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Dust 514 Feeding EVE Sov mechanics

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Lira Reib	Posted - 2009.08.19 02:36:00 - [91] Let me see if I understand this. In order to fully participate in all areas of EVE I would have to: Buy a console (which I don't want) Use ****ty-ass console controls (which I refuse to do) Probably pay for a subscription to another game or online service If this new mechanic negatively affects my gameplay, I can see it being somewhat demotivating.
Tomoyuki	Posted - 2009.08.19 02:45:00 - [92] Edited by: Tomoyuki on 19/08/2009 02:47:03 Ok will I am going to state this since most player do not realize that CCP has not released any info on how Dust is going to work so everything is only speculation. (Please post a devblog or something that would confirm your fears) Now on the issue of 13 yr olds controlling sov sounds stupid to me. Based off what I read the alliance has to put up a contract and hire them to fight for you. The only thing that they are going to control which you can't is if you wasted all of those resources and isk because 50% of the players are complete morons and gets owned. With the idea of indy corps just putting out contracts to take planets from major alliances. S*** I wish that would happen because I am a carebear. But what is most likely will happen is that you will have to escort troops and supplies to the planet which the defending alliance has to defend using their fleet. No different then wars being fought today where the military has to take control of sea around the country before they can get troops into it. From what I am seeing CCP is trying to throw in another isk sink since there has been plenty of threads of how so many alliances now field 8 10 titans. This is to make the alliances split up (another words budget) the isk to different branches like either to the expendable soldiers or to your naval fleet. I still say it is too early for anyone to make an informed opinion about it until CCP can kindly explain to the eve population how dust mechanics work and how the expendable pawns will affect the eve universe Also forgot to add. Everyone that is upset because CCP is trying to make more money well last time I checked they are a corp and so this is a business for a profit.
Sue Malorie Caldari Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2009.08.19 02:46:00 - [93] Edited by: Sue Malorie on 19/08/2009 02:52:23 Originally by: Vadinho dust not being on pc is basically the biggest mistake ccp could have made I may agree. Adding FPS is good feature, but only for consoles is bad idea. Seems like EvE has so good rep that Sony want a piece of the cake, by paying CCP for adding some feature for consoles only. As someone have already pointed out, not every EvE players do own consoles. We who don't have console don't want to be forced to buy one either. If an 0.0 alliance do have Sov 4 and by this new feature the sov will reduce to 2 without the alliance can be able to defend themselves, bad idea. Seems like ccp want to allowe everyone to "steal" sov from whatever alliance without need to shoot any POS or structures. Make the new feature for PC as well or skip the whole idea. Cheers, SM
Markus Reese Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.19 05:50:00 - [94] My speculations on how it would be affected for sov mechanics? Well, as one knows, spawns and such are vital part of winning and controlling in an FPS. Maybe an alliance is what offers supplies and defences to a ground force? Perhaps those in space can guide the fps battle around, almost like a fleet command from orbit, as it says it entails strategy gaming. Surface, sounds good. Too me... what does it all sound like? Like any fps, team killing, etc is going to be rampant! Ergo, the only way to make it work would be to have the same type of gain/serious consequence rpg qualities like eve. IE an MMO FPS. Us in space supply, reward and can move, issue orders to the console players. Console people get new maps to fight and conquest on, if lots of bot focus, would make for an exciting battle. In the end, if it is like rpg, the contested sovs are where players will spawn for battle would be good. It can work, but I hope it is like this as a part of sov dynamics, fun, interesting, but not overwhelming. Us capsuleers better have some way of interacting on planets as well too, I don't want to have to log off pc and head to the 360 just to go planetside with my team. I want to be able to fly to a planet as markus reese, with my corpmates and smoothly, albiet can be as a capsuleer, maybe one of the big ships it shows in orbit and guide or watch the fps battle below.
