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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.07.30 12:34:00 -
[1]
Edited by: c0rn1 on 30/07/2009 12:35:01 Dear beloved CCP,
Why not reduce some of the reasons to metagame? During the past few years you developed the game to a point where metagaming starts to be actually necessary to be able to conquer space or hurt an alliance significantly. You may ask how you achieved that? Let me give you a few points:
=> Inventing Carriers You switched the logistics for the regular pilot from moving ships around per pedes to jump from station to station to POS/station. No way to intercept anymore unless you wanna expose yourself to a POS and even there it's hard to get a carrier before he may enter Forcefield.
=> Introducing Titans on field with freighters. Titan Jump Bridges combined with freighters were used to run logistics at that time. You alternated the way of logistics from a fleet covered freighter run, which is actually regularly interceptable by scouts, to a POS to POS jump.
=> Introducing Jump Bridges You changed the way logistics were handled for the regular pilot by moving his assets around either by carrier or in his own territory via Jump bridge. So he is basically invulnerable by any regular tactical means ingame.
=> Bringing in Jump Freighters Same problem as with carriers just even more cargohold.
So what is left as tactical option?
=> Destroy the strategically installed POSs This takes an effort of at least 1 day, most of the time 2 days. Enough time for the users to either defend it or create a workaround by putting up another POS. => Fight at the POS You have to expose your Fleet to the POS to be able to attack a logistical backbone. Even if you try this, success is very limited since he can quickly cover his butt underneath the Forcefield.
And here are the meta answers as tactical options:
=> Get the FF password. Once you got the password, you can start to bump people out of it. You even got cover by a hostile forcefield so the guns won't shoot you. => Get a spy who can offline the POS Once you can do that, you can hit strategical spots like this easily and further drive the enemy nuts. => Worst Case which we saw happen so far: Get a spy or volunteer who can disband the enemy alliance within 15 minutes. That's the golden key to metagaming. If you can achieve that, every measurement to protect yourself as an alliance is burned to the ground. All SOV systems go to 0. All effort lost. Bone crushing.
Solutions for some problems to probably reduce the weight on metagaming it has in Eve at the moment:
=> The Forcefield is not to be entered by people with a standing < 0.1 to the owning corporation/alliance => Jump Bridges, as well as Cynosural Generator Arrays may only be anchored at Planets in systems where you have the appropriate SOV in. => If someone wants to kick corps out of an alliance, there has to be a majority vote of the directors in the executor corp lasting 24h. The only one who can kick a corp immediately would be the Executor CEO These are just a few aspects how to reduce the amount of metagaming we have in Eve right now to an appropriate level and start bringing the fights away of the POSs. I don't have an issue with the spy in my fleet TS but I do have an issue that metagaming is the key to win a war in eve nowadays. No strategical or tactical effort can prevent, solve or counter a spy in your rows. And since I pay for Eve-Online I should be able to fight a war with ingame tools.
cheers
c0rn1 x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Discrodia
Gallente Guardian Legion SCUM.
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Posted - 2009.07.30 12:39:00 -
[2]
Spying is the second oldest profesion. I don't think that should be changed just for 1 game. While you have some good points, especially regarding POSes, anyone who gets Director status is fully in his rights to dissolve the alliance for either a) money / assets, b) a personal crusade, or c) a desire to see the world burn. ___________________________________________
Discrodia > Annoying idiots in 0.0 is my business. Business keeps picking up. Discrodia > I also like misquoting stuff :D |
c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.07.30 12:43:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Discrodia Spying is the second oldest profesion. I don't think that should be changed just for 1 game. While you have some good points, especially regarding POSes, anyone who gets Director status is fully in his rights to dissolve the alliance for either a) money / assets, b) a personal crusade, or c) a desire to see the world burn.
The problem is that in any corporation nowadays you have a directors board meeting to figure further way to go with your corporation. None of these directors is able to overrule a decision made by the full vote of the board, except the CEO of this company. Why should that be in eve different? And like I said. I don't have a problem with the occasional spy in my fleets. Hell, if I know who it is, I can even use him. But I do not like the current direction in eve which installs spies as mandatory within the game.
cheers
c0rn1 x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.30 12:47:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Discrodia Spying is the second oldest profesion. I don't think that should be changed just for 1 game. While you have some good points, especially regarding POSes, anyone who gets Director status is fully in his rights to dissolve the alliance for either a) money / assets, b) a personal crusade, or c) a desire to see the world burn.
