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Disdaine
341
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Posted - 2012.05.28 05:47:00 -
[31] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:[quote=Kaaeliaa] Besides FREE CHOICE ALL. If people are so worried about losing implants, why did you put them in to begin with.
Becuase you can train faster. Well when CCP gets rid of the implants you will all be training alot slower. Oh wait you want faster training right... So is this thread really about implants or is it about people complaining cause they spend to long training. If it is just about implants then CCP should be able to delete them without increasing your current stats.
Actually when this thread appeared a couple of times in Jita Hall and Features & Ideas it was suggested that we get rid of learning implants, get rid of stats, and set training times to the equivalent of a set of +5's.
They want to get rid of the cake, and then eat it.
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Onyx Nyx
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.05.28 05:59:00 -
[32] - Quote
Kaaeliaa wrote:Simetraz wrote:THis is just too funny.
A bunch of vets that are scared of some newbie who can pick up +3's for song and dance and what catch up the vets skill points after how many years.
Give me break.
Oh but wait attribute implants or a snake set that could cost you in the range of 1 bill + is okay. Cause those will make you more likely to engage in a PVP fight.
Give me a break all you are getting desperate for trolling now going after some as foolish as this.
CCP already bent over to the crying and made everyones racual stats the same. SO you want to dumb down the game even more and make it so that everyone trains at the same speed EXCEPT for those that can afford 1 Bill + for implants ???
Yeh okay I can see how this is going to help new players.. NOT Actually, removing implants and increasing stats across the board would be a HUGE help to new players and the mildly risk-averse. Personally, I would be much more inclined to roam, even solo, without having to worry about either messing with my training times or losing implants. Keep the implants, but remove the attribute bonuses and just have the sets. Veteran/rich players keep their combat bonuses, new players that couldn't afford the high-end implants anyway lose nothing, but gain the peace of mind to not give a crap about being podded. In the end, the vets should support this. They might get more targets roaming around, like me.
No. Because should this change make it in, it won't be long until someone else makes another idiotic suggestion that they keep drumming on about until CCP caves in and implements it.
If you are too terrified to undock because of the sandbox design, then EVE just isn't not for you. |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
122
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Posted - 2012.05.28 06:01:00 -
[33] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:After this experience, which I chose to share, I personally think that one of the single best ways of getting more people involved in PvP would be if all attributes were set either +3 or +4, and the learning implants removed from the game.
Snakes, Slaves, Crystals etc all have perfectly reasonable combat uses, they offer a significant benefit in combat to the player, and should remain in game as is, perhaps other sets could be added too.
But as for the learning implants themselves... no, get rid of them.
@Alavaria Fera - If memory serves the cost comes to around 14m ISK for the +3 / +2 set for whatever I am training at the time. But that's going to be adding 50% on to the cost of a T1 cruiser, and doubling (or more) the cost of a frigate.
There was a suggestion on this a while back -- get rid of attribute implants and convert those 5 slots into hardwires. It didn't go over well.
The way I've explained implant "logic" to some is pretty simple:
I can afford a lot. I can buy tons of fits and ships, bling them or fly cheap - it doesn't make a difference, literally I can afford billions in losses and shrug it off - it's just isk and I can always get more.
What I can't buy, the 1 thing that all the isk in the game won't get me is SP that I didn't gain by using higher end attribute implants.
It's about not earning the SP that sit heavy on many players minds. The ability to fit & fly ships in this game is a major motivation - be that from a new char still working Engineering up, or a more experienced char trying to "meet requirements" for a given corp/alliance's operations - "need carriers 5 or I can't fly a super" can park a char just as readily as "can't fit an MWD on my frigate" to a newbie.
Only after they have the SP do players tend to find it to be a trivial issue - or once they have a batch of accounts, each focused on different parts of the game, do they not care anymore.
As such, I find them to be a bigger impediment for players to actually get into PvP than anything else. All the rest is just isk costs but the training losses? That cannot be bought and I'd like to see this benefit removed from "carebears" / the penalty taken off of the PvP players.
