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Gunnar Twenty
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
0
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Posted - 2012.05.26 21:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
Preamble
It's no secret that people at the top of most skill-intensive activities tend to be ones with an imbalanced lifestyle. You have to dedicate yourself fully if you want to be the best at something, often at the expense of life's other priorities. Principally for this reason, I have only ever played EVE intermittently and casually. I was always enticed by "internet spaceships" and its associated community on an abstract level, but the hands-on experience of EVE's game mechanics, the logistics, and the long hours of commitment required to reap the rewards of good PvP somehow always wore me down in short manner.
I was on a longer than typical hiatus from the game when I was informed that Hydra had been disqualified from AT10. My heart sank with this news. Some pilots in Hydra I've known intimately for over a decade (in fact I convinced Duncan Tanner to stick with EVE after he initially found it unbearably dull and lifeless running L3 missions in his Brutix), some I now socialize with outside of the game as a result of it, but near unanimously I have become acquainted with the kind yet driven nature of the members in this Alliance.
Immediately I started mulling on how I might possibly lend help to Hydra's plight. I figured my best bet would be to write an impassioned speech and resub so I could login and post it in the EVE Forum. So here goes.
A Call to Reason
I am going to try my best here to inject some much needed perspective into this issue. There's a lot of hateful fumes flowing around, and this is my attempt to clear the air. It might well be a futile one, but I intensely hope Sreegs, the AT10 governance team, or even someone higher up at CCP perusing these forums might be impacted to remediate, despite their current reluctance to negotiate.
First I will ask you to consider how these measures will affect the long term health of this game. I mentioned before my casual attitude towards EVE earlier. The elite members of Hydra who practice in preparation for AT10 adopt an entirely opposite attitude. Many of them spend more hours on EVE than they do at their day jobs. Such zeal is often either respected or ridiculed, but one thing's for sure - nobody ever achieved anything great while half-assing it. These people want to achieve great things through EVE. As ridiculous as it may appear to the rest of us, EVE is the most important conduit through which they define their achievements in life. So how do you think it makes them feel when you callously impose such sanctions? Most are going to feel grief only matched by their prior passion for the game. I imagine most will quit when they realize how little their effort and enthusiasm for the game is reciprocated in the form of appreciation by the developers. I will do likewise, as I cannot condone an organization who shows such little consideration for its most ardent supporters.
Big deal you say. The mere tens of Hydra subscribers lost will be too insignificant to count. But surely there will be a ripple effect. These are the players who most newcomers strive to eventually emulate (at least when it comes to ship combat). They understand the finer details of the game, and have achieved a level of mastery worth learning from. They form part of the hardcore contingent. From what I gather, the rest of Eve's seasoned veterans are in unanimous support of Hydra and OB (In my humble opinion, the few who mock and revel in their current plight, or feel that appropriate justice has been meted, are distant and casual observers without a firm grasp of the facts and implications). It's common business sense not to **** off your hardcore supporters. In Eve this is doubly true, as it is very casual-unfriendly. These seasoned players have stuck with game through all vicissitudes. They are immensely loyal to the game, always putting into perspective temporary missteps by developers and persisting imperfections in the game by emphasizing enjoyment of the big picture. They form the backbone from which newcomers can perch on and benefit from years of accrued insight into the well hidden rewards of playing Eve for the long run. They are the best endorsers of Eve that money can buy, and you get their services free of charge! The current PC games market is gravitating towards Free to Play. With the intense competition for market share and the abundance of choice available to the casual experimenter, does it make sense to take on the burden of Eve's hefty financial commitment unless a person has aims to becoming one of these hardcore players? One elite player could impact hundreds of newcomers to hang in there and become repeat customers. |
Gunnar Twenty
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
0
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Posted - 2012.05.26 21:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bad Blood over AT9
I spoke in the previous paragraph about justice being done to Hydra & OB as a running theme. I am going to try and redress the notion that Hydra & OB somehow committed grave sins in AT9 by covering my view of some facts already in the public domain.
Firstly, no rules were broken. The teams played by all of them. They are not obligated to entertain you as they would be in an exhibition match, just as Chelsea were not obligated to play entertaining football in the European Cup. The true connoisseur of competitive games and sports recognizes that the value in such ventures lies not in some nebulous and inherently subjective notion of "entertainment", but in the evolution of strategies and tactics that participants devise for the purpose of winning.
But if we must talk about "entertainment", the tournament certainly wasn't short of it. The matches PL vs Darkside, PL vs Hydra, and OB vs Darkside would all fit classical notions of entertaining, hard fought matches. Indeed, the final was potentially shaping up to be a similar spectacle. Practice and testing done by the two teams showed that the Vindicator and Minrush setups were very evenly matched. They were the two best setups theory-crafted, and neither team knew who was going to come out ahead. It turned out Hydra pilots screwed up activating their guns, and thus OB built a surprisingly decisive early lead.
Now this is the point where most of you like to remind us that Hydra/OB fixed the outcome by staging the solo Vindi comeback. In fact this could not be farther from the truth. The camaraderie between the two teams was strong as a result of their extended cooperation, to the point where bonds of friendship formed such that neither team wanted to cause the other to lose. The "debacle" you saw was a result of this empathy. But it was not coordinated. For the match, the teams were on different voice communication servers, under different leadership. Hydra pilots were under the direction of Garmon, and OB was under the leadership of (I think) Zara. Both teams went in intending to fight for victory. But something happened as OB were about to clinch the win. The team unanimously displayed a change of heart. They wanted to express their appreciation to Garmon for masterminding the whole joint venture between the two alliances by printing Hydra's name on the trophy instead.
