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sporkmonger
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.08.14 21:58:00 -
[1]
It's my opinion that AFK cloaky SAD techniques and ratters with cloaks have become something of a problem in 0.0. There are a lot of people who "play" the game by entering a populated system, safe-spotting, cloaking up, and watching TV or going to bed for the night. IE, SAD. It's requested behavior in quite a few alliances. Similarly, many ratters in 0.0 fit cloaks, align, and as soon as anyone non-blue enters system, they warp off, and cloak up. In both cases, these behaviors make them all but completely invincible, even when AFK.
I suspect there may be objections to this view, but I think that no one should ever be untouchable while AFK unless they are docked in a station.
To resolve this problem, and quite likely several others, I would like to propose two new items and a new ship class: The Hunter Recon. This ship class would have 2 high slots for all 4 races, a bonus to scan strength and e-war, and the ability to fit a new module: the Thermic Scanner. The second new item would be a combat scan probe that could reveal cloaked ships, but would have a maximum scan radius of 1 AU or perhaps even smaller, depending on testing.
The Thermic Scanner module would alter the presentation of the system map. Any energy source, including cloaked ships would appear as blotches of increasing intensity, depending on current energy usage. If a battleship is running all its modules, it should show up nice and bright. Someone cloaked and stationary should be visible, but just barely. And each blotch should be representative of the total energy usage for the entire grid. So a fleet would show up as a single gigantic blotch. POSes and stars would also show up as large blotches. This would allow cloakers that wish to hide to cloak up on grid with another large energy source. POSes would make for the best defense for obvious reasons. Thus anyone wishing to find a cloaked ship would need to scan every single energy source in the system to locate a cloaked ship. Uncloaked ships would likely be found nearly instantly, and this could potentially be the biggest problem with the proposal.
The objective of this proposal isn't to nerf cloaks, but to simply prevent them from being a complete invincibility button when AFK or when using cloaks in an excessively defensive manner. The Thermic Scanner and the anti-cloak probe should not enable someone to decloak a ship that has just jumped through a gate into a gatecamp and it shouldn't affect highly mobile Black Ops gangs significantly.
Because the Hunter Recon has only two high slots, it can't fit a cloak itself, and it can't fit weapons. It's job is to decloak an enemy by warping right on top of it, tackling, and holding out until help arrives to make the kill.
Thoughts, opinions, objections, improvements, and suggestions very welcome.
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Nas Daq
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Posted - 2009.08.14 22:18:00 -
[2]
we dont need a new class of ships
before the afk cloaker flame on
cloaking should have a timer...is there really a need to be cloaked more than 15 mins?
covert cloaks should have a 15 min timer and it can be scaled down per meta level for other cloaks.
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Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.08.14 22:26:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Karentaki on 14/08/2009 22:27:18 NO.
I don't know how many times we need to tell you that there doesn't need to be a way to find cloaked ships. A cloaked ship with an AFK pilot CANNOT HURT YOU. Learn this, then learn to rat using PvP-fitted ships. If your alliance can't cope with a single afk cloaker, I don't know how you manage to hold your space TBH.
Edit: to the guy above me: do you even fly a covops? I regularly stay cloaked for an hour or more, and I very rarely go AFK while cloaked.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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sporkmonger
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.08.14 22:28:00 -
[4]
You can't really put a duration and high energy usage on cloaks because there isn't a size-class for the module. If frigates would cap out after a few minutes, cruisers and battleships would shrug it off, and conversely, if cruisers or battleships would cap out after a few minutes, frigates wouldn't be able to cloak for more than a few seconds. Any ship with bonuses to cloaking energy usage would still be able to AFK SAD. So you'd really have to put a hard timer on it to do that, and honestly, I'm not sure I care for that option. Are there any other modules in the game with hard timers on them?
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sporkmonger
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.08.14 22:29:00 -
[5]
Karentaki, to clarify -- I'm the one doing the SADing in most cases. I've been asked to SAD while AFK and I hate the thought.
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sporkmonger
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.08.14 22:36:00 -
[6]
Additionally, finding a cloaky with these scan probes should still be very, very hard to do. The probes would have a lower effective scan strength against cloaked ships. Any cloaked ship that's not AFK would see the probes out and warp out long before anyone got a warp-in.
