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The Facade of a "Player Driven Environment"

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Nephilim Raum	Posted - 2009.07.30 21:26:00 - [1] Sorry for posting here as a new player, I saw the thread that suggested players be at least one month old before posting topics in here but I felt this warranted a discussion and was directed to start a topic on it in the forums by ISD Tipene. My issue is with the "god mode" of the Concorde Police. I find it very unrealistic and abusive that players cannot under any circumstances win a war against the Concorde Police. Someone stated that in order to defeat a single Concorde ship you must be exploiting. I realize without this rule a high security zone would be at risk but it is just bad design to stand no chance whatsoever in a war with the Concorde Police. All zones should be able to be controlled by the players.
Magnus Orin Minmatar Heavy Influence Atropos.	Posted - 2009.07.30 21:40:00 - [2] I half agree. I still think there should be some High sec space as is, but it should be centered around the main empires, not just the four main races, but the Khanid and the other sub races too. Each of these Empire's space should be 100%, surrounded by low sec space. To achieve this, my suggestion would be to purely limit Concord to .8, .9, and 1.0 space alone, adding .5, .6, and .7 to low sec territory. This would still leave ample space for carebears, but amount to massive profits for daring traders who would risk region to region travel.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.07.30 21:44:00 - [3] The proposal I made is to prevent insta-alt spamming. Obviously your not that type of personality so don't take it personal. AS for CONCORD... This is a mechanic that has been in place for years. It's also in the EULA... to debate something like that is not going to win any points. There are many ways to win a "war" with any number of players. You just have to find the one that suites you best. 1: Make a Corporation and War-dec them. 2: Suicide Gank them (You'll get CONCORDED but that doesn't stop you from doing the "act" 3: Hunt them down in Low-sec/Null-sec There are many creative ways to get it done... but asking CCP To turn off "God Mode" as far as CONCORD... won't work. This is EVE Online... not PVP-Online.... not Carebear Online or Hello Kitty. It's for all styles of play of all kinds...if it gives favor too much to one side... you effectively ruin the game on a grand scale. Welcome to the classic war between those who wish to kill unendingly... and those who wish to make a living off of selling the very weapons of war. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.07.30 21:59:00 - [4] Originally by: Drake Draconis The proposal I made is to prevent insta-alt spamming. Obviously your not that type of personality so don't take it personal. AS for CONCORD... This is a mechanic that has been in place for years. It's also in the EULA... to debate something like that is not going to win any points. There are many ways to win a "war" with any number of players. You just have to find the one that suites you best. 1: Make a Corporation and War-dec them. 2: Suicide Gank them (You'll get CONCORDED but that doesn't stop you from doing the "act" 3: Hunt them down in Low-sec/Null-sec There are many creative ways to get it done... but asking CCP To turn off "God Mode" as far as CONCORD... won't work. This is EVE Online... not PVP-Online.... not Carebear Online or Hello Kitty. It's for all styles of play of all kinds...if it gives favor too much to one side... you effectively ruin the game on a grand scale. Welcome to the classic war between those who wish to kill unendingly... and those who wish to make a living off of selling the very weapons of war. Pretty much what Drake said. I think you'll find this proposal gets split pretty much down two lines - those of us who enjoy playing EVE the way it is, and the people who would like to turn it into a demolition derby. The problem is neither group can survive by itself. They each depend on the existence of the other, and this is a fine balance that CCP has managed to walk quite well, truth be told. What you're proposing would essentially turn the game in GoonSwarm Online - which is not a game I am interested in playing. --Vel Experience is what you get right after you need it.
Nephilim Raum	Posted - 2009.07.30 22:02:00 - [5] My issue is not with declaring war on other players. I am talking about declaring war on Concord themselves. Policing should be done by the players, not some artificial gods which are invulnerable. For a new player like me it destroys the immersion and just leaves me feeling like I'm paying to be a slave under a tyrant that cannot be defeated. That's not the player-driven environment that the game advertises itself as.
