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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.29 19:40:00 -
[1]
You seem pretty angry about something. I hope it works out for you.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.29 20:59:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Anslo It doesn't matter, carebears are taking over now, look at most of the recent expansions, all PvE related, not pvp. PvE is taking over, pvp is getting less and less popular. And CCP will continue to cater to carebears, wanna know why? Cash. That's what it comes down to, cold, hard, cash. The majority of players are carebears, and tha majority is the biggest bulk profit for CCP. Bottom line business sense wise, CCP will cater to the bulk, and the bulk are carebears. Get used to it, your "ballscreaming" as OP put it will do you no good. Carebears decide what happens, not pvpers. Get over it :)
Confirming that adding 2500 new systems that are not only 0.0 but have delayed local is "catering for the carebear".
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.30 08:30:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Azirapheal WH is primarilly pve content, not that i dont trawl it in my pilgrim picking off people here and there...
"PvE" != "carebear"
Anyone who mines or rats in a place with no local might be PvEing, but they're no carebear.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.31 18:27:00 -
[4]
Originally by: BergePanzer
Originally by: Zartanic Edited by: Zartanic on 31/07/2009 17:39:00 Edited by: Zartanic on 31/07/2009 17:38:46 The fact you mixing up real life and a game is the reason why so many get upset over pixels. Really, there are far more important things for me than someone being abusive or losing a ship in EVE. If I don't like it I choose another game. As it is I laugh and move on, its all part of the fun in a perverse way.
This game is known for what it is, its not hidden, and if anyone bothered to spend 5 minutes researching it they would know. EVE is famous for its nasty players and brutal game play, its why so many of us chose the game as so many other MMORPG's are patronising rubbish that spoon feeds the players like babies. Unless someone hides under a rock they would know that so why the hell complain?
I personally think grieving type activity is sad but if that's what someone needs to do to get fun then why should I interfere if it does not affect me? And it will only affect me if I let it or play unprepared.
The strength of EVE is there are numerous ways to avoid being screwed over, if someone is too stupid or lazy to take those precautions then they are in the wrong game or they just have to suck it up. If someone gives them abuse, stick them on block, done. If someone screws you over learn from it, work out where you went wrong and realise all actions have consequences, including errors.
If all this was stopped the game would die, no doubt about that. You can't give the freedom needed to make this game what it is and at the same time expect it all to be nicey nicey.
So I've been screwed over by an number of Suicide Ganks transporting commocities in an Industrial ship in high sec. Could you suggest how I should learn from this error?
Stop putting hi-value items in slow, vulnerable ships.
Industrials should be used for low value density bulk goods. DSTs are significantly harder to gank, even with a decent cargo space.
There are also various clever tricks you can use to mitigate your risk even with industrials... (eg: putting shield extenders in those unused mids, to name but the most trivially obvious)
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.01 21:56:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind victim
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.01 23:12:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Token Prophets So essentially this is a "mans" game?
Paging mazillu to this thread
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.02 07:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer the most snarky EvE statement of the ganksters is:
"Do your low sec missions in a group".
That means:
Get divorced. Give up your kids. Quit your job. Live in mom's basement. And find other people like you and form a corp with them.
THEN you can survive low sec and be l33t. You win.
Uh.. maybe not
You played WoW a lot, didn't you?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.06 20:45:00 -
[8]
Perhaps the basic problem here is that a lot of people are used to games where you can only win, more or less.
Playing one where you can lose, quickly, thoroughly and definitely, comes as something of a culture-shock.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.08 11:19:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Malcanis on 08/08/2009 11:21:14
Originally by: Ezevector
Quote:
I just didn't expect it to be *stupidly* dangerous.
EvE is only dangerous if you're stupid.
Sorry to sound all elitist an [PRO] and all that, but it's true.
Lo-sec is very easy to move through, and if you're prepared to spend a little more time and attention than in hi-sec, then only the rawest bad luck, or external factors (cat vs keyboard, crappy ISK, etc) will see you die.
0.0 is much the same tbh.
In short: if you lose a ship, there's a 95% chance it was your own stupid fault, and easily avoidable. This certainly applies to my losses. Pretty much the only exception is big fleet fights.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.12 13:48:00 -
[10]
My God... it's full of sweepeing generalisations!
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.12 14:50:00 -
[11]
Originally by: EpicFailTroll
A lot of words to say that you dont like some of the people that play eve or the way they play it.
A lot of words to say such a simple thing.
