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Gramtar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:28:00 -
[1]
This proposal offers one approach to balancing the rewards of mission running in high security space versus ratting in lowsec and 0.0. CCP plans on revamping 0.0 later this year or next, and I thought it would be beneficial to offer them some ideas from the perspective of a long term resident of 0.0.
The problem: According to my research, the isk/hour earned running level 4 highsec combat missions on a single account is roughly 20M/hour, and can be accomplished with a 3-4 month old character. The 20M figure may or may not include salvaging dense missions, and the isk generated from items obtainable from various corporate LP stores. There is nominally no risk associated with this activity, at least if you are a member of an npc corp, and no downtime. Some empire residents claim the actual figure can be much higher - 30M/hour.
Life in 0.0 is not insanely profitable in and of itself. During my three years in EVE, I made most of my isk through importation of T2 modules to 0.0 and small scale, select production (mostly rigs). I have earned a substantial amount of isk ratting, though, and am quite familiar with that activity. I haven't mined since GoonSwarm resided in Syndicate, and buy orders for Zydrine were 4800 isk.
The problem with 0.0 is most of the systems in it are "worthless". The gates and belts won't spawn rats with bounties above 950K (if that high), they won't get Officer spawns, and the asteroid belts won't produce the ABC ores. NPC 0.0 has missions available, but unless you are performing missions for a pirate faction, there are few good reasons to do level 4 missions. The "low security rating" differential payed in terms of mission rewards does not come close, in my opinion, to offset the risk, either in 0.0 or lowsec.
In short, if you were advising a player as to the most profitable career they could undertake in the short term, you'd suggest level 4 combat missions in highsec.
How we got here: CCP made EVE a better game. They made warp to 0, and got rid of bookmark sets. They eliminated the T2 BPO lottery. They even eliminated the lottery of what rewards storyline missions offered, and made every mission you ran for npc corps count for something by creating the LP store. They added rigs to give players more means to fit ships. They added half a dozen new regions, the Drone regions. They eliminated the value of holding a handful of specific systems by largely eliminating static complexes (there are still a few left, believe it or not). They significantly improved POS warfare. For those who view it as a mind numbing slog today, we once had towers with 5 day stront timers that would instapop an interceptor at 350 km.
The net effects of all of these things, today, is highsec is a more profitable place to live than ever before. The drone regions and their resulting mineral yields crashed both high and mid end mineral prices. Eliminating npc shuttles, changing rat/mission loot yields, and expanding the size of T1 unnamed module drops from 5 m3 to as high as 50 m3 sent Tritanium prices through the roof. Mining veld in highsec in a hulk is reportedly worth 5-7M isk/hour and thats direct to cargo mining/docking not into a jetcan.
More relevant to this discussion, the value of time spent ratting and mining in 0.0 has sunk enormously since I began playing in 2006. Pirate faction module drops are now subject to price pressures from equivalent (often better) highsec navy faction LP rewards. The contract prices on a Shadow Serpentis Mag Field Stabilizer seem higher than those for one from the Gallente Navy LP store, but the module stats are identical. Only deadspace loot has retained its value.
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Grista
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:29:00 -
[2]
The last time I mined in EVE was in Syndicate. You could comfortably make about 20M / hour in an Osprey ninja mining crokite, assuming a hostile didn't come along and pop you or your jetcan. I payed for my first ratting battleship that way, running the Zydrine up the pipe to empire in a frigate and selling it to 4800 isk buy orders. Zydrine buy orders are now in the 1400-1500 range. Thanks CCP and drone regions. Megacyte has crashed too, but by my guess only about 50% compared to the 70% suffered by Zydrine.
I've never spent much time in lowsec, aside from transiting. I never understood the appeal of losing sec status in PvP when you could do the same in 0.0 without recourse. That said, my view of lowsec is that it's the worst of all worlds. Mid range ore mining crashed along with high ends. The only thing lowsec has that highsec doesn't are level 5 missions, and perhaps better access to wormholes. From what I know, level 5 missions aren't particular popular, but please weigh in if you have knowledge in that regard. CCP did improve lowsec with Apocrypha by adding some BS rats (you could get faction cruisers there even back in the day). I feel lowsec still has a long way to go to entice more than "pirates" and capital ship producers from setting up shop there.
Some words about exploration: This has been a great boon to those who choose to invest the time, skillpoints, and effort. The days of fighting over static plexes are largely gone, even though Goons nominally live in Delve today partly because of a disagreement over one of the few existing static plexes.
That said, should a player have to run around different constellations scanning for various sites in order to make a good living in 0.0? Ratting has already been made more difficult by eliminating the ability to see npc's on the directional scanner. You can even argue that high belt count systems are much inferior to, say, 8 belt systems because you can't easily check the belts for faction or officer spawns as a result.
Exploration, while very profitable, is best exploited by those who can play for several hours without interruption, have taken the time to learn about how to do it efficiently, and ideally work with other players or have multiple accounts in order to tank the most difficult encounters. Although there are many stories about running escalations across several systems that yielded nothing in the end, I feel Exploration as a whole is a largely well balanced activity today. It's just not the preferred activity for all.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:30:00 -
[3]
Approaches to my solution: I specifically want to avoid nerfing highsec activities. I don't have a personal issue with people who don't want to leave highsec. They obviously make up the majority of players in this game, and I don't believe it would be beneficial to the future of EVE to "force" them into lowsec or 0.0 to maintain the isk/hour they are accustomed to.
If you nerf mission running by, say, 50%, then someone's 6 month goal becomes a 1 year goal. That's a good way to get people to quit the game. While EVE certainly doesn't need 300K more accounts to continue to be viable, it won't do well with 50K less. Therefore, my approach is how to make time spent in lowsec and 0.0 PvE more valuable, rather than time spent in highsec PvE less valuable.
Feel free to rant about how EVE would be a much better game without all those empire pubbies. Suggest how there should be no highsec at all, and everything should be all lowsec/0.0 all the time, because EVE should be a hard core gamer's game and all that. I'll ignore you, since this view ignores reality. Most EVE players live in highsec and they like it that way.
Ratting: Ratting as a means of income was made more difficult in late 2006 - early 2007 when off grid npc ships were removed from the directional scanner. Prior to then, you could enter a system and quickly check for officers, faction or hauler spawns, or even to just see the value of spawns currently up. I suppose CCP felt this was too easy, as I don't recall a specific reason for that change. I don't have a big problem things as they are, although it seems to me that around the same time or later the rate at which rats would warp to different belts seemed to increase. This makes locating valuable spawns more difficult in high (15+) belt count systems.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:31:00 -
[4]
The thing that makes most 0.0 worthless is its "truesec" rating. Outside of pirate sov npc space, truesec determines the maximum value of BS spawns, whether or not officers can spawn, and to my knowledge the frequency of faction spawns. Lower truesec is better. Change how truesec functions and you change the value of lowsec and 0.0 space when it comes to ratting. Here is my proposal for that change, breaking down the values into 5 categories:
1) Lowsec - increase max BS spawn to triple 1.1M bounties. Essentially make all of lowsec roughly equivalent to what you can get in an -0.4 system today, including any related increase in faction and hauler spawns.
2) All of 0.0 - eliminate all spawns that don't have a battleship. Pruning cruiser spawns out of even perfect truesec systems takes hours and it's completely ridiculous.
3) "poor" truesec 0.0 (roughly 0.0 to -0.3) - Increase max value BS spawn to triple 1.4M.
4) "fair" truesec 0.0 (roughly -0.4 to -0.6) - Increase max value BS spawn to triple 1.85. Permit officer spawns. Basically the same as existing "perfect" truesec. Decrease max respawn time of a cleared spawn to 20 minutes (I believe it is currently 30 min or higher).
5) "good" truesec 0.0 (roughly -0.7 to -1.0) - As above and eliminate spawns below 950K. Significantly increase (triple or quadruple) the rate of hauler and faction spawns. Decrease max respawn time from a cleared spawn to 15 minutes.
I suggest increasing the chance of Officer spawns, as well. Since I've seen exactly one Officer in the 3 years I've ratted, it's hard for me to say by how much. I would need information that isn't currently available, specifically how they currently spawn, whether or not it's true they are more common just after downtime (something which should be obviously be changed if accurate), how long they stay up, whether particular officers favor one region over another, what % that spawn are killed, etc.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:31:00 -
[5]
This is one part of the solution. Nominally, macro ratters aka ninja farmers would stand to benefit the most from these changes by themselves. Ideally, players should be able to improve the quality of space they hold. For that reason, I suggest the introduction of two new items:
1) Spacial Vortex Generator - A POS module, anchored at a control tower, that effectively improves the truesec of that system by -0.4 (basically, one level that I've described above). Requires Sov 2. Fitting requirements - 750K grid and 4000 cpu (same as a jump bridge module, requires a large control tower).
2) Spacial Vortex outpost upgrade - A permanent outpost upgrade that gives the system perfect truesec. Cost in NPC goods 2 to 5 billion isk.
In addition to the truesec changes, this would give incentive to hold and improve space. Suddenly, "worthless" regions like Fade might see a population increase.
What alliances stand to gain the most if these changes were made? Pretty much everyone except GoonSwarm. The reason is simple. Most of Delve is broken. You can get triple 1.85M spawns in systems that arenÆt supposed to generate them. You can get Officer spawns in virtually every system, regardless of published truesec. We knew this years before we finally conquered the region, and itÆs a big part of why we arenÆt currently seeking to conquer other space. ItÆs why an alliance of > 5000 that formerly occupied 5 regions, fits comfortably into two. ItÆs also why you donÆt often see Goon ratters in NPC Delve, despite itÆs perfect truesec (as all pirate NPC sov systems enjoy). If Delve were ôfixedö as a result of these changes, I would have no opposition to it.
In my view, all of 0.0 and lowsec needs a big boost to bring it in line with the most stable, lucrative PvE activity û high sec mission running. There are other, reasonable, ideas to fix what I see as a glaring discrepancy. Some suggest just increasing rat bounties. Others suggest they should drop tags which have to be sold at DED stations. I like this solution the best as it gives the most benefit to those that hold space and would seek to improve it.
I have other ideas in mind to ôfixö mining and 0.0/lowsec mission running, which I may or may not share in the coming week. Suffice it to say that 0.0 mining is much worse today than when I began EVE in 2006, as are 0.0 missions in general.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:32:00 -
[6]
Sorry for the alt in the middle.
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El Liptonez
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Posted - 2009.08.03 16:31:00 -
[7]
Generally support that idea, although I think triple BS spawns in every belt will net you too much ISK, considering loot and salvage. Pretty sure that this truesec rating needs to be looked at though. I noticed this since I live in Great Wildlands, and the ratting there is utter crap. I think there's only about 5 systems with a rating of -0.5 or better, like 10 that are better than -0.2 at all. Sorry, no. Not in a 0.0 region. It really feels like CCP forgot that GW is not an NPC region like Venal. Without chaining mining Veldspar in empire would get me more isk for sure.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 16:51:00 -
[8]
Originally by: El Liptonez Generally support that idea, although I think triple BS spawns in every belt will net you too much ISK, considering loot and salvage.
You'd have to chain a long while to achieve that. I don't suggest making every BS spawn a triple spawn, just eliminating cruiser spawns from 0.0, improving what the best spawns in systems will be, and eliminating lower value BS spawns from the best truesec systems.
For those who don't rat - BS spawns can be single (most people clear these), double, and triple.
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Whitmoore
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:05:00 -
[9]
I support it.
Atm, anything below 0.4 isnt of interest to most people. Not enough profit to risk your ship.
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Facial Wipe
Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:47:00 -
[10]
Oh good god supported over and over and over, couldn't agree more.