It speaks to your incompetence that you couldn't bring this touching story to light. A team willing to fall on its sword for what it perceived to be a greater cause? What could be construed as a noble gesture was quashed beneath the outrage of a clamorous few. I find this unfortunate. I think plenty could have related and empathized with these two great alliances and their motives if you had helped facilitate spreading awareness of the real machinations behind the scenes. I am also partly confused. What personal injury could this have caused to CCP to have you react in the manner you did? You should not be so upset that events did not proceed according to your script. The narratives of life are enriched by serendipity.
In conclusion to this point, I just can't see how a reasonable person can consider all the facts and have a negative lasting impression of AT9.
AT10 - It's Not too Late to Reverse your Decision
I am told there is still 1 tournament slot for auction. At this point, I'm sure Hydra and OB would be willing to form one team to compete, even though ironically they really wanted to compete against each other this year.
I'm not here to argue the technicalities of the crime as others may have done. Whatever error the teams may have committed, the fact is that the tournament is still over a month away. I can't see any rational reason you need to remove them from the tournament at this point, and I've tried really hard. If they both went their separate ways now, they would each still have over a month to devise new setups and strategies as independent organizations, now that they know definitively the rules of practice on SISI. I am sure by the end of such a period of training the two organizations will have sufficiently differentiated to be considered two separate entities. On the other hand if you do not agree, at least let them truly merge as one entity and compete. Why punish such avid fans and prevent them playing your game? They have not tarnished the upcoming tournament in any way - it would simply be impossible to do that at this point! I am reading people say they are banned because it is looking like they will repeat the exact same thing they did last year. But if you let them merge then you reduce the probability of that occurrence to zero, without an associated reduction the quality of competition. Let level heads prevail, and let us have an enjoyable tournament not marred by needless controversy. |
Officer Nyota Uhura
246
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 21:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Please stop posting these.
HTFU and move on. |
JEFFRAIDER
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
74
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 22:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Gunnar Twenty wrote: I am told there is still 1 tournament slot for auction. At this point, I'm sure Hydra and OB would be willing to form one team to compete, even though ironically they really wanted to compete against each other this year.
hahahahaha goddamn |
R0ot
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 22:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
TLDR;
Also no. Get on with the CAOD drama post where Hydra / Outbreak split up and form a third corp which enters AT XI to "kick some ass" and then you guys practice together on the test server except this time you do it in 2 wormholes! *
* this may be a slight exaggeration.... |
Norma Rae
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 22:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Quit crying already. |
JEFFRAIDER
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
74
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 22:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Actually let's repurpose this thread:
A Please to Reason: Please stop deleting posts from the locked "Open Letter" thread, you've literally removed 10/25 pages so far. . . |
David Magnus
112
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 22:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
JEFFRAIDER wrote:Actually let's repurpose this thread:
A Please to Reason: Please stop deleting posts from the locked "Open Letter" thread, you've literally removed 10/25 pages so far. . .
Yeah, as I was reading through it the page count kept dropping until I finally stopped reading since all the good posts were obviously removed. http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/winterupdate http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/supercaps http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/pandemiclegion |
michael boltonIII
184
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 22:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
If you wish to engage is reasonable discourse then your constant appeals to emotions of the players and fans are not exactly the most concrete and objective platform to base the majority of your argument upon.
The simple and reasonable fact is that last year, hydra and outbreak, broke no rules but illustrated a gaping vulnerability within the tournament's structure. Their success at submitting two teams, sharing information, and finally their clear reveal of that the fact that they were able to achieve victory due to their close affiliations made the serve as THE blueprint for how to exploit this vulnerability in the tournaments structure.
CCP realized that if some rule were not added to close this vulnerability then the potential for groups of teams or even entire coalitions to for massive cooperative groups would exist, and likely be exploited. Under the AT IX rules, it would be perfectly fine for the entirety of the CFC to enter all of our alliances and operate as a single group with a single intelligence structure and plan to manipulate the brackets to our advantage. This sort of gameplay is obviously unfair to others and would be vastly uninteresting to watch. It is with this in mind that a "B team" rule was created and made purposefully vague so as to cover potentially un-predicted exploits with similar outcomes.
In preparation for the tenth alliance tournament, to spite unanswered mails (nobody will contest that this was an oversite on CCP's part), Hydra and Outbreak decided to prepare in such a way that to every method of outside observation appeared to be identical to that of the previous year. The fact that they were clearly aware that their performance in AT IX was the main impetus for the additional rule and that their method and preparation for the tournament served as the gold standard that the rule was designed to prevent, means that their decision to prepare in such a way as to appear identical to previous tournaments preparation was grossly incompetent to the point of hubris.
If Hydra and Outbreak were to go unbanned to spite all outward appearances that they are once again cooperating as a single team, based solely on the word of their pilots, then any team can falsely represent themselves as being in a similar scenario and avoid a ban. Major coalition blocks could join a single corp on Sisi and simply say that they definitely are different alliances and that they have secret backup forums that are different from the setup forums that they all share (which is what I understand to be the current extent of H/O's claims against Collusion) and similarly avoid a ban.