So cut to the chase: What do you want? Are you expecting someone else to do something about it (and if so who), or are you going to do something about it yourself (and if so, what)?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.13 14:05:00 -
[12]
Originally by: EpicFailTroll
Originally by: baltec1
Why should you benefit from the work of others? It is their hard won area of space and it is perfectly acceptable that they will want to keep those assets for themselves.
There is an absolute lack of incentives to police lowsec, which leads to no people policing it. Lack of PVP incentives i have to add. Some corps have carved out places in lowsec and usually end up siding with gankbears, since they frown upon newcomers taking the opportunity of reaping the benefices of their hardwork. PvE incentives are there but there are no reasons at all to share your isk-earning niche with others. So there is no reason to police lanes once you're set.
I personally don't care much about the isk. What i care about is a fun and emulative atmosphere in an online game, which people play to have fun and not suffer the same passive-aggressive garbage they do in everyday life, but becoming ganking since there are no repercussions for ingame douchebaggery. This is why there needs to be some kind of pvp incentive to police the lanes
Pretty much the point of EvE is the freedom to do what you want. You're asking (I presume) CCP to enforce penalties on people on people you dont like. To me, this would put you below the "douchebags" who at least have the gumption to do it themselves.
You ask why there are "no repercussions". Because, while CCP make the rules, they dont make the laws (outside of hi-sec). Repercussions for things you dont like are down to you to provide.
If, as you state, those repercussions seem insufficient to you, there are several possible causes
(1) You have an unrealistic idea of how severe those repercussions should be.
(2) There are too many people who want to be "douchebags" and not enough people who care about stopping them.
(3) Not everyone you think of as a "douchebag" is actually engaging in douchebaggery. As othwers have pointed out, there are numerous perfectly good reasons to shoot at another player even if he is in a ship that is incapable of doing any immediate harm.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.13 14:20:00 -
[13]
Originally by: EpicFailTroll
Let me state this again for the 4th time: this is a game. In a game, there is a tacit consent that everybody is to have fun together, or 'play nice' -common decency once again-.
Well clearly there is no such consent. You might argue that there should be, or that EvE would be better if there was, but it's flying in the face of the obvious facts to assert that any such consensus exists.
It is in fact your personal view of how a game should be.
Personally I myself dont engage in much of what you term "douchebaggery", although I will certainly attempt to kill a noob ship or shuttle if I encounter one outside hi-sec because, bluntly, you never know who's flying it or what's in it. But I'm perfectly happy for there to be douchebags in the game. Unlike you, I get considerable satisfaction from outwitting an entire gang of heavily armed killers when I'm in a lowly shuttle or frigate or whatever. It's fun!
I've said it before: there are two types of people in EvE:
Those who complain about how difficult and dangerous things are
Thos who rise to the challenge.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.13 18:59:00 -
[14]
Wait I just realised I wasted my time
Oh yeah well whatever. Have fun.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.13 19:21:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Bazuka
Originally by: Traidor Disloyal
Same crap, different year.
Except this year many things are different.
First some facts: Eve is a niche game - check It has retained a mediocre number of subs over the years but enough to pay for further development and support of the game (not enough for decent customer service though).- check Has never been tested (yet) by worthy competition in the space game genre - check. Has retained a steady (allthough small for MMO standards) increase in sub numbers over the years - check. It`s a pure PVP game - ummm no. According to CCP own study (don`t ask for link or "evidence" go look for it yourself I could care less if YOU belive it or not, it`s a fact), 50% of players have never been to 0.0 and only about 20% of players live in 0.0.
Now, my take on the few reasons why I see more people online now then 3 years ago when i started. -The highest jump in players online in peak hours and weekends (from ~30 to ~40K) happend when CCP made it possible to legaly pay for your sub with ISK. Many players with shiatload of ISK started opening new accounts (incliding me, I have 4). - Aggressive advertisiement, and I mean HARDCORE, there is EVE ad on every single game site, large or small. The way I see it, the GTC for ISK change made them money but it also made EVE heavily dependant on new players (hence the trials and the aggressive ad campaigns). Why? Because only the newbies (and some extremely lazy "pirates") spend real $$ for ISK and by that supporting mine and so many other`s alt accounts. Once I tasted the sweetness of free MMO gaming on 4 accounts I never go back. If the game runs out of newbies that put up GTCs for sale in Jita I will have to drop 3 and maybe all of my accounts, because there is no way in hell I`m paying 60 bucks a month for this mediocre game. So, it`s in everyone interest, mine, yours, and especially CCPs that players like OP stay in game, and stay happy. They are much more important to this game then some sociopath pimpleface griefing the OP just because he can or just because "His mum wuz yelling at him earlier today so he is very very angry" which are minority in this game but still menage to chase away many new players.` This should be alarming to CCP and it warrants a game mechanics change for low sec or even more core changes. It has nothing to do with "dumbing down" the game, you PVP kiddies have become too paranoid from looking over your shoulders and clicking dir scaners in lowsec/0.0. Chill, you`ll still have your "hardcore" PVP. Nobody would miss the douchebags really.