BS, if the best way to deal with something in game is metagaming, something is wrong. And normal corp/alliance security possiblities should be implemented. One director shouldnt be able to do what happened to bob (dunno if it is still possible, i thought it isnt anymore). POS's should work far more with standings (including alliance standings, not just corp standings). And for example introduce a container which you can configure to allow people with certain roles to take out a certain ammount of items per hour/day/week.
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Spirit Broker
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Posted - 2009.07.30 12:54:00 -
[5]
When actions taken outside of game win wars inside of a game...something is very very wrong.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.07.30 12:58:00 -
[6]
EVE Online, where unlocking a BPO takes majority vote but dissolving the alliance is a unilateral action completed in 15 minutes.
Butterfly effect indeed.
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Discrodia
Gallente Guardian Legion SCUM.
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Posted - 2009.07.30 12:59:00 -
[7]
Okay, lemme rephrase what I said.
Spying, IMO, is not metagaming. That is what people do. You could also argue that API screening and screening people by SP and such is also metagaming. In the perfect world you wouldn't remove such things, but accept that they are there. In the real world spies steal all sorts of things, be it un-patented inventions, battle plans, ect ect ect.
I see no reason why such things could not be used in EVE online. The sapper who destroys fortifications, the thief who robs corps blind, the shady director who takes money from others for certain 'services', and of course the great puppetmasters who make them all dance are an integrel part of New Eden. Otherwise the endless capship stalemates would get nowhere, since without that tiniest tip that turns the scales and opens New Eden to the walls of wrath that are the alliances of today, only numbers would matter.
To respond to your comments on various POS structures, let me answer:
Attacking a carrier at a POS is as insane as attacking an Aircraft Carrier within spitting distance of guns and missiles that can turn you into an ungly stain almost instantly. You shouldn't try it, in other words.
As for Jump Bridges, if your enemy has invested the time to install a network of them, there's nothing preventing you from doing the same, so you're just whining since you don't wanna go through the expense.
Jump Freighters, it's the same thing as attacking a Merchant Mariner within range of a Naval Base.
While Sov has yet to be changed from the "Grab Moon-Profit" schematic, the rest of these complaints are things you should think a little more logically about, and if you can't beat the tactics, use them. ___________________________________________
Discrodia > Annoying idiots in 0.0 is my business. Business keeps picking up. Discrodia > I also like misquoting stuff :D |
c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.07.30 13:08:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Discrodia Okay, lemme rephrase what I said.
Spying, IMO, is not metagaming. That is what people do. You could also argue that API screening and screening people by SP and such is also metagaming. In the perfect world you wouldn't remove such things, but accept that they are there. In the real world spies steal all sorts of things, be it un-patented inventions, battle plans, ect ect ect.
I see no reason why such things could not be used in EVE online. The sapper who destroys fortifications, the thief who robs corps blind, the shady director who takes money from others for certain 'services', and of course the great puppetmasters who make them all dance are an integrel part of New Eden. Otherwise the endless capship stalemates would get nowhere, since without that tiniest tip that turns the scales and opens New Eden to the walls of wrath that are the alliances of today, only numbers would matter.
To respond to your comments on various POS structures, let me answer:
Attacking a carrier at a POS is as insane as attacking an Aircraft Carrier within spitting distance of guns and missiles that can turn you into an ungly stain almost instantly. You shouldn't try it, in other words.
As for Jump Bridges, if your enemy has invested the time to install a network of them, there's nothing preventing you from doing the same, so you're just whining since you don't wanna go through the expense.
Jump Freighters, it's the same thing as attacking a Merchant Mariner within range of a Naval Base.
While Sov has yet to be changed from the "Grab Moon-Profit" schematic, the rest of these complaints are things you should think a little more logically about, and if you can't beat the tactics, use them.
What tactics should I use? there are none except metagaming to get a proper grip on the logistical backbone of an alliance. PvP in 0.0 went due to the removal of this to a consensual PvP. CCP wrote on their banners that there's risk vs reward. If you got 0.0 space you have reward but still should be risky. Well, Empire space is at the moment more risky concerning logistics than 0.0 since you can't open Cynofields there and the suicide gank still works to a certain degree. Why ain't I be able to touch a 0.0 alliance in any way except at a POS? This game reduced the PvP in 0.0 to POSs and nothing more. and the only way to touch them in a short timeframe is via metagaming.
cheers
c0rn1 x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Discrodia
Gallente Guardian Legion SCUM.