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Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.08.14 22:37:00 -
[7]
Originally by: sporkmonger Karentaki, to clarify -- I'm the one doing the SADing in most cases. I've been asked to SAD while AFK and I hate the thought.
I don't care who is doing it (or not doing it), the point is that cloaking is a mechanic put in as a counter to the omnipotent scanner/probes. You (or the enemy) have plenty of chances to catch cloaked ships as it is. Adding a time limit would destroy covops'/recons' role as long range scouts in 0.0, and allowing them to be probed would essentially remove the option of cloaked scouts completely. Every fleet would have one (or 10) of these hunter recons, and cloaks would suddenly stop being used by anyone. If you have to warp every 30 seconds to avoid probes you may as well just fly a normal ship and warp between safespots.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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sporkmonger
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.08.14 22:40:00 -
[8]
Edited by: sporkmonger on 14/08/2009 22:41:54 That's fair. I dislike the timer concept myself. I too spend hours at a time cloaked up while not AFK, and I don't think that should be nerfed. What I'm looking for is a mechanic that will put you in danger if you stay cloaked up and stationary for more than ten minutes.
And yes, I agree that without cloaks, scan probes would be overpowered. I'm not looking for that counter to go away. I'm looking for there to be no "uncounterable" counters. Which cloaks currently are.
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Craeder
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Posted - 2009.08.14 22:51:00 -
[9]
Quote: The objective of this proposal isn't to nerf cloaks, but to simply prevent them from being a complete invincibility button when AFK
You do relize, that while AFK your not being hurt. Instead of crying over that fact, continue playing the game. Its like having a pet rock, makes you paranoid as it keeps looking at you but it doesn't do anything. If the enemy should pop out and try something, why not have a gang nearby to eliminate it?
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sporkmonger
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.08.14 22:59:00 -
[10]
Again, I don't think people are reading. I don't rat. I solo in a Pilgrim. I'm saying that cloaks shouldn't be uncounterable. That hurts me as much as any ratter.
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Nas Daq
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Posted - 2009.08.14 23:21:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Karentaki Edit: to the guy above me: do you even fly a covops? I regularly stay cloaked for an hour or more, and I very rarely go AFK while cloaked.
rapier pilot myself....i scout/tackle/roam and I have no need to spend more than 10 mins to sneak up on ppl or get past gatecamps. The timer idea that i have in mind can be re-initiated after 10 secs or so nothing to elaborate.
at the end of the day a player is in 0.0 to pew pew or make isk. pvp is plain and simple matter u engage or dock. in re to making isk an afk cloaker has the ability to disrupt my ability to make isk without repercussion!
an afk cloaker may not attack u in a pvp sense but they definitely attack one's wallet and what options does a player have to defend their interests against cloaker? If the timer idea is bad, what tools exists besides waiting around and trying to bait him. I personally donĘt mind engaging the cloaking mofo but the status quo does not have the tools available for me to defend my financial interests.
the current state of this cloakhattey needs to change!
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sporkmonger
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.08.14 23:53:00 -
[12]
I agree that it needs to change, but not because it hurts my wallet. If anything, it helps my wallet. I think it needs to change simply because I don't think there should be anything in EVE that's uncounterable, and right now, certainly cloaky tactics really can't be countered.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.08.15 00:05:00 -
[13]
Nothing is broken. Nothing needs to be fixed. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.08.15 00:33:00 -
[14]
One of the critical uses of covert ships is surveillance. Fifteen minutes is completely inadequate for such a task.
-- Becq Starforged
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
Nas Daq
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Posted - 2009.08.15 00:42:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Becq Starforged One of the critical uses of covert ships is surveillance. Fifteen minutes is completely inadequate for such a task.
Trueą
Perhaps another cloaking device module can be created with no timer but detrimentally affects your pew pew.
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Spud Mackenzie
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Posted - 2009.08.15 01:15:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Nas Daq
Originally by: Becq Starforged One of the critical uses of covert ships is surveillance. Fifteen minutes is completely inadequate for such a task.
Trueą
Perhaps another cloaking device module can be created with no timer but detrimentally affects your pew pew.
Like This ???
