are tracking disruptors the primary ewar on the Curse/Pilgrim? In my (admittedly limited) experience, the former are more talked about as webbing ships and the latter as neuting ships. By the same token, the primary ewar of the Arazu/Lachesis would be scrams/disruptors, which is how they're often fitted.
That said, though, more effective damps would be fine by me… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Htrag
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2009.07.16 14:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: TimMc
Obvious EFT warrior because you fit damps. No one fits damps.
Noone fits damps? I fit damps.
I use the arazu and lachesis all the time for what its meant for... tackling and disabling a target from being able to lock at range. Its perfect.
As far as the drones go, I fit 8 light drones and light weapons specifically for chasing off tacklers or killing drones that have auto agroed. I dont care about DPS, I care about filling a specific role.
The gal recons are not solo ships, although some people do push the boundaries. In fact I killed a raven, drake, condor, and badger with an arazu in a single engagement, but it took about 40 minutes.
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Deaudlus
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Posted - 2009.07.16 15:41:00 -
[16]
The problem with the arazu isn't the arazu. It performs it's role well. The problem is that the role that it performs is very situtional. Brining a arazu on a op could prove useful given the circumstance. Bringing a rapier/curse/falcon will be useful in just about every circumstance.
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Footoo Rama
Gallente Caldari Illuminati
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Posted - 2009.07.16 19:37:00 -
[17]
I am a fan of the arazu, it can solo tackle better then any other recon ship, at the cost that it is a little gimped DPS at range. Nothing else can tackle from 40km and take 0 dmg... Now if it had a 150m3 drone bay it would be way over powered with 50 or 75mb bw.
But lets play with a 50mb bw. I warp in tackle 2x web and 1x disrupt, and drop sentries... then pepper with rails... I see 250 dps without using faction ammo. 75mb give you just over 300mb.
I agree a full set of hammerhead II's would be nice, but that yields about 287dps. other wise you are stuck with a 3x med and 2x small which yeilds about 267 dps. this is without drone dmg rigs
Currently I am working on an arazu that uses drone speed agumenters to cut on transit time and not having to leave drones when I have to warp out, when things go pear shaped. ------- "Because the Dominix is the Chuck Norris of Eve!" |
abrasive soap
Caldari Corporation 12345 Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.07.16 21:41:00 -
[18]
boost the myrmidon
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Shereza
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Posted - 2009.07.16 22:21:00 -
[19]
I'd rather have a full set of vespa ECM drones than a full set of T2 hammerheads...
Then again my favorite "pet" fitting for the Arazu looks something like: [Arazu, Blaster Arazu] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II
10MN Afterburner II Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Scan Resolution Dampening Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Scan Resolution Dampening Domination Stasis Webifier Warp Scrambler II 'Hypnos' Multispectral ECM I
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Inverted Signal Field Projector I Targeting System Subcontroller I
Vespa EC-600 x3 Hornet EC-300 x2
____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.07.16 22:34:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mystafyre
150 drone bay, 50 bandwitdth or even 75...
Opinnions?
Lol, are you serious?
While we're at it, can I have 125 bay/bandwidth for my rapier please? It needs a buff much more than the arazu.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.07.16 23:26:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Karentaki
Originally by: TimMc Obvious EFT warrior because you fit damps. No one fits damps.
This right here is why the arazu is broken. Nobody uses it for its primary ewar. It's usually used as a very expensive buffer-tanked tackler, and this shouldn't be its role. I don't mind the Lachesis being mainly a tackler with some DPS, but damps really need to be made more useful on the arazu.
Just because there's a lot of stupid EVE players, doesn't necessarily mean something's wrong.
Arazu can damp almost any ship (e.g. not recons, but basically everything else) to below it's warp disruptor range with one damp. And ... that's outside drone control range too, so you don't have to worry about drones. Sometimes that might not be enough, and you might actually have to use two module slots on the job.
Or maybe you could just go for ECM drones and scan res damping.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.07.17 00:10:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Terra Mikael Edited by: Terra Mikael on 16/07/2009 13:48:56
Originally by: NoNah Sure. Except then you'd have to make every single other ship in eve a tad stronger to compensate to still call it some sort of balance.
The arazu is a great ship, don't try to mess with it's awesomeness because of lore. Don't suggest single changes to a ship without considerin the impact it has on balance. Alter the lore to cause balance, not the balance to cause lore.
lol. So what do you call a cruiser that zaps more cap that 2 heavy boosters per cycle and does more damage than a max skilled vexor?
I call it paperthin and vulnerable as it has to work in web/scram range. And it doesn't deal more damage than a max skilled vexor, far from nor does it zap over 1600 cap per cycle, it zaps something like 1100 per cycle. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 290345
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McClan
Caldari The Nightcrawlers
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Posted - 2009.07.24 23:15:00 -
[23]
I agree the Arazu need to be able to fit 5 med drones. Its just not right that it can't.
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Nikolay Tesla
Minmatar Nomadic Angels
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Posted - 2009.07.25 00:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: McClan I agree the Arazu need to be able to fit 5 med drones. Its just not right that it can't.
Agree... It's really crappy drone boat now and it's GALLENTE!!
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Nikolay Tesla
Minmatar Nomadic Angels
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Posted - 2009.07.25 00:21:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Nikolay Tesla on 25/07/2009 00:21:30
Originally by: Endo Dy Some quick EFT'ing:
[Arazu, 250mm rails] Internal Force Field Array I 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Warp Disruptor II Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Ancillary Current Router I Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hammerhead II x1 Hammerhead II x1 Hammerhead II x1 Hobgoblin II x1 Hobgoblin II x1 224 DPS with my skills. A Pilgrim does 233 with 5 Hammerhead II's in my case. Not much wrong with it imo.
Why you ruin the ship even more with damps?
EDIT: Since the only usefull bonus in arazu is the point/scrambler bonus...
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Nikolay Tesla
Minmatar Nomadic Angels
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Posted - 2009.07.25 00:23:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Nikolay Tesla on 25/07/2009 00:23:14
Originally by: Sera Ryskin Learn the roles please.
TL,DR: learn the roles of each ship. Whining about the Pilgrim's drone bay is like whining that the Arbitrator has better drones than a Thorax.
Oh shut up will you? Gallente is all about drones and both of the recons are lacking drone dps..
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RavenPaine
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Posted - 2009.07.25 01:02:00 -
[27]
When a ship gives specific bonus to ,,,anything, its not ruined when you actually fit to use the bonus . Arazu with good skills behind the damping is much more of an asset than ...Arazu with 3 shield mods
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