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Allen Ramses
Caldari Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.02 05:33:00 -
[1]
Has anyone considered how flawed RR is in comparison to its local counterpart? Could it be why RR BSs are so prevalent? I think it might be. After looking at the numbers, why would ANYONE want to fit a local rep?
Large Armor Repair II CPU - 55TF Grid - 2300MW Activation - 400 GJ Repaired - 800 HP Efficiency - 2 HP/GJ Duration - 12s (Repair Systems IV) Net Repair Amt - 66.67 HP/s Requires a tank/low slot
Large Remote Armor Repair II CPU - 48TF Grid - 660MW Activation - 201.6 GJ (Remote Armor Repair Systems IV) Repaired - 384HP Efficiency - 1.905 HP/GJ Duration - 4.5s Net repair amt - 85.33 HP/s Requires a utility/high slot
So, looking at the above, you can see the incentives to using a LRAR II. *LRAR II costs MUCH less to fit. *LRAR II is 96% as cap efficient. *LRAR II has a MUCH lower repair interval. *LRAR II requires half the initial activation cost. *LRAR II repairs more over time. *LRAR II doesn't occupy a tank slot.
This desperately needs to be looked at. I'm not the one to decide what the balance between remote and local reppers should be, but as of now, there is absolutely no reason to fit an armor repper when you and your wingman can repair better than you can independently, and you both have a spare slot to fit more resistance/buffer.
Please bring this to the attention of CCP, fixing this would reduce stationary BS blob considerably. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Efdi
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.08.02 05:47:00 -
[2]
Yeah, man. We wouldn't want people to think that teamwork is a good thing.
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Yaay
The Aggressors
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Posted - 2009.08.02 06:17:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Efdi Yeah, man. We wouldn't want people to think that teamwork is a good thing.
I don't particularly support it because I think there are good counters to a standard RR fleet. Carriers are another issue, for another thread.
But he does kinda make a valid point. Between extender/plate setups and RR setups, Personal active tanks are slowly being diminished overtime for any activities outside of PvE. It's probably an issue that does need some consideration, but I honestly don't know what kind.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Oarta
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Posted - 2009.08.02 09:05:00 -
[4]
Don't Support the Issue.
You cannot do a direct compare of raw statistics for Local and Remote repair. Remote repair requires another player to operate and all the possible problems with coordination that entails. I favor the use of Remote Repair as it requires more skill/support from a player perspective to implement versus just clicking your own module.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre
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Posted - 2009.08.02 10:20:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 02/08/2009 10:23:31 Not Supported.
A little too off the wall for my tastes.
Teamwork is also a major factor here. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.08.02 15:04:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Oarta Don't Support the Issue.
You cannot do a direct compare of raw statistics for Local and Remote repair. Remote repair requires another player to operate and all the possible problems with coordination that entails. I favor the use of Remote Repair as it requires more skill/support from a player perspective to implement versus just clicking your own module.
This. It's all well and good to say RR is better, until you try to fly solo.
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ITTigerClawIK
Amarr Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers
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Posted - 2009.08.02 15:37:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
This. It's all well and good to say RR is better, until you try to fly solo.
in regards to this, in PvP your NOT ment to fly solo unless your very stupid, this is a MMO after all.
Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected]) |
Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.08.02 15:51:00 -
[8]
On the other hand local reppers can't be jammed. ---
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Daemon Vlad
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Posted - 2009.08.02 17:31:00 -
[9]
Supported. It doesn't make sense that a RAR is better than a LAR by such a degree. if anything, the LAR should be better because of internal repairing. Furthermore, it doesn't have the vacuum of space to work around. The way I see it, RAR should be a supplement to existing repair, not a superseded replacement.
I think switching the fitting requirements would be a good start, and maybe increasing the RAR duration and decreasing the LAR duration so that the damage repaired over time are switched. The efficiency can stay how it is.
But PLEASE, give a boost to range. 8500m is ridiculously short range. Should be way higher, maybe with a falloff.
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Larkonis Trassler
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Posted - 2009.08.02 17:57:00 -
[10]
Local tanks are still superior for small gang work IMHO. There are no faction remote reps, remote reps are not affected by boosters... etc etc.
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.08.02 18:03:00 -
[11]
Not supported.
I think this is just another knee-jerk reaction.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.02 18:08:00 -
[12]
EVE should be a Massively Singleplayer Online RPG c/d?
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.08.02 21:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Oarta Don't Support the Issue.
You cannot do a direct compare of raw statistics for Local and Remote repair. Remote repair requires another player to operate and all the possible problems with coordination that entails. I favor the use of Remote Repair as it requires more skill/support from a player perspective to implement versus just clicking your own module.
This. It's all well and good to say RR is better, until you try to fly solo.
Well for solo you would fit tanking rigs and then the stats would move towards the LAR i think.
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Allen Ramses
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.02 22:02:00 -
[14]
Hooo boy...
Originally by: Efdi Yeah, man. We wouldn't want people to think that teamwork is a good thing.