Yeah, I'd like to see it redressed, like removal of the learning skills - which did improve game play for the majority, by large margins. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
914
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Posted - 2012.05.28 06:08:00 -
[34] - Quote
Mocam wrote:[What I can't buy, the 1 thing that all the isk in the game won't get me is SP that I didn't gain by using higher end attribute implants.
It's about not earning the SP that sit heavy on many players minds. The ability to fit & fly ships in this game is a major motivation - be that from a new char still working Engineering up, or a more experienced char trying to "meet requirements" for a given corp/alliance's operations - "need carriers 5 or I can't fly a super" can park a char just as readily as "can't fit an MWD on my frigate" to a newbie.
Only after they have the SP do players tend to find it to be a trivial issue - or once they have a batch of accounts, each focused on different parts of the game, do they not care anymore.
As such, I find them to be a bigger impediment for players to actually get into PvP than anything else. All the rest is just isk costs but the training losses? That cannot be bought and I'd like to see this benefit removed from "carebears" / the penalty taken off of the PvP players. Well you can buy characters... of course a supercarrier character costs about as much as a supercarrier or something, but you'll lose some of the latter so ~~
400+ days for a Fighter-Bomber IV, Carrier IV, JDC V character (with remaps) Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Wrayeth
We Reach Around Situation: Normal
17
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Posted - 2012.05.28 06:23:00 -
[35] - Quote
My clone costs 45 million sans implants. CCP hates me.
TBH, the stupidly high cost of my pod is one of (but not the only) the reasons I don't fly frigs of any sort or T1 cruisers. Insufficient survivability.
"But Wrayeth, aren't you a 2004 character? Why don't you have billions upon billions of ISK?"
I spent it on PvP ships. And I really can't be assed to mission much anymore. Also, I don't live in 0.0 because sov and blob warfare suck the big one these days, so I don't have access to the other primary means of making cash.
I'm just hoping CCP reduce the clone costs like they mentioned doing at in a blog or one of the Fanfest panels a few months ago (can't remember which). |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
914
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Posted - 2012.05.28 06:30:00 -
[36] - Quote
Wrayeth wrote:"But Wrayeth, aren't you a 2004 character? Why don't you have billions upon billions of ISK?"
I spent it on PvP ships. A great EVE player. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
278
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Posted - 2012.05.28 06:52:00 -
[37] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:So I have come to the conclusion that learning implants ruined my game in EvE, and not just my game, but a lot of other peoples' games as well.
So here's the story; for the past two or three weeks I have not been logging into the game very much at all, and when I have it was just to engage in general chit chat in alliance or its leadership channels, very rarely undocking from station except for perhaps refuelling a POS.
Boredom had taken a hold. I just sat there, watching the skill training queue tick away, scrolling through the other 450+ days of training I had planning in EHQ in order to finish up my support skills, then drones and gunnery.
I was so frustrated with the game that something inside me snapped, f**k it, I thought, and I started looking through my clones until I found an empty one - I stopped my training queue and jump cloned into it. My face dropped as I saw just how much of a hit my training queue had taken.
Ye know what? It was the start of perhaps the best 24 hours I've ever had in my 2 years of EvE.
Hi5 . |
Bubanni
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
311
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Posted - 2012.05.28 08:27:00 -
[38] - Quote
Imagine how I feel... I have to pay 30 mil for my clone without implants... that is the second problem... paying for new clones after you get podded...(not so bad when your low sp) |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
68
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Posted - 2012.05.28 08:39:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cheappo +3's and eventually a +1 or +3 hardwiring it's really not that expensive, and really who's turd enough to fap on pod KM's? -give him a free ticket to discuss his personality issues with a real doctor
This is a game, and a game whatever you do is tedious for such small reward (fun), like it or hate it. There are other pvp games with other reward system like levelling, there's not much difference, it's just another nerd game for internet nerds. Internet nerds always feel special and better then all the other internet nerds playing another game, except nerds whoever they are, are just nerds and less interesting than the average "normal" human being, that's why they have to spend so much time giving themselves credit for internet gaming achievements. |
Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
141
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Posted - 2012.05.28 08:47:00 -
[40] - Quote
OP is correct.