Ankhesentapemkah Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.07.30 22:06:00 - [6] The problem is that players cannot really police EVE Online, just like Raph Koster experienced when he tried to have player-driven justice in Ultima Online, he found that it was impossible due to the fact that there cannot be permanent player-enforced consequences for those that break the law. In real life if you commit a crime you go to jail if you're caught. In an online game, you cannot have players ban other players from the game. And even if you could, that person can always come back with another IP address and other account. ---
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.07.30 22:11:00 - [7] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 30/07/2009 22:12:09 Originally by: Nephilim Raum My issue is not with declaring war on other players. I am talking about declaring war on Concord themselves. Policing should be done by the players, not some artificial gods which are invulnerable. For a new player like me it destroys the immersion and just leaves me feeling like I'm paying to be a slave under a tyrant that cannot be defeated. That's not the player-driven environment that the game advertises itself as. Your taking it a little too literal here. First off... under whose judgment and authority? EVE Online is not the wild west where you bribe the local sherif and get away with murder. As a new player... your overwhelmed with the game and all the things you have to learn just to fly the damn ship.... your not interested in running for your life and avoiding the local pirate gang while getting robbed blind. CONCORD's sole purpose in life is to enforce the High Sec systems to allow those players who are not interested or not yet ready for the life of Low-sec/Null-sec to function as they see fit. Keep in mind High Sec is not safe... its just safer(tm). The Player Driven environment you seek is only achievable in Null-Sec... there you will find no law enforcement and you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want. Otherwise the player driven environment is mostly economic based at best... everything you buy... use... destroyer... tends to be manufactured or pilfered or looted by a player like yourself. Well.. not EVERYTHING... but most things.. such as your ship for starters. All in all High Sec is more like a starting point... I suggest you take some time to figure out the aspects of the game before you cast judgment on the system as it is now. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Nephilim Raum	Posted - 2009.07.30 22:21:00 - [8] Edited by: Nephilim Raum on 30/07/2009 22:23:50 Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah The problem is that players cannot really police EVE Online, just like Raph Koster experienced when he tried to have player-driven justice in Ultima Online, he found that it was impossible due to the fact that there cannot be permanent player-enforced consequences for those that break the law. In real life if you commit a crime you go to jail if you're caught. In an online game, you cannot have players ban other players from the game. And even if you could, that person can always come back with another IP address and other account. Player-driven justice actually worked in the early days of UO(I was there). If you angered too many people you would be hunted down relentlessly. In real life if someone has the capability to amass a gigantic army no police force could stop them, because police aren't invulnerable in real life. I'm not talking about removing Concord, only to have them able to be fought with a large enough force. It should be extremely difficult to pull off but not impossible like it is now. I'm also not talking about giving players the ability to ban other players, that would never work. Bans should only be given to hackers and exploiters.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.07.30 22:43:00 - [9] Sorry to be blunt... but this is not the game for you if that's what your seeking as a whole. All I can suggest is that you head on down to 0.0 space and you can enjoy the total freedom you seek. But that will never take place in High Sec... however there are ways to get revenge if you **** off alot of people enough... trust me... there are ways. Just isn't as direct as you think it is. Reputation and honor are very valuable commodities...and tend to come in short supply. CONCORD is not the one you should be worried about :) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.30 22:43:00 - [10] Originally by: Nephilim Raum In real life if someone has the capability to amass a gigantic army no police force could stop them, because police aren't invulnerable in real life. I'm not talking about removing Concord, only to have them able to be fought with a large enough force. It should be extremely difficult to pull off but not impossible like it is now. Ok, go out in RL and amass an gigantic army to take over the US. CONCORD is not only police, it is an army, backed by all the Empires as they want a certain level of safety. As already stated in other threads, if you want a realistic CONCORD you should be capable of escaping or killing the local patrol, but then all your empire clones would be destroyed, all your empire assets would be seized by the police, you would be hunted and attacked at every gate, till you are caught and locked in a cell for 40 years or permanently killed. As that kind of realistic effects would destroy the game CCP has chosen unbeatable CONCORD and little long term consequences of your actions.