>.< I hate cruiser spawns
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Galler FLAke
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:59:00 -
[11]
I support this. Even in delve with broken truesec it can take hours and hours of pruning garbage frig/cruiser spawns (with multiple accounts) to get enough battleships in system to compete with high sec mission running. (Then 15 minutes later some battlestars idiot comes through and breaks all your chains looking for faction spawns.) Any 0.0 region without broken truesec must be completely worthless.
I don't see why most of 0.0 should be less profitable for the average player than nearly risk free highsec space. I think these changes could go a long way to fixing that problem with a minimal amount of work from ccp.
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Phorashi
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 18:27:00 -
[12]
I'm gonna support this on the **** empire platform.
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Vorick
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 18:33:00 -
[13]
Supported. 0.0 (particularly poor truesec 0.0) really needs the buff.
In regards to a system full of chained triple BS spawns, remember that you can still only kill them so fast, and you're unlikely to be using a multi-billion isk tricked out DPS ship in 0.0 space. |
Fille Balle
Dissolution Of Eternity
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Posted - 2009.08.03 19:18:00 -
[14]
A goon? With a good idea for balancing? Dang, I thought I just quit drinking. Ah well, have some support!
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Mr LaboratoryRat
Confederation of DuckTape Lovers
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Posted - 2009.08.03 20:17:00 -
[15]
How about a pos mod/station upgrade that can give the sythem more belts? Or just give all 0.0 sytems a minimum of 10 belts.
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Rotnac
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:49:00 -
[16]
This is an excellent idea. Its a very level-headed approach to acknowledge that many empire dwellers will never leave empire - just quit if pushed too hard.
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Red Raider
Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2009.08.03 22:18:00 -
[17]
I like it a lot!
A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out. |
Slave 2739FKZ
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Posted - 2009.08.03 23:01:00 -
[18]
First of all props on a well cosntructed OP. Certainlly this seems to be THE major issue in game balance right now, and probably ahs been for a while.
But is a complex issue, and for real analysis we lack hard data, only tidbits have been released on economic reports and some posts by devs on the forum. For example how much weight have the drone regions in high end minerals wasn't well known until a 'recent' post in a MD thread.
There are a lot of factors on how much money you can make where, and how all that is balances (isk vs. loot etc.). But the basic premises of the thread are right, and things must be looked at, as it stands 0.0 can make you a lot of money but is not very casual friendlly and the average player can't comepte against lvl4 mission running, only the mroe hardcore players or those in advanced possitions (alliance leadership) or with nice regions (R64s) can have a very high income (and then a lot is used on expensive stuff like poses, capitals & crapp).
I don't support the details, as only CCP can know & balance it, for example, if you increase a lot the officer/deadspace spawns the items would decrease their value in the market.
But it's time for them to takle this issue at once, as is the most pressing one. hence I support the thread for bringing discussion with CCP. And I hope this is tied to the incoming SOV changes someway or an other.
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m3rb3aSt
Advanced Component Research Enterprise GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.04 00:03:00 -
[19]
i like the idea a lot!
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theZJ
Suicidal Trainingscamp
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Posted - 2009.08.04 01:58:00 -
[20]
Agreed. Before Delve War III, I ratted many hours in Systems like GR-J8B, with Truesec just below 0.5 IIRc. The spawns were ... unsatisfying. You were PRETTY happy about 1.2 mil double battleship spawns, forget about triple 1.85 or faction-BS-spawns.
Supported... tho you are one of those who cast me out there
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TR1 MASTER
aa mining missions and R n D
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Posted - 2009.08.04 02:23:00 -
[21]
this needs to be done, that or take off the timer on clone jumping so it easier to buy a new ship if your unlucky and fail than having to spend at least 1 day in highsec doing lvl 4s if you sec status allows it.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.04 06:08:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Gramtar
If you nerf mission running by, say, 50%, then someone's 6 month goal becomes a 1 year goal. That's a good way to get people to quit the game. While EVE certainly doesn't need 300K more accounts to continue to be viable, it won't do well with 50K less. Therefore, my approach is how to make time spent in lowsec and 0.0 PvE more valuable, rather than time spent in highsec PvE less valuable.
I think that nerfing mission payout will not even really work at nerfing mission payout .
The number of mission runners would be reduced, LP value would climb, some of the loot/salvage would climb, so in the end probably the net change in reward would be small for those capable of running mission fast. Teh only people to suffer would be those new to level 4 missions.
Quote:
Ratting: Ratting as a means of income was made more difficult in late 2006 - early 2007 when off grid npc ships were removed from the directional scanner. Prior to then, you could enter a system and quickly check for officers, faction or hauler spawns, or even to just see the value of spawns currently up. I suppose CCP felt this was too easy, as I don't recall a specific reason for that change. I don't have a big problem things as they are, although it seems to me that around the same time or later the rate at which rats would warp to different belts seemed to increase. This makes locating valuable spawns more difficult in high (15+) belt count systems.
While not absolutely positive I think it was changed because of complexes and missions. It was too easy to scan a complex to see if the keyholder ship had spawned and too easy to scan a missioner to see what he was tanking.
Naturally now you scan the wrecks and again know what a missioner is tanking, so probably that was a secondary reason.
Can't recall any Dev comment about ratting and directional scanner while I vaguely recall some comment about the above mentioned two points and about lag using the scanner.
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159Pinky
Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2009.08.04 07:50:00 -
[23]
This is definatly an good ide to improve the isk/hr gain in low - null sec without destroying all high sec players' game
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Too Dangerous
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Posted - 2009.08.04 13:34:00 -
[24]
agree with this. very well though out.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.04 13:40:00 -
[25]
Despite the OP being a goon, I support this idea. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.08.04 14:24:00 -
[26]
Reduce empire isk faucets and the problem sorta fixes itself. |
Venomire
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.04 14:26:00 -
[27]
I don't rat, but I wouldn't mind seeing 0.0 (and lowsec) profitability increase for everyone.
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.08.04 14:26:00 -
[28]
Something really needs to be done about the imbalance Highsec Level 4 Missionrunning represents in contrast to other activities in EVE.
Most cogent well though out proposal I've heard.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
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Lucas Avidius
Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.08.04 16:16:00 -
[29]
This is the most well-written, well thought-out post I've read in this forum or any other forum related to isk balance, and it takes into account a lot of the real world issues that people face competing with level 4 high sec missions
Very much supported. Low sec and low end null sec need a boost, rather than simply nerfing level 4's again.
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Vio Geraci
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.04 18:22:00 -
[30]
I expect CCP will make some fixes to 0.0 as part of this next expansion, but I am worried that they will move too slowly, and too incrementally. Some major shifts are warranted. I think Alchemy fixed this in part by making there be more potential personal moons that aren't filthy lucre enough to be alliance controlled but are still worth enough to pay for a subscription. But still, there needs to be a rethinking of reasons for people to be in the belts in 0.0.
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Zinta Winter
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Posted - 2009.08.04 18:46:00 -
[31]
Jawhol commandant
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Dex Atherton
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Posted - 2009.08.04 22:15:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Dex Atherton on 04/08/2009 22:16:01 Supported.
I mostly rat in low sec because high sec gets too boring too quick. Adding BS spawns to low sec made ratting viable but I know I could make much more isk (without risk) by missioning in high sec.
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S'hara
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Posted - 2009.08.04 23:27:00 -
[33]
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Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
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Posted - 2009.08.05 00:15:00 -
[34]
I agree with the OP's assessment of the situation, but not his solution. Isk is plentiful enough in the game as it is, without simply printing more of it.
/Ben
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Kim Wilde
Covenant
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Posted - 2009.08.05 00:57:00 -
[35]
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MCHammerdad
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Posted - 2009.08.05 02:12:00 -
[36]
Can't believe I'm agreeing with a goon...
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Plutonian
Intransigent
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Posted - 2009.08.05 02:12:00 -
[37]
You're not going to believe this, but some guy who lives in 0.0 and rats to earn isk is on the forums saying that ratting in 0.0 should be buffed.
Can't imagine why he'd be saying such a thing though...
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2009.08.05 06:01:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Gramtar The thing that makes most 0.0 worthless is its "truesec" rating. Outside of pirate sov npc space, truesec determines the maximum value of BS spawns, whether or not officers can spawn, and to my knowledge the frequency of faction spawns. Lower truesec is better. Change how truesec functions and you change the value of lowsec and 0.0 space when it comes to ratting. Here is my proposal for that change, breaking down the values into 5 categories:
1) Lowsec - increase max BS spawn to triple 1.1M bounties. Essentially make all of lowsec roughly equivalent to what you can get in an -0.4 system today, including any related increase in faction and hauler spawns.
2) All of 0.0 - eliminate all spawns that don't have a battleship. Pruning cruiser spawns out of even perfect truesec systems takes hours and it's completely ridiculous.
3) "poor" truesec 0.0 (roughly 0.0 to -0.3) - Increase max value BS spawn to triple 1.4M.
4) "fair" truesec 0.0 (roughly -0.4 to -0.6) - Increase max value BS spawn to triple 1.85. Permit officer spawns. Basically the same as existing "perfect" truesec. Decrease max respawn time of a cleared spawn to 20 minutes (I believe it is currently 30 min or higher).
5) "good" truesec 0.0 (roughly -0.7 to -1.0) - As above and eliminate spawns below 950K. Significantly increase (triple or quadruple) the rate of hauler and faction spawns. Decrease max respawn time from a cleared spawn to 15 minutes.
I suggest increasing the chance of Officer spawns, as well. Since I've seen exactly one Officer in the 3 years I've ratted, it's hard for me to say by how much. I would need information that isn't currently available, specifically how they currently spawn, whether or not it's true they are more common just after downtime (something which should be obviously be changed if accurate), how long they stay up, whether particular officers favor one region over another, what % that spawn are killed, etc.
Support for this.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2009.08.05 06:06:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Gramtar This is one part of the solution. Nominally, macro ratters aka ninja farmers would stand to benefit the most from these changes by themselves. Ideally, players should be able to improve the quality of space they hold. For that reason, I suggest the introduction of two new items:
1) Spacial Vortex Generator - A POS module, anchored at a control tower, that effectively improves the truesec of that system by -0.4 (basically, one level that I've described above). Requires Sov 2. Fitting requirements - 750K grid and 4000 cpu (same as a jump bridge module, requires a large control tower).
2) Spacial Vortex outpost upgrade - A permanent outpost upgrade that gives the system perfect truesec. Cost in NPC goods 2 to 5 billion isk.
In addition to the truesec changes, this would give incentive to hold and improve space. Suddenly, "worthless" regions like Fade might see a population increase.
What alliances stand to gain the most if these changes were made? Pretty much everyone except GoonSwarm. The reason is simple. Most of Delve is broken. You can get triple 1.85M spawns in systems that arenÆt supposed to generate them. You can get Officer spawns in virtually every system, regardless of published truesec. We knew this years before we finally conquered the region, and itÆs a big part of why we arenÆt currently seeking to conquer other space. ItÆs why an alliance of > 5000 that formerly occupied 5 regions, fits comfortably into two. ItÆs also why you donÆt often see Goon ratters in NPC Delve, despite itÆs perfect truesec (as all pirate NPC sov systems enjoy). If Delve were ôfixedö as a result of these changes, I would have no opposition to it.
In my view, all of 0.0 and lowsec needs a big boost to bring it in line with the most stable, lucrative PvE activity û high sec mission running. There are other, reasonable, ideas to fix what I see as a glaring discrepancy. Some suggest just increasing rat bounties. Others suggest they should drop tags which have to be sold at DED stations. I like this solution the best as it gives the most benefit to those that hold space and would seek to improve it.