This is also the reason many choose to stay in high and low sec space. Your chances of keeping your pod alilve are much higher so you can do the fun bit and the learning faster bit.
better to add +3 to all characters and remove them - like the learning skills before them they are an unnecessary evil. qfmjt-1 |
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Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
48
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Posted - 2012.05.28 08:49:00 -
[41] - Quote
Rellik B00n wrote:OP is correct.
This is also the reason many choose to stay in high and low sec space. Your chances of keeping your pod alilve are much higher so you can do the fun bit and the learning faster bit.
better to add +3 to all characters and remove them - like the learning skills before them they are an unnecessary evil. risk adverse??
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Lexmana
Imperial Stout
476
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Posted - 2012.05.28 08:51:00 -
[42] - Quote
Rellik B00n wrote:better to add +3 to all characters and remove them - like the learning skills before them they are an unnecessary evil. Or you could give all characters a buff of +3 to all attributes while in low/null. |
Drew Solaert
University of Caille Gallente Federation
181
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Posted - 2012.05.28 09:04:00 -
[43] - Quote
Fecking hell folks. It wasn't that long ago we had to spend a good 2 weeks to a month doing the learning skills and everyone bitched about that (though entirely legitimately bitching)
Implants do not need changing, just because you are too scared to use them in PvP
First up the difference between 3 and 5's is not huge in terms of training time, difference is 3's are cheap. Or if your really poor 2's.
Secondly, when in your pvp clone be smart, Pick two attributes and train skills which only need those two, a good choice generally being Perc/Will allowing you to work on your Gunnery/Ship/Missile skillls. Then use plug those two implants in the pvp clone. Personally I run with 2x +4's on those attributes in the pvp clone for lowsec and 2x +3's if its in nullsec.
If you want to train at the max and not enjoy the game because your too scared to undock in your +5's thats your choice and your fault. Everyone has access to jump clones. Even newbies if they use a JC service corp and set up a clone thats a good balance of cost and SP per hour.
Finally. Think about those poor sods with LG slaves and crystals. They only get +2 for a **** ton of isk! I lied :o
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Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2012.05.28 09:05:00 -
[44] - Quote
A +2 or +3 in the primary attribute is all you really need.
Just go PvP and when your done, pop one in. They are not that expensive. If you know your going for a longer stretch put in a +4. Don't worry about secondary attribute implants.
I left 0.0 space early on. I moved into 0.0 solo @ 3 months in game. Those early days everything is out there for you to train and you need most if not all of those skills now. It can be rough. I actually left simply because I could get more SP in a +5 implant clone and make more ISK too in high sec. After getting a lot of the "must have" done I was back in 0.0. Now days, I rarely fly with implants and on a fairly regular basis forget to train a new skill.
Not of that matters much in the end. Plug in a mid level implant for your primary attribute for the skill your training when your done with your PvP for the day, it helps. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 09:11:00 -
[45] - Quote
Drew Solaert wrote:Fecking hell folks. It wasn't that long ago we had to spend a good 2 weeks to a month doing the learning skills and everyone bitched about that (though entirely legitimately bitching)
Implants do not need changing, just because you are too scared to use them in PvP
First up the difference between 3 and 5's is not huge in terms of training time, difference is 3's are cheap. Or if your really poor 2's.
Secondly, when in your pvp clone be smart, Pick two attributes and train skills which only need those two, a good choice generally being Perc/Will allowing you to work on your Gunnery/Ship/Missile skillls. Then use plug those two implants in the pvp clone. Personally I run with 2x +4's on those attributes in the pvp clone for lowsec and 2x +3's if its in nullsec.
If you want to train at the max and not enjoy the game because your too scared to undock in your +5's thats your choice and your fault. Everyone has access to jump clones. Even newbies if they use a JC service corp and set up a clone thats a good balance of cost and SP per hour.
Finally. Think about those poor sods with LG slaves and crystals. They only get +2 for a **** ton of isk!
You say difference between 3's and 5's it's not huge witch is a wrong statement.
Difference is significant enough for someone to use higher training implants for 12d and + skills, witch usually means you don't log or just do the minimum. Of course when you already have all you wanted as skills you can always post to someone learning implants are useless.
Now, if you can already fly all T2 frigates in all races, all T2 and T3 cruisers in all races, all T2 battlecruisers, all T2 and pirate battleships and at least one carrier, sure, it's not that important.