Alexander Knott Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.30 22:44:00 - [11] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah The problem is that players cannot really police EVE Online, just like Raph Koster experienced when he tried to have player-driven justice in Ultima Online, he found that it was impossible due to the fact that there cannot be permanent player-enforced consequences for those that break the law. Raph also refused to implement a meaningful standings system in UO which made it impossible for players to tell at a glance who was friendly or not. Someone commented above about "GoonSwarm Online", but the truth is that life in Goon controlled space is way less complicated than in empire. If someone is blue to me, I can probably trust them. If they're not, I certainly can't. There's no weird NPC mechanics to deal with, just real justice served up by real people. If a goon screws a goon, he's out, end of story.
Red Raider Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's	Posted - 2009.07.30 22:44:00 - [12] Originally by: Nephilim Raum Edited by: Nephilim Raum on 30/07/2009 22:23:50 Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah The problem is that players cannot really police EVE Online, just like Raph Koster experienced when he tried to have player-driven justice in Ultima Online, he found that it was impossible due to the fact that there cannot be permanent player-enforced consequences for those that break the law. In real life if you commit a crime you go to jail if you're caught. In an online game, you cannot have players ban other players from the game. And even if you could, that person can always come back with another IP address and other account. Player-driven justice actually worked in the early days of UO(I was there). If you angered too many people you would be hunted down relentlessly. In real life if someone has the capability to amass a gigantic army no police force could stop them, because police aren't invulnerable in real life. I'm not talking about removing Concord, only to have them able to be fought with a large enough force. It should be extremely difficult to pull off but not impossible like it is now. I'm also not talking about giving players the ability to ban other players, that would never work. Bans should only be given to hackers and exploiters. The problem with this is the fallout that would ensue from fleets being impervious to Concord. I would give it two hours from the time the patch that removed Concords invulnerability till Jita was a raging warzone from gate to gate. A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.07.30 22:48:00 - [13] Originally by: Red Raider Originally by: Nephilim Raum Edited by: Nephilim Raum on 30/07/2009 22:23:50 Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah The problem is that players cannot really police EVE Online, just like Raph Koster experienced when he tried to have player-driven justice in Ultima Online, he found that it was impossible due to the fact that there cannot be permanent player-enforced consequences for those that break the law. In real life if you commit a crime you go to jail if you're caught. In an online game, you cannot have players ban other players from the game. And even if you could, that person can always come back with another IP address and other account. Player-driven justice actually worked in the early days of UO(I was there). If you angered too many people you would be hunted down relentlessly. In real life if someone has the capability to amass a gigantic army no police force could stop them, because police aren't invulnerable in real life. I'm not talking about removing Concord, only to have them able to be fought with a large enough force. It should be extremely difficult to pull off but not impossible like it is now. I'm also not talking about giving players the ability to ban other players, that would never work. Bans should only be given to hackers and exploiters. The problem with this is the fallout that would ensue from fleets being impervious to Concord. I would give it two hours from the time the patch that removed Concords invulnerability till Jita was a raging warzone from gate to gate. That's just the tip of the iceberg. In all reality the Market would literally crash.... maybe not all at the same time or in the same day. PVP'ers constantly ignore just how 1 "stupid carebear" can impact the entire game. (thumbs butterfly effect) That's valid theory folks... no doubt bout it... lot of people tend to have tunnel vision these days. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Nephilim Raum	Posted - 2009.07.30 23:01:00 - [14] Originally by: Drake Draconis Originally by: Red Raider The problem with this is the fallout that would ensue from fleets being impervious to Concord. I would give it two hours from the time the patch that removed Concords invulnerability till Jita was a raging warzone from gate to gate. That's just the tip of the iceberg. In all reality the Market would literally crash.... maybe not all at the same time or in the same day. PVP'ers constantly ignore just how 1 "stupid carebear" can impact the entire game. (thumbs butterfly effect) That's valid theory folks... no doubt bout it... lot of people tend to have tunnel vision these days. Those are good points. You're right I know a huge war would break out but only because the mechanic was there to begin with. It set up artificial boundaries which has impacted every other aspect of the game. If Concord was controllable from the start the wars would have been fought already and the corporate alliances could have established their own empires throughout the universe.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.07.30 23:48:00 - [15] Originally by: Nephilim Raum If Concord was controllable from the start the wars would have been fought already and the corporate alliances could have established their own empires throughout the universe. And that would bge an absolutely horrible state of affairs. I join the game as a new player and before I even know how to fly my ship, I'm being accosted by some corporate pressgang saying if I don't fly with them, I'll be shot down everytime I undock. You'd kill the game, plain and simple. --Vel Experience is what you get right after you need it.