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Nas Daq
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Posted - 2009.08.15 01:50:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Spud Mackenzie comment[/img]
1. sure if t2 versions were removed.
2. you are glossing over the recons potency.
why is it that almost every other aspect of this game, if there is a threat it can be neutralized, but with cloaking it is sacrosanct bc the player cant attack while cloaked?
In markets you can play the .01 isk wars or buy undervalued merchandise, in pvp war decs can disrupt the targets organization/logistics chain, but with cloaking if I want to take care of the cloaker I cant bc he cant hurt me? EVE is made out to be some cold harsh world once you undock you are at the mercy of other players antics but with cloaking a line has been drawn?
If you idle in space it is at your peril, just go to Uedama and see freighters being ganked in hi-sec, and they are not afk!
Give me tools to hunt cloakers and I say this as a recon pilot. |
Spud Mackenzie
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Posted - 2009.08.15 01:59:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Spud Mackenzie on 15/08/2009 02:06:18 IMO...
1) Sister Launcher + 8 Sister Core Probes + Virtue Implant Set + Level V in anything with Astrometric in the title = the ability to get a Gravimetric sensor hit on a cloaked ship. Cloaks use a lot of Graviton science in their construction.
This would get you onto the same grid as a cloaker, although nowhere near their actual position.
2) Some variant of the many proposed/suggested ideas for a Sonar ping module. Lengthy cycle time, resulting in a reading of DISTANCE ONLY between you and them. Direction IS NOT given, location IS NOT revealed, and cloaking device REMAINS ACTIVE.
Either a lot of "Marco Polo" before finding out whether you're closer or further away, or having several ships using triangulation to pinpoint. Either way, it would be long, arduous, and give the cloaker more than enough time to get away.
BUT it would still be -a- means of finding them.
I agree cloaks should not be an iWin module, rendering someone completely undetectable for 23hrs a day. But at the same time, they are not a threat while cloaked. Spying is a legal tactic, so anything which nerfs the ability to spy is bad.
Fixing Local would go far to reduce the "Quick, a Red in system, Run and Hide!" response as well.
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Diabolyc
Amarr thx for all the fish Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.08.15 02:19:00 -
[19]
jesus another cloaking dev topic...
Originally by: sporkmonger ... To resolve this problem, and quite likely several others, ...
this - c/p from another same s.h.1.t.¬ topic:
Originally by: Diabolyc about cloacking dev. 1. remove/change Prototype Cloaking Device I to Improved Cloaking Device II 2. put more penalty on Improved Cloaking Device II, like sensor recalibration from 20 sec to 1 min (or more) same with scan resolution etc 3. increase cpu usage to like 120-140 or more 4. and pls give a 1 bil. ships, black ops, same cloaking (Covert Ops Cloaking Device II) like every other cloaking ship in the game
and we can stop with all this stories about cloaking dev.
and signed:
Originally by: Karentaki A cloaked ship with an AFK pilot CANNOT HURT YOU. Learn this, then learn to rat using PvP-fitted ships. If your alliance can't cope with a single afk cloaker, I don't know how you manage to hold your space TBH.
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Mattk50
Caldari House Maadiah
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Posted - 2009.08.15 02:48:00 -
[20]
with the most advanced probes you should be able to tell what grid and warp to the grid where a cloaker is. nuf said.
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Spud Mackenzie
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Posted - 2009.08.15 02:53:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Mattk50 with the most advanced probes you should be able to tell what grid and warp to the grid where a cloaker is. nuf said.
At the same time... everyone keeps saying "We need a counter for every item, so Cloaks need a counter"
But what are Cloaks, if not the counter for Probes. "Dear CCP, people keep using Combat Probes to find me. Can I have a Cloak so they can't see me? kthxbai"
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sporkmonger
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.08.15 03:10:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Diabolyc about cloacking dev. 1. remove/change Prototype Cloaking Device I to Improved Cloaking Device II 2. put more penalty on Improved Cloaking Device II, like sensor recalibration from 20 sec to 1 min (or more) same with scan resolution etc 3. increase cpu usage to like 120-140 or more 4. and pls give a 1 bil. ships, black ops, same cloaking (Covert Ops Cloaking Device II) like every other cloaking ship in the game
These would be a great start, and if that's all I got, I'd probably be happy. But that doesn't stop the AFK cloaky.
