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blkmajik
Overview Glitch
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Posted - 2009.07.31 17:57:00 -
[1]
Its well known that 0.0 is outlaw space. The rules of lowsec and empire do not apply. If you shoot anyone, concord will not come. Gate guns will not attack you. And most importantly, you won't get a security status hit. It's outlaw space.
In the factional warfare militias, some efforts have been made to prevent militia members from attacking other members of the same militia, even in lowsec. Namely, they take a huge security status hit and lose standing towards own faction. Enough of that, and their corp standing (or pilots standing if in the NPC corp) will drop to the point where they are automatically removed from militia. Not bad for a self policing system.
Factional warfare takes place in lowsec, so how it interacts with 0.0 isn't given much attention. Other than the rules of Concord, other things that apply differently in 0.0 and lowsec are bombs, doomsdays, and of course interdictors. And this is where the problems start...
If a militia fleet goes to look for fun in 0.0 and brings a dictor of any type, and the dictor pilot deploys his bubble, he'll take a security status hit and faction hit every time one of his fleet mates flys through the bubble. needless to say, if you learn this the hard way, you're pretty much -10 sec status and likely booted from militia right away.
The bug is clear: Extra checks were added to make sure that players don't exploit the FW dynamics to let them attack their own faction. These extra checks don't consider if the actions are taking place in 0.0 or not. Sounds like a pretty simple bug to me!
CCP, can you PLEASE fix this in the upcoming patch, while addressing all the other FW fixes? Until then, would it be possible to update the GM team to revise a policy for adjusting standing/sec status for petitions over these issues?
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ThrashPower
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.07.31 18:07:00 -
[2]
I don't think it is a bug. I've been told that you always have lost standings when aggressing/killing players whom are members of the various npc corps in 0.0.
I would support a suggestion to change this ******ed mechanic obviously.
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blkmajik
Overview Glitch
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Posted - 2009.07.31 18:14:00 -
[3]
Originally by: ThrashPower I've been told that you always have lost standings when aggressing/killing players whom are members of the various npc corps in 0.0.
This statement is incorrect. If they are in 0.0, regardless of being in an NPC corp, you can kill them without any negative side effects. I've done it more times than I can remember and never took a sec hit. Otherwise ever fleet would have npc corp scouts :)
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Xianbei
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Posted - 2009.07.31 18:16:00 -
[4]
of course its a bug
what other mechanic in 0.0 causes a security status hit ?
sloppy tbpfh
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.07.31 18:29:00 -
[5]
Security status != faction standing.
Now I dont care for both so I cant say for sure, but shouldnt you get a standing hit (not a security status hit) when attacking a npc corp player in nullsec?
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blkmajik
Overview Glitch
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Posted - 2009.07.31 18:44:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Omara Otawan shouldnt you get a standing hit (not a security status hit) when attacking a npc corp player in nullsec?
No. Its lawless space and the NPC player corps don't operate there at all. Why should an NPC corp care about some idiot member who's outside their sphere of influence? See my previous comment about exploiting NPC corp membership for scouting. In 0.0, killing ANYONE should have no automated penalty.
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Grista
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Posted - 2009.07.31 19:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Xianbei of course its a bug
what other mechanic in 0.0 causes a security status hit ?
I once lost sec status by accidentally shooting a gate. By the time a GM responded to my petition about about it (a week or two later), I'd already regained the status so he took no action. I filed a bug report, but never heard anything.
This was a normal stargate in 0.0, although it may have been a gate between two regions if that means anything.
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blkmajik
Overview Glitch
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Posted - 2009.07.31 19:31:00 -
[8]
Edited by: blkmajik on 31/07/2009 19:31:22
Originally by: Grista I once lost sec status by accidentally shooting a gate.
Also wrong (unless maybe it was years ago and has been fixed). Even shooting NPC stations in 0.0 doesn't cause you to lose standing with the owner (but it will get you shot). Again, I've done this many times. More to the point, wouldn't putting a bubble up around a gate then cause the dictor to lose sec status? Because this happens all the time, and it doesn't give you a sec hit. unless you're in a militia ;)
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.07.31 20:12:00 -
[9]
So you want to be able to shoot people that probably doesn't even have you on their overview?
It may not be your intention but that is what it boils down to. In a player controlled corporation or alliance a friendly-fire incident can be sorted by booting people but no such option exists for the militia's due to their NPC nature. CCP chose to use standings as a way to work around the non-bootable thing. Not being able to use bubbles is a rather minor thing when you look at what the solution actually solves.
PS: What are you doing in 0.0 anyway you slacker. Get back on the front soldier!
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2009.07.31 20:16:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 31/07/2009 20:17:53
Originally by: blkmajik Why should an NPC corp care about some idiot member who's outside their sphere of influence?
Why should the leadership of any 0.0 player alliance care if their members shoot blues in some region where they have no sov? But in fact, if you shoot blues, chances are, you'll be kicked out of the alliance.