Hydra and Outbreak are without a doubt excellent teams and performed well within the rules of AT IX, but some times when you push the boundary's you find a ledge and to continue skirting that ledge, even while knowing the dangers it presents, can often result in tragedy. |
Dr Robertson
ImpeviA
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 22:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Officer Nyota Uhura wrote:Please stop posting these.
HTFU and move on.
Apparently half of EVE community and AT team are the ones who didn't HTFU, and are still butthurt after last final. Epic tears <3 |
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Karbox Delacroix
Emo Rage Quit
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 22:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Reason has nothing to do with it. CCP made a decision and that is final. You might as well pray for a miracle because facts, reason and logic aren't worth a hill of beans at this point. |
phalanx III
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 22:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Just give it up. Christ. |
Karbox Delacroix
Emo Rage Quit
23
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Posted - 2012.05.26 22:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
phalanx III wrote:Just give it up. Christ.
Easy for you to say, only your B team got banned. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
729
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 23:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
Karbox Delacroix wrote:phalanx III wrote:Just give it up. Christ. Easy for you to say, only your B team got banned.
You're one of those retards that can't see the difference between what PL, YVDC, and RvB were doing, and what Hydra and Outbreak were doing.
They blatantly said they weren't kicked for the B team rule.
They were kicked for colluding.
|
Karbox Delacroix
Emo Rage Quit
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 23:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Karbox Delacroix wrote:phalanx III wrote:Just give it up. Christ. Easy for you to say, only your B team got banned. You're one of those retards that can't see the difference between what PL, YVDC, and RvB were doing, and what Hydra and Outbreak were doing. They blatantly said they weren't kicked for the B team rule. They were kicked for colluding.
Except we can't read their minds. Presumably the CEOs of Outbreak and Hydra are different people. The same cannot be said for PL and Waffles.
|
Time Funnel
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
149
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 23:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
For those of you following along:
1. SHOCK & DENIAL
2. PAIN & GUILT
3. ANGER & BARGAINING
4. "DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS
5. THE UPWARD TURN
6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH
7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE
|
Suitonia
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 00:38:00 -
[17] - Quote
What about Tryhard Pubbies trolling so they can get an ECM bonused Eagle m8?? |
Joe D'Trader
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
148
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 00:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
Time Funnel wrote:For those of you following along:
1. SHOCK & DENIAL
2. PAIN & GUILT
3. ANGER & BARGAINING
4. "DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS
5. THE UPWARD TURN
6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH
7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE
Thought it was 5 steps. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
458
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 01:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:What about Tryhard Pubbies trolling so they can get an ECM bonused Eagle m8??
You guys certainly seem to want those ECM bonused Eagles p. badly too (so you can lose them to bricksquad) eh |
Zastrow
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
62
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 01:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Do you remember the year that my alliance was disqualified because we couldn't add to 100?
Or the time my alliance was disqualified because we sent our entrance fee to the wrong CCP alliance?
I find it a little hard to be sympathetic to a team that deliberately and intentionally tried to toe the rules line and got disqualified, especially when the rule was created specifically for them. Lesson learned, and there's always next year. |
|
Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
173
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 01:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
Cheat less and you might not get barred from tourny's
This is like a steroid-pumped sprinter being barred from the olympics, and then complaining about it There should be a rather awesome pic here |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
731
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 03:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
Karbox Delacroix wrote:
Except we can't read their minds. Presumably the CEOs of Outbreak and Hydra are different people. The same cannot be said for PL and Waffles.
Hi, you're dumb, the CEO of Pandemic Legion is Shamis Orzoz, the CEO of waffles is not, nor has it ever been, Shamis Orzoz.
I hope this helps you understand how stupid you look, because you have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about and didn't even have the reading comprehension skills to understand what CCP wrote.
You should read it again, the CEO of waffles is a PL memeber, of course we would have a man from PL as the headmaster to the school, but we weren't colluding, I see you may have a problem understanding what that word means, you should look it up, and know that IT is the reason you should be angry....at Hyxra. |
Gunnar Twenty
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
13
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 04:01:00 -
[23] - Quote
Zastrow wrote:Do you remember the year that my alliance was disqualified because we couldn't add to 100?
Or the time my alliance was disqualified because we sent our entrance fee to the wrong CCP alliance?
I find it a little hard to be sympathetic to a team that deliberately and intentionally tried to toe the rules line and got disqualified, especially when the rule was created specifically for them. Lesson learned, and there's always next year.
I'm ignorant of much of the history of this game, but based on what you say, it does sound extremely unfortunate to hinder players' endeavors on such trivial technicalities as you bring up. I wouldn't have wished those outcomes for your alliance. I question the need to repeat past mistakes. There is no need for CCP to endure in such consistent callousness towards its player base.
These measures only serve to permeate an aura of negativity. I am a proponent of constructive rather than destructive solutions. I'm not defending the actions of my alliance. I'll accept the fact they screwed up, or cheated if you prefer. But there's over a month to go before the tournament starts. In no way has the upcoming tournament been irreversibly tarnished by their actions. Excluding these players from participation is the harshest sanction you could possibly impose as this is the element of the game they are most passionate about, and serves no constructive benefit, meanwhile fostering much ill will.
