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Minmatar Freedom
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2012.05.29 20:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
I wrote this up after reading this article http://www.evenews24.com/2012/05/29/goonswarm-federation-sponsors-emergent-gameplay/
Emergent gameplay, at it's most basic form, is evolution driven by player interaction with the game world. Hulkageddon and it's extension are carried out under the banner of the concept of emergent gameplay; EVE evolves with the community. Trying to dig the deepest hole in the sandbox and seeing what happens is certainly nothing to sneer at, especially when the builders of the sandbox are standing by with explicit instructions to do whatever you want, within reason.
However, I would submit that the mantle of emergent gameplay is being taken up without really understanding what it means. Hulkageddon is a noteworthy delve into creating ripples in the pond but actions like extending it indefinitely are pushing things beyond the label of emergent gameplay. It starts creeping into the realm of forcibly changing the culture of a community; "play the game our way or we'll drive you out." This isn't helped with the event being sponsored by a monolithic player presence in the game where opting out of the experience is not a viable choice.
This risks pushing the EVE universe into a state where it is no longer EVE. Not dead but not entirely alive either. It risks creating a landscape in the game where events like Hulkageddon or Burn Jita can no longer happen because the player base is no longer able to support it, the player overlords find it deleterious to their economic interests, or the creators decide that too much sand has been spilled outside the sandbox. |
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
383
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
Translation: CCP make the bad guys stop or eve will purgatory! Do you smell what the Lock's cooking? |
Gabriel Kaile
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
I see the lock is already here. |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
499
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Posted - 2012.05.29 20:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
I can't own every tech moon, someone is "forcing" my playstyle of owning every tech moon. |
baltec1
1243
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Or the miners could adapt and start fitting a tank. |
Minmatar Freedom
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2012.05.29 20:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
THE L0CK wrote:Translation: CCP make the bad guys stop or eve will purgatory! Not at all. I'm not suggesting for a moment that we stop things like Hulkageddon or Burn Jita (some of us make a lot of money from that ).
What I AM stating is that we need to recognize when the boundary between emergent gameplay and actually destructive gameplay has been crossed and we're toeing that line. Care needs to be taken at this point to ensure we have a strong and diverse player-base that doesn't just amount to Goon Online. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
939
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Minmatar Freedom wrote:This isn't helped with the event being sponsored by a monolithic player presence in the game where opting out of the experience is not a viable choice. Yeah, that annoying non-consensual pvp. Ergh ! Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Zoe Athame
Fweddit
48
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
The whole point of "Emergent Gameplay" is that it has an impact.
If you want events to happen, but don't want repercussions, I urge you to go check out WoW. I believe the Midsummer Fire Festival is coming up soon.
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Gabriel Kaile
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Minmatar Freedom wrote:THE L0CK wrote:Translation: CCP make the bad guys stop or eve will purgatory! Not at all. I'm not suggesting for a moment that we stop things like Hulkageddon or Burn Jita (some of us make a lot of money from that ). What I AM stating is that we need to recognize when the boundary between emergent gameplay and actually destructive gameplay has been crossed and we're toeing that line. Care needs to be taken at this point to ensure we have a strong and diverse player-base that doesn't just amount to Goon Online.
I like Goons Online. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
940
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
Zoe Athame wrote:The whole point of "Emergent Gameplay" is that it has an impact.
If you want events to happen, but don't want repercussions, I urge you to go check out WoW. I believe the Midsummer Fire Festival is coming up soon. Hm, anything interesting? I hear WoW is all the rage among carebears. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
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W0z3R
Opportunist Enterprise
4
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Posted - 2012.05.29 20:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
It's not a sand box if CCP steps in and tells us how to play either. Buff hulks and /or turn concord into the United Nations instead of the League of Nations.
But keep it a sandbox please......
I support suicide ganking agaisnt players (in game of course.) |
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
383
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Posted - 2012.05.29 20:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Gabriel Kaile wrote:Minmatar Freedom wrote:THE L0CK wrote:Translation: CCP make the bad guys stop or eve will purgatory! Not at all. I'm not suggesting for a moment that we stop things like Hulkageddon or Burn Jita (some of us make a lot of money from that ). What I AM stating is that we need to recognize when the boundary between emergent gameplay and actually destructive gameplay has been crossed and we're toeing that line. Care needs to be taken at this point to ensure we have a strong and diverse player-base that doesn't just amount to Goon Online. I like Goons Online.
And the more threads like this I see, so do I. Do you smell what the Lock's cooking? |
Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry Devil Divided By Zero
35
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Posted - 2012.05.29 20:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ok, maybe OP went too far with the imagination thing, because obviously he can't see the whole picture. But he's right about one thing - it's not emergent gameplay. It's protecting the interests of Goonswarm Federation with heavy propaganda on the side in order to present it as "emergent gameplay".