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.07.30 23:58:00 - [16] Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 30/07/2009 23:58:18 Originally by: Nephilim Raum Player-driven justice actually worked in the early days of UO(I was there). If you angered too many people you would be hunted down relentlessly. No it didn't (I was there too). While it's possible our experiences were different due to the sharded nature of UO, I dont think so. The "reds" banded together quite effectively. With no shards in Eve, it would be even less effective here. Anarchy leads directly to tyranny when the strong take over because they can. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Nephilim Raum	Posted - 2009.07.31 00:13:00 - [17] Originally by: De'Veldrin And that would bge an absolutely horrible state of affairs. I join the game as a new player and before I even know how to fly my ship, I'm being accosted by some corporate pressgang saying if I don't fly with them, I'll be shot down everytime I undock. You'd kill the game, plain and simple. How is that any different from being forced into an empire upon character creation? The only difference I see is that the empire uses a cheat to control its sovereignty, whereas in your scenario these "accosters" are other players that can be bribed, convinced, charmed, black-mailed, double-crossed or even destroyed if the new player already has connections in game. Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri No it didn't (I was there too). While it's possible our experiences were different due to the sharded nature of UO, I dont think so. The "reds" banded together quite effectively. With no shards in Eve, it would be even less effective here. Anarchy leads directly to tyranny when the strong take over because they can. You must not have seen any PKK groups on your shard. It was also possible to be safe from reds through diplomacy with other reds. These games are supposed to be about socializing, aren't they?
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.07.31 00:19:00 - [18] Originally by: Nephilim Raum Originally by: De'Veldrin And that would bge an absolutely horrible state of affairs. I join the game as a new player and before I even know how to fly my ship, I'm being accosted by some corporate pressgang saying if I don't fly with them, I'll be shot down everytime I undock. You'd kill the game, plain and simple. How is that any different from being forced into an empire upon character creation? Because I got to choose the empire I joined when I made my character. If you don't like those choices, don't play EVE. I am starting to detect the strong scent of troll emanating from this thread. --Vel Experience is what you get right after you need it.
Nephilim Raum	Posted - 2009.07.31 00:45:00 - [19] Edited by: Nephilim Raum on 31/07/2009 00:46:02 Originally by: De'Veldrin Because I got to choose the empire I joined when I made my character. If you don't like those choices, don't play EVE. I am starting to detect the strong scent of troll emanating from this thread. Would it not be also feasible then to let the player choose the region he/she wishes to start in? Maybe have a map which shows player controlled empire sovereignty in the regions of the universe. You mentioned earlier that you believe there is a split between people who want all out war and those that do not. While this may be true to an extent I think you are ignoring the capabilities of players to police themselves. Reputation is everything in a true player controlled environment, you can see evidence of that in this game with the economy. I would just like to see that expanded to the rest of the game. I'm actually kind of hurt that you would accuse me of trolling, I've been nothing but constructive this whole time and I truly believe this is a serious issue in the game. But I apologize if I've offended you in some way that would make you think I have ulterior motives.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.07.31 01:31:00 - [20] Originally by: Nephilim Raum Would it not be also feasible then to let the player choose the region he/she wishes to start in? Maybe have a map which shows player controlled empire sovereignty in the regions of the universe. You mentioned earlier that you believe there is a split between people who want all out war and those that do not. While this may be true to an extent I think you are ignoring the capabilities of players to police themselves. How does a truely new player know the differences between these player-controlled factions to pick a starting area? If you are really as new to Eve as you say you are, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The rules you speak of, with no NPC police and complete player authority exist in the geographical majority of the galaxy. "Empire" space is a relatively small area in the center of the galaxy. Are you familiar with the acronym NBSI? NBSI stands for Not Blue Shoot It, and it is the standard operating procedure of about 90% of the corporations and alliances that live outside of empire space. It's not "if it's a war target shoot it", it's not "if it's hostile shoot it", it's shoot it if it's anything other than someone pre-qualified to enter this area. This is Eve. There is no PK vs. NPK here. There is no "good" or "evil". In areas with no Concord there's only "blue" and "everyone else" and everyone else is a target. If you have not spent time in 0.0 space, frankly you lack the perspective to suggest this type of change. Brand new players should not be subjected to the absolutely impersonal destruction that the player-run powers of Eve would rule with. This isn't theory. The alliances ALREADY run this way. This would not change inside empire. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Dr BattleSmith PAX Interstellar Services	Posted - 2009.07.31 01:58:00 - [21] CONDORD used to be weaker. However the end result = lag. So they made CONCORD stronger with less ships spawning = less lag. You're missing some of the mechanics here (like suicide ganking) as well as the backstory.