Couldn't some compromising form of punishment be reached? This isn't a comprehensive brainstorm of alternatives by the way, but a couple examples off the top of my head:
- Monetary Fine
- Suspended Sentence to be imposed on any future misbehavior
|
Hroya
51
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 04:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
@Gunnat Twenty,
Well written and a pleasure to read eventhough english isnt my native language. I am going to agree with you for what it's worth. And in my personal opinion the majority of players, as far as i noticed on these forums, usually tend to act like midieval lynchmobs when someone screams heretic.
Good luck with your plea, though i doubt it will change much.
You go your corridor but. |
Karbox Delacroix
Emo Rage Quit
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 04:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Karbox Delacroix wrote:
Except we can't read their minds. Presumably the CEOs of Outbreak and Hydra are different people. The same cannot be said for PL and Waffles.
Hi, you're dumb, the CEO of Pandemic Legion is Shamis Orzoz, the CEO of waffles is not, nor has it ever been, Shamis Orzoz. I hope this helps you understand how stupid you look, because you have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about and didn't even have the reading comprehension skills to understand what CCP wrote. You should read it again, the CEO of waffles is a PL memeber, of course we would have a man from PL as the headmaster to the school, but we weren't colluding, I see you may have a problem understanding what that word means, you should look it up, and know that IT is the reason you should be angry....at Hyxra.
To quote the great Skreegs, you should read the stickies. As for colluding, I don't really care about that. If I was mad about colluding, I would have to be mad about blokes that bumped Titans out of POS shields. The meta game is what it is, you live by it, you die by it. This is especially true when the most insidious forms of collusion are undetectable because it occurs via private emails and chat. |
Wheedily
Megaton Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 05:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
I'm supporting the OP, of course. Only Goons (and their Dev alts) and PL are not
David Magnus wrote:JEFFRAIDER wrote:Actually let's repurpose this thread:
A Please to Reason: Please stop deleting posts from the locked "Open Letter" thread, you've literally removed 10/25 pages so far. . . Yeah, as I was reading through it the page count kept dropping until I finally stopped reading since all the good posts were obviously removed.
Yes this. Christ CCP this didn't work last time /o
Blahblah |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2387
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 05:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
I felt Hydra and Outbreak has always had good teams in the tournament. It was a shame their leadership had so little confidence in the abilities of their pilots, that they felt they couldn't compete against other alliances without resorting to cheating. It must feel terrible being backstabbed like that, but that's how things roll sometimes. They break the rules, you suffer with the consequenses. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
731
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 06:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
Karbox Delacroix wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Karbox Delacroix wrote:
Except we can't read their minds. Presumably the CEOs of Outbreak and Hydra are different people. The same cannot be said for PL and Waffles.
Hi, you're dumb, the CEO of Pandemic Legion is Shamis Orzoz, the CEO of waffles is not, nor has it ever been, Shamis Orzoz. I hope this helps you understand how stupid you look, because you have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about and didn't even have the reading comprehension skills to understand what CCP wrote. You should read it again, the CEO of waffles is a PL memeber, of course we would have a man from PL as the headmaster to the school, but we weren't colluding, I see you may have a problem understanding what that word means, you should look it up, and know that IT is the reason you should be angry....at Hyxra. To quote the great Skreegs, you should read the stickies. As for colluding, I don't really care about that. If I was mad about colluding, I would have to be mad about blokes that bumped Titans out of POS shields. The meta game is what it is, you live by it, you die by it. This is especially true when the most insidious forms of collusion are undetectable because it occurs via private emails and chat.
What, no fool, they put the friggin rule in that specifically says NO COLLUDING, so no, jumping everybody into a single corp, is simply colluding, it was obvious and they shouldn't have done it.
|
Karbox Delacroix
Emo Rage Quit
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 06:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Karbox Delacroix wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Karbox Delacroix wrote:
Except we can't read their minds. Presumably the CEOs of Outbreak and Hydra are different people. The same cannot be said for PL and Waffles.
Hi, you're dumb, the CEO of Pandemic Legion is Shamis Orzoz, the CEO of waffles is not, nor has it ever been, Shamis Orzoz. I hope this helps you understand how stupid you look, because you have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about and didn't even have the reading comprehension skills to understand what CCP wrote. You should read it again, the CEO of waffles is a PL memeber, of course we would have a man from PL as the headmaster to the school, but we weren't colluding, I see you may have a problem understanding what that word means, you should look it up, and know that IT is the reason you should be angry....at Hyxra. To quote the great Skreegs, you should read the stickies. As for colluding, I don't really care about that. If I was mad about colluding, I would have to be mad about blokes that bumped Titans out of POS shields. The meta game is what it is, you live by it, you die by it. This is especially true when the most insidious forms of collusion are undetectable because it occurs via private emails and chat. What, no fool, they put the friggin rule in that specifically says NO COLLUDING, so no, jumping everybody into a single corp, is simply colluding, it was obvious and they shouldn't have done it.
No, it is not obviously colluding. Being in the same corp is meaningless because CCP cannot monitor the out of game communications. By allowing sparring, they are allowing the sharing of information. Short of an email from Garmon telling the CEO of Outbreak to bite his lip and think of England, you are not going to be able to prove collusion.
If the appearance of impropriety is enough to warrant a ban, then having a PL alt being the CEO of YVDC is a problem. I also have no idea how to disentangle the thorny mess that is DekCo or the various Russians.
|
Time Funnel
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
155
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 07:13:00 -
[30] - Quote
Karbox Delacroix wrote: No, it is not obviously colluding.
