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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:19:00 -
[1]
Hey guys, probably this matter has alredy been discussed, but i didn't find corresponding thread using eve-search.
Currently hardeners in *active* state are affected by compensation skills (couple of guys checked it using missiles on both TQ and SiSi - so it's not bug with indication, compensations really affect resistance). We don't care much about armor hardeners (in the end of the day, most of us who use armor-tank already have lvl 4-5 of compensations), but couple of my friends would like to get official c/d from CCP before starting to train shield compensation. Is it intended or bug?
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theZJ
Caldari Suicidal Trainingscamp
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:48:00 -
[2]
So if this is true, that would mean, with compensation IV, an Invul II would give you additional 12% omni resistances? wtf Siege Warfare Link anyone?
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2009.08.03 16:30:00 -
[3]
Well... just checked using my noobie skills (on TQ). Unarmed ceptor, t1 thermal and EM hardeners, compensations lvl 1.
Couple of formulae used: Total Resistance = 1 - (1 - Base) * (1 - Hard * (1 + Boni)) which is easily transformed into: Boni = (1 - (1 - Total Resistance)/(1 - Base))/Hard - 1
EM: 51.3036799712% with t1 hard Therm: 61.042943977% with t1 hard
(1-(1-0.61042943977)/(1-0.2))/0.5-1: 0.026073599 (1-(1-0.513036799712)/(1-0))/0.5-1: 0.026073599
That is, bonus was approx. 2.6% for lvl1 compensations for both hardeners. I have neither enough skills to equip t2 nor desire to train 2+ lvls of compensation, so would be glad if anybody'd confirm my numbers.
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Linas IV
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Posted - 2009.08.03 16:42:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Linas IV on 03/08/2009 16:44:26 Edited by: Linas IV on 03/08/2009 16:42:56 I checked it aswell, and its true. The off-Bonus is multiplied on top of the normal Bonus when activated
For example a single T2 Armor hardener will give you about 59.8% instead of 55% resist (with compensation skill 4) But the additional Multiplier is Stacking Penalised it seems. Therfore it only matters as long as you have only one hardener on the resist.
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2009.08.03 16:49:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 03/08/2009 16:50:56 For t1 invul i have 7.8% higher than usual for all resists:
EM:(1-(1-0.269555199568)/(1-0))/0.25-1: 0.078220798 Exp:(1-(1-0.707822079827)/(1-0.6))/0.25-1: 0.078220798 Kin:(1-(1-0.561733119741)/(1-0.4))/0.25-1: 0.078220798 Therm:(1-(1-0.415644159654)/(1-0.2))/0.25-1: 0.078220798
Such mathematics is too fuzzy for me...
What's funny is that t1 invul bonus (0.078220798, 7.8%) is exactly 3 times greater than t1 hardener bonus (0.026073599, 2.6%).
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Linas IV
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Posted - 2009.08.03 16:53:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Linas IV on 03/08/2009 16:56:24 yeah its the 3% Bonus - Stacking Penalty vs. the Active Bonus of the Invul. (3%*0.86=2.6)
You got the shield compensation Skills on lvl 3?
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2009.08.03 16:58:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 03/08/2009 17:00:10 No, all lvl 1.
You did not get my point. I'm using the same ship, the same character. Profile hardeners get the boost to efficiency 3 times less than invulnerability fields to (+2.6% vs +7.8%).
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Linas IV
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:12:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Linas IV on 03/08/2009 17:13:27
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess EM:(1-(1-0.269555199568)/(1-0))/0.25-1: 0.078220798
There is an Error in your calculation, it shoud be:
1-((1-0.269555199568)/(1-0.25))= 0.02607 same bonus as on the hardener.
(took EM for the 0% base-resist, simplifies the calculation)
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:33:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 03/08/2009 17:37:25 The problem is that i tried to use hardener's resist as base, but now it seems that you're right. All these compensations are applied. just with stacking penalty.