voiddragon	Posted - 2009.08.19 06:12:00 - [95] Edited by: voiddragon on 19/08/2009 06:14:31 It'll probably be something similar to planetside which is connected to sov mechanics of the real game. But I doubt they'll have dust 514 directly interfacing with EVE players. But if they did it could mean that your dust people would gain benefits from having an eve online character? But it's all speculation, I notice some people criticizing above when they don't even know how it's going to work yet. So quit your *****in' and just wait impatiently for this game. If it's anything like planetside it'll be worth it.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.08.19 06:27:00 - [96] Originally by: Jamus Duran Originally by: Zastrow J Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Zastrow J I fail to see how taking sovereignty out of our hands enhances our Eve experience. I need to see more details. I guessing this probably only affects factional warfare, but I have no basis for this, it's just pure speculation. u worried? I dunno why I would be worried but have the rest of you stopped to consider what could happen with a big ass Dust 514 Goonsquad on our side? Yeah. The server will lag due to all the smack talk in local. No keyboard on consoles. At best they do rude gestures towards you :p
Jessica Bains Silicon Moon	Posted - 2009.08.19 06:54:00 - [97] Originally by: theZJ I don't want to buy a console just in order to play that game, and I DONT want to be excluded from important aspects of gameplay and immersion. This. I don't even like consoles, to put it mildly.
Lexa Hellfury Incura	Posted - 2009.08.19 07:50:00 - [98] This is a really terrible idea, tbqh. Originally by: RedSplat The Forum moderation Software known as Mitnal became self aware. CCP had no choice but to shut it down.
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2009.08.19 08:20:00 - [99] Lol at the whines. Get a grip. Do you think CCP is going to gamble thier golden Egg? Of course not. The interaction betweent he games is going to be very limited in terms of game mechanincs. You all take it like he said that sov will be determined by Dust 514. It wont. Duh! It will be part of controlling the system. Most likely we will see planetary resources introduced with this, and what Dust influence is how much income you get from controlling a planet. This fit nicely with the govenorship thing they have been talking about for a few years now. Dont worry, sov will be chnaged in so many other ways soon that this will be the least of your worries... "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Nayomi Minmatar M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.08.19 08:40:00 - [100] I was really hoping that planets would be included in a strategic way focusing more in interplanetary trade and that conflicts would be handled by what sides could better supply their ground forces. It would create a whole new field of smuggling for pilots, blockade runners could be used to transport soldiers, weapons, food, medical supplies to planets. New modules for POSs used to train soldiers of varying experience types based on how long their training time was set for. Pilots could directly intervene by being present at a planet and could give bonuses to their troops on the ground through skills and some sort of link putting them in command for as long as they could stay in orbit, bringing in of course the chance that the general's ship could get taken out. Manufacturing for supplies for the conflict would be important etc. I just hate to think that all of those opportunities to expand on the strategic depth of the game are going to be overly simplified in an FPS, and an FPS that isn't even tied into the history of the game. I must say that I feel slighted as well by the fact that people that have not been involved from the start are going to be able to have an affect on the corporation and alliance that I have chosen to be apart of. A lot of people have invested a lot into this game. Every day an absolutely insane chain of events produces T2 and T3 ships, empires of people that have never met each other, work together to accomplish ridiculously complicated tasks. I'm angry and sad at the same time that there is going to be an aspect of the game that is beyond the scope of the character that I have invested years in. A person plays WoW. They create a character, level it to the cap and then move on to another one. They get all the best gear in the game for their character, then get all the best gear for the next char. Our Eve characters are lived in. They are years old. They have reputations that have followed them for years and will continue to follow them. If it really does have an effect on the game, it takes something away from everything we've built as a community. an angry rant <emo rant>I play this game because young kids can't understand it, get bored with it fast and don't play it. I don't want to have to rely on a bunch