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Suicide Drones

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Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.19 05:06:00 - [1] I had another idea that I'd like to get some feedback on. Maybe someone already suggested it and I missed the thread. If you think its a dumb idea, I'd appreciate if you'd give feedback, rather than just flaming. Explain why you don't like it. Preface In "Homeworld" (honestly, I'm pretty sure most Eve players have played "Homeworld") small strike craft have the option to "kamikaze"; that is, they charge at their target at full speed, firing dead ahead, and crash into its hull, inflicting a sizable amount of damage, but destroying the strike craft in the process. We have the ability to overheat our weapons for increased attack profiles in exchange for self-damage; why not our drones? My Idea Give us the ability to sacrifice our drones for a single high-volley attack. Damage could be proportional to the ship's momentum, taking into account the drone's size classification. That is, DAMAGE= x(RELATIVE VELOCITYMASS). Now, the x value would have to change based on the size of the drone, because if left even across the board, light drones have a more aggressive profile than heavy drones, due to their velocities. This difference could be RP'd to signify the increased damage being dealt by the drone's stored munitions going critical on impact; bigger drones have bigger guns, thus have more comparative boom. Basically, I'd want this for a situation in which my drones are ineffective against an enemy. Be it a passive shield tank that shrugs off their DPS, a smartbomb that limits their lifespan within its radius, velocity too high for them to orbit effectively... or maybe its just a close fight and I want to win, regardless of cost. Maybe the enemy is trying to warp off, and in those few vulnerable moments I want to try and get one last shot in before he goes. One very expensive volley shot. When you give drones the order to conduct a suicide run, they would accelerate in a straight line at the target. As long as they're within firing range, they would also fire on it. Granted, that's probably only 1-2 shots, depending on target speed, but every little bit helps, right? Upon impact, they would deal damage with a profile similar to missiles. A low-mass target is more likely to be pushed, spin off, etc., rather than absorbing the entire impact like a high-mass target would, so mass would be treated much the same way as explosion radius. Velocity would also be a factor. The drones might impact the same way missiles do, always coming in from behind. You would obviously only feel the impact of the difference in your respective velocities. Outrunning the drones on their suicide run would also be feasible. Its not an instant-volley button. Its simply a last-resort weapon. Now, the amount of damage being dealt here is the real question. The mass of an Acolyte I is 3,000 kg, and the maximum unskilled velocity is 3,800 m/s. The raw multiplied value, then, is 11.4 million kgm/s of momentum. Let's say we want, at base stats, the suicide run to be... twice as effective as the equivalent long range missile? So a Sabretooth Light Missile deals 75 base damage, leaving us to want to deal 150 base damage with the Acolyte I. So, to re-use my formula above, for an Acolyte I DAMAGE= x(RELATIVE VELOCITYMASS) 150=x(38003000) 150=11400000x 0.00001316=x (I stopped at 4 significant digits) For an Infiltrator I (Derived from Thunderbolt Heavy Missile) 300=x(19005000) 300=9500000x 0.00003158=x For a Praetor I (Derived from a Paradise Cruise Missile) 600=x(95010000) 600=9500000x 0.00003158=x Now, these are obviously rough calculations; the x-value would have to be standardized across the entire drone class in order to give racial benefits to drone users. For example, Hobgoblin I drones would deal the least damage as their maximum possible momentum is only 8,400,000 kgm/s, compared to the 11,400,000 kgm/s of the Acolyte I, 11,200,000 kgm/s of the Hornet I, or whopping 16,800,000 kg*m/s of the Warrior I.
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.19 05:06:00 - [2] Reserved
Darkdood	Posted - 2009.08.19 06:24:00 - [3] "For the Swarm!!!" Infested Terran's ftw. I like this idea. Given that drone bays have a pretty limited size on 95% of the ships int eh game could be fun. You trade the dmg over time for one big blast then you are out of drones.
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.20 05:05:00 - [4] Well, I guess that makes the current rankings 100% for this idea and 0% against it. Any naysayers? Constructive criticism, maybe? ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
Aust Beladona Lost Connection Infused Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.20 06:08:00 - [5] I actually am all for anything that adds to the utility and uniqueness of the occassionally dull drone-master's existance... While balancing would be a concern.. I think it would be reasonable in my experience.. for the drones to deal something around the amount a pair of like-sized missiles. I would quite like giving SBers and speedy ship an parting gift... Question... Drone nav computer improves thrust for drones.. Do you think this would improve the damage? (A particular lol-fit I recall involved a set of 7 drone nav computers, and the improved t2 warriors ended up flying at 14km/s) Something that should be considered, elsewise, we could have some people running around solely "speed-ganking" drones...