I have other ideas in mind to ôfixö mining and 0.0/lowsec mission running, which I may or may not share in the coming week. Suffice it to say that 0.0 mining is much worse today than when I began EVE in 2006, as are 0.0 missions in general.
No support to this. Boo to further consolidation and enrichment of existing 0,0 powerblocs through yet more POS construction.
But I strongly agree with your analysis and the first part of your solution. Lowsec and 0,0 need to become richer.
The biggest problem with your solution is that it makes mining an even worse choice for a non-macro player. Loot would rule the economy. But again, on balance I support. Combining the first part of your proposal with a proposal to reduce mission loot (while keeping mission income the same, by increasing mission rewards) and I would enthusiastically support
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Tiger's Spirit
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Posted - 2009.08.05 06:27:00 -
[40]
Not supported. Enough money have 0.0.
Risk ? Home system always blue. Look local noobs. Where is the most valuable minerals? Where is gas ? Where is commander items, wich have billion ISK prices ? In 0.0, nowhere else. So please, stop the cries.
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KosmikZA
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.08.05 06:32:00 -
[41]
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 10:07:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Plutonian You're not going to believe this, but some guy who lives in 0.0 and rats to earn isk is on the forums saying that ratting in 0.0 should be buffed.
Can't imagine why he'd be saying such a thing though...
Heaven forbid that fighting over conquerable space should have some individual benefits for the players involved. Lets all stay in highsec and run infinite L4s forever instead.
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Sertan Deras
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:32:00 -
[43]
Supported.
I think it's telling that despite living 99% of my EVE life in 0.0, I don't make money there. I have a neutral L4 mission runner alt that I use to make my money. I've done straight comparisons, and the money available in L4 missions at no risk to yourself is unreal relative to what is available to the average player out in 0.0.
Any talk of 0.0 having tons of money because of moon minerals is stupid. The average player doesn't have the money or infrastructure to run a profitable moon mining chain.
Using officers as an argument is probably the worst counter argument to this yet. officers are just a big lottery, your chances of finding one are one in a million, and if you do, there is a very large chance you'll get a crap mod nobody wants. Rarely does someone find a Draclira's Cap Recharger, or one of the other multi-billion ISK mods. For that matter, with people realizing it's really dumb to spend the money on that stuff to put on a Titan or Mothership that is just going to die if it gets tackled anyway, the demand for those crazy expensive mods is dwindling.
Ratting is the best way for the everyday player to go out and spend a few hours making money in 0.0. The problem is that it's simply not as profitable as the risk free L4 mission running available in high sec. If you have a well trained Raven character, and another alt to loot and salvage all the wrecks, you can make a crazy amount of ISK between salvage, loot, mission rewards and rat bounties.
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Dramaticus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:37:00 -
[44]
Lets see. Would I rather
a) log in, run missions for 2 hours and make ~50m isk
or
b) log in, spend 6 hours clearing trash from belts in my harbinger/fighters combo and still not make 50m isk
Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan |
mynnna
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:37:00 -
[45]
Supported.
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Val Streth
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:40:00 -
[46]
I wish ratting was more profitable. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One hand on their junk and the other pounding their keyboard throwing Rifter after Rifter at us every day. |
Kalrand
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:43:00 -
[47]
Agreed.
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Vile rat
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:48:00 -
[48]
Absolutely supported.
I'd like to piggyback on this with the idea that faction mods should have random variable values that could make them a little worse or a little better than their LP store equivalents. Would put potential value on them and make them a bit more interesting.
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torpedan
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:50:00 -
[49]
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Kachiko Sama
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:50:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Kachiko Sama on 05/08/2009 16:50:34 Hey look, a cogent and well argued idea based on the simple premise that greater risk should bring greater reward. Let's do that.
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Qlanth
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:54:00 -
[51]
I am supporting this because it has always been my argument that risk should reflect reward.
Empire mission runners have no reason to leave highsec newbie corps. They can make as much if not more money than any 0.0 player with absolutely no risk, period.
Meanwhile my ratting system sees roaming hostile gangs as high as 40-70 people roll through it on a daily basis. (Hello, Triumvirate, Brick Squad, and Leguina Romana)
Please fix this.
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Oneiros Endlesse
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:55:00 -
[52]
Supporting this topic.
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christmascaveman
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:55:00 -
[53]
Supporting this topic.
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Razel Krieg
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Posted - 2009.08.05 17:11:00 -
[54]
Supported
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Zastrow J
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Posted - 2009.08.05 17:48:00 -
[55]
I will raise this topic at the sunday CSM meeting
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SpiderWebMayhem
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 17:55:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit Not supported. Enough money have 0.0.
Risk ? Home system always blue. Look local noobs. Where is the most valuable minerals? Where is gas ? Where is commander items, wich have billion ISK prices ? In 0.0, nowhere else. So please, stop the cries.
In highsec you never have to stop mining or ratting if someone comes into local. In 0.0 you do. In highsec you never have to worry about your mining ship getting blown up, or your mission running CNR getting ganked. In 0.0 you do. These have drastic affects on isk per hour. Not to mention if you do get ganked, your isk:hour plummets to compensate for a new ship.
AFK-mining veldspar in highsec is safer and more profitable than ninja-mining high ends in 0.0. Gas is worthless because drugs are used by a tiny fraction of people. And the logistics to manufacture drugs is obscene.
The drop rate for Officer spawns is microscopic compared to the number of people living in 0.0. The average ratter living in nullsec may well never see an officer spawn for the entire time they play Eve.
And yet, nullsec players have to constantly live with fighting for their territory. While you merrily pilot L4 missions in Empire with no fear of safety, most nullsec players spend a good portion of their time defending their homeland instead of making money (which involves, gasp, losing ships and therefore money). And when they do have time to make money? They have to put up with options that are worse than L4 missions in highsec or multiboxing veldspar mining hulks. Why should nullsec players be forced to endure the stupid POS grind and fleet fights only for mediocre money making opportunities?
Supporting this heartily. A buff is needed for all nullsec players.
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Zhongchao84
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Posted - 2009.08.05 17:56:00 -
[57]
Supported |
Urich Fiano
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 18:04:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit Not supported. Enough money have 0.0.
Risk ? Home system always blue. Look local noobs. Where is the most valuable minerals? Where is gas ? Where is commander items, wich have billion ISK prices ? In 0.0, nowhere else. So please, stop the cries.
You should probably read the OP before you try responding to it.
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Urich Fiano
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 18:11:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Plutonian You're not going to believe this, but some guy who lives in 0.0 and rats to earn isk is on the forums saying that ratting in 0.0 should be buffed.
Can't imagine why he'd be saying such a thing though...
Yes, clearly the merits of an idea depend on who is proposing it.
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Avoida
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Posted - 2009.08.05 18:56:00 -
[60]
I'll support this because I'd too would like to see "true" security status fixed.
I'd also ask that you add one thing to your change: Faction complex escalations never escalate to systems outside regions inhabited by that faction. i.e. Gurista complexes having this stupid habit of escalating to systems out in Drone Regions.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 20:16:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Gramtar 1) Lowsec - increase max BS spawn to triple 1.1M bounties. Essentially make all of lowsec roughly equivalent to what you can get in an -0.4 system today, including any related increase in faction and hauler spawns.
2) All of 0.0 - eliminate all spawns that don't have a battleship. Pruning cruiser spawns out of even perfect truesec systems takes hours and it's completely ridiculous.
3) "poor" truesec 0.0 (roughly 0.0 to -0.3) - Increase max value BS spawn to triple 1.4M.
4) "fair" truesec 0.0 (roughly -0.4 to -0.6) - Increase max value BS spawn to triple 1.85. Permit officer spawns. Basically the same as existing "perfect" truesec. Decrease max respawn time of a cleared spawn to 20 minutes (I believe it is currently 30 min or higher).
5) "good" truesec 0.0 (roughly -0.7 to -1.0) - As above and eliminate spawns below 950K. Significantly increase (triple or quadruple) the rate of hauler and faction spawns. Decrease max respawn time from a cleared spawn to 15 minutes.
I suggest increasing the chance of Officer spawns, as well. Since I've seen exactly one Officer in the 3 years I've ratted, it's hard for me to say by how much. I would need information that isn't currently available, specifically how they currently spawn, whether or not it's true they are more common just after downtime (something which should be obviously be changed if accurate), how long they stay up, whether particular officers favor one region over another, what % that spawn are killed, etc.
The only part I disagree with is increasing the chances of Faction and Officer spawns. The main effect of that would be to crash the market for faction items and reduce the reward for finding such a spawn, which does nothing to make 0.0 ratting more attractive as it puts us right back where we started.
Instead, make the spawns bigger. There's a current cap of up to 6 rats per spawn with up to half of those being battleships (although very occasionally the rats are bugged and put two spawns in the same belt) but there's really no obvious reason why for the higher-end truesec this couldn't be increased to 8 or 10 or even more and/or with the 'only half battleships' limit removed. Warping into a belt and being confronted by 10 Angel Seraphim or Blood Popes would not only make 0.0 ratting more lucrative, it would liven up the experience significantly.
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Kesslar Znel
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 20:26:00 -
[62]
I don't like the spatial vortex generator idea, though I'm not able at the moment to articulate exactly why I feel that way. The other measures I would support, along with a measure to have the client display truesec without needing to consult a third party application. If nothing else it would expose the more broken regions (in both directions) and increase the likelihood that they get fixed/rebalanced.
(Yes I am aware that this means Delve, and yes I'm aware that this means less money for me.)
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.08.05 20:34:00 -
[63]
CCP should conduct a more in-depth study of profit margins for level 4 missions in high sec and 0.0 ratting. They should examine at least 1000 hours spent doing both activities and see how the revenues compare. Then they should do same comparison of the losses, to calculate net profit.
Theoretically, 0.0 hunting should be more profitable than high sec mission running. If the results of study show that to be true, then we know with some certainty that no major changes needed to be done. But if it is proven that 0.0 hunting is less than or equal to high sec, then some kind of action is definitely needed.
As it is now, without hard numbers, we have to rely on stories of other people. And while we could calculate approximate income levels for different activities, the reality often deviates from theory. Only CCP can get the hard data.
And as concerned player, your best option is not to push brand new ideas, but to push CCP to get that hard data and share with community, so educated suggestions can be made for game balance.
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Kayl Breinhar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 20:45:00 -
[64]
Do this.
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Eins Auge
|
Posted - 2009.08.05 21:02:00 -
[65]
I support this.
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Maasus Maxx
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 21:08:00 -
[66]
Awesome idea!
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Dwork Grom
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Posted - 2009.08.05 21:14:00 -
[67]
You have my support. |
Senhu Kudoma
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Posted - 2009.08.05 21:24:00 -
[68]
I forgot to give the little thumbs up.
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Dexter Filmore
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Posted - 2009.08.05 21:51:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Dexter Filmore on 05/08/2009 21:52:22 I'd disagree that highsec mission running is the most profitable PvE activity in the game.
Wormhole space is definitely where it's at, folks, and that's everywhere.
The way I see it, highsec is space for solo players, lowsec is a bit of a mix and 0.0 is where the alliances play. Solo activities should not be even comparatively profitable out in 0.0 because that's not what you're there for in the first place.
If you have the player infrastructure set up, you should be running exploration sites and Class 3+ Wormholes for your isk. It's more fun, a better, less-boring way to spend time and makes you loads of cash.