1xT1 EM: 1-(1-0)*(1-0.5)*(1-0.03*0.86911998) = 51.30368% (51.3036799712% ingame) 2xT1 EM: 1-(1-0)*(1-0.5)*(1-0.5*0.86911998)*(1-0.03*0.570583141)*(1-0.03*0.282955152) = 72.4478285% (72.4478285259% ingame) 1xT1 Invul, EM: 1-(1-0)*(1-0.25)*(1-0.03*0.86911998) = 26.95552% (26.9555199568% ingame) 1xT1 Invul, Exp: 1-(1-0.6)*(1-0.25)*(1-0.03*0.86911998) = 70.782208% (70.7822079827% ingame) 2xT1 Invul, EM: 1-(1-0)*(1-0.25)*(1-0.25*0.86911998)*(1-0.03*0.570583141)*(1-0.03*0.282955152) = 42.790653% (42.7906530605% ingame) 2xT1 Invul, Exp: 1-(1-0.6)*(1-0.25)*(1-0.25*0.86911998)*(1-0.03*0.570583141)*(1-0.03*0.282955152) = 77.1162612% (77.1162612242% ingame)
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Linas IV
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:47:00 -
[10]
Still leaves the question: Intended or not?
WTB: Dev statement ^^
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Hockenheim
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.08.04 07:44:00 -
[11]
So, is it bug or feature? CCP please respond :)
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rubico1337
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Posted - 2009.08.04 08:29:00 -
[12]
wow, ive confirmed this on TQ
with 0% base EM resist and EM shield comp of 3 this is what i get
no hardener fit 0% resist photon scattering t2 inactive 9% resist photon scattering t2 ACTIVE 58.5199% resist
this has to be a bug, it should be 55%
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Dasfry
Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.04 09:07:00 -
[13]
Originally by: rubico1337 wow, ive confirmed this on TQ
with 0% base EM resist and EM shield comp of 3 this is what i get
no hardener fit 0% resist photon scattering t2 inactive 9% resist photon scattering t2 ACTIVE 58.5199% resist
this has to be a bug, it should be 55%
It does not seem right.
But this could also be looked at as hurting u as well.
Lets say you have 2 EM hardeners... wouldn't u be suffering from 4 penalties?
Eve would see 4 buffs to EM, and penalize it 4 times. Instead of 2. *********** Military Tactics Dasfry, CEO Demio's Corporation
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Linas IV
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Posted - 2009.08.04 09:15:00 -
[14]
It only really matters as long as you have only 1 Hardener on the resist, i.e. its awesome for tri-hards on armor or a single Invul on shield buffer tanks.
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2009.08.04 09:53:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 04/08/2009 09:56:39
Originally by: Linas IV It only really matters as long as you have only 1 Hardener on the resist, i.e. its awesome for tri-hards on armor or a single Invul on shield buffer tanks.
It really matters even with any number of hardeners. We train 5th lvl of spec to get plus 2% to damage, here we get these percents 'for free'. It's awesome not for tri-hard setups (where you will get 15% for each resist), but for setups which include only 1-2 invulnerability fields (e.g. solo-curse, usually it has one - you will get multiple 15% resists, and it's cool even when they're stacking penalized).
As easy explanation how this affects your resists (to all the guys who don't want to dig in math too much) - you get free 15% 'virtual' hardener per each real hardener installed, if your compensations are at lvl 5. Yes, they are subject for stacking penalty as usual (on per-resist basis, not per-module - say, 1 invul and 1 photon scattering will grant you with 2+2 effects for EM and 1+1 for all other resists), but more powerful effects are penalized as usual anyway, and these 15% just become weaker with higher number of hardeners.
E.g. (compensations: all lvl 0/ all lvl 5): T2 Invul - 30%/39.1% (you get 13% less damage) T2 Hard - 55%/60.9% (same, 13% less damage - only number of hardeners matters) 2xT2 Invuls - 48.3%/54.7% (12.44%) 2xT2 Hards - 76.5%/79.4% (12.44%) 3xT2 Invuls - 57.1%/59.8% (6.19%)
I wouldn't say that 12% or 6% low enough to neglect.
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Dasfry
Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.04 10:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 04/08/2009 09:59:50
Originally by: Linas IV It only really matters as long as you have only 1 Hardener on the resist, i.e. its awesome for tri-hards on armor or a single Invul on shield buffer tanks.
It really matters even with any number of hardeners. We train 5th lvl of spec to get plus 2% to damage, here we get these percents 'for free'. It's awesome not for tri-hard setups (where you will get 15% for each resist), but for setups which include only 1-2 invulnerability fields (e.g. solo-curse, usually it has one - you will get multiple 15% resists, and it's cool even when they're stacking penalized).
As easy explanation how this affects your resists (to all the guys who don't want to dig in math too much) - you get free 15% 'virtual' hardener per each real hardener installed, if your compensations are at lvl 5. Yes, they are subject for stacking penalty as usual (on per-resist basis, not per-module - say, 1 invul and 1 photon scattering will grant you with 2+2 effects for EM and 1+1 for all other resists), but more powerful effects are penalized as usual anyway, and these 15% just become weaker with higher number of hardeners.