Dr BattleSmith PAX Interstellar Services	Posted - 2009.07.31 02:03:00 - [22] Originally by: Nephilim Raum Those are good points. You're right I know a huge war would break out but only because the mechanic was there to begin with. It set up artificial boundaries which has impacted every other aspect of the game. If Concord was controllable from the start the wars would have been fought already and the corporate alliances could have established their own empires throughout the universe. If that were the case, you'd be unable to undock until you were press-ganged into the virus alliance holding u in station. New players would not be able to see a single ship in space because they'd be insta-popped on undocking until they joined the horde.
Dr BattleSmith PAX Interstellar Services	Posted - 2009.07.31 02:07:00 - [23] Originally by: Nephilim Raum whereas in your scenario these "accosters" are other players that can be bribed, convinced, charmed, black-mailed, double-crossed or even destroyed if the new player already has connections in game. So all new players have to have existing contacts in-game before being allowed to undock without being popped? What you gunna bribe em with? [sarcasm]Sounds like an amazingly awesome new-player experience[/sarcasm] Somehow I think Eve is a little more inclusive then that. Move to 0.0. Problem solved.
Nephilim Raum	Posted - 2009.07.31 02:16:00 - [24] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri How does a truely new player know the differences between these player-controlled factions to pick a starting area? If you are really as new to Eve as you say you are, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The rules you speak of, with no NPC police and complete player authority exist in the geographical majority of the galaxy. "Empire" space is a relatively small area in the center of the galaxy. Are you familiar with the acronym NBSI? NBSI stands for Not Blue Shoot It, and it is the standard operating procedure of about 90% of the corporations and alliances that live outside of empire space. It's not "if it's a war target shoot it", it's not "if it's hostile shoot it", it's shoot it if it's anything other than someone pre-qualified to enter this area. This is Eve. There is no PK vs. NPK here. There is no "good" or "evil". In areas with no Concord there's only "blue" and "everyone else" and everyone else is a target. If you have not spent time in 0.0 space, frankly you lack the perspective to suggest this type of change. Brand new players should not be subjected to the absolutely impersonal destruction that the player-run powers of Eve would rule with. This isn't theory. The alliances ALREADY run this way. This would not change inside empire. I find it hard to believe that peace treaties or non-aggression pacts between alliances do not exist in Eve. Also I know corporations do not always stay within the same alliance, and(I'm assuming here) in 0.0 space territory sovereignty changes occasionally. Am I wrong about that? It seems you are also suggesting that every alliance is about "absolutely impersonal destruction" which just seems preposterous. You do know that other players are actual human beings just like you with emotions and thought processes, right? In over a decade of playing online games I have never met a player who could not be reasoned with in any way.