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Posted - 2009.07.30 13:10:00 -
[9]
If it hurts so much to be in 0.0, leave it? And sell whatever status you have on the way out? ___________________________________________
Discrodia > Annoying idiots in 0.0 is my business. Business keeps picking up. Discrodia > I also like misquoting stuff :D |
c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.07.30 13:15:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Discrodia If it hurts so much to be in 0.0, leave it? And sell whatever status you have on the way out?
Exactly that's what I am talking about. It doesn't hurt. The risk is gone.
Cheers
c0rn1 x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
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Discrodia
Gallente Guardian Legion SCUM.
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Posted - 2009.07.30 13:17:00 -
[11]
Originally by: c0rn1
Originally by: Discrodia If it hurts so much to be in 0.0, leave it? And sell whatever status you have on the way out?
Exactly that's what I am talking about. It doesn't hurt. The risk is gone.
Cheers
c0rn1
If it doesn't hurt why are you whining on the forums?
Because you're confusing me more than Mittani confused all of BoB. ___________________________________________
Discrodia > Annoying idiots in 0.0 is my business. Business keeps picking up. Discrodia > I also like misquoting stuff :D |
c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.07.30 14:18:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Discrodia
If it doesn't hurt why are you whining on the forums?
Because you're confusing me more than Mittani confused all of BoB.
Because I want more violence. Open violence in 0.0. Not the metagaming type of violence. I want the reason why we are here back. Internet Spaceship pew pew x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Rhohan
Minmatar Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2009.07.30 14:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mara Rinn EVE Online, where unlocking a BPO takes majority vote but dissolving the alliance is a unilateral action completed in 15 minutes.
Butterfly effect indeed.
Yep, something wrong with that.
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Saka Mizuno
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.07.30 16:15:00 -
[14]
To be a 0.0 alliance, the risk is still very, very significant.
Yes moving ships around in settled 0.0 is relative "safe". The risk isn't in moving around the ships but rather in attempting to settle 0.0 itself. Hundreds of billions of isk must be sunk into building and maintaining POSs and outposts. Those billions of isk just so we can refine a little bit of ore, maybe run a few production lines, and have a few safe places to be. Risk: billions of isk. Reward: a few safe places in 0.0.
Look at what happened to BoB. They lost a staggering number of POSs (and isk) in the recent war.
So why shouldn't we have a little return on our investments?
However, it does sound like you just want an easier time ganking haulers. Maybe you should try an NPC region or FW?
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.07.30 16:27:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Saka Mizuno To be a 0.0 alliance, the risk is still very, very significant.
Yes moving ships around in settled 0.0 is relative "safe". The risk isn't in moving around the ships but rather in attempting to settle 0.0 itself. Hundreds of billions of isk must be sunk into building and maintaining POSs and outposts. Those billions of isk just so we can refine a little bit of ore, maybe run a few production lines, and have a few safe places to be. Risk: billions of isk. Reward: a few safe places in 0.0.
Look at what happened to BoB. They lost a staggering number of POSs (and isk) in the recent war.
So why shouldn't we have a little return on our investments?
However, it does sound like you just want an easier time ganking haulers. Maybe you should try an NPC region or FW?
Sorry, but the High-End moons easily come up with the reward necessary to get 0.0 space. Right, look at what happened to BoB. The only way to remove them was metagame. One volunteer to remove the assets and everything of them within a few minutes and a couple pressed buttons. And it all came down to the POSs and SOV system.
If there's a war. the only buttons pressed should be f1-f8 and not only the disband, offlining or connect to hostile TS buttons. Fireworks is what counts.
cheers
c0rn1
P.S.: And I take that one sentence as irony with the ore and production lines since a few highend moons pretty much give enough ISK within a month or two for a full scale war.
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Spurty
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.07.30 16:56:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Spurty on 30/07/2009 17:00:41 All of those logistic options are there to break the cruddy '1000 man gate camp' part of the game.
Seems to be working as intended.
Unless you have some fix *to prevent* sending us back to the dark ages *of* waiting for your blob to be bigger than theirs before you can move to the next system?
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails i for one, like 8's that look like 9's lol
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Cassius Longinus
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.07.30 17:02:00 -
[17]
You have a quality OP, however, I want to point out that for high value targets, POS are poor defenders.
Many people jump capitals to poorly setup travel POS's. You don't have to troll too many KB to see plenty of JF's which were downed at cyno's outside POS's.
Anyway, my point is that predictable jump logistics are vulnerable. Even at a POS.
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Teras Menac
Gallente Caldari POS Constructions Inc.