Same reasoning applies to the militia. The militia is, after all, intended to be an introduction to PvP. In 0.0 alliances, you just don't shoot blues and have it go unremarked by your superiors.
-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then --
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Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.07.31 22:43:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 31/07/2009 20:17:53
Originally by: blkmajik Why should an NPC corp care about some idiot member who's outside their sphere of influence?
Why should the leadership of any 0.0 player alliance care if their members shoot blues in some region where they have no sov? But in fact, if you shoot blues, chances are, you'll be kicked out of the alliance.
Same reasoning applies to the militia. The militia is, after all, intended to be an introduction to PvP. In 0.0 alliances, you just don't shoot blues and have it go unremarked by your superiors.
I know. In 0.0 nobody ever drops bubbles when blues are nearby... oh wait.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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blkmajik
Overview Glitch
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Posted - 2009.07.31 23:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida So you want to be able to shoot people that probably doesn't even have you on their overview?
Do you have any idea how a bubble works? Get a clue
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida In a player controlled corporation or alliance a friendly-fire incident can be sorted by booting people but no such option exists for the militia's due to their NPC nature.
If they do this in highsec, they'll get concorded. Same with militia. If they do this in lowsec, they'll still get a sec status hit and gate/station guns will shoot them... same with militia. If they do this in 0.0, its up to player action to fix it. SAME WITH MILITIA
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida PS: What are you doing in 0.0 anyway you slacker. Get back on the front soldier!
burninating
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blkmajik
Overview Glitch
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Posted - 2009.07.31 23:14:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel Why should the leadership of any 0.0 player alliance care if their members shoot blues in some region where they have no sov? But in fact, if you shoot blues, chances are, you'll be kicked out of the alliance.
Yea, everyone who ever deploys a bubble that a blue goes through should be kicked out of the alliance! Get a clue. Even with shooting vs bubble agro, it all depends on circumstance, and its always responded to MANUALLY BY PLAYERS. I've killed and podded my alliance exec before and was thanked for it.... because he stole a mothership! It's totally avoidable in militia anyway.... afraid of blues? Don't go to 0.0! done, problem solved.
Originally by: Karentaki I know. In 0.0 nobody ever drops bubbles when blues are nearby... oh wait.
thank you :)
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Mutnin
Mutineers
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Posted - 2009.08.01 09:27:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Mutnin on 01/08/2009 09:28:06
Yes it is a very dumb thing. If you are in FW and use a bubble, if any of your friendly militia happen to stray into the bubble during the fight and get killed, it causes the bubble maker to take a big faction hit and possibly knock him out of FW.
It is something that should be fixed.
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oodin
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.08.01 10:28:00 -
[15]
who cares about that bug as militias have nothing to do in 0.0 as they belong in low sec
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Psychotic Maniac
Caldari Head Shrinkers
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Posted - 2009.08.01 11:23:00 -
[16]
I'm a dictor pilot whose fc liked to go mess around in 0.0 with tri quite often. It was fun even when they dropped a titan on us. A week later that guy lost that titan. Anyhow, it was part of the reason I quit militia. TOO MANY BUGS
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Mutnin
Mutineers
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Posted - 2009.08.01 11:25:00 -
[17]
Originally by: oodin who cares about that bug as militias have nothing to do in 0.0 as they belong in low sec
We are conquering providence on our days off.
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Dungheap
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.08.01 18:46:00 -
[18]
i don't know the ins and outs of FW rules, but can confirm you do lose standing (not security status) to an npc corp for killing their members in 0.0 space.
if a player is killed while in your bubble, or after passing through your bubble and not having a session change, you will be on the killmail.
the same is true with carriers supporting each other, and damaging each other with smartbombs while destroying hostile drones.
perhaps the OP could provide documentation, as it sounds like he's confusing security status loss with standing loss, although this may be a mechanic unique to faction warfare.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis The Space P0lice
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Posted - 2009.08.02 03:02:00 -
[19]
Get neutral alts to drop the bubbles. Granted, you'd have to get some communication before some idiot in a stabbed up Drake blows up your dictor fleet... /stereotype
All the cool kids let alts tackle for them anyhow *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Lexa Hellfury
Incura
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Posted - 2009.08.02 07:55:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dungheap and if the standings penalty were removed, how would you deal with a FW spy who intentionally bubbles his own fleet ?
Um...blow him up? The same way everybody else deals with spies?
Originally by: RedSplat The Forum moderation Software known as Mitnal became self aware. CCP had no choice but to shut it down.
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Havohej
Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
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Posted - 2009.08.02 08:00:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Psychotic Maniac I'm a dictor pilot whose fc liked to go mess around in 0.0 with tri quite often. It was fun even when they dropped a titan on us. A week later that guy lost that titan. Anyhow, it was part of the reason I quit militia. TOO MANY BUGS
Funny, this same thing happened to severance recently. They liked doomsdaying small militia roaming gangs, and a couple weeks after they started doing that, their titan got ganked (by Cry Havoc I think).
I think the lesson to be learned here is, DD'ing militia gangs is bad luck.