of adolescents at all, ever. This FPS, like most others will end up dominated by young kids, I don't want to deal with young kids, and don't give me some age requirement crap because ratings don't keep them from playing. Why is this being done? I want a straight answer about why this is even on the boards. Did some new employee see some concept art for walking in stations and get a h*d on for pimpled up pre-pubescent boys shouting racial slurs and obscenities at each other? Not to mention the ego hit to all the work that the FCs in game have put into learning their trade and dealing with pilots that don't follow primaries? How can we expect them to not only pull off the unthinkable that is managing hundreds of pilots at one time, but also coordinate with 10 year old's who don't give a s&% about anything but their score? How is incorporating a proprietary M$ console add to the sandbox that Eve is supposed to be based on? I mean if you simply go by the sandbox model at all, where are all these people coming from? It should be tied directly into Eve itself, I mean pilots should have to abandon their ships to go down to a planet and if they die, they wake up in their clone station and have to buy a new contract. Tanks have to be built, minerals mined, and then everything has to be moved. I've been playing this game for a long time now. I played the beta for two months and bought the game the week it came out. I've taken some time off but always because I lacked time to play. But this is crazy. I really really hope that this game doesn't come out, but barring that it does come out, I hope that it will NOT have an effect on the game. I am insulted.</emo rant>
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2009.08.19 09:35:00 - [101] Yes, you are emo ranting... I think this is one of the most brilliant moves made in modern MMO history. The interaction will all in all be limited, but it will add more life to the world of EvE. And that cant be a bad thing. We will be the gods the pod pilots are supposed to be, which you dont really feel like now. DUST also add a new element of unpredictability that is lacking fromt the world of EVE atm.. Of course it can fail in a billion ways, but so could EvE. Yet it did not. Instead EvE (or rather the tranquility cluster) was given the spark of life, and now lives its own life. The more people who can become part of that, the better. I dont see myself playing DUST, i simply fail at fps games, but I love the idea that other people will be playing, and that I can interact with that in a new way. For the first time I have seen somthing deserving the label "next gen MMO". Enjoy! "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Commander Ogir	Posted - 2009.08.19 09:41:00 - [102] First comment: AWESOME! And the idea of transporting the troops.... whoa! YEAH! And then the big hit: small carebear corps invading 0.0 bump So, the Idea: Make a new class: Troop transport ships; Use the troop transport as a spawnpoint for your mercs. As long as the ship stays on the planet mercs can spawn... if its blown up: no more resupplies. This would prevent carebear corps invading 0.0 (they have to be there!) and keeping wars even more interesting; I'm already thinking about buying a PS3 for that game.... reminds me of the good old C&C Renegade times...
remo man	Posted - 2009.08.19 09:48:00 - [103] The idea is revolutionary and sounds fantastic as long as the fps side of things doesn't create too much of an abstraction in the control dynamics of soverignity within EvE. It will be interesting to see how the sov changes effect the control dynamic between the two games. So we have the proposed 1 shard - can effect all universe - being morphed(evolved?) into a 2 game - cross platform/interconnecting uber MMO. What a excellent idea, though when i first saw the video i thought "pfft, loss of control over being able to directly effect everything is going to be pants". Two interconnecting games sounds absolutely amazing, though i'm a pc-only gamer and so the proposed direct exclusion from being able to play this new game is frustrating.
Hester Shaw	Posted - 2009.08.19 09:51:00 - [104] Originally by: Qual Lol at the whines. Get a grip. Do you think CCP is going to gamble thier golden Egg? Of course not. The interaction betweent he games is going to be very limited in terms of game mechanincs. You all take it like he said that sov will be determined by Dust 514. It wont. Duh! It will be part of controlling the system. Most likely we will see planetary resources introduced with this, and what Dust influence is how much income you get from controlling a planet. This fit nicely with the govenorship thing they have been talking about for a few years now. Dont worry, sov will be chnaged in so many other ways soon that this will be the least of your worries... Jesus H Christ so much this -.- People really need to stop ragecrying when we know precious little more than ****-all about it.