Originally by: Drake Draconis A little too off the wall for my tastes.
Teamwork is also a major factor here.
Originally by: Scatim Helicon EVE should be a Massively Singleplayer Online RPG c/d?
Red herring arguments FTW. This is not about teamwork, it's about the lack of place for local reps because remote reps are a much better tool for the job. Teamwork is good, nullifying an internal module because a wingman can do it better is not.
If you're going to invalidate the issue, at least provide an argument to back it up.
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler Local tanks are still superior for small gang work IMHO. There are no faction remote reps, remote reps are not affected by boosters... etc etc.
The lack of faction RR and RR boosters (both special cases) is not an excuse as to why RR is better in so many ways. And furthermore, all you need is one wingman to be close to you to get better benefits than you can provide for yourself. That's hardly explaining how local tanks are superior for small gangs.
Originally by: Oarta Don't Support the Issue.
You cannot do a direct compare of raw statistics for Local and Remote repair.
If it serves the same purpose in much the same way, you certainly can compare the raw statistics.
Originally by: Oarta Remote repair requires another player to operate and all the possible problems with coordination that entails. I favor the use of Remote Repair as it requires more skill/support from a player perspective to implement versus just clicking your own module.
With many configurations, there is little coordination required. And yes it can be a support role, but it becomes a matter of mutual benefit once everyone has them equipped, then the support argument goes right out the window. As for skill, there's not much involved except for learning how to operate it properly (as is the case for local reps).
I don't have a problem with teammates helping each other, but this isn't a case of helping other teammates, it's a case of letting someone else do the job for them because nobody is capable of doing a proper job himself. Taking out a webber is helping your teammate. RR is not only helping out your teammate, it makes local reps obsolete. The fitting requirements alone are proof enough of that.
Oh, and I suppose I may as well support my own idea. /supported ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.02 23:13:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Efdi Yeah, man. We wouldn't want people to think that teamwork is a good thing.
Unless for shield tanking. Then we want people to think that teamwork is a terrible thing.
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Tortugan
F9X
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Posted - 2009.08.02 23:41:00 -
[16]
Allen, this wouldn't have anything to do with not listening to good 'ole Viktor Vegas and going ahead to try to gank my dominix, resulting in losing a couple of rigged ships, would it?
Local rep already has a place in small gang warfare- for instance, most battlecruiser class ships will generally use local rep, and in small engagements, it's not uncommon to see battleships using local rep as well. The bottom line is that local rep already has a place- in small gang warfare, and in PVE. Boosting local rep by the degree you're suggesting would remove the viability of plated setups. Additionally, I think you underestimate the drawbacks of RR- as soon as your RR gets jammed, or you move out of their short range, you're basically screwed. IMO the system is fairly well balanced as is, and there's no need for this change.
----
Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard |
steave435
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.08.03 00:06:00 -
[17]
LAR doesn't require a second player, and the rep effect of a LRAR can be removed by jamming.
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Jaina Proudmoar
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Posted - 2009.08.03 01:05:00 -
[18]
Try to solo with RR and see how OP it is.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2009.08.03 02:47:00 -
[19]
By design. Balanced. Exactly how it should be.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.03 02:50:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tortugan Allen, this wouldn't have anything to do with not listening to good 'ole Viktor Vegas and going ahead to try to gank my dominix, resulting in losing a couple of rigged ships, would it?
Considering I haven't played much (if at all) in the past two weeks, and I despise station games on top of that, I could safely say that isn't the case. Furthermore, I could care less what happens to peoples' ships when they don't follow the rules of engagement.
Originally by: Tortugan Boosting local rep by the degree you're suggesting would remove the viability of plated setups. Additionally, I think you underestimate the drawbacks of RR- as soon as your RR gets jammed, or you move out of their short range, you're basically screwed. IMO the system is fairly well balanced as is, and there's no need for this change.
What degree am I suggesting? I don't recall suggesting anything except there was no reason to use a local rep when RR is involved. And I'm not thinking local rep needs a boost in effectiveness (maybe a shorter interval, but nothing more), but RR does need a nerf. How big the nerf would have to be I cannot say.
As for jamming, I don't think it's that much of an issue if the ships aren't significantly outnumbered. Running out of cap or being neuted is far more likely, and hits local rep harder than remote rep because of the high activation cost. Oh, and RR doesn't require 2300 powergrid. It's hard to reap the benefits of a LAR when you can't fit one.
But it looks like nobody but me sees the validity of my concerns, so apparently everyone likes tedious, boring, predictable BS blobs... That, or people don't want to lose their security blanket. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
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Tortugan
F9X
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Posted - 2009.08.03 03:54:00 -
[21]
My mistake- I thought you were involved in the Priv blob that came after me :)
Contrary to what you seem to be arguing, I think that RR adds quite a bit of unpredictability to engagements- EVERYTHING in Eve has a viable counter- and factoring in whether someone will bring RR in their fleet and/or how much they'll bring set up in what way (cap boosters vs rechargers, tanked, or max RR etc) makes setting up your fleet a lot more exciting. For instance, my corporation and friends often mess around in Jita looking for fights, and frequently fight people who use multiple remote reppers to help them kill us. On some occasions, we bring ECM to jam out the RR, on others, we fit to gank through their RR, occasionally we neut, and sometimes, we shoot the repper. Take away RR and you do a lot more than just boost local rep- you take away a lot of variety, and one of the main tactics that small gangs can use to fight larger blobs.