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Posted - 2009.07.30 17:13:00 -
[18]
Spies win wars in real life too. I fail to see the problem here. You guys wanted a complex game with multi-tiered strategy didn't you?
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.07.30 17:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Teras Menac Spies win wars in real life too. I fail to see the problem here. You guys wanted a complex game with multi-tiered strategy didn't you?
I never saw a spy disbanding The US of A for example. Or did I miss something? "multi" is the key. Nowadays it's reduced to metagaming basically.
cheers
c0rn1 x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Stegas Tyrano
Gallente GREY COUNCIL THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2009.07.30 19:34:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mara Rinn EVE Online, where unlocking a BPO takes majority vote but dissolving the alliance is a unilateral action completed in 15 minutes.
Butterfly effect indeed.
This.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.30 20:14:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Teras Menac Spies win wars in real life too. I fail to see the problem here. You guys wanted a complex game with multi-tiered strategy didn't you?
If you like to make RL comparisons for internet spaceships online, then at least make one that makes sense. How often have you seen a country being disbanded (or a corporation) by a disgruntled director? Or look at a corporation/alliance dreadnaught fleet, make it so you can configure it for example that a normal member may take one per day, and without votes a director 20 (Just random numbers, it should be configurable). Not realistic according to you? More realistic than the current situation. I for one have never heard about an unhappy admiral of the US navy (comparable to a director for this failed comparison), who did ctrl+A and moved an entire fleet from the US navy to his personal hangar without anything the US navy could do to regain them.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.07.30 20:29:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Discrodia Spying is the second oldest profesion. I don't think that should be changed just for 1 game.
While it is the that spying has and should have a part in Eve, it becomes bad if it is the ONLY viable option.
As c0rni already pointed out, CCP changed the game at many points so that - unless you make a huge effort - metagaming is the only reasonable option left. Reasonable concerning efforts and results.
CCP should think about this seriously.
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Drunk Driver
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.07.30 21:26:00 -
[23]
POS warfare sucks dirty dish water out of a cows ass.
Zero fun.
Max aggravation.
Pooh doo on POS warfare.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Shadow Reapers
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Posted - 2009.07.30 22:01:00 -
[24]
CCP should just scrap the concept of POS warfare. Why on earth is soverignity linked to moon mining towers?
It destroyed the non-r64 moon mins market, since sov pos's that are not being attacked may as well mine any old crap and dump on the market to help pay for fuel.
Dunno why a NPC structure that someone puts up should require a few hundred people to take down in any sensible timespan. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Bestofworst Worstofbest
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.07.30 22:12:00 -
[25]
I think I see what he is getting at. I would love to see more brute pew pew instead of waiting for your spy to tell your fleet NOT to go and POS bashing instead of bashing the other alliances capitals. ________________________________________________
Am I an alt, main, or both? You decide! |
Cre'tal
Eminent Disdain
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Posted - 2009.07.30 23:08:00 -
[26]
I definitely see the OP point, but let me play devil's advocate here. How much fun would it be if moon-mining POSes were completely vulnerable all the time. There would be nobody in 0.0, because it would just be a giant meat-grinder. You set up an expensive POS, and the next day someone blows it up and sets up their POS. Then the next day that gets blown up. There would never be any POSes because it wouldn't be possible to keep them running for more than 10 minutes.
There needs to be some sort of SOV because once you've gotten the resources to set up to put up a POS, it should have some inherent protection. OTOH, they shouldn't be as "invulnerable" as they are now. There's got to be a middle position somewhere.
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iP0D
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Posted - 2009.07.30 23:43:00 -
[27]
Right ...
so if I get it right the beef is with logistics (the player definition, not CCP's definition which means remote repair) and the perceived invulnerability of this.
This packaged in a wrapper of metagaming being the perceived solution to not being able to attack logistics?
Well, heh.
First of all there is no such thing as safe logistics. It is extremely vulnerable, all it takes is a little teamwork and brainwork to deal seriously heavy blows. You will have to pick and choose your battles however, as with anything in EVE. You cannot expect with two guys to take out fat targets in defended environments, not without upping the ante substantially.
A good example of this is the recently introduced concept or tactic of "nyncing" someone. Introduced by a mad russian (who is really a very nice guy) it entails tackling a sweet but heavy target in a defended environment (like a pos) with a heavy interdictor and subsequently jumping in a suicide dreadnought. Demonstrated with lovely effects taking out jumpfreighter after jumpfreighter after jumpfreighter, and currently a tactic being mimicked all over the map.