You make good points and have good solutions, but there is absolutely no reason you should not be running wormholes. Any Class 3 wh can be cleared with 3 Remote Rep BS and a salvager/hacker/analyzer. I've been on wormhole ops that have brought in over 3.5billion isk split 10 ways and for only a few hours work.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 22:17:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
The only part I disagree with is increasing the chances of Faction and Officer spawns. The main effect of that would be to crash the market for faction items and reduce the reward for finding such a spawn, which does nothing to make 0.0 ratting more attractive as it puts us right back where we started.
I suggested it as a way to still make "good" or "great" truesec still matter. In any case, understand that there already is no limit on faction items in this game. You can receive a limitless number of missions in empire (albeit only one at a time per agent), and nothing prevents individuals from "crashing the market" by creating faction items through the LP stores. There isn't even a limit on how many items you can buy within a given time period. The only limits in place are requiring appropriate faction tags easily obtained by looting them in the missions generating the LP to begin with.
As I noted when I mentioned Officers in my original post, there is too much information I don't have to ensure I'm making a sound suggestion. There's also the human behavior to consider.
One poster mentioned above that while they agreed with my analysis, they didn't agree with my solution as it amounted to adding more isk to the game. That isn't necessarily true. While a macro ratter is going to be on 23/7, many players who rat in 0.0 do so to achieve a specific goal - often to fund pvp activities or their dream of flying a capital ship, developing a production business, you name it. If it takes those people 6 hours to 100M isk, and the resultant changes mean they can now earn that in 3 hours, are all or even many of them going to continue to rat the same amount of time? Probably not.
Doubling or tripling spawn rates doesn't mean double or triple will be harvested. It only means that is the new potential maximum.
Quote: Instead, make the spawns bigger. There's a current cap of up to 6 rats per spawn with up to half of those being battleships (although very occasionally the rats are bugged and put two spawns in the same belt) but there's really no obvious reason why for the higher-end truesec this couldn't be increased to 8 or 10 or even more and/or with the 'only half battleships' limit removed. Warping into a belt and being confronted by 10 Angel Seraphim or Blood Popes would not only make 0.0 ratting more lucrative, it would liven up the experience significantly.
If this, what I propose, or another solution is adopted to improve casual isk generation activities in lowsec or 0.0, I'll consider my proposal a success. However, I hope CCP takes care to avoid simply re-vamping exploration.
The main point of my proposal is to give a solo pilot a means to earn just as much or more in a casual 0.0 activity as he or she can earn in high sec doing a level 4 mission. The moment you have to gang up with someone, spend 30 minutes or more finding a suitable location (whether pruning belt spawns or scanning and probing for cosmic anomalies), you're at a big disadvantage to that NPC corp member who never ventures 3-4 jumps beyond a mission hub.
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Insurance Risk
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.05 22:39:00 -
[71]
I've spent billions of isk on 0.0 warfare over the years, and I haven't ratted seriously since '07. All my 0.0 activities are financed by my risk-free highsec moneymaking, I've invested billions of isk and countless hours into alliance level pvp for no personal gain. I've tried every nullsec moneymaking scheme, ratting, mining, faction hunting, exploration, import/export, production, and even moon mining, nothing compares to the isk:effort ratio of empire space. I'd love to be able to log in, shoot stuff for an hour and make some money without spending hours pruning cruiser spawns in -1.0 trusec.
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Cat Molina
Intransigent
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Posted - 2009.08.05 23:37:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Kachiko Sama Hey look, a cogent and well argued idea based on the simple premise that greater risk should bring greater reward. Let's do that.
Hmmm... sounds great! And, since I fly solo in Amamake area, and suffer far greater risk than you do with your blobs and intel channels, then by your argument I should be making about... what? Ten-times your ISK?
Right?
Pathetic little 0.0 players... fighting so hard to extend your E-peen and yet always trying to make life easier for yourselves.
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Zastrow J
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Posted - 2009.08.05 23:50:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Dexter Filmore Edited by: Dexter Filmore on 05/08/2009 21:52:22 I'd disagree that highsec mission running is the most profitable PvE activity in the game.
Wormhole space is definitely where it's at, folks, and that's everywhere.
The way I see it, highsec is space for solo players, lowsec is a bit of a mix and 0.0 is where the alliances play. Solo activities should not be even comparatively profitable out in 0.0 because that's not what you're there for in the first place.
If you have the player infrastructure set up, you should be running exploration sites and Class 3+ Wormholes for your isk. It's more fun, a better, less-boring way to spend time and makes you loads of cash.
You make good points and have good solutions, but there is absolutely no reason you should not be running wormholes. Any Class 3 wh can be cleared with 3 Remote Rep BS and a salvager/hacker/analyzer. I've been on wormhole ops that have brought in over 3.5billion isk split 10 ways and for only a few hours work.
Wormholes may be great but it's a seperate point from the issue of isk generation on the individual level in 0.0 systems. Life in 0.0 is hard. There's risk. There's work. There is uncertainty. There is more work. Carving out a life as an individual can be miserable in 0.0. For all the work and risk there should be a reward.
Current mechanics only incentivize 0.0 for huge alliances who can defend their moon mining towers on valuable moons with a big ass dread fleet. Other than a hope that the wealth will trickle down, there really isn't much reason for a grunt to live in 0.0. He's arguably better off running missions in highsec and only going out to 0.0 when his alliance has to siege or defend some towers. This really is a bad policy and isn't leading to anyone having more fun in space.
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space ganelon
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Posted - 2009.08.05 23:54:00 -
[74]
Not sure about the specific mechanisms proposed for making low/null-sec more profitable, but I certainlly have been annoyed lately by how much more ISK I can making doing hisec L4s than nullseccing.
"boredom pays" is not a great game mechanic.
Supported.
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.08.05 23:59:00 -
[75]
I'm often impressed by the lack of interest people show about finding out actual facts of the matter. Even CCP often just don't care enough to bother data mining. Decisions are mostly made on basis of personal preference.
For example, if we just looked at hard facts, nano nerf probably wouldn't happen the way it did
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.06 00:03:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Cat Molina
Originally by: Kachiko Sama Hey look, a cogent and well argued idea based on the simple premise that greater risk should bring greater reward. Let's do that.
Hmmm... sounds great! And, since I fly solo in Amamake area, and suffer far greater risk than you do with your blobs and intel channels, then by your argument I should be making about... what? Ten-times your ISK?
Right?
Pathetic little 0.0 players... fighting so hard to extend your E-peen and yet always trying to make life easier for yourselves.
The OP included suggestions that would improve the value of lowsec, and if you dont think they go far enough you should feel free to make suggestions on improving it further. However, its not really our fault that you don't have the intel channels and support that the better organised EVE players manage to make use of.
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Cat Molina
Intransigent
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Posted - 2009.08.06 00:04:00 -
[77]
The weak will always cry that their game should be made easier. They avoid challenge like a spoiled child avoids chores.
But an easier path breeds weakness, whether in-game or not. And I like seeing you weaken yourselves. It's rare that someone knows their place in this, or any other, world.
Supported. The current 0.0 game is just too hard for you poor souls.
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internaut
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.06 00:31:00 -
[78]
0.0 needs something to balance the endless grind to actually hold space.
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DrNeato
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Posted - 2009.08.06 00:53:00 -
[79]
I like this, and would love to see this happen.
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Mrs Trzzbk
Mothership Connection Inc. GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.06 01:04:00 -
[80]
Do it. _________________________________________________________
it's good to have land |
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Grouchy Smurf
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Posted - 2009.08.06 01:06:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Kesslar Znel I don't like the spatial vortex generator idea, though I'm not able at the moment to articulate exactly why I feel that way. The other measures I would support, along with a measure to have the client display truesec without needing to consult a third party application. If nothing else it would expose the more broken regions (in both directions) and increase the likelihood that they get fixed/rebalanced.
This.
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Drago Palermus
Tulsa Tube Bending GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.06 01:37:00 -
[82]
I like the crux of Gramtar's argument and will re-post what I posted elsewhere:
Quote: I don't really like the idea of a POS module that somehow lowers the truesec of a system. That doesn't make sense from an RP perspective and I was under the impression that most larger changes needed some sort of RP explanation to fit into the Eve universe. (But certainly correct me if I'm wrong.)
But fusing the POS module idea to [an idea of a system-within-a-system]...perhaps there could be a POS module (requiring Sov 2) that boosted the strength of probes & ship scanners in-system to the point where they picked up exploration sites that would not otherwise be able to be found. Things that perhaps would be near the periphery of the solar system and would require powerful electronics & radar to find. (Think of all the planetoids & Kuiper Belt Objects we've finally stumbled across in the past 20 years.) Your ship-based sensors would then interface with these POS-based sensors.
Because these sites would be so well-hidden they would be the perfect location for higher-bounty rats to hide. (However I would NOT be in favor of making them so difficult that a mid-skill BS couldn't handle them solo. Rather, the easiest of them would be similar to the triple-BS spawns we currently find, and there would be few or no two-cruisers-and-two-frigates spawns.)
I guess my idea isn't really a new idea but rather a refinement of the existing ones people are floating that executes it in a more logical manner. (Or at least more logical to me.)
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Kuzim Blaky'all
Recycling and Recovery
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Posted - 2009.08.06 01:40:00 -
[83]
dawg what means a dawg gets more mad ices means a dawg be down dig, i be down if a dawg bust more an maybe leave more
also dawgs vote kuzim presdent of eve in 20010
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Tenshiin
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.06 02:03:00 -
[84]
Good proposal.
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WarmWaffles
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.06 02:16:00 -
[85]
I approve of this. Cruiser spawns in 0.0 is pointless
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Roeun Deiaj
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.06 02:26:00 -
[86]
I support this.
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Ess Erbe
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.06 04:45:00 -
[87]
As long as faction cruiser spawns still spawn with battleship escorts.
Improving ratting to incentivize people to leave highsec and populate lowsec and 0.0 and a way to improve space for ratting, which this proposal has, is long overdue.
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Valanan
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.06 05:05:00 -
[88]
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Dexter Filmore
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Posted - 2009.08.06 05:13:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Zastrow J
Originally by: Dexter Filmore Edited by: Dexter Filmore on 05/08/2009 21:52:22 I'd disagree that highsec mission running is the most profitable PvE activity in the game.
Wormhole space is definitely where it's at, folks, and that's everywhere.
The way I see it, highsec is space for solo players, lowsec is a bit of a mix and 0.0 is where the alliances play. Solo activities should not be even comparatively profitable out in 0.0 because that's not what you're there for in the first place.
If you have the player infrastructure set up, you should be running exploration sites and Class 3+ Wormholes for your isk. It's more fun, a better, less-boring way to spend time and makes you loads of cash.
You make good points and have good solutions, but there is absolutely no reason you should not be running wormholes. Any Class 3 wh can be cleared with 3 Remote Rep BS and a salvager/hacker/analyzer. I've been on wormhole ops that have brought in over 3.5billion isk split 10 ways and for only a few hours work.
Wormholes may be great but it's a seperate point from the issue of isk generation on the individual level in 0.0 systems. Life in 0.0 is hard. There's risk. There's work. There is uncertainty. There is more work. Carving out a life as an individual can be miserable in 0.0. For all the work and risk there should be a reward.
Current mechanics only incentivize 0.0 for huge alliances who can defend their moon mining towers on valuable moons with a big ass dread fleet. Other than a hope that the wealth will trickle down, there really isn't much reason for a grunt to live in 0.0. He's arguably better off running missions in highsec and only going out to 0.0 when his alliance has to siege or defend some towers. This really is a bad policy and isn't leading to anyone having more fun in space.
You have a good point and I will certainly agree having lived it myself that there is no reward to trying to be self-sufficient in 0.0. While I do certainly think there should be a way to make money in 0.0, I feel very strongly about EVE being a team game. The Level 4 missioning game is very solidly a solo-PvE carebear thing to do in EVE. There is probably a large section of the player base who this is their main focus in EVE and a significant source of money for CCP. To a player who plays the team game, that kind of stuff is like mining. It's excruciating and quite boring.