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Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard |
Zostera
Minmatar Honour Bound
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Posted - 2009.08.03 12:47:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Allen Ramses Has anyone considered how flawed RR is in comparison to its local counterpart? Could it be why RR BSs are so prevalent?
Remote reps in large fleets are prevalent simply because you can focus a significant amount of repair on one ship to counter very high incoming damage, far more than is possible with a local rep. Particularly important when working on a gunned POS at close range for example.
The natural counter to this is EWAR and consequent breaking of the collective spider tank. Added to this vulnerablity is the increased complexity of managing broadcasts and general fleet skill required to coordiante the remote reps effectively.
Zos |
159Pinky
Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2009.08.03 13:17:00 -
[23]
Not supported, imo systems is well balanced today. If you want to solo pvp I suggest you look at Garmons' movies.
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Kahega Amielden
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.08.03 16:14:00 -
[24]
Quote: Remote reps in large fleets are prevalent simply because you can focus a significant amount of repair on one ship to counter very high incoming damage, far more than is possible with a local rep. Particularly important when working on a gunned POS at close range for example.
This is why RRs already have an inherent advantage. They don't need ridiculously low fitting requirements to be competitive with local reps.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:46:00 -
[25]
Originally by: 159Pinky Not supported, imo systems is well balanced today. If you want to solo pvp I suggest you look at Garmons' movies.
Privateers? solo pvp? i think they love stations too much for that.
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Arous Drephius
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Posted - 2009.08.03 18:56:00 -
[26]
Wait, Privateers complaining about remote reps?
Pot, meet kettle.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.03 23:26:00 -
[27]
I'm so glad I recently joined Privateers for roaming HiSec wars, and with the added bonus of nobody taking me seriously .
My main problem is with the amount of local performance vs remote performance in relation to the power required to utilize such performance. In every other system, there is a simple rule; the more powerful the module, the more power must be dedicated to it. If RR is to fall into this category, one of the following conditions must be met.
1) If RR is to remain more effective than a local rep, it must have higher fitting requirements than a local rep.
or
2) If RR is to remain with substantially less fitting requirements, it must also be substantially less effective than a local rep.
That's all there is to it. The possible drawbacks of RR do not invalidate this.
Otherwise, what's to stop someone from rigging an RR into the internal of his ship and pointing the emitters at his armor plates? It would certainly be better than having a LAR equipped. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.08.04 01:19:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Allen Ramses Otherwise, what's to stop someone from rigging an RR into the internal of his ship and pointing the emitters at his armor plates? It would certainly be better than having a LAR equipped.
The fact that the game mechanics don't allow it? Remember, realism is only one factor, and a secondary one at that. You could make the same argument about remote sensor boosters or remote ECCM, but nobody claims those are too good. The reason people like RR is because while you don't need a 50k scan res, tanking 50k DPS is quite useful. People use RR because it scales up by fleet size (and is the only form of tanking to do so), not because the individual module is more efficient.
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159Pinky
Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2009.08.04 07:54:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Allen Ramses I'm so glad I recently joined Privateers for roaming HiSec wars, and with the added bonus of nobody taking me seriously .
My main problem is with the amount of local performance vs remote performance in relation to the power required to utilize such performance. In every other system, there is a simple rule; the more powerful the module, the more power must be dedicated to it. If RR is to fall into this category, one of the following conditions must be met.
1) If RR is to remain more effective than a local rep, it must have higher fitting requirements than a local rep.
or
2) If RR is to remain with substantially less fitting requirements, it must also be substantially less effective than a local rep.
That's all there is to it. The possible drawbacks of RR do not invalidate this.
Otherwise, what's to stop someone from rigging an RR into the internal of his ship and pointing the emitters at his armor plates? It would certainly be better than having a LAR equipped.
Don't forget that if you fit one or more RR you'll have to drop weapons on certain ships cause they use your weapon slots. Moreover you'll lose a mid slot as well, cause you'll want to fit an ECCM module to prevent hostiles from breaking your rep. Furthermore that RR will be running a long time whilst repping your friendlies. Thus if we're doing a battles that last only 15 min, you'll be using a lot of cap that'll only go into helping other players.
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steave435
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.08.04 12:50:00 -
[30]
Quote: That's all there is to it. The possible drawbacks of RR do not invalidate this.
Yes they do. Modules that require people to work together SHOULD be far better then modules that do not. In addition to that, a high slot is worth alot...on many ships, that's a gun you're not fitting, and on others, it means not fitting a neut or something similar.
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