It is blatantly obvious they are colluding just like they did last year. Your argument is "you can't prove that they are intending to". Well their actions are ample proof they are colluding. Then your further argument is "everyone is doing it, why pick on these guys?"
MY opinion is that generally alliances that are competing this year are spying / stealing setups, some are sparring, and there may even be a well hidden B team or two out there somewhere.
But NOBODY even comes close to what Hydra and Outbreak were/are doing. Not even close. They are the archetype, the name brand. They showed everyone how it was done, and started doing it again. |
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Intigo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 07:47:00 -
[31] - Quote
CVA & 4th were practicing in a wormhole too. They were considering joining a single corporation to facilitate testing just as we did because they thought it was well within the rules (just as we did). "We discussed forming 1 (ONE) corporation to make these training in wormholes possible; if we wouldnt merge, 4th would have been forced to spend days and days to setup their own pos, to do this." 2 separate teams considered doing the same thing HYDRA & Outbreak did - how can you justify banning 2 teams who thought it was within the rules? |
Time Funnel
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
155
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 07:57:00 -
[32] - Quote
Intigo wrote:CVA & 4th were practicing in a wormhole too. They were considering joining a single corporation to facilitate testing just as we did because they thought it was well within the rules (just as we did).
CVA and 4th were imitating last year's champions and doing everything that last year's champions did. By your wording I assume that they did not actually join the same corporation. You are now guessing their intentions? Don't you hate it when other people do that?
They were following your lead. My starting point was doing the same thing, taking all your setups I could find and watching all the matches. Obviously wormholes are too much :effort: for us.
If you want to be successful you will generally find an archetype that has been successful and imitate them.
Life is unfair. At least you have next year to look forward to.
You can also whine until your account gets muted and then deleted. Then you can get more mad and burn a bunch of alts until they eventually ban you completely. Then you can get even madder and make a bunch of threats and insults against CCP employees. That is the path to freedom! The only way to win EVE. |
Intigo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 08:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
Guessing their intentions? No, I'm basing it off a post by a CVA member that states they were planning to do so until the banhammer landed on HYDRA & Outbreak:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=113071&find=unread
Your posting is so aggressive when you know I'm right. :') "We discussed forming 1 (ONE) corporation to make these training in wormholes possible; if we wouldnt merge, 4th would have been forced to spend days and days to setup their own pos, to do this." 2 separate teams considered doing the same thing HYDRA & Outbreak did - how can you justify banning 2 teams who thought it was within the rules? |
Time Funnel
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
155
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 08:11:00 -
[34] - Quote
I think you are wrong. Completely in the wrong on this whole issue.
And I also think you are in the minority. You can rally all the noob corp supporters you want, and start as many threads as you want.
You don't have the mass you need to make a threadnaught, and you are slowly alienating the same people who will decide if you are ever let in again.
But it is your life m8. o7
|
Intigo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 08:24:00 -
[35] - Quote
This is not about gathering support, it's about getting a response from CCP on the issues we've presented to them. You post much like Sreegs, ignoring every fact presented to you only to try and make petty jabs instead.
Also, there were very few threads made by HYDRA people in here. We consolidated most of the questions in already created threads (which were then locked, for no apparent reason).
You seem to be a tiny bit confused. "We discussed forming 1 (ONE) corporation to make these training in wormholes possible; if we wouldnt merge, 4th would have been forced to spend days and days to setup their own pos, to do this." 2 separate teams considered doing the same thing HYDRA & Outbreak did - how can you justify banning 2 teams who thought it was within the rules? |
Dr Robertson
ImpeviA
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 08:34:00 -
[36] - Quote
Time Funnel wrote:I think you are wrong. Completely in the wrong on this whole issue. And I also think you are in the minority. You can rally all the noob corp supporters you want, and start as many threads as you want. You don't have the mass you need to make a threadnaught, and you are slowly alienating the same people who will decide if you are ever let in again. But it is your life m8. o7
I doubt they will want to try ever again, there will always be chance they will be banned without proper reasons, they already trusted senior GM and it turned out to be bad decision.
Everyone here knows posts wont change anything in this case, so tbh there is no point in posting here (:effort:), i guess most people who posted already are: hydra/ob members - hydra/ob haters, friends on both sides, trolls + people who appreciate work done by both ally on making eve more interesting place (esp. in solo/skirmish pvp). While following a few community forums i can see most people disagree with CCP on this case, especially on way how CCP handled this one.
Also LuLz @ CCP deleting posts including dev replies. |
Ladel Teravada
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 08:44:00 -
[37] - Quote
Intigo wrote:CVA & 4th were practicing in a wormhole too. They were considering joining a single corporation to facilitate testing just as we did because they thought it was well within the rules (just as we did).
Bah. Gotta answer this.
What actually happened (as I was in charge of communications with CVA) was that we agreed to run a few practices with CVA. We had a system that we were gonna run this in and everything was cool. CVA however was really worried about spies and had a wormhole of theirs setup. They offered us to use it if we wanted and if we needed access to their pos instead of setting up our own, we would have to join them. I said no both to using WH and to joining corp and that was it. A suggestion that was never realized.