There is another more real danger for EVE. For the first time in years EVE will be challenged by 3 brand new space MMOs ...soon. Jumpgate Evolution, Dark prophecy and the highest profile of them.. STAR TREK ONLINE baby..yeah.. All of them are expected to hit Beta within next 3-6 months. All of them have both non and concensual PVP and in the case of Star Trek, awesome PVE and RP, its STAR TREK ffs. This means that thousands of bored carebears and annoyed newbies will go check some or all of these games out. So.. in few months..all of you forum warrior kiddies that keep defending douchebaggery in EVE think about this while you are scratching your head wondering where tf everyone is? You`ll be much smarter to support and help players like OP instead of typing nonesense on forums.
To many to pull out individually so let me just say:
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.13 21:58:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Bazuka Edited by: Bazuka on 13/08/2009 19:57:40
Originally by: Irongut EVE is a PVP game. If you don't like that you should go play something else because EVE is not for you. CCP are perfectly happy with this because it is how they designed the game.
Really? PVP game you say? Care to share your PVP experience with us? How much (in %) of your ingame time you spend pew-pewing at someone`s spaceship? Be honest.
PS: Funny how in this "PVP" game the most talked and praised ingame skill is the ability to avoid it.
PS: no it isn't. It's just that the ability to avoid it (which by the way is really very easy, not the "most praised") is so very easy that the people who complain about not being able to do so are regarded as either dishonest or deliberately ignorant. It's roughly on a par with trying to deal with a pedestrian who claims that cars are "overpowered" and that drivers are "griefers". Drivers respond with advice like "walk on the sidewalk" or "look both ways before you cross" or "use a crossing point" or even "get a car" and get called "elitest ganking douchebags" for their pains.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.13 22:24:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Malcanis on 13/08/2009 22:24:47
Originally by: Bazuka
EVE is just a mediocre crap that is totally opposite of a good game, as in.. boring and long until you learn all of the mechanics and features but lol easy to master.
I guess I missed the part where you explain why you still play it, then. Are you a sort of missionary, maintaining your sub to help save the noobships of trial players?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.15 06:03:00 -
[18]
In essence you want to change PvP from being valuable and consequential to commonplace and meaningless. Basically you want to trivialise it.
I'm sure you'll write yet another 400-word post explaining how fanastically stupid I am for so utterly misinterpreting the sheer genius of your idea, but that's the plain truth of it.
You want to make just about the only game where it's possible to lose in any remotely meaningful way into yet another trivial, shallow spectacle. I seem to recall that Steam has Il-2 Sturmovik available at some insanely low price. Go play that. It's all PvP all the time multiplayer, has direct control, is as realistic as a multiplayer online game could reasonably hope to be and is just a damb good game. It is, in essence, what you're describing how you want EvE to be.
You know what would be cool? If CCP suddenyl said "hai guys, sorry for blue-balling you for 4 years on atmospheric flight, we've licensed the Il-2 engine, reskinned it and made it look all EvEy and stuff, now get in your fighter and go fight in The Skies Of LuminaireÖ!" Charge us ú9.99 for the game plus an extra ú2/month on top of an existing EvE sub, and let people have at it in a permanent, ongoing, consequenceless air battle. Lose your fighter? You get another one straight away. Just launch from the carrier or whatever and get back in there, airman! That would be awesome fun, I'd give them my money for it.
But turning EvE into that? No. No thank you. What a huge retrogression that would be. What a terrible loss.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.15 14:50:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Gsptlsnz Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 15/08/2009 07:41:21 Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 15/08/2009 07:39:54
Originally by: Malcanis In essence you want to change PvP from being valuable and consequential to commonplace and meaningless. Basically you want to trivialise it. <....> You want to make just about the only game where it's possible to lose in any remotely meaningful way into yet another trivial, shallow spectacle. <....>
I see this kind of claim in the foums and channels a lot. To paraphrase: "An important characteristic of EvE PvP (outside of wars for 0.0 Sov) is that losing a fight matters".
