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ChinChinneyChin
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.08.07 14:14:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Sharon Lynn
Originally by: ChinChinneyChin
if u dont care about profit, why do u stop undercutting when u get to 16m?
Why not sell an item u brought for 15m at 13 or 14m?
i suppose when u get down to 16m, then u will be ready to play the 0.01 game.
If u are only buying and selling to annoy other traders, u shud quit trading and do missions.
I stop at 16 to keep the profit for others low, i'm not playing that 0.01 game.
I won't sell for less then i bought because i don't see why i should.
I don't see why doing missions has anything to do with annoying other traders.
I see, so u do care about profit then.
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Vasundhara
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Posted - 2009.08.07 19:13:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Teras Menac
Originally by: jk scowling
Oh, is it that time again, another "ur not doinitrite!!!" 0.01 isk thread. All we need now is another one berating people for undercutting by 0.01 isk.
Fact is, people have different methods for trading, and if you don't have loads of time to sit changing orders aggressive undercutting can work.
Oh look it's another 'ur not doinitrite!!!' complaint reply about a topic they didn't even have to open.
Oh look it's another reply to a 'ur not doinitrite!!!' complaint reply about a topic he didn't even have to open that you didn't have to reply to that I felt compelled to reply to as an exercise in nested replies to replies of complaint replies regarding topics that have been replied to already many times in the past.
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Dasfry
Caldari
Demio's Corporation
101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.07 20:30:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Jolla Skyia
Here is the situation. You have item that sells at Jita for around 800k. Yet in my local trade hub, the "smart" traders have managed to get the prices up around 1,4mil and people still buy.
So we are talking almost 80 to 90% profits, if everyone plays ball and sticks with the .01 wars. Everyone gets some sales and we all make nice profits.. However, there is always 2 types of morons that enter the equation.
Number 1 is the guy that totally tries to kill the market by tossing the items at low ball Jita prices. This guy is easily dealt with buying out his inventory and saying thanks for bringing it to me. 
Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
So what do you do, with these kind of moronic traders? Buying them out might only encourage them to put more on the market. If you don't buy them out, it's sure someone else will try to under cut them and then the moron will drop his price another 100k until he kills the market price.
So what do you do?
I wonder who the real moron is?
***********
Military Tactics
Dasfry, CEO
Demio's Corporation
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Aethrwolf
Caldari
Home for Wayward Gamers
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Posted - 2009.08.08 03:57:00 -
[94]
I hate the .01 ISK games, so I'll deliberately undercut to just above mineral cost if its mission loot. Buy orders, on the other hand, I set buy orders only when I need mins for a big project, so when someone starts the .01 isk **** on them I will make a couple of price jumps to discourage them, and if it continues I'll run right up to just above mineral cost on reprocessables. I have one person right now I'm pricing against who has activity suspiciously like a macro, so I took an isk hit just to run some of my buy orders up to .01 ISK under the MOST unprofitable sell orders in the area just to see what happens. I will continue to hold those orders there until either the other guy goes away, or he contacts me to ask wtf I'm doing. Since I've long since realized he knows who's doing it. If I get annoyed enough, I'll find every order that toon has and slaughter all his market orders in my area.. training an alt's market skills atm so I know I'll have enough available orders for it.
Absolutely everything is subjective. |
Doomed Predator
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.08.08 17:32:00 -
[95]
When i started trading I was like the OP,only for buy orders. Thankfuly I quickly found out that those ''idiot traders'' were stimulating the market so they could have 100k profit on 100 items a day and not500k profits on 2 items a day.
The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again |
Mr Costington
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Posted - 2009.08.10 05:50:00 -
[96]
The 'stupid' traders are the ones who are selling 20000 of an item when I'm selling five, and drop their price from a 50% profit to a 25% profit to undercut me. You could buy me out instead and still make a profit off of my stuff at your current selling price.
Essentially, I'm giving 50% of my profit to you so I don't have to play the 0.01isk game. If you're already 0.01 isking, then by buying my stuff you're getting FREE MONEY. By undercutting, you cost us both money.
That being said, a lot of people WANT to crash the price of certain items. How often do you look at the value of reprocessed minerals or finished products (in the case of components)? Are you blindly 'buying low and selling high'?