Secondly there is no such thing as safe logistics. Yes, same as point one. Even for smaller groups with smaller budgets a little teamwork and good specialisation can ruin any big alliance's jumpbridge network with ease. Cloaking Dictors, are a lovely thing. But you don't even need those if you do the math right for window of opportunity and dps. Bombers are truly vicious if properly used, and can operate around a well armed pos with relative ease. It does take experience, but that is a matter of a learning curve. Heck, a solid gang of RR BS or long range Hac's is very effective around a pos, especially with throwing in a noob alt or two for using pos scrambler cycle timers.
See, in older days we used to camp gates. We bored ourselves to hell and back, and went nuts when a noobscout showed up. These days we camp jumpbridges. The good part is that people use them with even less thinking then they used to use gates. The bad part is that you have to think about what you do.
You CAN take the route of spying as well, obviously, and to be honest this should be part of your methodology. Welcome to EVE. PVP consists for a big part of information management ya know.
But this is NOT metagaming. That is something which I believe has no place in game, or even out of game, but which is all too easily used (almost as an excuse) when people either have no clue or are too lazy to really do the work in order to get the kill.
The OP's viewpoints on tactics and methods is, I am sad to say, apparently very limited at this point. Maybe that comes from just not seeing options and methods, or adapting as EVE evolves. But that is no reason to start a whine on metagaming ...
Short version: - think outside the (sand)box - adapt and be creative - think before you post.
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Faife
Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.07.30 23:54:00 -
[28]
funny, ganking ships at jump beacons (OPs definition of safe) is the flavor of the month. jump freighters, carriers, hell even titans.
l2p tbh. -- Check out my EVE cartoons |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.07.31 00:05:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 31/07/2009 00:08:27
Originally by: Saka Mizuno To be a 0.0 alliance, the risk is still very, very significant.
Yes moving ships around in settled 0.0 is relative "safe". The risk isn't in moving around the ships but rather in attempting to settle 0.0 itself. Hundreds of billions of isk must be sunk into building and maintaining POSs and outposts. Those billions of isk just so we can refine a little bit of ore, maybe run a few production lines, and have a few safe places to be. Risk: billions of isk. Reward: a few safe places in 0.0.
Its bullcrap. The "risk" part of yours is a joke. You can live in 0.0 without any problem without POSes and conquerable stations. And its STILL safer than empire. I can jump freight to any system with ninja-cyno and logoffski/logonski before anyone can even aggro me. I can titan bridge around and noone can touch me. In empire you cant bridge around, you cant cyno around. Thus its way riskier to live in empire.
Quote:
So why shouldn't we have a little return on our investments?
Your whole "campaing" was covered with 1 month of POS mining. Yes thats how cheap the combat in eve is and thats how much moon mining gives. We were holding hiends for like month and we are STILL going on this isk and i guess we can still go on for a while. that is completly screwed up. Almost no risk (and moon mining is virtually zero risk) for insanely high rewards. Except for ocassional "nync" on jump freighter carrying dyspro (which happened like 3-5 times total in eve? whole 5 moons x 1 month of moon minerals?) its not possible to harass economy in 0.0. You can harass in empire much easier than in 0.0. Because logistics in empire are harder.
Originally by: Faife funny, ganking ships at jump beacons (OPs definition of safe) is the flavor of the month. jump freighters, carriers, hell even titans.
l2p tbh.
yes and it had HUGE impact on gameplay and 0.0 logistics. Whole alliances died because you managed to cut off their jump bridge routes, amrite?
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
EXTERMINATUS. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.31 00:08:00 -
[30]
Excellent Post.
The reason POS warfare and SOV crap needs to exist is due to the 23 hour nature of the server. It is not reasonable to expect any given group of people to have full timezone coverage to defend their POS. Thus, POS's need to be difficult, mainly due to the time sink, to take down...giving the defenders a chance to organize.
Also, Things may not be ideal right now, but things were ALOT worse...there was an incredibly long age between introduction of POSes and SOV, and introduction of Dreads. Imagine taking down those POSes with just Battleships....this was also before logistic cruisers became good, and before Carriers as well.
I do agree there is a problem with metagaming...but that is mainly because people are lazy. A couple small changes, like the ones in the OP, and we can smooth things out nicely.
PS. Camping jump bridges and cyno gens is quite easy to do....in fact its probably now easier to kill freighters and the like...because where as before they were guarded and scouted...now they travel with false sense of security...and alone.
Originally by: CCP Whisper No it is not an official statement. Not everything surrounded by blue bars is an official statement which can be quoted as fact until the end of time. Deal with it.
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