Nayomi Minmatar M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.08.19 09:56:00 - [105] Yes mine was quite the rant and for that I apologize. I'm just worried that we haven't known for the last three years that it was in development, worried because FPS crowds are not known for their maturity, etc. After thinking about it for a little longer, yes it does have the potential to be great, but it is also a HUGE risk, a risk that could ultimately effect the Eve we've been playing in a very bad way. I'm just worried, I love this game and don't want anything bad to happen to it. 6 years is a long time to have been working on a single character. Yes it could be implemented in a really exciting way and it truly does have the potential to be revolutionary. Also I always secretly hoped that something like this would eventually come out for the PC and he says in the video that it's for consoles. Consoles are like drug cartels, they don't play nice with each other. Look at what a nightmare DLC is on xBox. But everyone is right, we really don't know anything yet. I foresee my alcohol intake doubling until the fanfest and more information. My fingers are crossed.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.19 11:16:00 - [106] If Sov control is based on Dust player results, and no longer on having to mindlessly feed poses all day, then what's so bad about that. Suppose it cost 400 Mil ISK a week to maintain your poses. But now ... You don't have to have poses except to mine moons. You take that 400 mil and pay off Dust Mercs. If CCP wisely sets some maximum prices for Dust Mercs or a limit on how many Contracts an Alliance can have or how many planets they can attack at one time (new skill perhaps?), so that bigger and richer can't hire them all, then it's going to be a wash on the question of ISK. The fact that boots on the ground will impact Sov is very realistic. Just because the USA has an aircraft carrier and the USN blob in the Red Sea, does not mean it controls Kuwait. When it, the US et alia, lands 300,000 troops in Kuwait, then it controls Kuwait. The boots can't get there with out the ships, and the ships can only project fire power so far. If you can't kick in someone's door and point a weapon at their head, then you don't really have control, sad but true. I would not be surprised if the new FW idea of LP for enemy ship kills works into this. Suppose you attack a planet. The Dust mercs start to pew pew. For every kill they get a "Sov point". The ships in space also shoot at each other, and for every kill there, they also get a "sov point", points from both groups going into the same buckets. Penalty points for no ships in space, and for no boots on the ground - thus forcing alliances to do both, Dust and Pod Pew. After some set amount of time, a day a week, whatever, the team with the most points wins. Having it take a few days would also help mitigate the inherit problem with persistent real time RTS, that no one can play 24 hours a day seven days a week. Just a guess The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.19 11:37:00 - [107] To be fair I always wished for a groudn based eve. And with that I mean a mechwarrior eve. Pilotign tanks, mechs. Slow paced, using mind and tactics. NOT another DUMB fps. Fast paced shooty shooty games are the lowest form of entretainment ever, paired up with reasoning phylosophical doubts about life meaning with a bunch of goons.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.19 11:39:00 - [108] Originally by: Adunh Slavy If Sov control is based on Dust player results, and no longer on having to mindlessly feed poses all day, then what's so bad about that. Suppose it cost 400 Mil ISK a week to maintain your poses. But now ... You don't have to have poses except to mine moons. You take that 400 mil and pay off Dust Mercs. If CCP wisely sets some maximum prices for Dust Mercs or a limit on how many Contracts an Alliance can have or how many planets they can attack at one time (new skill perhaps?), so that bigger and richer can't hire them all, then it's going to be a wash on the question of ISK. The fact that boots on the ground will impact Sov is very realistic. Just because the USA has an aircraft carrier and the USN blob in the Red Sea, does not mean it controls Kuwait. When it, the US et alia, lands 300,000 troops in Kuwait, then it controls Kuwait. The boots can't get there with out the ships, and the ships can only project fire power so far. If you can't kick in someone's