Most effective pilots I know have 2 accounts at least, a lot of them 3. Anybody can run 3 accounts doing RRBS and clear a Class 3 wormhole in an evening's work and pull in prolly half a bil. If you're in Marauders you can dual-box it no problem and there seems to be some potential there for solo (though it's bloody difficult). Even a Class 1 or 2 will net you 100-200 million isk no problem (though they're more in highsec).
I guess what I'm really trying to say here is that there are other ways to make money in EVE (the least traveled path, really) and just focusing on buffing one specific isk generating activity isn't going to help anyone because you're just going to push more of those solo pilots out of high/low sec out to fight over an already limited resource. It's a tricky thing to balance because different players have different styles of play and CCP has to cater to all of them. I just think if you're in a corp or alliance, you have to figure out how to make your money TOGETHER...otherwise why are you even out there in the first place?
I'm really challenging the whole idea of "grunt" players that just play as cannonfodder to make a few people lots of money. Playing with the right group of people has as much to do with your ability to make ISK as what rats are spawning in system...realistically much much more.
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Kytanos Termek
Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.08.06 05:29:00 -
[90]
Supported
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.06 05:49:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Kesslar Znel I don't like the spatial vortex generator idea, though I'm not able at the moment to articulate exactly why I feel that way. The other measures I would support, along with a measure to have the client display truesec without needing to consult a third party application. If nothing else it would expose the more broken regions (in both directions) and increase the likelihood that they get fixed/rebalanced.
(Yes I am aware that this means Delve, and yes I'm aware that this means less money for me.)
Higher sovereignty and so higher control giving more rats seem bad.
It would seem a better option to recruit agents for the player stations as often suggested.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.06 06:02:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Ephemeron CCP should conduct a more in-depth study of profit margins for level 4 missions in high sec and 0.0 ratting. They should examine at least 1000 hours spent doing both activities and see how the revenues compare. Then they should do same comparison of the losses, to calculate net profit.
Theoretically, 0.0 hunting should be more profitable than high sec mission running. If the results of study show that to be true, then we know with some certainty that no major changes needed to be done. But if it is proven that 0.0 hunting is less than or equal to high sec, then some kind of action is definitely needed.
As it is now, without hard numbers, we have to rely on stories of other people. And while we could calculate approximate income levels for different activities, the reality often deviates from theory. Only CCP can get the hard data.
And as concerned player, your best option is not to push brand new ideas, but to push CCP to get that hard data and share with community, so educated suggestions can be made for game balance.
The problem is the value of the loot/salvage.
If CCP use mineral content it is skewed one direction, if they use local market values it is skewed in another, if they use Jita values probably in another direction again.
Then a lot of ratters don't loot/salvage even if it could give a great profit (between x2 and x3 the mineral content of equivalent mission ships loot, more salvage than mission ships), so that value should be disregarded?
How CCP can know what is really recovered from the wrecks and what was already in the ship?
Taht would require a level of data tracking that I doubt is feasible without serious risks of lag (and so changing the results as the ratting/missioning would give less isk/hour thanks to changed conditions).
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.08.06 06:12:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Gramtar In any case, understand that there already is no limit on faction items in this game. You can receive a limitless number of missions in empire (albeit only one at a time per agent), and nothing prevents individuals from "crashing the market" by creating faction items through the LP stores. There isn't even a limit on how many items you can buy within a given time period. The only limits in place are requiring appropriate faction tags easily obtained by looting them in the missions generating the LP to begin with.
Why don't you try that?
1) most faction items in the LP store are the equivalent of the worse faction drops from rats;
2) the missions (barring maybe level 5) don't drop the tags you need for the LP offers in the right proportions and quantity, so you generally end with the wrong kind of tags;
3) practically all the LP offers have a isk cost and all have a LP cost. Both don't come free and in limitless quantities.
So no, normal users can't crash the faction market through the LP store. Macro haulers can be another story, but then macro ratter would do the same if the spawns were changed.
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VCBee2888
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.06 06:31:00 -
[94]
CCP have already improved the quality of spawns in lowsec(0.4-0.1). I believe they should do something similar to 0.0. |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.08.06 06:34:00 -
[95]
Quote: How CCP can know what is really recovered from the wrecks and what was already in the ship?
CCP have access to all player wallets - they routinely check that data when they investigate isk sellers.
They can see the where the isk comes from, they can add it up and average it out. 1000 hours from 100s of different players would give fairly good estimate
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Tsubutai
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Posted - 2009.08.06 07:26:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Tsubutai on 06/08/2009 07:26:34 I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, but to play devil's advocate:
i) You say you specifically want to avoid nerfing highsec activities, but the game has a single economy; a boost to one method of isk-making is necessarily an indirect nerf to the others, simply because it increases the money supply. Trying to dance around and say you don't want to reduce highsec income is rather disingenuous.
ii) You're comparing highsec mission running to nullsec ratting; why not compare like for like? Anyone trying to make a living by ratting in high/lowsec would be a space-pauper; anyone who can run missions in 0.0 has an infinite isk printer that would make a highsec mission runner blush. Not only do nullsec missions pay better and give more LP/mission, the LP are worth vastly more than the LP of 90+% of highsec LP stores. I'm not trying to pretend that there are no problems with missioning for nullsec factions, particularly if you've been ratting in the area they live in, but again, it's rather disingenuous to compare wholly different activities.
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Cick Lunt
|
Posted - 2009.08.06 10:38:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Cick Lunt on 06/08/2009 10:38:20
Originally by: Tsubutai Edited by: Tsubutai on 06/08/2009 08:38:06 Edited by: Tsubutai on 06/08/2009 07:26:34 I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, but to play devil's advocate:
i) You say you specifically want to avoid nerfing highsec activities, but the game has a single economy; a boost to one method of isk-making is necessarily an indirect nerf to the others, simply because it increases the money supply. Trying to dance around and say you don't want to reduce highsec income is rather disingenuous.
ii) You're comparing highsec mission running to nullsec ratting; why not compare like for like? Anyone trying to make a living by ratting in high/lowsec would be a space-pauper; anyone who can run missions in 0.0 has an infinite isk printer that would make a highsec mission runner blush. Not only do nullsec missions pay better and give more LP/mission, the LP are worth vastly more than those of most highsec factions. I'm not trying to pretend that there are no problems with missioning for nullsec factions, particularly if you've been ratting in the area they live in, but again, it's rather disingenuous to compare wholly different activities.
I wish people would only respond if they actaly have a bit of knowlage of the subject. 0.0 missions are only avaleble in the 4 NPC sov regions, curse, GW, syndicate, venal and npc delve. Only a small portion of 0.0 players live there and its usualy very hostile territory that u cant farm like regular high sec l4 missions ... (yes this involves risk and yes u need to hide often in stations and no it wont go as fast as l4 cause u cant use faction pimped ships for it)
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.08.06 11:10:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote: How CCP can know what is really recovered from the wrecks and what was already in the ship?
CCP have access to all player wallets - they routinely check that data when they investigate isk sellers.
They can see the where the isk comes from, they can add it up and average it out. 1000 hours from 100s of different players would give fairly good estimate
Let's look my wallet and trade when I was in 0.0. - 60+ sell order opens, included all the good stuff and minerals from looting missions in high sec; - plenty of sell orders in 0.0 for items made there with recycled loot (ammunitions, probes, meta 0 modules not dropped by the local rats, ships); - some sell order for the good metaitems dropped by the rats; - rigs made with local and empire components; - empire sell order for zydrine and megacyte from the 0.0 loot and some meta 4 sell order with modules coming from 0.0.
What wasn't there: - the faction items I did gets (some I used, some I moved in empire in a single voyage and later sold, some are still in my cans in empire or 0.0, the tower BPC was given to my corp) - the T2 salvage from rats that is still in my salvage can.
So: - how CCP will differentiate if my Sell order of meta 4 laser was made using 0.0 rat loot lasers or high sec mission lasers? - what value have the minerals I used to build ships that I used and lost? and CCP can identify where that mineral came (loot or mining)? - what value for the minerals I sold or gave to the corp as a gift? 0.0 local or empire? - If 0.0 local, how we will consider that some alliance enforce limited buy orders for 0.0, so that they will be the only people buying and at reduced prices? - if I sell something got in 0.0 after months of using it or simply keeping it in a can they will add his value to the money I made in 0.0? - ecc. ecc.
Raw data mining mean very little if you need to do something valid. You need to evaluate what you get and identify what problems there can be with you data gathering system.
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Laminar Septimar
German Kings Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.08.06 11:11:00 -
[99]
Supported
Another point is that true 0.0 Systems have less belts than other systems in 0.0. Increase the number of belts to 12 and you can chain even better with much more profit. Right now you can only chain in a true sys with only one person (in Vale of the Silent) while this systems have about 5-8 belts in it.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.06 11:19:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Tsubutai Edited by: Tsubutai on 06/08/2009 08:38:06 Edited by: Tsubutai on 06/08/2009 07:26:34 I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, but to play devil's advocate:
i) You say you specifically want to avoid nerfing highsec activities, but the game has a single economy; a boost to one method of isk-making is necessarily an indirect nerf to the others, simply because it increases the money supply. Trying to dance around and say you don't want to reduce highsec income is rather disingenuous.
Butterfly Effect nerfs are inevitable and occur all the time whenever anything is rebalanced in this game - even, for example, a statline change to a PvP ship will have knock on effects in Empire for the people who manufacture and sell that ship. So yes, there would potentially be consequences for highsec.
But one hopeful side effect of a 0.0 buff would be that if more of the space is attractive enough for people to compete for, then it would get more people out there blowing each other up, which would mean more demand for the ships and modules which are still mostly obtained in highsec (and so higher buy orders for the tritanium mined in highsec and used to construct them) and exported to 0.0.
Quote: ii) You're comparing highsec mission running to nullsec ratting; why not compare like for like? Anyone trying to make a living by ratting in high/lowsec would be a space-pauper; anyone who can run missions in 0.0 has an infinite isk printer that would make a highsec mission runner blush. Not only do nullsec missions pay better and give more LP/mission, the LP are worth vastly more than those of most highsec factions. I'm not trying to pretend that there are no problems with missioning for nullsec factions, particularly if you've been ratting in the area they live in, but again, it's rather disingenuous to compare wholly different activities.
He's comparing best option with best option, not like for like. To turn your point around you may as well compare running L4s in The Forge (apparently 20m per hour) with running L4s in Querious (zero isk per hour - there aren't any L4 agents, or any agents at all, in Querious!)
Whilst people can run L4s in NPC 0.0 regions like Stain or Syndicate and theoretically make as much or more money as in highsec, in reality these regions are gankfests full of roaming NBSI gangs who are potentially probing out your mission site or camping the stations, so at best you'll spend half the time making no money at all because you're camped in or hiding in a POS or safespot, and at worst you'll have your expensive BS blown up and not only have to spend ISK, but precious mission-running time flying around putting together fittings as well (NPC 0.0 markets tend to be patchy - there's rarely a Jita or Rens equivalent system with everything you need at low prices in a single location).