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Veebring Greetings
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Posted - 2009.08.10 15:08:00 -
[97]
The $tupid traders who sell low do not sell any more than the others. They are only too lazy to play the market game properly and accept lower returns for less effort.
One counter for independent traders is to be soft and move on to some other goods that are not being actively spoilt. Or you can also have the noobs killed until they understand, thats what tends to happen with larger outlets
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Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.08.10 17:51:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Veebring Greetings
The $tupid traders who sell low do not sell any more than the others. They are only too lazy to play the market game properly and accept lower returns for less effort.
One counter for independent traders is to be soft and move on to some other goods that are not being actively spoilt. Or you can also have the noobs killed until they understand, thats what tends to happen with larger outlets
I see what you did there. You used an $ instead of an s, that's really clever!
I also tried to kill noob's in stations once, it was mouchos funos. The station guns are quite a harrowing experience.
2/10
-Jin Nib
Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since:
2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Kyra Felann
Gallente
Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2009.08.10 18:28:00 -
[99]
So for you, the only two options are:
1) Don't compete and instead share, which is very un-Eve-like, IMO.
2) Actually compete and be called a moron.
I thought the market was about competition, not "sharing". Silly me.
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Veebring Greetings
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Posted - 2009.08.11 12:45:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Kyra Felann
So for you, the only two options are:
1) Don't compete and instead share, which is very un-Eve-like, IMO.
2) Actually compete and be called a moron.
I thought the market was about competition, not "sharing". Silly me.
Yep you're right about the silly thing only here 
ad 1 - newbs need to expand their horizons. Some of the best corps and alliances practice various levels of eve-communism.
ad 2 - a race to the bottom is not competition, it's ruinous. Instead you should be competing to get your wallet well filled.
Some players really have a hard time understanding even the basics.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.08.11 13:31:00 -
[101]
So to recap everyone
If I buy Item A at X price and sell it for X+Y, its cool
If I buy Item A at X price and sell it for X+Y(.5) I'm a moron
...I'm still failing to see the issue here. I still made a profit |
Desperdiciable
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Posted - 2009.08.11 13:53:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Desperdiciable on 11/08/2009 13:53:44
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
So to recap everyone
If I buy Item A at X price and sell it for X+Y, its cool
If I buy Item A at X price and sell it for X+Y(.5) I'm a moron
...I'm still failing to see the issue here. I still made a profit
The problem is you're decreasing the obsessive traders' profits by not being equally obsessive yourself (for shame!). Look:
Originally by: Veebring Greetings
ad 2 - a race to the bottom is not competition, it's ruinous. Instead you should be competing to get your wallet well filled.
Some players really have a hard time understanding even the basics.
See, some players have a hard time understanding that without being an obsessive trader, we can still make billions of iskies while racing to the bottom, with very, very little effort, whereas the obsessive types will be 0.01-isking their orders for hours on end while we "stupid" ones will be passively making billions while pew-pewing with our other mains and actually enjoying the game.
Really, the truly "stupid" one are the ones that don't understand the time value of money. (In RL, this probably applies to lots of us who make a RL salary in GTC's that's greater than we make in in-game trading.)
Edit: isk, not a different currency.
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Veebring Greetings
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Posted - 2009.08.11 17:09:00 -
[103]
Well, as I said before. Way too little understanding of market basics and too little effort to really exploit the profit margins.
And then they always come crying big bear tears when people don't think that "minerals are free" or "gtc selling makes me a leet pvp dood" 
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Jake Bronson
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.11 17:36:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Jolla Skyia
Here is the situation. You have item that sells at Jita for around 800k. Yet in my local trade hub, the "smart" traders have managed to get the prices up around 1,4mil and people still buy.
So we are talking almost 80 to 90% profits, if everyone plays ball and sticks with the .01 wars. Everyone gets some sales and we all make nice profits.. However, there is always 2 types of morons that enter the equation.
Number 1 is the guy that totally tries to kill the market by tossing the items at low ball Jita prices. This guy is easily dealt with buying out his inventory and saying thanks for bringing it to me.
Number 2 moron is the real problem. These are the guys that will drop their price by 100k every time you under cut them. These are the idiots that somehow think they can crash the price and somehow win. In reality the only thing they do is kill the profits that everyone could have shared in.