door and point a weapon at their head, then you don't really have control, sad but true. I would not be surprised if the new FW idea of LP for enemy ship kills works into this. Suppose you attack a planet. The Dust mercs start to pew pew. For every kill they get a "Sov point". The ships in space also shoot at each other, and for every kill there, they also get a "sov point", points from both groups going into the same buckets. Penalty points for no ships in space, and for no boots on the ground - thus forcing alliances to do both, Dust and Pod Pew. After some set amount of time, a day a week, whatever, the team with the most points wins. Having it take a few days would also help mitigate the inherit problem with persistent real time RTS, that no one can play 24 hours a day seven days a week. Just a guess that is not completely true. Example? Do you think russia has soldiers or even any presence on all that vast areas of their land? NO. but they control it because peopel know that if you try to contest it you get a nuke in your head.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Swarm THE KLINGONS	Posted - 2009.08.19 11:55:00 - [109] this just in: Consoles control a large market share. Software companies have been known to cater to this market in hopes of profit. More at 11. do what you do ccp! this ** sounds awesome if you can span this across pcs and consoles, sweet. if no, i guess i'm gonna go get a ps3 ---------- Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy mother***r
666Devious Sinister Elite Raining Doom	Posted - 2009.08.19 11:55:00 - [110] The reason that this is bad because you are releasing your power to claim sov, and gambling it on new/different players that only have a small scope of the entire game. Now yes we dont have all the info granted, but on the flip side, every alliance in this game that has had, has, or in the act of acquiring Sov do this by eliminating variables. It is persistent conflict in some form or another until the current opposition has been neutralized. Bringing in these other players that are playing a different game then us effects their dedication, performance, and loyalty. By the way it sounds so far they dont have the same consequences. They dont die and end up in a new clone and have to buy new implants, or upgrade their clone. What skills points have they trained that are so important that they cant lose them. What gear would they lose that would make them not even consider dying.I seen in other online games when u die in the first 5 minutes everyone else just leaves the game. I guess ccp hasn't made the repercussions known yet to even consider that this new change will be balanced and wanted. They made it sound to me that they do the dirty grunt work on the ground and everything you need is provided by the pilots. Ok then, lets all play dust and see what pilots are going to be providing for us. Since this entire game is based around two things, nothing is free and everything is about war.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.19 12:11:00 - [111] If ccp makes it into a REAL MMO, like eve. With penalties for stupid actions etc. With need for organized groups etc. Then it can work well and be a huge boon to eve. Specially if ccp adds atmospheric flights for frigates. IF its only battlefield style game then this WILL CRIPPLE eve.
Tenchuu Khaan	Posted - 2009.08.19 12:13:00 - [112] Edited by: Tenchuu Khaan on 19/08/2009 12:14:53 The big question is: How many players on the Console side does it take to take over a territory, a planet, a system? ;) I don't see how CCP is going to get enough players on the Dust side to really affect the sov at all. Also, it was a "good decision" to release it to consoles only because then players don't get drawn away from EVE Online.
666Devious Sinister Elite Raining Doom	Posted - 2009.08.19 12:29:00 - [113] I don't know how it wont draw people away from eve to play dust. Dust would be effecting the most important aspect of the game which is sov. It would be impossible for major alliances that have invested years of dedication and hard work to let it fall in the hands of people that has absolutely zero affiliation to their alliance.
Gautan Virdamot Nebula Rasa Vanguard	Posted - 2009.08.19 12:43:00 - [114] Considering how badly they ****ed up the launch of FW I have little hope for this being a good first impression either and from there on it'll probably die off where a handful of EVE players with consoles will work both ends. Did anyone fraps it?