I don't believe this is generally true.
Players work hard to reduce their level of PvP risk. You can estimate it by calculating the cost of loss in "ISK Grinding Minutes" x probability of loss. I wonder how those numbers would work out for the specialist gankers who patrol the 0.4 space that L1 mission agents send unwary rookies into? I wonder how it works out for members of corps which provide free ships?
If you can get it to 5-10 minutes, the average cost of PvP is about the same as WoW.
Note that I'm not criticizing the game here. The majority of EvE players like the rules which favour unbalanced PvP engagements, so in EvE, ganking is good behavior.
But a player with a ship/implants costing 40 minutes of grinding ISK, in an engagement with a 5% chance of losing, pays an everage of 2 minutes of playing time per engagement. The "hard core" PvPers in EvE are the rookies who willingly enter lowsec with an hour or two of grinding on the line.
The ships I usually fly cost me about... hmmm, about 6-8 hours. The attitude I take is that I consider the ship lost when I undock. If I get it back, it's a bonus. As far as "fair and balanced" engagements go, all fights in EvE are fair in the same way that all hands in a game of poker are fair; everyone gets the same opportunity to play by the same rules. Sometimes you get 3 kings, sometimes you only get a pair of treys. 3 kings will always beat those treys, but that doesn't make the game unfair. And of course if you try to tell a poker player that there's no skills involved... heh, try telling one that.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.15 17:33:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Gsptlsnz Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 15/08/2009 15:25:59
Originally by: Malcanis
The ships I usually fly cost me about... hmmm, about 6-8 hours. The attitude I take is that I consider the ship lost when I undock. If I get it back, it's a bonus.
How frequently do you lose a 6-8 hour ship to PvP?
Not as often as I used to
Perhaps I'm flattering myself that personal skill and experience has some minor influence on the results. I'd be the last to deny that skillpoints help some. But really I've only very rarely felt the need to make adverse comments in local to the people I was shooting at, regardless of who won or lost. One notable recent exception was some guy who'd been in Tri for all of 12 days and felt the need to call my alliance "NC Nap monkey noobs" in local. Only a saint could have resisted the temptation to post the killmail in local after he warped straight into our HIC camp, and I for sure am no saint. (sowwy )
Anyway I guess what I'm saying is that the "antis" in this thread, including the OP, are at least as guilty of making abusive generalisations as the gankbears that they accuse. Most of the good PvPers I know are genuinely nice people. Perhaps I'm wearing rose-tinted lenses because I prefer not to hang around people who aren't nice (or at least amusing), but truly in my experience the better the PvPer, the better the person. The worst, most vitriolic racist, bigoted, abusive, threatening smack seems to almost always come from the people who consider themselves apart from and above "stupid teenage basement-dwelling child-abused, child-****-watching, bullied at school gankers".
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.15 18:38:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Bazuka Edited by: Bazuka on 15/08/2009 18:03:20
I do play poker, live as well online. Go to your local poker room and start berating the dealers and players and tell me how long it will take until you are sent home.
I agree. Tell that to the OP.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.15 18:52:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Pulivin Motic THIS IS GAME
Please dont post again until you have an original thought of your own.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.15 19:03:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Urgg Boolean This seems like a goofd place to ask if EVE is a niche game, or if it is simply unpopular. Even if I round up the numbers, the EVE client base is ~ 0.01% of Wow.
Wow has what? 11 million subs, and they count everyone who has ever had even a trial account, whilst CCP only count active, subscribed accounts. Let's say WoW actually has 7.5M paying accounts.
That puts EvE (~350k+) at around 5% of WoW's subs.
But comparing to WoW's numbers is like saying a local restaurant chain is a failure because it doesn't sell as many meals as McDonalds. Duh! Who does?
Subwise, EvE is doing pretty nicely. Exclude WoW and EvE is in the top tier. Include WoW, and horrible carebear games are far, far behind.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.16 17:25:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Gsptlsnz
The Real Gamer (10%); Yes, they certainly exist in EvE - there are many gamers, and many nice people. They've made it to 0.0 space and enjoy the game there. They're in boring Highsec because they're training an alt - perhaps to make ISK forthem, perhaps as a scout, perhaps to sell. Their advice is consistent - forget about other kinds of PvP and look for a potentialy enjoyable path to 0.0. Join a training corp that can get you into 0.0 space. Almost everyone suggests a corp named "EvE University"; a few have suggested "Agony Unleashed". As tactical guidance they link the jumpClone corp, "Estel Arador Corp Services".