So what do you do, with these kind of moronic traders? Buying them out might only encourage them to put more on the market. If you don't buy them out, it's sure someone else will try to under cut them and then the moron will drop his price another 100k until he kills the market price.
So what do you do?
Though I'm very new to this game (5 days), I can say a few things about this topic.
1) The seller does not care. Period. Their main goal is to dump product as fast as possible. They don't "play" the market at the current location and care less what impacts it has on those that do.
2) Assuming someone is a moron for doing unthinkable things in your book... Don't be so quick to judge. I suppose you've never heard of Nathan Rothschild and Waterloo? Google it.
Originally by: Akita T
Undercutting others by a huge percentage or amount until the others just give up and leave or buy you out is a perfectly legitimate tactic for the trader that doesn't have the time to play the 0.01 dance.
From his viewpoint, a minimal margin on a large volume is better than a big margin on next to no volume at all.
Other times, these people are not actually selling, they ARE BUYING.
They want you to follow them down, so THEY can buy YOU out cheaply.
And yet again another time, you're just facing somebody who just wants to get rid of his inventory, and considers the buy order price far too low.
Sounds to me like none of the above is stupid at all - if they WOULD be stupid you would have a very fast and very clear answer to this "problem".
^ This is the correct analogy.
In every other MMO I've played I did this all the time. Constantly disrupting the market and letting it climb back up. I make a KILLING doing it too. How? I "let" the prices climb, then DUMP loads of product on the market and watch sellers buy HUGE quantities of my product to keep the market from crashing... eventually it does. THEY are stuck with excess inventory and spend the next while offloading it (for small margins).
In the meantime, I am stockpiling product... so I can rinse and repeat.
In response to the OP's complaint... You think a game ecomony should be stable, smooth, no disruptions? Count your blessings it is as smooth as it is. Real world markets are dog eat dog. You don't see such behavior in the real world market simple because it is too fragile. Traders know the limits and they push them EVERY DAY. Nathan Rothschild, as evil as he was, taught us that valuable lesson.
Don't get mad at other "morons" just because they are eatting into your profits in ways in which you do not agree with. 
- nOOb alert - |
Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2009.08.11 17:49:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Tesal
I also deleted the decimel point once when selling stuff, and it left me traumatized, so I avoid them usually. I think I am less error prone when I use nicely rounded numbers.
It doesn't happen very often, but I love it when people misplace those decimal points... Nothing like putting up a buy order at 10 or 100 times the intended price, or a sell order similarly low.
This is exactly why I rarely deal with the decimal point myself when putting up a new order. The extra few isk isn't worth the risk of a misplaced decimal. When modifying orders and I want to change the price by a few isk I'll use the mousewheel, though.
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Stela'Artois
Capital Ventures Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.08.11 18:56:00 -
[106]
I personally dont mind the .01 isk game, or undercutting or any of that stuff. In EvE, trading and playing the markets is just as much PvP as fighting ship on ship...and with some people the gains/losses are far higher.
Whats the difference in me blowing up your shiney new BS and costing you 100mil in replacement or me undercutting you by .01 and getting that next big order that gets me 100mil in profits when you should have had 101 mil in profits? Either way, I cost you time and money.
I will admit though, I am irritated by people who cut the price by odd amounts, such as taking something down to the next whole number...i.e. 1129.98 being reduced to 1120.00 or something. At least the .01 game retains the margins better and gives everyone at least a fair shake (though fair is irrelevant, it is still nice to experience).
But oh how I love when people try to dump product and sell it for 10-20% less...its a darn quick way to get new inventory!
Last note...all traders have to realize that there is a bigger fish out there somewhere and at any given time they could crash any market you are trying to fiddle with and make your day rough. The good news is, to someone else, >you< are that big fish!
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Red Raider
Caldari
Airbourne Demons
DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2009.08.11 18:56:00 -
[107]
I do it to avoid the .01 isk war, to cut your profits, to right the market value against your price fixing, and to move my goods fast.
I must be all kinds of numbers.
Of course I deal in goods that cost in the hundreds of millions so I probably don't **** off a small fry like yourself. 
A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out. |
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