Nephilim Raum	Posted - 2009.07.31 02:41:00 - [25] Originally by: Dr BattleSmith If that were the case, you'd be unable to undock until you were press-ganged into the virus alliance holding u in station. New players would not be able to see a single ship in space because they'd be insta-popped on undocking until they joined the horde. So all new players have to have existing contacts in-game before being allowed to undock without being popped? What you gunna bribe em with? [sarcasm]Sounds like an amazingly awesome new-player experience[/sarcasm] Somehow I think Eve is a little more inclusive then that. Players are forced into the horde right now, and this horde uses a cheat to keep players in check. If it was player run they would all be banned. That is the main problem with the mechanics as it is now, there isn't an equal playing field. You wouldn't need to have existing contacts that was just one example, you would also have the option of joining with the "virus" since you decided to spawn in their region. After that you could find ways of going to another alliance more suited to you or find a smaller corporation to live in a low-patrolled region or use diplomacy to get a non-aggro pact with an alliance. Right now that small invincible alliance in the middle is undercutting every other alliance by offering players total security which is imbalanced.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.07.31 02:55:00 - [26] Originally by: Nephilim Raum I find it hard to believe that peace treaties or non-aggression pacts between alliances do not exist in Eve. Also I know corporations do not always stay within the same alliance, and(I'm assuming here) in 0.0 space territory sovereignty changes occasionally. Am I wrong about that? It seems you are also suggesting that every alliance is about "absolutely impersonal destruction" which just seems preposterous. You do know that other players are actual human beings just like you with emotions and thought processes, right? In over a decade of playing online games I have never met a player who could not be reasoned with in any way. With a month in game and no 0.0 experience you are coming off like a know-it-all tourist explaining to the locals how they could improve the local culture. Your 10 years of MMO experience mean nothing in Eve. My previous 10 years of MMO experience also meant nothing in Eve. Get off your soap box and start learning before you start pontificating. Try flying out to Goonswarm space (or hell.. you pick the alliance) and fly into "their" space and start negotiating with them as an independant newbie.. let us know how it goes. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Saju Somtaaw Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.07.31 03:12:00 - [27] And CVA space only counts if your a Minmatar, otherwise your pretty safe from them. But please get of that soap box, EvE is NOTHING like any other MMO out there at the moment. The only thing close is Jump Gate Evolution, and its still under development. ---- --- --- Devs Sign Here; GMs and ISD welcome to :)
Dr BattleSmith PAX Interstellar Services	Posted - 2009.07.31 03:32:00 - [28] Edited by: Dr BattleSmith on 31/07/2009 03:33:31 Originally by: Nephilim Raum Players are forced into the horde right now, and this horde uses a cheat to keep players in check. If it was player run they would all be banned. That is the main problem with the mechanics as it is now, there isn't an equal playing field. The equal playing field is that anyone can be killed anywhere at anytime for good reasons or no reasons. If you're like me and generally ** people off then you'll find-out soon enough that CONDORD aren't perfect protectors. :-) Banned? Are you suggesting players vote on bans? wtf?? Originally by:** Nephilim Raum You wouldn't need to have existing contacts that was just one example, you would also have the option of joining with the "virus" since you decided to spawn in their region. You: "Hey I just spawned in your space, this game is cool, can I join". Them: "** off" Originally by:** Nephilim Raum After that you could find ways of going to another alliance more suited to you or find a smaller corporation to live in a low-patrolled region or use diplomacy to get a non-aggro pact with an alliance. You: "Hey can I get a NAP?" Them: "Who are you? Go away"
Nephilim Raum	Posted - 2009.07.31 03:41:00 - [29] Quote: With a month in game and no 0.0 experience you are coming off like a know-it-all tourist explaining to the locals how they could improve the local culture. Your 10 years of MMO experience mean nothing in Eve. My previous 10 years of MMO experience also meant nothing in Eve. Get off your soap box and start learning before you start pontificating. Try flying out to Goonswarm space (or hell.. you pick the alliance) and fly into "their" space and start negotiating with them as an independant newbie.. let us know how it goes. You disregarded the content of my reply without actually debating the arguments raised simply because of this rule you've imposed that I must have a certain amount of time spent in game before I can create opinions about mechanics which I think are flawed. Also, any diplomat knows to negotiate before entering foreign territory. I don't see how name-calling is warranted in this thread. I'm not trying to be dogmatic I'm just a concerned citizen.
Nephilim Raum	Posted - 2009.07.31 03:55:00 - [30] Originally by: Dr BattleSmith Banned? Are you suggesting players vote on bans? wtf?? No I meant if Concord was run by players, and those players used cheats to make their ships invincible, those players would be banned by CCP. Originally by: Dr BattleSmith You: "Hey I just spawned in your space, this game is cool, can I join". Them: "**** off" You: "Hey can I get a NAP?" Them: "Who are you? Go away" Is that how you negotiate?

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