So those seem to be the choices: A. Stay in Highsec and play EvE as a PvE game (chosen by 90% of EvE players). B. Be a victim (willing or unwilling, depending on your personal perspective) C. Set aside any thought of directing your own play, in exchange for an efficient (and probably enjoyable) directed path to 0.0.
It sounds like you're interpreting "go join Agony and take a few of their courses" as "Set aside any thought of directing your own play" but that is IMO misguided. If you're going to a teacher to learn from them, then inherently they're going to be telling you what to do a lot of the time. But, apart from the fact that you wont be 'in class' every second you're in Agony - and therefore free to do as you please much of the time, you are directing your play by choosing to take the courses. You're setting a goal (pass courses) and following it through. I dont see why this would be unattractive to you
Seriously, the PvPers you respect consistently give you the same advice. And it's good advice. Follow it, tbh.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.16 20:07:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Belrend Coregaul Yeah. Learning curve here is tremendous. And everyone who isn't a veteran get's flamed.
This is such a wonderful game.
Try looking through every forum with a newbie complaint. First thing: Flame. Second thing: Trolled. Third thing: laughed at.
A few decent people will reply. But everyone else bashes the player which easily results in the loss of more people to shoot at down the road.
Wish the so called "funny guys" would grow up and live decently. Want to go by the "It's a game!" theory, then go play a FPS or a singleplayer with save-spots.
This community is more and more frustrating the longer I stay in this game.
Yeah, actually no. Special Snowflakes who turn up with whiny tear-filled complaints, who think that after 5 days play, their :AWESOME IDEA FOR A PVP FLAG: and :CCP BAN ALL MEAN OLE GRIEFERS: will "save EvE" (because if they're not happy then EvE must be dooooooooooomed, right?) get flamed. Deservedly.
About one a week or so a newb will turn up, recount that $BAD_THING happened, but that he's OK, he just wants to know how to prevent it happening again / do it himself. Instead of blaming everyone but himself, he asks for advice and information.
That newb tends to get smothered with ♥love♥, good advice and sometimes material help.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.17 08:20:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Bazuka
Originally by: Malcanis
Yeah, actually no. Special Snowflakes who turn up with whiny tear-filled complaints, who think that after 5 days play, their :AWESOME IDEA FOR A PVP FLAG: and :CCP BAN ALL MEAN OLE GRIEFERS: will "save EvE" (because if they're not happy then EvE must be dooooooooooomed, right?) get flamed. Deservedly.
Sorta, actually no. Every single post that criticize "your" special snowflake of a game (in MY view just a mediocre game) gets flamed. I understand why it`s happening though. It`s an addict reacting aggressively when someone criticize his addiction. It`s like saying to a crack junky "Crack is bad Dawg.. we should do something about it". Good luck makeing him accept it. And of course CCP`s decisions wont be affected by the arguments in the posts anyway since in this analogy they are the "crack dealers". Flamers dont understand this and believe that if too many people criticize "their" game CCP will change some "hardcore" features and strip the game of it`s "special snowflake-hardcore-not for everyone" label. And this label only excist in the flamers mind btw, it`s an illusion they choose to believe that makes them feel "special".
I wonder if you realise that you're talking to someone who has been savagely critical of several major aspects of EvE and decisions that CCP have made? In fact I doubt you could find a single person on this forum who wouldn't criticise some aspect of the game. Here's my short list:
-Hi-sec level 4 missions -The way missions are structured in general -Terrible mission/belt rats -Meta 0 rat loot -POS/Sov mechanics -:The UI: -Aggression mechanics (logoffski)* -THE GODAWFUL CORP MANAGEMENT INTERFACE PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP THE TORMENT -Lag is still a problem in low-sec -lolminmatar (the BS anyway) -lollargeprojectiles -lolrockets -Faction frigates & cruisers are almost all terrible (split weapon bonuses, eccentric fittings, hallucinatorily overpriced) also the Rattlesnake -Local needs to be reformed as a method of communcation not a free instant unavoidable intel tool, and replaced with some intel tool/set of tools that requires a little player skill and investment and is possibly avoidable. -Not enough NPC 0.0 space
~and many, many more.
What do you notice as different between my criticisms and the ones I had Special Snowflake make?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.17 08:36:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Bazuka
Originally by: Malcanis
About one a week or so a newb will turn up, recount that $BAD_THING happened, but that he's OK, he just wants to know how to prevent it happening again / do it himself. Instead of blaming everyone but himself, he asks for advice and information. That newb tends to get smothered with ♥love♥, good advice and sometimes material help.