But please continue to use this as your favorite personal injustice Intigo. I for one am sad Hydra/Outbreak isn't in as I enjoy fighting you and if we (not very likely at all) win, it won't be without keeping in mind that we never got to meet two of the best teams. |
Intigo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
89
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 08:50:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ladel Teravada wrote:Intigo wrote:CVA & 4th were practicing in a wormhole too. They were considering joining a single corporation to facilitate testing just as we did because they thought it was well within the rules (just as we did). Bah. Gotta answer this. What actually happened (as I was in charge of communications with CVA) was that we agreed to run a few practices with CVA. We had a system that we were gonna run this in and everything was cool. CVA however was really worried about spies and had a wormhole of theirs setup. They offered us to use it if we wanted and if we needed access to their pos instead of setting up our own, we would have to join them. I said no both to using WH and to joining corp and that was it. A suggestion that was never realized. But please continue to use this as your favorite personal injustice Intigo. I for one am sad Hydra/Outbreak isn't in as I enjoy fighting you and if we (not very likely at all) win, it won't be without keeping in mind that we never got to meet two of the best teams.
I was just basing it off the post in question, thanks for clarifying. I am not trying to spin it one way or another, I just feel that the fact that others have felt the rules were very vague was a good indication of how harsh the ruling was after ignoring all attempts at communication.
Why did you decline? Did you feel it was too close to the colluding rule? If so, I guess only CVA was confused about the rule as well as HYDRA & Outbreak.
I am not trying to dig you into a hole here, you guys did nothing wrong - I posted something wrong, my apologies. :) I feel bad for the CVA guys who spent so much time preparing in their wormhole only to have the guy who was supposed to bid for them not actually bother showing up for the auctions, it seems. "We discussed forming 1 (ONE) corporation to make these training in wormholes possible; if we wouldnt merge, 4th would have been forced to spend days and days to setup their own pos, to do this." 2 separate teams considered doing the same thing HYDRA & Outbreak did - how can you justify banning 2 teams who thought it was within the rules? |
michael boltonIII
192
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 08:55:00 -
[39] - Quote
Gunnar and Intigo, if you wish to have a logical argument for your case, I feel I have made a particularly solid argument in post #9 of this thread that has gone completely unaddressed by proponents of your cause. |
Ladel Teravada
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 09:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
We declined because honestly... Why bother? The top metagaming teams (and they do exist, trust me.. I received notes from Raivi on Hydra-team at8) are focusing on spying on the biggest/"best" teams. We're not one of them. CVA isn't one of them. No spies ever showed up for our irregular excercises. Another reason is also our pride. We love CVA and they've been among our closest allies for the past 7-8 years, but we don't leave our corps to join another alliance. Not on TQ, not on SiSi. If we had been spied on and went to a WH, we would have set up our own base instead. |
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Halarach
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
35
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 09:05:00 -
[41] - Quote
If hydra and outbreak really wanted to collude to win this tournament against the new rules, they would have appeared to train completely separately but would have shared stuff outside of game, forums voice comms etc. instead.
Anybody saying otherwise is just making a fool of himself.
Garmon and Zara are smart people you know (albeit naive this time for thinking being open with CCP was the way to go I guess, they wanted to trick us anyway and did so) |
Wheedily
Megaton Inc.
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 09:55:00 -
[42] - Quote
Halarach wrote:If hydra and outbreak really wanted to collude to win this tournament against the new rules, they would have appeared to train completely separately but would have shared stuff outside of game, forums voice comms etc. instead.
Anybody saying otherwise is just making a fool of himself.
Garmon and Zara are smart people you know (albeit naive this time for thinking being open with CCP was the way to go I guess, they wanted to trick us anyway and did so)
This, "they got *caught* breaking the rules" is just silly here, of course CCP can monitor their own test server and anyone knows it so if Hydra+OB engaged in something on there they had to assume it will be ok for CCP even with the unanswered emails. Blahblah |
Gunnar Twenty
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 15:19:00 -
[43] - Quote
michael boltonIII wrote:Gunnar and Intigo, if you wish to have a logical argument for your case, I feel I have made a particularly solid argument in post #9 of this thread that has gone completely unaddressed by proponents of your cause.
I don't see what there is for me to address from that post.
I have already conceded to everything you brought up. I will repeat what I said from the first post, which is that I accept Hydra/OB did not meet CCP's definition of playing by the rules.
You mention, and I paraphrase, that a big alliance could do a stunt where they enter 8 fragment teams using the same practice methods if Hydra/OB were unbanned. As I said, I would not mind seeing a combined entry from the two teams. I would also not mind seeing any alternative form of sanction that does not prevent them from competing in the aspect of the game they most cherish.
As for your giant alliance trying to enter 8 teams in the future using the same methods, well at worst they would be similarly apprehended and forced to merge all 8 into 1. But given that there has been no precedent in the Hydra/OB case, whereas after this current incident CCP's letter of the law will be much more transparent, I am not so sure that future alliance can claim to misunderstand CCP's intent on the matter.
So to conclude, there is nothing in your argument that suggests it would be a bad idea to at least let Hydra/OB enter one team for the upcoming AT. |
Cheryl Nome
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 15:22:00 -
[44] - Quote
Gunnar Twenty wrote: So to conclude, there is nothing in your argument that suggests it would be a bad idea to at least let Hydra/OB enter one team for the upcoming AT.
Well you were one team afterall, so I don't see a problem with that. |
Wheedily
Megaton Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 16:14:00 -
[45] - Quote
Cheryl Nome wrote:Gunnar Twenty wrote: So to conclude, there is nothing in your argument that suggests it would be a bad idea to at least let Hydra/OB enter one team for the upcoming AT.