Protecting your own interests is by all means OK in EVE. It's the "helping the community" and "emergent gameplay" propaganda that's too hard to swallow.
@OP: If a lot of players are playing the game without thinking or applying any type of strategy or protection for years, it does not mean that some evil evil man is going to ruin the game by making them think or use effort for a change. CCP Ytterbium: Yarrblblbgrlblbgrlblblblbblbgrlblblbgrblblyarrrrdrooooooolonthekeyboardlikealunatic |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
940
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
THE L0CK wrote:Gabriel Kaile wrote:I like Goons Online. And the more threads like this I see, so do I. You can lock me up anyday <3 Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Minmatar Freedom
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
Gabriel Kaile wrote:I like Goons Online. I doubt you would. I doubt even Mittens himself would.
It's hard to rebel against The Man when you ARE The Man. |
Zoe Athame
Fweddit
48
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
Minmatar Freedom wrote:Gabriel Kaile wrote:I like Goons Online. I doubt you would. I doubt even Mittens himself would. It's hard to rebel against The Man when you ARE The Man.
Why don't people realize that there are many non-goons who still support what they're doing? |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
93
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
Zoe Athame wrote:Minmatar Freedom wrote:Gabriel Kaile wrote:I like Goons Online. I doubt you would. I doubt even Mittens himself would. It's hard to rebel against The Man when you ARE The Man. Why don't people realize that there are many non-goons who still support what they're doing?
Exactly, im not a goon and i am 100% with them on this. Sandbox FTW. If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
Minmatar Freedom
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Zoe Athame wrote:Minmatar Freedom wrote:Gabriel Kaile wrote:I like Goons Online. I doubt you would. I doubt even Mittens himself would. It's hard to rebel against The Man when you ARE The Man. Why don't people realize that there are many non-goons who still support what they're doing? If I may be so crass as to dig into performance art to answer this (bonus points if you can place it without Google)
"There are those like Norfolk who follow me because I wear the crown; and those like Master Cromwell who follow me because they are jackals with sharp teeth and I'm their tiger; there's a mass that follows me because it follows anything that moves." |
Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry Devil Divided By Zero
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Zoe Athame wrote:Minmatar Freedom wrote:Gabriel Kaile wrote:I like Goons Online. I doubt you would. I doubt even Mittens himself would. It's hard to rebel against The Man when you ARE The Man. Why don't people realize that there are many non-goons who still support what they're doing?
Any large nullsec holders with a lot of miners (human or not) in safe systems are for it. It makes their minerals cost more.
CCP Ytterbium: Yarrblblbgrlblbgrlblblblbblbgrlblblbgrblblyarrrrdrooooooolonthekeyboardlikealunatic |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
93
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Minmatar Freedom, the new stupid. If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
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The Offerer
Republic University Minmatar Republic
77
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Minmatar Freedom, the new stupid.
Posting personal insults instead of trying to participate in the discussion, however, makes you smart
|
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
204
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
As mining is for the most part where noobs begin their Eve life, I hope that they do not get impacted too extremely. The last thing anyone wants is new players quitting after only been playing for a month or so. Unless you really hate Eve and want it to fail that is. On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton where the dripping patchouli was more than scent, It was a sun-á |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
500
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:As mining is for the most part where noobs begin their Eve life...
proof? |
Jame Jarl Retief
Corps Diplomatique Terrestrienne
116
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
When people throw around terms like "sandbox" or "emergent gameplay", they usually only look at it from a single perspective.
For example, we can't limit a ganker's ability to gank, because this is sandbox and if ganker wants to gank, that is his prerogative and suicide ganking is an emergent gameplay.
Problem is, you also have to look at it from the miner's viewpoint. A miner wants to mine, and he doesn't want to PvP. That is his prerogative in a sandbox game. However, when a 30 mil ship can take out a 300 mil ship, something's rotten in the state of EVE. Only one faction gets attention (gankers), and the other side is told to HTFU.
Which is fine, I suppose. Except what happens when the miners/industrialists/whatever, basically what is coined "carebear" quit the game? Well, economy will collapse, for one. Secondary effect will be "PvPers" themselves quitting out of boredom - no carebears to kill, and too cowardly to take on actual PvPers. And actual PvPers will quit due to all of the above. In short order, you have one very empty server cluster.
So, as much as I am in support of "freeform sandbox" and "emergent gameplay" and all that jazz, I think a developer would have to be mighty careless to cater to just one side of the equation and hoping it will somehow balance itself.