This second part of your post especially the word I made bold touches on some much more disturbing and seriosly mentaly unhealthy EVE mantra but I wont even go there because it would make this thread 100 pages long. I`ll just leave it to rest...for now.
Why? Ship loss is almost always at least partly because the loser did one or several things wrong. This is certainly the case for me. I dont lose as many ships as I used to because (1) I know techniques to avoid losing them and (2) I have experience in choosing which to apply and when. Sometimes I'm tired or in a hurry or drunk or just plain careless and wham! I lose a ship to a gatecamp just as inevitably as a day 1 newb wondering why people are always telling him to check out Rancer. Doesn't stop it being my fault.
Actually it's more my fault because I should know better, and I do generally deserve smack for losing my ship. But that still doesn't change the fact that the newb did it wrong. The newb doesn't deserve smack for doing it wrong, but if he declines to accept that he died because he did it wrong, and then posts ill-informed, whiny :rage: in local/on forums/on his blog rather than spend 1/10th the effort to find out what he did wrong and how to do it right...
...then yeah. Flames
In short:
Effort + willingness to learn + accepting challenge = forum ♥love♥
Unwilling to make an effort + rude rejection of advice + demanding the game be made safer/easier/sharded = forum fire
I dont see how I can make this plainer.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.17 08:42:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Gsptlsnz Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 17/08/2009 08:22:31
Originally by: Mistress Jasmine This is Eve and people DIE ... wow thats news
This is another example of players believeing their own propaganda. I know "everybody says it", but dying is important in real life because it can only happen once. If players only got one chance to die in EvE they would be considerably more polite.
If you lose a fight in EvE you lose resources equivalent to some amount of ISK grinding time. The "cost" of an engagement is the time it would take to replace lost resources times the probablility of losing. My impression is that in EvE this "cost per PvP engagement" is typically rather low. Perhaps 10 or 15 minutes, if that.
In your early days as a new player, this is probably more true, and it is as it should be. The balance to your inexperience and your less capable ships is that the loss is pretty trivial. "time cost" is the basic reason why older players advise newer ones not to fly the biggest ship they can just because they can undock it.
I can assure you that as you grow into the game and start flying more :shiny: toys, that your losses will cost you a great deal more than 15 minutes.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.17 17:44:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Gsptlsnz Malcanis, Capt Branko: I can see you feel that EvE players do in fact take risks when they PvP. I can't disprove it. But I don't believe it either.
It's not the price of the ship - it's the price adjusted for the risk it will be lost.
If your Corp replaces the ship it cost you nothing. If that 10B ship only comes out when you judge there's one chance in 1000 it will be destroyed, you're paying only 10 million ISK (12 minutes? 5?) for the trip.
M alliance does have a partial ship replacement program; things like dictors and HICs get replaced because they're so very useful and also vulnerable. I have never had occasion to claim a ship replacement. Also, replacing the ship is all very well, but the cost of a trimarked T2-fit RR geddon is something like: ship, 55M, rigs 50M, modules & ammo 50M. I have flown a BS on 5 alliance ops and lost one, for an average loss to me of ~31M, ie: 1 hour missioning or 2 hours ratting.
On the other hand, the loss rate of my Zealots is rather lower, maybe 1:10 or 1:12... But then the whole point of a HAC is that it is more survivable than a BS. But even then the whole HAC fleet can be wiped out in a second by a well-placed doomsday (there are over 250+ active titans, which is about 1 for every 15 0.0 systems....) - how would you like to calculate the risk of that?
In any case, where are you going with this argument that perceived risk is lower than actual risk? That's a very commonplace observation. The risk factor in eve drops off considerably as you learn what you are doing and as you get to fly with people who have also learned. What of it?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.18 08:54:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Bazuka Edited by: Bazuka on 18/08/2009 08:20:35
Originally by: Malcanis
Why? Ship loss is almost always at least partly because the loser did one or several things wrong.
I`m not disputing that statement I was refering to a much more troubling behavior that happens ingame and on forums after the "victim" already "lost". And it`s not about griefing (the topic of this thread) So I don`t want to go there because it deserves a thread on it`s own...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what this thread was originally about. We're now right back to the start.
So since we're back to the beginning, let me re-iterate my initial position: the OP was the one who kicked off with the abusive insults, and can therefore hardly complain about being abused in return. After 17 pages of various viewpoints, I have not a shred of sympathy for him.
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