King Rothgar Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.20 15:18:00 - [6] Hmm, I like the idea. Let the warrior I's serve a purpose. -----------------------------------------------------
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.20 16:35:00 - [7] Originally by: Aust Beladona Question... Drone nav computer improves thrust for drones.. Do you think this would improve the damage? (A particular lol-fit I recall involved a set of 7 drone nav computers, and the improved t2 warriors ended up flying at 14km/s) Something that should be considered, elsewise, we could have some people running around solely "speed-ganking" drones... This is something I want to work very hard to avoid. I don't want it to become another gank tactic. Unfortunately, slow, massive ships like, say, freighters and industrials, would be quite vulnerable to attacks of this type. The limitation of 5 drones active at a time per player, max, will work in favor of limiting the gankiness of this tactic (although I'm not sure how a Thanatos with 15 Beserker IIs might abuse it). My suggestion above concerning delaying relaunch after a drone completes a suicide attack would also prevent you from being able to get off more than one volley in a suicide gank situation. The durability of large warships, or the low mass and speed of smaller warships, would provide defense versus 1-shot-kills. Hopefully. Careful balancing would, of course, be necessary. I don't know, maybe make it so they can't be activated against targets over 50% total HP? That would no doubt increase the complication of programming, but would also provide some gank defense. Of course, in the situation of a passive shield tank that you need to volley past its optimal recharge, that 50% may be too much of a threshold. Its difficult to define the limits without more specifics to the idea and testing. ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.20 16:36:00 - [8] Originally by: King Rothgar Hmm, I like the idea. Let the warrior I's serve a purpose. I know, right? After I ran the math and realized that's how it would work out, I went "OMG ROLE REVERSAL! HAMMERHEADS ARE LAME?!?" ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
VC General	Posted - 2009.08.20 16:52:00 - [9] I like the idea for the coolness factor, but I don't see any reason for it in gameplay. Drones already do good damage, so the kamikaze would have to be significantly bigger to make it a worthwhile tactic. That being said, I only see it being used to gank people, or as a final attack before you pop. I don't think you'd have to worry about carriers abusing it. Suiciding all your drones to kill a few conventionals is probably not a great idea.
Mekela	Posted - 2009.08.20 16:58:00 - [10] Um don't we allready have this, I believe these special drones we have are called MISSILES.
Jack Coutu Gallente The Happy Spacemen	Posted - 2009.08.20 17:09:00 - [11] yes indeed, they are called missles, and unless you want to fly a drone ship with no drones after you suicide them all, i'd say the current missles are better than these drone missles. also you are a sick man, drones have feelings too. they feel the urge to kill, and to come home. Not to kamikaze.
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.20 17:40:00 - [12] Originally by: Mekela Um don't we allready have this, I believe these special drones we have are called MISSILES. Yes, and missiles are used as a primary weapon. You can overheat missile launchers to increase your damage while inflicting damage to those selfsame launchers. Why not have a similar mechanic for drones, which, despite being spec'd as primary weapons on several ships, are inevitably relegated to the secondary weapon roles? Thanks for your insightful, constructive commentary. ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
Volodar	Posted - 2009.08.20 17:50:00 - [13] Idea is pretty cool imho, but.... what about suicide ganks in empire at g8s? They might reborn again. A pack of tech1 cruisers with drones shoot them at a victim and all they need to do is to gather up the loot.
Saartje Sarel	Posted - 2009.08.20 18:15:00 - [14] I havent read the thread. I can't be bothered. Suicide drones = missiles.
XXXAKTIVE	Posted - 2009.08.20 18:22:00 - [15] I imagine 10 suicide vexors launch 5 suicide mid drones each at ORCA lol. Nice tool to fight macro miners XD It sounds fun, but too unfair
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:03:00 - [16] Originally by: Saartje Sarel I havent read the thread. I can't be bothered. Suicide drones = missiles. See above for my gratitude to similar constructive commentary. ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:05:00 - [17] Originally by: XXXAKTIVE I imagine 10 suicide vexors launch 5 suicide mid drones each at ORCA lol. Nice tool to fight macro miners XD It sounds fun, but too unfair 10 Vexors with medium drones could probably kill an Orca before it got away anyway :P But yes, as previously stated, avoiding turning this into a 1-shot gank weapon is my top priority. ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.22 03:47:00 - [18] Anyone else interested in providing some feedback? ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
Saul Elsyn INTERSTELLAR ENTERPRISE	Posted - 2009.08.22 03:53:00 - [19] Interesting idea, an easy way to keep this from being abused as a gank tactic would be to make it so the drones act much like a smartbomb when they hit. If the first drone hits it chains the following drones removing their damage, so the drone kamikazes would have to be done in a series of strikes instead of just one.
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.22 08:13:00 - [20] Originally by: Saul Elsyn Interesting idea, an easy way to keep this from being abused as a gank tactic would be to make it so the drones act much like a smartbomb when they hit. If the first drone hits it chains the following drones removing their damage, so the drone kamikazes would have to be done in a series of strikes instead of just one. Something like that, though, would probably be outlawed in empire just like bombs. And, bombs are tanked against their own damage type, so they don't chain each other off I think that the best way to prevent it becoming a gank tactic is delay prior to re-use of the ability, and moderation of the damage dealt with regards to the size and speed of the target. ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.24 16:37:00 - [21] Any other ideas? ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
ACE81	Posted - 2009.08.24 16:59:00 - [22] how about just overheating drones?