"You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
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Nur AlHuda
Amarr Callide Vulpis
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Posted - 2009.08.02 16:40:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Nur AlHuda on 02/08/2009 16:40:19 It works as intended couse the buble sould be used to catch enemies not friendlies. So if you cant coordinate actions ofc you take hit as militia is npc alliance there is no person to adjust setting so no person can misused it. Is that hard ot just simply coordinate a fleet on eve voice?
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SteamPowered Cranium
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Posted - 2009.08.02 17:19:00 -
[23]
The sheer number of people who obviously have absolutely no clue how a bubble works in this thread makes it pure win.
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Sera Ryskin
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Posted - 2009.08.02 22:25:00 -
[24]
Originally by: SteamPowered Cranium The sheer number of people who obviously have absolutely no clue how a bubble works in this thread makes it pure win.
This. Anyone who has actually flown an interdictor knows that using it properly will frequently generate aggro flags against your own fleet. This is NOT a hostile action, it is the normal use of an interdictor. Note the difference:
A non-FW interdictor bubbles a gate for his fleet. Some random fleet member inside the bubble (a perfectly normal situation, as friendly fleet members will often be inside the bubble when it is placed correctly) hits their warp button for whatever reason. Since this is 0.0, the only thing that happens is they get the "get out of the bubble before warping" message, and the interdictor pilot gets an aggro flag and can't jump or dock for 60 seconds.
Or how about when a fleet member is killed? Obviously the interdictor pilot is not going to drop the bubble and allow the hostile fleet to escape just so one person can get their pod out, so the pod aligns out and the pilot spams the warp button until he reaches the edge of the bubble and warps. Again, no problem. In fact, this is an extremely common scenario, interdictor pilots will frequently end up on friendly killmails (including their own killmails). While this may be kind of awesome for the interdictor pilot's killboard efficiency, everyone involved knows that there was no hostile intent.
But what if the interdictor pilot is a FW member? Then suddenly each of these "attacks" results in a standings penalty, quickly dropping the interdictor pilot negative with their chosen faction and removing them from FW. Every player involved knows that there has been no hostile action, but the bugged as hell game code insists otherwise. In fact, it isn't even too hard to imagine a scenario where an interdictor pilot is instantly kicked from FW and given negative standings he has no hope of ever repairing. Consider what would happen if the FC of a 50-man gang hits the fleet warp button with his fleet still in the bubble, the unfortunate interdictor pilot gets 50x standings penalties and is out of FW.
It's bad enough when these absurd scenarios happen in lowsec (such as the smartbombing capitals previously mentioned), but 0.0 is supposed to be completely free of all these penalties. And even worse, 0.0 warfare involves heavy use of AOE weapons. A militia fleet essentially can not use interdictor bubbles, bombs, or titans if they wish to remain part of FW.
TL,DR: this is an obvious bug in need of fixing, and anyone who believes otherwise has clearly never been in 0.0. ==========
Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:34:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 03/08/2009 21:34:10
Originally by: Karentaki
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Why should the leadership of any 0.0 player alliance care if their members shoot blues in some region where they have no sov?
I know. In 0.0 nobody ever drops bubbles when blues are nearby... oh wait.
Are you saying your alliance leadership is just as inflexible and dogmatic as NPC alliance leadership? -- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then --
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:38:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Lexa Hellfury
Originally by: Dungheap and if the standings penalty were removed, how would you deal with a FW spy who intentionally bubbles his own fleet ?
Um...blow him up? The same way everybody else deals with spies?
Of course that would result in a standings hit for the people who shot down the spy.
1. Join militia as spy 2. Take militia fleet into 0.0 3. Pop bubble, **** off FC 4. FC shoots spy, is kicked from FW 5. ??? 6. Profit!
-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then --
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:41:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sera Ryskin A militia fleet essentially can not use interdictor bubbles, bombs, or titans if they wish to remain part of FW.
You figured that out all by yourself, did you? That FW is not the same as 0.0 alliance wars?
Congratulations. No wonder you're such a respected figure on the forums.
-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then --
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Christina Bamar
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2009.08.03 22:18:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Christina Bamar on 03/08/2009 22:21:39 Edited by: Christina Bamar on 03/08/2009 22:19:54
Originally by: Nur AlHuda Edited by: Nur AlHuda on 02/08/2009 16:40:19 It works as intended couse the buble sould be used to catch enemies not friendlies. So if you cant coordinate actions ofc you take hit as militia is npc alliance there is no person to adjust setting so no person can misused it. Is that hard ot just simply coordinate a fleet on eve voice?
No offense or anything, but that's not at all how bubbles work or are used. If you drop a bubble on your enemy many times you'll be engaging that enemy and at the very least have your tacklers inside that bubble along with them. You would have to go way out of your way to avoid having any friendlies in any bubbles, and you'd be shooting yourself in the foot in the process.
It fundamentally makes no sense for bubbles to have this affect, FW or not. Friendlies being affected by bubbles is a normal fact of life, not an aggressive action.
CEO, Agony Unleashed |
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