E.g. (compensations: all lvl 0/ all lvl 5): T2 Invul - 30%/39.1% (you get 13% less damage of any damage type) T2 Hard - 55%/60.9% (same, 13% less damage for selected damage type - only number of hardeners matters) 2xT2 Invuls - 48.3%/54.7% (12.44%) 2xT2 Hards - 76.5%/79.4% (12.44%) 3xT2 Invuls - 57.1%/59.8% (6.19%)
I wouldn't say that 12% or 6% are low enough to neglect.
Btw:
Quote: Thank you for your bugreport - ID:82728 Title: Compensation bonus is not removed once hardeners become active. We are already aware of this problem, and have added your bugreport to the existing issue in our defect tracking system.
Should we consider it as official statement?
These numbers may not sound large. But just consider this.
You need to do double damage to break even against 50% resists You need to do Quadruple damage to break even against 75% resists You need to do 5x damage to break even against 80% resists You need to do 10x damage vs. 90% resists You need to do 20x damage vs. 95% resists You need to do 40x damage vs. 97.5% resists You need to do 50x damage vs. 98% resists you need to do 100x damage vs. 99% resists *********** Military Tactics Dasfry, CEO Demio's Corporation
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OKtha Jarin
Gallente Liga Freier Terraner
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Posted - 2009.08.06 01:45:00 -
[17]
Does this also affect active Armor Hardeners? if not im realy ****ed and if it does, i want somekind of Invu Field for Armor tanks too
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VC General
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Posted - 2009.08.06 05:34:00 -
[18]
I think this is a good thing, if it sticks. The shield compensation skills as they are now are pointless, because active hardeners are far superior to passive with shield tanks. It would be nice if people like me who trained them when I was a month old and didn't know better didn't waste those SP. They should probably lower the bonus for active a bit though, so armor tankers don't complain about not having an active omni resist mod.
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2009.08.06 08:37:00 -
[19]
Originally by: OKtha Jarin Does this also affect active Armor Hardeners? if not im realy ****ed and if it does, i want somekind of Invu Field for Armor tanks too
Sure it does.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.06 10:05:00 -
[20]
Originally by: VC General I think this is a good thing, if it sticks. The shield compensation skills as they are now are pointless, because active hardeners are far superior to passive with shield tanks. It would be nice if people like me who trained them when I was a month old and didn't know better didn't waste those SP. They should probably lower the bonus for active a bit though, so armor tankers don't complain about not having an active omni resist mod.
Good thing? It make passive hardeners even less useful as active get an extra boost. Maybe passive tanking need a boost.
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Hockenheim
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.08.06 11:23:00 -
[21]
Any news from CCP? :)
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theZJ
Caldari Suicidal Trainingscamp
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Posted - 2009.08.06 12:43:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 06/08/2009 09:03:26
Originally by: OKtha Jarin Does this also affect active Armor Hardeners? if not im realy ****ed and if it does, i want somekind of Invu Field for Armor tanks too
Sure it does.
Status of bug i've filled has been updated.
Quote: Status: Fixed in: TEX 1.4
Sooo soon we may get fixed build on SiSi.
So shieldtanks will become even weaker in comparision to armor tanks, if our invuls lose some more resists - and pvp armor tanks virtually lose nothing since there is no active EANM anyway, but they perform well enough anyway
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Stealthbug
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Posted - 2009.08.06 15:54:00 -
[23]
Quote: So shieldtanks will become even weaker in comparision to armor tanks, if our invuls lose some more resists - and pvp armor tanks virtually lose nothing since there is no active EANM anyway, but they perform well enough anyway
kind of ironic considering i would imagine tanking with one's shields, which cover the entire ship and recharge over time, would be inherently better than tanking with armor plates that are attached to parts of the ship.
unfortunately this is not the case unless you are a Drake or Nighthawk =/
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2009.08.06 16:12:00 -
[24]
Originally by: theZJ So shieldtanks will become even weaker in comparision to armor tanks, if our invuls lose some more resists - and pvp armor tanks virtually lose nothing since there is no active EANM anyway, but they perform well enough anyway
They will become weaker compared to current situation, but this bug was introduced recently, it hasn't been here for ages.
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theZJ
Caldari Suicidal Trainingscamp
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Posted - 2009.08.06 22:48:00 -
[25]
I can has more PG on my Nighthawk in exchange plz? =)
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