Originally by: Karentaki A cloaked ship with an AFK pilot CANNOT HURT YOU. Learn this, then learn to rat using PvP-fitted ships. If your alliance can't cope with a single afk cloaker, I don't know how you manage to hold your space TBH.
That's entirely beside the point. #1, AFK players entail unnecessary resource usage on the servers. #2, AFK cloaky : SAD :: macroing : mining/missioning, IMHO. Both are unacceptable because there's a tactical objective being achieved in-game, with no human player present. Banning/warning AFK cloaky players is too heavy-handed a solution in this case, but the problem resolves itself if being AFK cloaky isn't 100% safe. Introduce even the tiniest element of danger is all I'm asking.
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Spud Mackenzie
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Posted - 2009.08.15 03:15:00 -
[23]
Originally by: sporkmonger Introduce even the tiniest element of danger is all I'm asking.
How about a mechanic where everytime someone starts a new "fix AFK cloaking" thread, they lose SP and/or their ship explodes upon undocking.
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sporkmonger
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.08.15 03:57:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Spud Mackenzie
How about a mechanic where everytime someone starts a new "fix AFK cloaking" thread, they lose SP and/or their ship explodes upon undocking.
And then we'd just start having to start threads about 1 day old alt's posting about AFK cloakers. It's still a problem. :-P
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El Liptonez
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Posted - 2009.08.15 05:01:00 -
[25]
Posting in a thread on a topic that has never come up before in a few hours.
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Joe Starbreaker
The Fighting Republicans
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Posted - 2009.08.15 05:09:00 -
[26]
What a bunch of chickens are living out there in 0.0! If he's cloaked and AFK, how is that a problem? You should be more worried about at-keyboard cloakers IMHO.
The solution to this non-problem is to do something about Local. If you didn't have Local, you wouldn't even be aware of the guy, and he has no way to "attack your wallet" by doing nothing...
= the GOP is recruiting = |
sporkmonger
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.08.15 06:07:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker The solution to this non-problem is to do something about Local. If you didn't have Local, you wouldn't even be aware of the guy, and he has no way to "attack your wallet" by doing nothing...
You know what... that's a really good point. Nerf normal cloaks and fix local, and problem is solved. I like it.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.08.15 06:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: sporkmonger
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker The solution to this non-problem is to do something about Local. If you didn't have Local, you wouldn't even be aware of the guy, and he has no way to "attack your wallet" by doing nothing...
You know what... that's a really good point. Nerf normal cloaks and fix local, and problem is solved. I like it.
"Normal" cloaks have some of the heaviest penalties of any module in the game. Already balanced. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
VonCruix
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Posted - 2009.08.15 06:19:00 -
[29]
Normal ships should only have their Sig radius greatly reduced when cloaked.
Local should be removed, but the nature of scanning would need to be changed along with that.
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Diabolyc
Amarr thx for all the fish Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.08.15 06:45:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: sporkmonger
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker The solution to this non-problem is to do something about Local. If you didn't have Local, you wouldn't even be aware of the guy, and he has no way to "attack your wallet" by doing nothing...
You know what... that's a really good point. Nerf normal cloaks and fix local, and problem is solved. I like it.
"Normal" cloaks have some of the heaviest penalties of any module in the game. Already balanced.
is not true, with all that penalties they are too easy to fit to almost any ship, then recalibration time expire in time you need to warp from ss to the belt (or whatever)... and everything else with that "normal" cloaking dev is wrong. and about black ops, the biggest boost on stealth b. was covert cloak. dev. why 1 bil ship is w/o that? so the most expensive ship in the game who have the main role (one of them) to be cloaked is w/o covert ops cloak dev... next thing - is not right to have a ship with tank or/and dps and/or speed and in the same time you can rly easy fit cloaking dev. sry for that you need to sacrifice something, few turrets/launchers, mwd... idk take whatever you want.
entire story about cloaking dev is wrong. ccp rly need to do something about that.
and for the local, whatever. but i think if ccp decide to change local to few sec delay prob when you jump in the systems with sov or where ppl like to stick in the belts there will be 20 large t2 bbl on the gate.
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