However, for new players and at least for 2/3 years those have significant impact. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym THE SPACE P0LICE
1516
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 09:19:00 -
[46] - Quote
You, sir, have my respect.
But it's not the implants per se ... it's the pain of losing them, that's keeping people from having fun. (yeah, the difference is important to acknowledge)
Moronic, considering that people autopilot in their pods with hundreds of millions of ISK in implants ... Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Jafit
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
143
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 09:20:00 -
[47] - Quote
OP, that was a cool story, bro.
CCP need to either let people unplug their implants, or jumpclones need to have less of a cooldown and less of a standings requirement for NPC stations. That or I'd be fine with learning implants being removed altogether.
Who actually uses a jumpclone to move around the universe? JCs are only really used for implant storage in my experience, yet they still have the same pre-nerfed 24h cooldown and ridiculous NPC standings requirements that they did when they were introduced in Red Moon Rising, because CCP didn't want people having too much force projection by being able to JC all over the universe. Well If we get a new recruit in highsec who has implants, we tell them to JC to a fresh clone, set their medical clone to 6VDT, and then kill themselves. If we need to deploy anywhere in a hurry then again we'll use medical medical clones. I don't personally see the JC cooldown or standings accomplishing anything particularly useful. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 09:24:00 -
[48] - Quote
Jafit wrote:OP, that was a cool story, bro.
CCP need to either let people unplug their implants, or jumpclones need to have less of a cooldown and less of a standings requirement for NPC stations. That or I'd be fine with learning implants being removed altogether.
Who actually uses a jumpclone to move around the universe? JCs are only really used for implant storage in my experience, yet they still have the same pre-nerfed 24h cooldown and ridiculous NPC standings requirements that they did when they were introduced in Red Moon Rising, because CCP didn't want people having too much force projection by being able to JC all over the universe. Well If we get a new recruit in highsec who has implants, we tell them to JC to a fresh clone, set their medical clone to 6VDT, and then kill themselves. If we need to deploy anywhere in a hurry then again we'll use medical medical clones. I don't personally see the JC cooldown or standings accomplishing anything particularly useful.
Everyone knows JC's have nothing to do with force projection, JB's and Titan's do. Do you think CCP can realise this? |
Eve Orwell
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 09:50:00 -
[49] - Quote
The people who say you don't need to fly around with implants, or only need a few +2/3 implants are the same guys who said you didn't need to train learning skills.
Learning implants add nothing to the game, they don't let newbies catch up in SP to vets, because vets use the implants just as much as the newbies do, if anything, the bittervet who just sits in station with +5s all day gains SP faster than the newbie with +2/3s who runs around pvping.
Pirate/faction/hardwiring implants are a completely different story, because they actually affect pvp itself, so removing them from the game would remove an aspect of pvp, like removing rigs or modules. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3972
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 10:00:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jafit wrote: Who actually uses a jumpclone to move around the universe?
I do, for one.
Then again, I ran +4s from about a week after the LP store was introduced until I stopped training, and most of that time I was in 0.0 and PvPing quite regularly. A pair of +4s is, what? 40-50 mill? TBH, compared to the ISK cost of a rigged & T2-fit fleet BS, let alone Tech 3, that's just overhead. The Trimarks on my "disposable" POS-shooting Geddon cost more.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
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Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
476
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Posted - 2012.05.28 10:02:00 -
[51] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Then again, I ran +4s from about a week after the LP store was introduced until I stopped training, and most of that time I was in 0.0 and PvPing quite regularly. A pair of +4s is, what? 40-50 mill? TBH, compared to the ISK cost of a rigged & T2-fit fleet BS, let alone Tech 3, that's just overhead. The Trimarks on my "disposable" POS-shooting Geddon cost more.
This is truth. |
Dasola
Rookies Empire Rookie Empire
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 10:05:00 -
[52] - Quote
I quess you were not arround when there were actuall learning skills You new players have it so easy now days... [Insert something funny or smart here] |
Tifin'a Ach'ing
University of Caille Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 10:17:00 -
[53] - Quote
Greetings
Great story and some good information for noobs on how to have fun in EVE. I agree that implants are a hindrance if you are afraid to lose them. However, I do not think anything needs to be done with them as far as removal. There are some great "best practices" ideas here in the responses. Heck, a single forsaken hub will net you a new set of +3's for primary and secondary attributes and that's if you die. Your adventures should be an every day event for players not the exception. If there were a reason for diminishing small gang and solo PVP (which I disagree with) its because to many fear lose of anything.