Whether ratting or missioning, the difference in 0.0 is that your theoretical maximum income is only possible under perfect conditions that rarely are present in reality (ie a ratting system with above average truesec, all the crappy cruiser spawns already cleared out for you, a dozen or so belts, no hostiles or neutrals in system, and no other ratters in system that you have to split the spawns with, or a L4 agent with no hostiles or neutrals in the agent's system or any other system that the mission sends you to). Whilst in highsec, those perfect missioning conditions apply all the time so your theoretical maximum income is your actual income where the only limitation is the amount of time you want to spend playing.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.08.06 11:20:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 06/08/2009 11:22:58
Originally by: Cick Lunt
I wish people would only respond if they actaly have a bit of knowlage of the subject. 0.0 missions are only avaleble in the 4 NPC sov regions, curse, GW, syndicate, venal and npc delve. Only a small portion of 0.0 players live there and its usualy very hostile territory that u cant farm like regular high sec l4 missions ... (yes this involves risk and yes u need to hide often in stations and no it wont go as fast as l4 cause u cant use faction pimped ships for it)
As I had a clean standing alt with less than 6 month of training I did mission running in Delve with him. Even if it was full of non blue I had no problem running them (beside the alliance not liking the time "lost" to mission running) and had no problem doing the missions. Never lost a ship mission running in 0.0. Ratting was more dangerous.
Sure, only four regions have NPC stations, but that can be changed. Change for change, in theory that adding NPC agents will give 0.0 the "infinite supply" of easy money that high sec already has.
But the point is not that, true? the point is that it should be a big wealth source with as little time required to get the money as possible. It should not move people away from the "true" activity of 0.0, fighting other players.
Originally by: Scatim Helicon (NPC 0.0 markets tend to be patchy - there's rarely a Jita or Rens equivalent system with everything you need at low prices in a single location).
That is a choice of the alliances: "Don't sell in station, enemies can buy the stuff. Only sell through inter alliance channels."
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Exlegion
Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.08.06 11:27:00 -
[102]
Low sec needs a fix, ASAP. Why is it taking so long?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Sariton Xavian
|
Posted - 2009.08.06 11:59:00 -
[103]
Pretty much everyone with some sense of perspective would agree that higher risk should equate to higher reward. That concept is one of the appeals of Eve, but currently it doesn't appear to be playing out that way at the individual level. That said, the devil is in the detail when it comes to ways to improve the situation.
I've found that for the mostly solo play I currently engage in, level 4 hisec mission running is just too good to ignore. On a single account 20m ISK/hour is pretty easy to achieve even if you don't factor in the profits from LP conversion - and the LPs net me more gain than the bounties/loot/salvage/mission ISK reward combined per unit time. Every other solo money making scheme I've looked at has come up short of this with the exception of exploration - and that has more risks and really requires multiple accounts.
To address the devil's advocate post above, I don't consider the suggested approach disingenuous given that the stated objective IS to move the balance of reward towards the higher risk environments. I'm also not sure on what you're basing the belief that 0.0 mission running is massively more lucritive than hisec. The numbers I've run for LP conversions and earning rates on a couple of the pirate factions were not impressive and failed to justify the increased risk.
Back to suggestions for rectification, we need to consider macro-economic consequences. The nature of the different ways a player is rewarded is important, mainly the difference between ISK rewards (primarily bounty) and material rewards (modules, minerals). I'll leave psuedo currency like LPs out of the equation for simplicity sake.
The basic principle is, anything that you inject more of into the economy loses relative value, and that includes ISK itself. Whacking rats for bounty injects ISK directly into the economy, increasing the ease of this has an inflationary effect lowering the value of ISK compared to the goods it is used to purchase. ie. the price of everything goes up. For another example look at the theory of drones and high end minerals, the issue there is that a new source of high end minerals was introduced such that they became relatively more plentiful compared to everything else (especially low end minerals), as a result the relative value of everything else increases. ie. the price of tritanium goes up, the price of high end minerals goes down.
I figure lets try to kill 2 birds with one stone by injecting the right stuff into 0.0 solo play rather than just ISK. After all, any change you make to the game has trickle down effects, we might as well aim for those things to be desireable as well, insofar as it's possible to predict them. Increasing the availability of low end minerals in deep nullsec isn't very appealing so that's out. More bounties means inflation and nobody likes inflation... I wouldn't say its out but you want to be careful with it.
Lets look at some overpriced items which are linked to mostly lowsec and 0.0 play.
T2 rigs T2 ships
In both cases the problem is supply, though for slightly different reasons.
T2 rigs suffer from limited supply opportunities across the board. So why not improve the value of all NPC ships outside hisec by giving them a gradually increasing chance to salvage T2 rig parts the lower the sec of the system they are in.
T2 ships suffer from the moon mining and reactions industry being owned by alliances, not individuals. It is a great big oligopoly which happliy keeps prices high. How about it be made possible to get some T2 materials through individual effort in any system where moon mining is possible. In this way, individuals who live in 0.0 can improve their personal wealth creation, and it would create an individual incentive for people to raid those systems, either venturing out from hisec or from neighboring sov. Granted balancing this with passive extraction via POSs is tricky, but some clever design could solve this. |
Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.08.06 13:33:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Scatim Helicon (NPC 0.0 markets tend to be patchy - there's rarely a Jita or Rens equivalent system with everything you need at low prices in a single location).
That is a choice of the alliances: "Don't sell in station, enemies can buy the stuff. Only sell through inter alliance channels."
That's not how it works in Goonswarm, even in the NPC Delve constellations. :)
And for the solo player needing to make money, it doesn't really matter why the NPC 0.0 markets are patchy, scattered and inflated. It still means he might have to fly 15 jumps to get his next set of (overpriced) missile launchers, another 15 jumps to pick up his (overpriced) ballistic control systems, and then 30 jumps to get back to his agent, all of which is time he could have spent making more money doing more missions, not to mention the risk of him getting blown up on the way. The realities of NPC 0.0 make missioning a far less attractive proposition than heading back to a highsec hub and running them all day long in near-total safety, even with the slightly higher agent rewards.
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Xerpex
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.06 14:57:00 -
[105]
.
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Zastrow J
|
Posted - 2009.08.06 17:07:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Zastrow J on 06/08/2009 17:08:31
Originally by: Venkul MulBut the point is not that, true? the point is that it should be a big wealth source with as little time required to get the money as possible. It should not move people away from the "true" activity of 0.0, fighting other players.
There are no players to fight in 0.0 because nobody has any reason to be in 0.0. If people could actually feasibly live out in 0.0 instead of going back to highsec to run missions it's a win for 0.0 dwellers both carebear and pirate alike.
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Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2009.08.06 18:03:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Zastrow J Edited by: Zastrow J on 06/08/2009 17:08:31
Originally by: Venkul MulBut the point is not that, true? the point is that it should be a big wealth source with as little time required to get the money as possible. It should not move people away from the "true" activity of 0.0, fighting other players.
There are no players to fight in 0.0 because nobody has any reason to be in 0.0. If people could actually feasibly live out in 0.0 instead of going back to highsec to run missions it's a win for 0.0 dwellers both carebear and pirate alike.
I don't like the OP suggestion, but I do agree that some balance needs to be struck.
IMHO the best fix would be to 'tone' down the reward ladder in empire. Namely by changing the current mineral faucets to LP faucets in addition to loot revisions for drones. This would drive mid range minerals up, zydrine up, trit down and more or less make low security look appealing for mining again. Scale the LP rewards so that the highest ones are given at null NPC. Ensure that LP stores only give out the best conversions there as well.
With that and Zyd and Mega up to higher levels, it should make null look vastly more appealing for both pirate and carebear alike.
...should make everyone happy. |
isqander
Amarr GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.08.06 18:51:00 -
[108]
This is convoluted solution. Just boost 0.0 bounties. Problem solved.
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Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2009.08.06 19:41:00 -
[109]
Originally by: isqander This is convoluted solution. Just boost 0.0 bounties. Problem solved.
It would only seem that simple, but raising bounties would actually make it worse. |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.08.06 19:53:00 -
[110]
I said it before and I'll say it again - because it is the truth:
the biggest injustice of 0.0 hunting is that people who log in immediately after downtime have 30-50% better chance of finding valuable faction spawns, including officer spawns.
I have done it for at least 2 years - I hunted right after downtime and I hunted 12+ hours after downtime. I know the difference. I understand the game mechanics that make it possible, I explained how it works already.
You want to improve 0.0 for general population without any big game changers? Simply fix the broken system. That fix may not be enough, but it is a step in right direction.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.08.07 10:57:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Ephemeron I said it before and I'll say it again - because it is the truth:
the biggest injustice of 0.0 hunting is that people who log in immediately after downtime have 30-50% better chance of finding valuable faction spawns, including officer spawns.
I have done it for at least 2 years - I hunted right after downtime and I hunted 12+ hours after downtime. I know the difference. I understand the game mechanics that make it possible, I explained how it works already.
You want to improve 0.0 for general population without any big game changers? Simply fix the broken system. That fix may not be enough, but it is a step in right direction.
From what I know it is a direct effect of chaining.
Unbroken chains don't spawn faction ships.
If the player that had farmed the chain leave and a new player take his belt he will (usually) continue to farm the big BS spawns. And so not getting the faction spawns.
As hearsay systems heavily chained get a temporary drop in the chance of good spawns, so if you break the chain after hours of chaining the chances of a faction spawns are lower.
DT reset all that so the chance of a faction spawn reset.
It is all based on the players behaviour. If you can convince people that a better chance to a faction spawn is better than chaining the triple BS spawns you will get your wish and have the same chance at all the hours.
If they prefer to keep the sure income of the big triple BS spawns the chances stay low.
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staji
|
Posted - 2009.08.07 11:07:00 -
[112]
About time..
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Will Iron
|
Posted - 2009.08.07 11:08:00 -
[113]
good ideas..
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Hester Shaw
|
Posted - 2009.08.07 11:08:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Grouchy Smurf
Originally by: Kesslar Znel I don't like the spatial vortex generator idea, though I'm not able at the moment to articulate exactly why I feel that way. The other measures I would support, along with a measure to have the client display truesec without needing to consult a third party application. If nothing else it would expose the more broken regions (in both directions) and increase the likelihood that they get fixed/rebalanced.
This.
Also agreeing here - don't like the mystic hoohar generators that magically make higher level rats spawn (because of falcon?) but the rest of the post is Do This! Do This Now!
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Marcus Janota
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Posted - 2009.08.07 11:08:00 -
[115]
Good one
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Hrodgar Ortal
|
Posted - 2009.08.07 11:53:00 -
[116]
Isk/h and risk/isk ratios in 0.0 are less than lvl4's from what I understand yes. However, I'm not sure that looking solely at ratting and improving that is the answer.
Firstly, the truesec thing. Does it actually work that way? In that case most of fountain is also "broken", I've gotten plenty of 1.85m triple spawns and just a few days ago one of my corpmates had a officer spawn in what I think is a -0.09 system (z30s-a in fountain) which if I understand the argument is not enough to get that kind of spawns.
Secondly, removing the "crap" spawns and replacing them with battleships only might have other consequences as it will probably result in a large increase in minerals from reprocessing which in turn makes mining less good in 0.0 as well.
So while I agree that 0.0 needs to be more profitable on the individual level (and possibly also change the SOP for running alliances from the "hold prom/dysp" to something more interesting), this mainly to allow more people to live in the space without it being crowded. I'm highly skeptical about boosting ratting is the way to go.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.07 13:29:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Venkul Mul From what I know it is a direct effect of chaining.
Unbroken chains don't spawn faction ships.
We're keeping track of faction and officer spawns on our forums and they do pop up in chained systems. It does seem that there's a disproportionate number appearing after downtime before any chaining can take place, but it doesn't seem that chaining in itself prevents the spawns from appearing.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.07 13:57:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: Venkul Mul From what I know it is a direct effect of chaining.
Unbroken chains don't spawn faction ships.