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.19 12:45:00 - [115] Originally by: Seishi Maru that is not completely true. Example? Do you think russia has soldiers or even any presence on all that vast areas of their land? NO. but they control it because peopel know that if you try to contest it you get a nuke in your head. Your very question contains the answer. "Do you think russia has soldiers or even any presence on all that vast areas of their land" See that, "their land" ... It's theirs, they have sovereignty over it and a cliam to legitimacy. Now send in 500,000 Chinese, who's land is it now? Although the Chinese may not have a claim to legitimacy, leave them there for 200 years and they will. You can go whine to the UN, or put your ships out in the Hong Kong harbor and make threats, but the Chinese don't have to go anyplace if they don't want to or the Russians don't shoot them. If you nuke the 500,000 enemy troops ok they are dead, but that land is useless now too and maybe the Chinese will nuke Moscow in response. If you don't have boots on the ground, you don't control the land. End of story. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2009.08.19 12:49:00 - [116] Edited by: Nian Banks on 19/08/2009 12:50:35 I find the idea of an eve mmo on consoles quite interesting, but also risky. CCP will need to initially limmit the sov influence quite a bit till they have enough data on how dust pans out and what the players want and do in it. That been said, I think it's good however I do have issue with the plan to allow dust players to create their own corps and alliances. In eve, they are just the uncounted masses where as pod pilots are the elites. Dust players should only be able to join npc corps or already established eve corps. In that way, while they are in npc corps they fight in faction warfare, and when in player owned corps, they fight for their Corp. This would solves a whole heap of potential problems. Another point is that they should allow corps and alliances to use the militia and other trade items as an npc planet defence, if a player Corp drops dust players onto a planet and there are 10,000 npc militia armed to the teeth there, the dust players shouldn't have an easy win and probably should die quite quickly. I would say that in eve you should have to planetary bombard an enemies planet to reduce the npc defence into a more manageable size before the dust players are droped to the surface. As someone said, larger ships in the eve backstory with current weapons can already bombard a planet.
Veshta Yoshida Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.19 12:52:00 - [117] Originally by: 666Devious I don't know how it wont draw people away from eve to play dust. Dust would be effecting the most important aspect of the game which is sov. It would be impossible for major alliances that have invested years of dedication and hard work to let it fall in the hands of people that has absolutely zero affiliation to their alliance. Think rationally for a second, why would CCP ever move sovereignty away from Eve? Hilmar said that planetary warfare would affect Sov. .. same as time does currently with the differing levels of control. Dust514 will not DETERMINE sovereignty but most likely ADD something for Sov. holders (like ability to anchor specific modules or gaining moon-mining rights). The word "affect" has such little weight that reading as much into it as some people are is quite literally insane. I really do not see how people can think that CCP would ever "kill" their baby. They'll let Dust die long before Eve if it comes to that. PS: Doesn't the PS3 at least support Linux, Mouse/Keyboard and what not?
666Devious Sinister Elite Raining Doom	Posted - 2009.08.19 13:11:00 - [118] Veshta Yoshida as i said we dont know all the details, just pointing out that they have to be very careful about it. Either way another game effecting any aspect of sov is negative due to the points I made in previous posts. Unless they effect something that is not very import with sov, like system scanners before, but then whats the point of Dust anyways.
Ming Yamato	Posted - 2009.08.19 13:12:00 - [119] CCP has done an acceptional job at balancing a EVE and I am sure that however they do it, it will be good. As for a first person shooter on console... you can have them, I am sure Halo fans are real good but mousers rule FPS. That aside, I think its a good idea. It may get those console gamers more into PC's again and not so affraid of patching and installing video cards.
Emnity Preston Caldari Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2009.08.19 13:32:00 - [120] Edited by: Emnity Preston on 19/08/2009 13:33:17 I believe it to be an excellent idea. A lot of people are getting themselves eaten up over semantics that havent even been released or discussed yet. It will be brilliant to have the games inter-related, and I'm sure this will be fully tested prior to release for multiple reasons. It would be corporate suicide to make the games completely inter-dependant, which is why I am 99.9% sure it will mainly be just another level of immersion rather than an all out dependance. The impression I get from the screen-play I have seen so far is that it seems to have an involvement in FW, and that the involvement with 0.0 and sov will probably be very dependant on the current eve universe situations. I doubt it will play a major part in any 0.0 Sov campaign, but maybe reducing or slightly increasing the time taken to reach the next level of Sov gain for example puts it on a decent playing field. It would be nice for them to be related in a lot of ways without truly interfering in either component. Edit:- Lets also remember, we have no idea what the intended upgrades are that are due to the sov system, it may fit like a glove. --------------------------------------------------- I know Violence is not the answer.. I got it wrong on purpose.

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