Just my humble opinion.
Tif |
Degren
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1075
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 10:19:00 -
[54] - Quote
I'm laughing pretty loudly at all the bittervets attempting to rip on a guy for fearing to lose something in game.
Implants aren't just your ship, they impact your ability to actively advance in the game. Anyone...*ANYONE*...who has played another game is going to view them as the most important aspect of their character unless they are explicitly told early on that this is not the case, because they specifically increase your ability to gain "power"
Attempting to deny this with snide remarks is laughable at best.
Also, OP, grats on realizing they aren't that important and were killing your game. You are now free of imaginary, self-inflicted shackles. You don't know |
Singoth
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
30
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 10:27:00 -
[55] - Quote
How about an insurance for implants? It should cover the losses almost completely. Less yappin', more zappin'! |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3972
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 10:33:00 -
[56] - Quote
Degren wrote:I'm laughing pretty loudly at all the bittervets attempting to rip on a guy for fearing to lose something in game.
Implants aren't just your ship, they impact your ability to actively advance in the game. Anyone...*ANYONE*...who has played another game is going to view them as the most important aspect of their character unless they are explicitly told early on that this is not the case, because they specifically increase your ability to gain "power"
Attempting to deny this with snide remarks is laughable at best.
Also, OP, grats on realizing they aren't that important and were killing your game. You are now free of imaginary, self-inflicted shackles.
They're cheap, widely available, easy to replace, and it's not a given that you will lose them if you go out PvPing.
Honestly, I don't see the problem. Or, rather I do: it's in your head. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Jafit
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
146
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 10:33:00 -
[57] - Quote
Dasola wrote:I quess you were not arround when there were actuall learning skills You new players have it so easy now days...
...it's a helpless feeling, watching your ibis spin aimlessly because you have no SP in ships or modules so you can't do anything... But I held it together, I logged off and played something else. My boredom was overwhelming, I didn't think I was going to make it. But there I was, with 1.5m SP in skills whose only function is to make you learn other skills... I got my attributes, and then I undocked.
It was so real, I was there.
I'm telling you!
I was there. |
Romar Agent
Ishukone Regional Headquarters
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 10:38:00 -
[58] - Quote
Hey, an idea: If your implants get destroyed buy a new set. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
165
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 10:51:00 -
[59] - Quote
I don't see the huge issue...
I currently pay 18m just for the clone when I get podded.
two +3 implants and one +3% agility implant don't add that much, maybe another 35-40m.
even in 0.0 I don't lose pods all that often (my current clone has lasted me 3 weeks so far and I mostly log in to pvp these days)
does it really matter whether you can use some ship/module a few days earlier or later? just imagine how horrible your situation would be if you had signed up for EVE two weeks later than you did!
it's a trade-off between "fun now" and "capability later" - such trade-offs always hurt a little inside but they are part of what sets EVE apart from other games (where you can have everything at once). |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3974
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 10:57:00 -
[60] - Quote
Jafit wrote:Dasola wrote:I quess you were not arround when there were actuall learning skills You new players have it so easy now days... ...it's a helpless feeling, watching your ibis spin aimlessly because you have no SP in ships or modules so you can't do anything... But I held it together, I logged off and played something else. My boredom was overwhelming, I didn't think I was going to make it. But there I was, with 1.5m SP in skills whose only function is to make you learn other skills... I got my attributes, and then I undocked. It was so real, I was there. I'm telling you! I was there.
Meanwhile other players who started at the same time as you were out playing the game, accumulating assets, gaining experience, making contacts, adding to their game knowledge, boosting standings, learning about transversal, range & how to manage capacitor, exploring the map, trying out different professions and advancing their position in the game in a hundred ways.
But hey, you have maybe a hundred or two thousand more SP to show for that month when you paid not to play, and that's what counts right?
GG Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
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