On a personal note, I can't even imagine why someone in their right mind would ever even consider mining in EVE. It is such a horribly flawed mechanic I can't even call it "game design". And alienating people who are already doing unfun, boring and largely unrewarding activity in a game where economy depends largely on them? Not good. |
Haulie Berry
137
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 20:56:00 -
[25] - Quote
Minmatar Freedom wrote:I wrote this up after reading this article http://www.evenews24.com/2012/05/29/goonswarm-federation-sponsors-emergent-gameplay/Emergent gameplay, at it's most basic form, is evolution driven by player interaction with the game world. Hulkageddon and it's extension are carried out under the banner of the concept of emergent gameplay; EVE evolves with the community. Trying to dig the deepest hole in the sandbox and seeing what happens is certainly nothing to sneer at, especially when the builders of the sandbox are standing by with explicit instructions to do whatever you want, within reason. However, I would submit that the mantle of emergent gameplay is being taken up without really understanding what it means. Hulkageddon is a noteworthy delve into creating ripples in the pond but actions like extending it indefinitely are pushing things beyond the label of emergent gameplay. It starts creeping into the realm of forcibly changing the culture of a community; "play the game our way or we'll drive you out." This isn't helped with the event being sponsored by a monolithic player presence in the game where opting out of the experience is not a viable choice. This risks pushing the EVE universe into a state where it is no longer EVE. Not dead but not entirely alive either. It risks creating a landscape in the game where events like Hulkageddon or Burn Jita can no longer happen because the player base is no longer able to support it, the player overlords find it deleterious to their economic interests, or the creators decide that too much sand has been spilled outside the sandbox.
You used a whole lot of words to say absolutely nothing.
Try again. This time, try to cover all of the following:
1. What about this do you perceive to be a problem for the game? 2. Why do you think it is a problem for the game? 3. What would you see done about it? 4. How would that benefit the game? |
Haulie Berry
137
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 21:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Quote:However, when a 30 mil ship can take out a 300 mil ship, something's rotten in the state of EVE.
This is complete nonsense. That is not how ships are balanced.
I 1v1'd a Slicer in a Rifter the other day. That's a 400K isk ship Vs a 25m isk ship. I'm pretty sure the Slicer pilot did not run off to the forum to demand that the game be changed because a ship with 1/50th of the pricetag of his just blew him up.
There are some videos floating around of a Velator rookie ship dropping Tier 3 battlecruisers. That's a 0 isk ship Vs. ~65 million.
You spend 300M on a hulk, you're spending that on its abiltiy to mine - not its ability to mine and, also, its ability to be an amazing combat ship. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
987
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 21:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Let me sum up how it will go.
- CCP by default do not give a crap. They don't even do it when it matters (i.e. releasing lolUI).
- Nothing will be done. The huge majority of the playerbase will not know nor care about this stuff.
- ***If*** anything will happen that hurts CCP's wallets for enough time, then they will forget about the high sandbox proclaims and just nerf it with a mammoth bat.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Blabb3r M0uth B11tch
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 21:20:00 -
[28] - Quote
Simply ask and you shall receive:
1. What about this do you perceive to be a problem for the game?
Well for me personally. I have a pretty high pressure job. Some times I just want to set down and veg a bit. Mining hauling etc, is pretty relaxing for me. I actually enjoy it, I have been on a bit of a break from the blobs in 0.0, I'm heading back out in the next few weeks. Ok now, when I'm vegging, I get the bang bang bang, booom. then the Ha Ha Ha Haaa. Got you. Kinda spoils it for me. Know what I mean. Well I'm pretty certain this lot will never concede this simple point.
2. Why do you think it is a problem for the game? See Above answer.
3. What would you see done about it? I believe CCP will quietly buff all these ships in the very near future. Buffed to the point that this will become almost a no issue. I personally, am waiting to see what happens.
4. How would that benefit the game? Simple there will be more players present. I will say this, if it isn't leveled, I will personally not renew my subscriptions. (for CCP's benifit, that is 15 accounts renewed annually) 100% I'm just one simple player, but thrust me, that simple statement carries more weight with CCP, then all your pissing and moaning. I won't go to Wow, I'm just not into wizards and **** like that. I'll most likely see what's new in real time strategy games. I always enjoy those. I might try Chess again, although being a former Grand Master it's tough to find a good game with some one I like to play with. Not really into playing with strangers too much. Never was really.
So, I personally wont be staying too much longer as all my accounts come due in summer if something doesn't happen.
OOOH NOOOS
One last thing. I'm in no way judging anyone's play stile in this game. I'm simply stating that you have totally convinced me, I'm in the wrong place. Simple at that. No Judgments here seriously. |
Suqq Madiq
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 21:22:00 -
[29] - Quote
Anybody who believes that the sole motivation, or even the primary motivation for that matter, behind Hulkageddon is to drive forward "emergent gameplay" is as braindead as the masses of lemmings who fly the Goonswarm banner.
This indefinite Hulkageddon is about driving profits for the Goons off the sale of Technetium and their way to continue to grief those who engage in a playstyle that they do not agree with or support.
As always, the bottom line is the bottom line. And that's the bottom line. |
Cpt Roghie
6
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Posted - 2012.05.29 21:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
Yay ! Goon online ftw. Zzzzzzzz.
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