Well you were one team afterall, so I don't see a problem with that. Indeed one team, in AT IX. But I agree with the sentiment that if CCP felt so strongly that "they were just going to one team it again" forcing Hydra/OB to enter one combined team like with RvB would have been the best compromise, instead of this bullshit. Blahblah |
Cede Forster
Graffa
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 16:38:00 -
[46] - Quote
They decided to risked it.
After all is said and done, they took the risk, knowing that it might get them into trouble.
If you take a risk, you do it for a reason, for profit. If you do not take a risk, you do it for a reason too, you do not want to take chances.
They decided to go roll the dice and they lost. The lesson is quite simple, if you have doubt its allowed you know that you take a chance, you know you might get the profit and you know that it might go bad.
It went bad, deal with it. Maybe next time more luck or maybe you decide to play safe because that is what EVE is about, taking risk and getting burned.
On a final note: If you have a rule created (and informaly named after you), you might know better then to test the exact limits because they WILL burn you if they get a chance, that much was clear.
|
ScoRpS
0utbreak Outbreak.
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 17:23:00 -
[47] - Quote
Time Funnel wrote:For those of you following along:
1. SHOCK & DENIAL
2. PAIN & GUILT
3. ANGER & BARGAINING
4. "DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS
5. THE UPWARD TURN
6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH
7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE
I think we're at stage 4.
Time to HTFU and move to stage 5. nice list. |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Exhale.
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 11:14:00 -
[48] - Quote
I heard that in AT 11 only PL and PL subteams are going to be allowed in the tournament, all other alliances are being disqualified/banned under the not-PL rule.
can anyone confirm this |
Nevigrofnu Mrots
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 11:27:00 -
[49] - Quote
Gunnar Twenty wrote:Preamble
It's no secret that people at the top of most skill-intensive activities tend to be ones with an imbalanced lifestyle. You have to dedicate yourself fully if you want to be the best at something, often at the expense of life's other priorities. Principally for this reason, I have only ever played EVE intermittently and casually. I was always enticed by "internet spaceships" and its associated community on an abstract level, but the hands-on experience of EVE's game mechanics, the logistics, and the long hours of commitment required to reap the rewards of good PvP somehow always wore me down in short manner.
I was on a longer than typical hiatus from the game when I was informed that Hydra had been disqualified from AT10. My heart sank with this news. Some pilots in Hydra I've known intimately for over a decade (in fact I convinced Duncan Tanner to stick with EVE after he initially found it unbearably dull and lifeless running L3 missions in his Brutix), some I now socialize with outside of the game as a result of it, but near unanimously I have become acquainted with the kind yet driven nature of the members in this Alliance.
Immediately I started mulling on how I might possibly lend help to Hydra's plight. I figured my best bet would be to write an impassioned speech and resub so I could login and post it in the EVE Forum. So here goes.
A Call to Reason
I am going to try my best here to inject some much needed perspective into this issue. There's a lot of hateful fumes flowing around, and this is my attempt to clear the air. It might well be a futile one, but I intensely hope Sreegs, the AT10 governance team, or even someone higher up at CCP perusing these forums might be impacted to remediate, despite their current reluctance to negotiate.
First I will ask you to consider how these measures will affect the long term health of this game. I mentioned before my casual attitude towards EVE earlier. The elite members of Hydra who practice in preparation for AT10 adopt an entirely opposite attitude. Many of them spend more hours on EVE than they do at their day jobs. Such zeal is often either respected or ridiculed, but one thing's for sure - nobody ever achieved anything great while half-assing it. These people want to achieve great things through EVE. As ridiculous as it may appear to the rest of us, EVE is the most important conduit through which they define their achievements in life. So how do you think it makes them feel when you callously impose such sanctions? Most are going to feel grief only matched by their prior passion for the game. I imagine most will quit when they realize how little their effort and enthusiasm for the game is reciprocated in the form of appreciation by the developers. I will do likewise, as I cannot condone an organization who shows such little consideration for its most ardent supporters.
Big deal you say. The mere tens of Hydra subscribers lost will be too insignificant to count. But surely there will be a ripple effect. These are the players who most newcomers strive to eventually emulate (at least when it comes to ship combat). They understand the finer details of the game, and have achieved a level of mastery worth learning from. They form part of the hardcore contingent. From what I gather, the rest of Eve's seasoned veterans are in unanimous support of Hydra and OB (In my humble opinion, the few who mock and revel in their current plight, or feel that appropriate justice has been meted, are distant and casual observers without a firm grasp of the facts and implications). It's common business sense not to **** off your hardcore supporters. In Eve this is doubly true, as it is very casual-unfriendly. These seasoned players have stuck with Eve through all vicissitudes. They are immensely loyal to the game, always putting into perspective temporary missteps by developers and persisting imperfections in the game by emphasizing enjoyment of the big picture. They form the backbone from which newcomers can perch on and benefit from years of accrued insight into the well hidden rewards of playing Eve for the long run. They are the best endorsers of Eve that money can buy, and you get their services free of charge! The current PC games market is gravitating towards Free to Play. With the intense competition for market share and the abundance of choice available to the casual experimenter, does it make sense to take on the burden of Eve's hefty financial commitment unless a person has aims to becoming one of these hardcore players? One elite player could impact hundreds of newcomers to hang in there and become repeat customers.