We're keeping track of faction and officer spawns on our forums and they do pop up in chained systems. It does seem that there's a disproportionate number appearing after downtime before any chaining can take place, but it doesn't seem that chaining in itself prevents the spawns from appearing.
Maybe my wording isn't clear as I am not native English speaker, but:
1) if you have a chain in a belt that chain (in my experience) don't change to a faction spawn when the BS respawn;
2) every belt you lock with a chain is one less belt that can't spawn a faction.
Is something wrong in my statements?
I acknowledge it is possible that they are wrong, I don't like chaining so I have done it rarely.
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Duneil
|
Posted - 2009.08.07 14:30:00 -
[119]
Do this, now.
I'm even supporting the POS mods to change truesec. Although the AMOUNT of truesec change is what I would argue against. It would make holding even bad 0.0 for extended periods of time good, but a maximum benefit of -0.4 or even -0.3 would suffice to fix the issue without destroying a good reason for people to want to invade better space. None of this "Make it -1" module crap.
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Ritser Brughel
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Posted - 2009.08.07 18:00:00 -
[120]
Supported
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Sans Honore
Wirfadam Productions LTD
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Posted - 2009.08.07 19:48:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Phorashi I'm gonna support this on the **** empire platform.
Supported for the same reason.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.07 21:19:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Gramtar on 07/08/2009 21:27:10
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Maybe my wording isn't clear as I am not native English speaker, but:
1) if you have a chain in a belt that chain (in my experience) don't change to a faction spawn when the BS respawn;
2) every belt you lock with a chain is one less belt that can't spawn a faction.
Is something wrong in my statements?
I acknowledge it is possible that they are wrong, I don't like chaining so I have done it rarely.
I've had both faction and hauler spawns appear in belts while I was shooting a regular spawn. It doesn't happen often, but I've seen it on at least a dozen occasions.
edit: that's part of the reason I chain worthwhile (value 3M+) spawns. In the end, it's a matter of personal preference. If cruiser spawns are eliminated from 0.0, and possibly the respawn time reduced, there could be less reason to chain than there is currently for those who believe as you do.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.07 23:23:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Gramtar Edited by: Gramtar on 07/08/2009 21:27:10
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Maybe my wording isn't clear as I am not native English speaker, but:
1) if you have a chain in a belt that chain (in my experience) don't change to a faction spawn when the BS respawn;
2) every belt you lock with a chain is one less belt that can't spawn a faction.
Is something wrong in my statements?
I acknowledge it is possible that they are wrong, I don't like chaining so I have done it rarely.
I've had both faction and hauler spawns appear in belts while I was shooting a regular spawn. It doesn't happen often, but I've seen it on at least a dozen occasions.
edit: that's part of the reason I chain worthwhile (value 3M+) spawns. In the end, it's a matter of personal preference. If cruiser spawns are eliminated from 0.0, and possibly the respawn time reduced, there could be less reason to chain than there is currently for those who believe as you do.
A further question, those spwans, spawned or warped from another belt?
In my experience hauler spawns have the habit to warp between belts after spawning. I had even regular spawns warp between belts occasionally (I recognized them from the damage I already had done and the spawn being short of the ship I had destroyed). No idea about faction.
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marshmallow madness
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.08.08 00:27:00 -
[124]
The only problem I see is that I don't have more accounts to support this with
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Mr Waran
|
Posted - 2009.08.08 00:30:00 -
[125]
Sounds awesome.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.08.08 00:45:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
A further question, those spwans, spawned or warped from another belt?
In my experience hauler spawns have the habit to warp between belts after spawning. I had even regular spawns warp between belts occasionally (I recognized them from the damage I already had done and the spawn being short of the ship I had destroyed). No idea about faction.
No way to know if they came from others or just spawned, but I think the latter.
In my experience, all spawns (normal, hauler, faction, and on up to officers) will warp off "randomly". Gate spawns seem to only warp to other gates, and belt spawns seem they only warp to other belts, though.
It seemed to me sometime after they removed npc's from the directional scanner (early 2007), warping off increased in frequency. That may or may not have increased again with Apocrypha 1.0 this year. This is only personal observation and highly subjective. It may be true that nothing has changed at all, although I tend to doubt it.
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Xikorita
Mob Thought
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Posted - 2009.08.08 01:59:00 -
[127]
I support this. There are many "useless" 0.0 system as now. And low-sec is only gate camp or pirates shooting each other.
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
|
Posted - 2009.08.08 02:07:00 -
[128]
Do.
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Karentaki
Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2009.08.08 12:40:00 -
[129]
100% Supported
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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Admiral Apex
|
Posted - 2009.08.08 12:49:00 -
[130]
0.0 and lowsec ratting(there should at least be a few battleships =/) should be looked into. - Mission running: not as exciting as smashing your hand with a hammer, but more painful. |
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Imertu Solientai
|
Posted - 2009.08.08 12:55:00 -
[131]
/Signed
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Hooded Person
|
Posted - 2009.08.08 16:35:00 -
[132]
Supportin' in da' topic!
Originally by: RedSplat
PvP flagging would solve this issue.
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Cpt Underpants
Zenith Affinity
|
Posted - 2009.08.09 01:31:00 -
[133]
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LegendaryFrog
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.08.09 04:47:00 -
[134]
Supported. This is a basic risk vs. reward issue that is the heart of eve.
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SHADOW0240
In Theory.
|
Posted - 2009.08.09 10:25:00 -
[135]
ôStanley, see this? This is this. This ain't something else. This is this. From now on, you're on your own.ö |
A Sinner
THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY
|
Posted - 2009.08.09 13:16:00 -
[136]
Supported, not only ratting is boring, but the rewards don't cover my pvp lossess. ----- Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Canaith Lydian
Amarr Dominus Umbra Fatal Ascension
|
Posted - 2009.08.09 19:04:00 -
[137]
And is it just me, or did the last patch change something in ratting. I have been a ratter in Providence for months, and my income has been cut in half in recent weeks. Did they change something to make the systems perform better? I honestly haven't seen a good chain in a long time. This is making risking tech 2 cruisers substantial, since i have to work for a long time to cover the 200 mill it can take to buy and fit one.
What's going on?
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Sir Muffoon
Debitum Naturae
|
Posted - 2009.08.10 01:10:00 -
[138]
Supporting, but sadly CCP probably won't do anything with this.
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Rudolf Miller
Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.08.10 03:08:00 -
[139]
supporting this why not
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Cick Lunt
|
Posted - 2009.08.10 11:11:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Sir Muffoon Supporting, but sadly CCP probably won't do anything with this.
they will if we get enough support here and when they finaly open their eye's
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Krismata
Legion of Ascension Beyond Ascension
|
Posted - 2009.08.10 17:14:00 -
[141]
/signed. 0.0 Needs to be more inviting. :: Legion Of Ascension ::
PVE - Industry - PVP
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Lord Aftermath
The Aftermath.
|
Posted - 2009.08.10 20:14:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Lord Aftermath on 10/08/2009 20:14:18 Well written post. The Aftermath. supports the rebalance.
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Desync
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.10 20:25:00 -
[143]
Edited by: Desync on 10/08/2009 20:37:18 Edited by: Desync on 10/08/2009 20:29:17 Edited by: Desync on 10/08/2009 20:25:23 I support this change as well. Ratting can get really tedious due to the reasons covered in the original post
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Aniel Zaar
Light of Orion
|
Posted - 2009.08.10 22:27:00 -
[144]
I left 0.0 because of how poor the return over time invested is when compared to high sec. mission running. Not to mention security.
Supported. Would love to come back to 0.0 if the money were there. *-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones. |
Syaran
IMPERIAL SENATE Cool Kids Club
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 08:57:00 -
[145]
Supported.
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Darwin's Market
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 15:43:00 -
[146]
always wanted this
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Taliesyn
Arkio Pathfinder Group
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 15:45:00 -
[147]
Support
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Belmarduk
Imperial Shipment
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 17:56:00 -
[148]
Mainchar:
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Varus Riaz
Fatalix Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.08.11 20:55:00 -
[149]
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Lokajin
Minmatar Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.08.12 00:59:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Gramtar Edited by: Gramtar on 07/08/2009 21:27:10
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Maybe my wording isn't clear as I am not native English speaker, but:
1) if you have a chain in a belt that chain (in my experience) don't change to a faction spawn when the BS respawn;
2) every belt you lock with a chain is one less belt that can't spawn a faction.
Is something wrong in my statements?
I acknowledge it is possible that they are wrong, I don't like chaining so I have done it rarely.
I've had both faction and hauler spawns appear in belts while I was shooting a regular spawn. It doesn't happen often, but I've seen it on at least a dozen occasions.
edit: that's part of the reason I chain worthwhile (value 3M+) spawns. In the end, it's a matter of personal preference. If cruiser spawns are eliminated from 0.0, and possibly the respawn time reduced, there could be less reason to chain than there is currently for those who believe as you do.
A further question, those spwans, spawned or warped from another belt?
In my experience hauler spawns have the habit to warp between belts after spawning. I had even regular spawns warp between belts occasionally (I recognized them from the damage I already had done and the spawn being short of the ship I had destroyed). No idea about faction.
Im also gonna say from my own personal experience that when ratting I have come back to a belt that I was chaining in recently and had a DG spawn with the rest of the BS as they all warped in. (Meaning my spawn + a DG all warped in together) Before Apoc I never saw this after Apoc was released im seeing and hearing about it ALOT more. I believe its something included in the new patch that might of bugged out the 0.0 ratting a bit but the income overrall from before the patch and now is substanially LOWER. This new rat warp in mechanic they tried using seems to have bugged out due to a huge lack in spawns. I can go to a say 14 belt system and have 3 spawns in the entire system? Broken much? CCP definitely needs to take a look at there game mechanics for 0.0 especially there rat rates cause I would say they definitely need to be increased. Full support on OP's post aside from the insta -1 truesec mod i agree with the poster before me that recommend just a flat rate increase mod. -.3 or -.4 increase pos mod would definitely be sufficient and could revive most crap systems out there.
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Dayamb
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Posted - 2009.08.13 07:07:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Dayamb on 13/08/2009 07:11:25 If you triple the spawns of faction/officer loot, won't that in effect reduce thier values?
For that matter, won't flooding the game with more Isk faucets just create inflation?
And I don't really get the point of a POS mod to boost rattng potential. If I conquer Serpentis space, Why would they come by more often?
I think If loot tables for adjusted and the Mining ratios changed in both empire and 0.0, There would be a more appropriate balance for individual players.
Empire is for Solo wealth growing. 0.0 is about alliance riches. Can an Empire corp seriously match up against a 0.0 corp for funding?
A more appropriate way to spread people out and use every system in 0.0 is to have NPC's build up in systems without "ratters" threatening them. I think for every hour and every day a Ratter isn't present in a system, the NPC's should go and build up more and better forces. When a ratter comes in and knocks them down, they start over. Officers should be like raids on a system. When officers come by, it creates an event where they attack either you or some complex in the system as a means of regaining control.
Officers would be another good way to threaten Sov of space. Imagine if you didn't defend against an officer raid, losing sov in a system and having to start anew. It would definitely force your alliance to defend it's home.
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.08.13 07:52:00 -
[152]
Quote: If you triple the spawns of faction/officer loot, won't that in effect reduce thier values?
As far as faction goes, the only thing that needs to be done is fix it so 40~60% of all officer spawns don't happen within 2 hours after dt. It is unjust to everyone who cannot get online in that time period. Fixing that problem would simply crease the appearance of more spawns, as distribution evens out.