Manfred Rickenbocker	Posted - 2009.08.24 17:18:00 - [23] Your concern and dismissal of a Thanatos with 15 Berzerkers suiciding into ships was dismissed too quickly. Do you know how much drone hold a Thanny has? 100km3. Thats approx. 266 waves of 15 Berzerkers. By the way, if you suicide drones, make sure they do a LOT more damage than missiles of their class. The mass of a heavy drone is 6+ times the size of a torpedo. Sorry, but its going to necessitate doing a lot of damage. A max skilled flight of Ogre IIs (with ship bonus) does around 450 DPS. Id expect that flight of Ogres to do around 15k damage in one volley, which equates to 30 seconds of firing on my target. A Raven with 3 ballistic controls, T2 launchers, and Rage Inferno torps (T2 for T2!) does 6k in one volley, or around 1k DPS. That seems fair to me, even though with the huge amounts of buffer tank most ships are sporting it wont make a difference. Plus the fact that the only ship capable of sustaining this would be a Dominix or an Ishtar given their large bays seems fair. Whittle that drake down to its peak recharge point, suicide drones to push it into armor, then release another set to finish it off. A fair tactic given we cant reload our drone bays in space (seriously, wtf CCP?). ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times.
MJ Maverick IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2009.08.24 18:52:00 - [24] Overheat drones and give them structure damage while doing it. 1 New skill to reduce damage taken by drones overheating. Done - sorted - dusted. -------------------- CCP arse kissing drones are not welcome in my threads. CCP are not perfect.
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.24 19:32:00 - [25] Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker Your concern and dismissal of a Thanatos with 15 Berzerkers suiciding into ships was dismissed too quickly. Do you know how much drone hold a Thanny has? 100km3. Thats approx. 266 waves of 15 Berzerkers. By the way, if you suicide drones, make sure they do a LOT more damage than missiles of their class. The mass of a heavy drone is 6+ times the size of a torpedo. Sorry, but its going to necessitate doing a lot of damage. A max skilled flight of Ogre IIs (with ship bonus) does around 450 DPS. Id expect that flight of Ogres to do around 15k damage in one volley, which equates to 30 seconds of firing on my target. A Raven with 3 ballistic controls, T2 launchers, and Rage Inferno torps (T2 for T2!) does 6k in one volley, or around 1k DPS. That seems fair to me, even though with the huge amounts of buffer tank most ships are sporting it wont make a difference. Plus the fact that the only ship capable of sustaining this would be a Dominix or an Ishtar given their large bays seems fair. Whittle that drake down to its peak recharge point, suicide drones to push it into armor, then release another set to finish it off. A fair tactic given we cant reload our drone bays in space (seriously, wtf CCP?). I would be in favor of increasing the theoretical damage of the wave, however keep in mind that a torpedo is ordinance, designed specifically to hit things and explode, dealing damage. A drone is designed to shoot things, not blow up on things. So while mass is greater, destructive power does not necessarily follow. Carriers using recycled waves of Beserkers would be a problem, but it would be a ridiculously expensive tactic. Also, see above concerning relaunch delays to dissuade usage in suicide tactics. ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.24 19:34:00 - [26] Originally by: MJ Maverick Overheat drones and give them structure damage while doing it. 1 New skill to reduce damage taken by drones overheating. Done - sorted - dusted. A possible alternative I'd be willing to accept. I just think my concept would add something new, interesting, and unpredictable to gameplay. ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
OrcephDrake	Posted - 2009.08.24 19:43:00 - [27] Yeah the original idea is cool sounding but a tad over powering. But MJ Maverick's idea is pretty badass remake.
Joe Starbreaker Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2009.08.24 19:55:00 - [28] What I'd like is the ability for a fleet commander to suicide his newbies and interceptor pilots to take out large enemy ships. An Incursus in particular should do a lot of damage. IMHO every ship should be able to ram and suicide against others.
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.24 20:39:00 - [29] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker What I'd like is the ability for a fleet commander to suicide his newbies and interceptor pilots to take out large enemy ships. An Incursus in particular should do a lot of damage. IMHO every ship should be able to ram and suicide against others. \ Agreed, Incursus does have that badass spike on the front. Armor penetration ftw. I, too, would love a "RAMMING SPEED!!!11!1!!11" mechanic, but I understand why it won't happen in Eve. It would either have to be module-dependent, and would end up being overused (plated BSs MWDing into sieged dreads = ded dred) or it would be constant, at which point undock conga lines would become epic deathtrains in populated regions. Imagine a Velator undocking, stopping, and then getting bumped by a Dominix? splat. Anyway, thanks for your comment that is 90% unrelated to my topic :) ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
ark maphar	Posted - 2009.08.24 22:17:00 - [30] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker What I'd like is the ability for a fleet commander to suicide his newbies and interceptor pilots to take out large enemy ships. An Incursus in particular should do a lot of damage. IMHO every ship should be able to ram and suicide against others. yeah..... a titan ramming a mothership and a 12 dreadnought fleet=win

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