NO
Sentence is written down
These dramatic/self-pitying posts will not revert it
MAN UP |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
289
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 11:57:00 -
[50] - Quote
get over it finally, hydra is not participating for a good reason.
I personally dont want to see Hydra vs. Outbreak once again and I care even less about which rule they broke and got banned for. The only what matters is they arent in. |
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Cody Zamorah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 12:20:00 -
[51] - Quote
Let's revert all the way then.
Everyone who has done anything within the rules and then later the rule got changed so their actions are against the rules are now banned for crimes in the passt.
Seems the simplest way to act then. Why stop at Hydra / Outbreak.
Let's ban all the Boomerang tactic users, it's against the rules now, so as soon as they fly a ship again capable of the Boomerang tactic we might aswel assume they will break it again. And let's go on and find all adjustments and let's punish all those who done legitematly in the passt but as soon as it looks asif they use the same tactic (they don't have to use it, appearance is enough) we smack them hard with the hammer.
Now THAT I call proactive rule enforcement.
The remaining 250 players will have all the room they want to play the game without issues then.
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TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Exhale.
33
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 10:21:00 -
[52] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:get over it finally, hydra is not participating for a good reason.
I personally dont want to see Hydra vs. Outbreak once again and I care even less about which rule they broke and got banned for. The only what matters is they arent in.
So what you're saying is that you don't want to see the top two teams from last year returning in some form (i.e. a merged team, just to prevent them facing each other / throwing matches)? You just want worse alliances and pilots, huh?
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Cody Zamorah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 10:26:00 -
[53] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:get over it finally, hydra is not participating for a good reason.
I personally dont want to see Hydra vs. Outbreak once again and I care even less about which rule they broke and got banned for. The only what matters is they arent in.
Ah, but we should care. Because as soon as we don't we also won't care if you get banned for breaking a rule now by something you did a year ago and wasn't against the rules.
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xxzartanxx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.02 10:39:00 -
[54] - Quote
Copine Callmeknau wrote:Cheat less and you might not get barred from tourny's This is like a steroid-pumped sprinter being barred from the olympics, and then complaining about it
THIS.
Learn your lesson and play by the rules next year.
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Cody Zamorah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
89
|
Posted - 2012.06.02 11:42:00 -
[55] - Quote
xxzartanxx wrote: Learn your lesson and play by the rules next year.
They played by the rules last year and they were trying to make head and tails about the purposely vague rules this year as to play within the new rules. CCP admitted the rules were vague on purpose so they would have more leeway for GM's and Devs to "utilize" them at their own discretion. In comes a CCP employee with more than average hurt feelings about AT9 and all of a sudden the rule let's him sway all the way to the left, whereas if another employee with no hurt feelings at all would have swayed a lot more to the right. Where left is tournament ban and right is communication which results in atleast 1 party to enter the tournament.
It's this kind of ruling by how the **** swings that pisses me off.
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Hey You
Spricer Raiden.
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.02 12:01:00 -
[56] - Quote
i supported hydra and ob when they got banned.
but this whining about it is getting stupid and annoying. No one cares what random no one thinks on this matter anymore. So drop it already.
get over it seat up grab beer and enjoy the tournament. |
Cody Zamorah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
89
|
Posted - 2012.06.02 16:47:00 -
[57] - Quote
Hey You wrote: No one cares what random no one thinks on this matter anymore.
Even random nobodies have the same rights. It's not about who has which ticker what decides if their message is important.
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
744
|
Posted - 2012.06.02 17:02:00 -
[58] - Quote
well. they still can meet in nullsec, orbit a can for 15mins, fraps it and call it a match. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Lemster
Disconnected. Choke Point
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.02 17:24:00 -
[59] - Quote
Cody Zamorah wrote:Hey You wrote: No one cares what random no one thinks on this matter anymore. Even random nobodies have the same rights. It's not about who has which ticker what decides if their message is important.
Actually, none of us have any rights in here. It's not a democracy, it's a dictatorship. The dictators have spoken. Whether we sub or go play another game is the only actual right we have. You've spammed enough over the last few weeks that you've made your point, so if you're still not happy why not exercise your right and go play WoW or something. |
Cody Zamorah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
89
|
Posted - 2012.06.02 18:59:00 -
[60] - Quote
Lemster, you should have been that vocal in your early pet days. Maybe then you would have become relevant by now.
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Karbox Delacroix
Emo Rage Quit
48
|
Posted - 2012.06.02 20:24:00 -
[61] - Quote
Lemster wrote:Cody Zamorah wrote:Hey You wrote: No one cares what random no one thinks on this matter anymore. Even random nobodies have the same rights. It's not about who has which ticker what decides if their message is important. Actually, none of us have any rights in here. It's not a democracy, it's a dictatorship. The dictators have spoken. Whether we sub or go play another game is the only actual right we have. You've spammed enough over the last few weeks that you've made your point, so if you're still not happy why not exercise your right and go play WoW or something.
Ultima ratio regum. Louis XIV had it stamped on the barrels of his cannons. It roughly translates to "the last argument of kings." It should also be noted that it is not really an argument. It is not really a defense of anything. This is not to say that when you resort to cannons your position is indefensible, just that we expect a bit more of you. |
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
114
|
Posted - 2012.06.02 21:55:00 -
[62] - Quote
All that text, all that reading...all to just say "Im mad bro" Everytime you dont like my comments/posts the terrorists win and your a disgrace to your country. |
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