That alone would not be enough to make 0.0 that much more attractive, something else should happen. I believe the main problem is in the high sec level 4 missions. They are simply unreasonable. Making 0.0 more attractive than that will either flood the market with officer loot or create big inflation with isk
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Ganthrithor
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.08.13 09:47:00 -
[153]
No more spending 5 hours straight clearing endless BC / Cruiser spawns from a 20 belt ratting system in 0.0? Yes please! Supported, 100%. |
Vaia Thana
|
Posted - 2009.08.13 10:35:00 -
[154]
This is a great idea and well though out. Hopefully it leads to more ratters to shoot as well
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.08.13 12:26:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Vaia Thana This is a great idea and well though out. Hopefully it leads to more ratters to shoot as well
Better rats = more attractive 0.0 = more people in 0.0 = MOAR TARGETS
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wootonius
Madhatters Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.08.13 15:05:00 -
[156]
Not a bad idea. I like it. :)
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Valtis Thermalion
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.08.13 20:51:00 -
[157]
As someone who lives in Providence... Supported. Best spawns we see is dual 1.1m and those are rare. I just run lvl 4 missions nowadays, ratting isn't simply worth it.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.13 22:05:00 -
[158]
Edited by: Malcanis on 13/08/2009 22:04:54 Same here in Immensea. Made an honest attempt at ratting, then went back to mission-whoring for 2x the result.
hurrah for untouchable, unlimited, non-competing income sources!
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Midi Messiah
DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.08.17 00:02:00 -
[159]
What is the point of having a -0.77 trusec system with 9 belts, when in 2 hours of ratting, biggest spawn I get is: 2 x Blood Harbinger (1.25mil).
20% of time I go through all belts, just to find no spawns anywhere in belts.
Frigs, cruisers, battlecruisers spawn 80% of time.
I can't even make money ratting, I'm making money by trading in empire.
And no, I can't spend 10 hours ratting in order to get more valuable spawns, then chain them. EVE should not be a damn job...
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Orb Lati
ANZAC ALLIANCE Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.08.17 00:55:00 -
[160]
While in principle i would agree with the OPs sentiment i do however wish to point out another aspect of his proposal that will need to be addressed. That is inflation.
If your going to introduce higher bounty earning potential through a mass pruning of cruiser and bad spawns from 0.0 space as well as increasing spawn rate then you also need more ways of getting that money back out of the game or you'll end up with prices skyrocketing.
Also if your going to improve rating of a system then there must also be an equivalent mechanic of destroying sec rating, either through a natural entropy process or player actions other wise in a few months you'll find every system has a true sec status of -1.0.
Finally while i see this as an improvement to 0.0 ratting as an incentive to reconsider lvl4 missions i dont see this is an improvement to mining which use to be a major benefit to holding some 0.0 space. Mining as a profession has never really recovered from the introduction of the Drone regions which IMHO was the biggest blunder of CCP to date.
Ideally what i would like to see would be another 0.0 predominant consumable group that would be gained in 0.0 space (plexing/mining) which would be required by the player base.
"We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
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Yon Krum
The Knights Templar R.A.G.E
|
Posted - 2009.08.17 03:20:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Dexter Filmore Edited by: Dexter Filmore on 05/08/2009 21:52:22 I'd disagree that highsec mission running is the most profitable PvE activity in the game.
Wormhole space is definitely where it's at, folks, and that's everywhere.
The way I see it, highsec is space for solo players, lowsec is a bit of a mix and 0.0 is where the alliances play. Solo activities should not be even comparatively profitable out in 0.0 because that's not what you're there for in the first place.
If you have the player infrastructure set up, you should be running exploration sites and Class 3+ Wormholes for your isk. It's more fun, a better, less-boring way to spend time and makes you loads of cash.
You make good points and have good solutions, but there is absolutely no reason you should not be running wormholes. Any Class 3 wh can be cleared with 3 Remote Rep BS and a salvager/hacker/analyzer. I've been on wormhole ops that have brought in over 3.5billion isk split 10 ways and for only a few hours work.
Correct that W-space operations are more profitable than even highsec mission-running.
Incorrect that this fact derails the essential point of the OP.
Any activity in EVE, when done with an organized group, becomes both faster and more productive. However for 0.0 organizing those operations becomes a luxury inbetween the necessary defense ops, wars, and whatnot. The fact that much of 0.0 space is lackluster in quality, and for ratting or mining each system will support only a few players at once, drives pilots apart during short play-periods.
If 0.0 did not come with the burden of defending what you "own", then perhaps the premise of it being the "group playground" (which W-space *is*) could be reasonable.
----
To the OP's ideas: kudos to a reasonably cognizant set of suggestions. Supported, since they fall in line with some similar thoughts I posted before--particularly regarding the core idea of player-built items improving the profitability of a system.
I feel that area, however, could and should be incorporated into a more diverse set of structures, probably in with other measures for investing in the defense and value of systems.
Regardless of the specifics, 0.0 needs some hard thinking by now.
--Krum
--Krum |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.08.17 03:32:00 -
[162]
I had an idea of how to improve 0.0 without raising inflation of flooding the markets with faction gear:
Create new Cruiser sized officer spawns that can happen in ANY 0.0 region. They would work very similar to current officers, but they would drop only cruiser sized modules - modules that are not currently in the loot tables of current officers and complexes. This mostly focuses on new officer medium guns/missile launchers. And also x-type cruiser sized mods that currently don't drop. We could also create new faction mods out of ECCM, racial ECM, shield extenders, plates - there are actually quite a bit of modules that have no high meta variant.
This would create a new type of good that does not increase supply of already existing modules and does not inject massive isk amounts into the game. It's main effect would be to shift profitability from high sec empire to 0.0 space.
The spawn rates for these things would need to remain at same levels at current officer spawns, not more, not less.
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Yakov Draken
Tides Of War
|
Posted - 2009.08.17 03:38:00 -
[163]
Supported.
The good thing about ratting as an isk earning activity is that it spreads people out providing a basis for small scale conflict.
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Mr LaboratoryRat
Confederation of DuckTape Lovers
|
Posted - 2009.08.17 15:33:00 -
[164]
Edited by: Mr LaboratoryRat on 17/08/2009 15:33:19
Originally by: Ephemeron
The spawn rates for these things would need to remain at same levels at current officer spawns, not more, not less.
A good idea in general but this would increase the price from other officer mods because there is a limited time a player rat and a infinite chance on spawning officers.
Originally by: Midi Messiah What is the point of having a -0.77 trusec system with 9 belts, when in 2 hours of ratting, biggest spawn I get is: 2 x Blood Harbinger (1.25mil).
20% of time I go through all belts, just to find no spawns anywhere in belts.
Frigs, cruisers, battlecruisers spawn 80% of time.
I can't even make money ratting, I'm making money by trading in empire.
And no, I can't spend 10 hours ratting in order to get more valuable spawns, then chain them. EVE should not be a damn job...
U should not complain delve is very very good broken.... u can get a officer spawn in every system there so delve should not get any improvements or it shoul be 'fixed" properly
Originally by: Orb Lati
If your going to introduce higher bounty earning potential through a mass pruning of cruiser and bad spawns from 0.0 space as well as increasing spawn rate then you also need more ways of getting that money back out of the game or you'll end up with prices skyrocketing.
looool, im gallente and i need to 'work" 11 hours for a fitted pvp Deimos (20/220m t2 fit + rigs). Its allready broken... they only need to fix it now. Now the question raises how fast can i lose a deimos... I think i dont have to answere that, the nickname Diemost saiz enough
It became broken ever since the high increase in mission runners a year or 2 ago. Mission income raised 0.0 rat income said the same. Now u tell me where that inflation came from? Carebears dont spend isk , well maybe they do but they dont brake it, no lose no isk sink. 0.0 ratters buy ships and blow them up, how much is insurance these days on a T2 hac? 7 mil?
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Midi Messiah
DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.08.17 20:20:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Mr LaboratoryRat
Originally by: Midi Messiah What is the point of having a -0.77 trusec system with 9 belts, when in 2 hours of ratting, biggest spawn I get is: 2 x Blood Harbinger (1.25mil).
20% of time I go through all belts, just to find no spawns anywhere in belts.
Frigs, cruisers, battlecruisers spawn 80% of time.
I can't even make money ratting, I'm making money by trading in empire.
And no, I can't spend 10 hours ratting in order to get more valuable spawns, then chain them. EVE should not be a damn job...
U should not complain delve is very very good broken.... u can get a officer spawn in every system there so delve should not get any improvements or it shoul be 'fixed" properly
I am not ratting in Delve, you mongoloid. I am ratting in Querious.
God damn, so many dumb people around... |
Mal Neutrino
|
Posted - 2009.08.18 00:36:00 -
[166]
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Skittnator
|
Posted - 2009.08.18 02:26:00 -
[167]
signed
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Mr John22ta
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.08.18 13:03:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Ephemeron I had an idea of how to improve 0.0 without raising inflation of flooding the markets with faction gear:
Create new Cruiser sized officer spawns that can happen in ANY 0.0 region. They would work very similar to current officers, but they would drop only cruiser sized modules - modules that are not currently in the loot tables of current officers and complexes. This mostly focuses on new officer medium guns/missile launchers. And also x-type cruiser sized mods that currently don't drop. We could also create new faction mods out of ECCM, racial ECM, shield extenders, plates - there are actually quite a bit of modules that have no high meta variant.
This would create a new type of good that does not increase supply of already existing modules and does not inject massive isk amounts into the game. It's main effect would be to shift profitability from high sec empire to 0.0 space.
The spawn rates for these things would need to remain at same levels at current officer spawns, not more, not less.
Awesome idea.
OP supported.
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Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2009.08.18 16:42:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Mr John22ta
Originally by: Ephemeron I had an idea of how to improve 0.0 without raising inflation of flooding the markets with faction gear:
Create new Cruiser sized officer spawns that can happen in ANY 0.0 region. They would work very similar to current officers, but they would drop only cruiser sized modules - modules that are not currently in the loot tables of current officers and complexes. This mostly focuses on new officer medium guns/missile launchers. And also x-type cruiser sized mods that currently don't drop. We could also create new faction mods out of ECCM, racial ECM, shield extenders, plates - there are actually quite a bit of modules that have no high meta variant.
This would create a new type of good that does not increase supply of already existing modules and does not inject massive isk amounts into the game. It's main effect would be to shift profitability from high sec empire to 0.0 space.
The spawn rates for these things would need to remain at same levels at current officer spawns, not more, not less.
Awesome idea.
OP supported.
I could get on that, if and only if every faction item is put on the market. |
Wadddi
Paxton Federation
|
Posted - 2009.08.29 18:33:00 -
[170]
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Stil Harkonnen
|
Posted - 2009.08.29 21:52:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Stil Harkonnen on 29/08/2009 21:52:11 supported.
Right now as a pvper (not a pirate, cause i rarely ransom, i just do it for the fights), I am forced to keep my security status to -3.99 or higher because I can't make enough isk in lowsec to justify going -10. I have to run missions in highsec. This is forcing me to NOT pvp because I can't afford the sec hits. I have been currently exploring exploration and plexing to maybe earn enough isk in lowsec to move there permanently again. Also the fix OP said would help tremendously.
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MiserySignals
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.08.29 22:24:00 -
[172]
I've been tricked into voting to nerf the perfect truesec in my ratting system
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Nick Bison
Gallente Bison Industrial Inc
|
Posted - 2009.10.07 16:56:00 -
[173]
Folr all the folk out in 0.0 alliances, ISK per hour wouldn't be a huge issue if your alliance leaders would just come up off some of the ISKies from the moons.
<jk> saw this was already in a raised to CSM vote and was wondering if their was any update or possible changes we may be expecting?
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.10.07 17:02:00 -
[174]
Everything that brings more people in the belts is a good thing.
Suported.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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