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Mr Reason
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Posted - 2009.08.20 01:07:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth All valid points in a way, but addressing them means you change the game, dramatically. It no longer becomes the game people play today. That's an enormous risk to take and would take a heck of a lot of planning to get even remotely right. Hopefully the new sov changes will be a step in the right direction.
I can see where you're coming from, even if the OP really was a whine and you focus way too much on WTZ. I've long held the view that practically instant travel makes for a really difficult PvP environment - there's no logistics train to attack, no supply lines, and instant reinforcements almost anywhere (obviously these are generalisations). Unfortunately, CCP seem to disagree, because they gave carriers and others the ability to jump from A to B pretty quickly as their primary/only method of travel.
In features and ideas, one of the big issues discussions about how to improve 0.0 always seemed to hit was that major powers can mount large offensives/defences rapidly and without (as much) need to deal with supplies, travel time, time to reinforce a battle, and so on.
Changing capital travel would have huge repercussions for the game. On the plus side, space would be bigger, moving goods from empire to 0.0 would have more windows of opportunity to attack, and mounting a multi-system offensive would actually require more strategy & preparation, because reinforcements aren't a cyno away. I don't really need to list the downsides, because a small legion of players used to the present sitation will for me
True but it's needed, there needs to be some drastic changes to the sov system and the ease of travel. 0.0 is stagnant, boring and lead by accountants and carebears disguised as fierce PVPers. It's impossible to go into 0.0 unless you're part of the major power blocks, the situation as is is crushing opportunists, new blood and people looking for a decent home and a bunch of fights simply because the current situation advantages big, cumbersome entities who blob the living crap out of everything.
People keep asking for more 0.0 space but that won't solve anything, IF they'd add more it would simply be absorbed by existing powers ending in a new status quo while it didn't help in any way. We don't need more space, we need better use of space, more people IN those systems so there's actually something happening.
Will those changes make a whole bunch of people throw their toys out of the pram and quit the game, possibly because they stayed because 'they had to' and this would be a great moment to get rid of the 2nd (or sometimes 1st) job that's called 0.0 ownership? Yeah, you bet that's going to happen but it will ALSO revitalise the whole 0.0 idea, it'll create chances for new players, people who cba with the whole blobfest mentality. 0.0 would be a challenge again.
It needs to be done, this and sov changes.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.08.20 01:49:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Cyprus Black Of all things to complain about, you've picked quite possibly the least important thing. Seriously, nobody gives a crap about jump freighters jumping through high/low/null sec space.
The ships are expensive as hell and are necessary to keep alliance resupplied. Ever try to go through 0.0 in a standard freighter? Yeah, epic lulz and fail.
Hi newbie. Yes i did use freighter to haul pos stuff. Everyone did. It was called "convoy". When was the last time you used *gasp* ESCORT for a freighter? Thats the point. Whole risk part of 0.0 was removed. So pretty much the only person who failed here is you.
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Rilwar
BlackStar Industrial
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Posted - 2009.08.20 02:10:00 -
[93]
Isn't this thread a little late? -------------------------------------------------
Mitnal was here. |
Dufas
Amarr freelancers inc Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.08.20 03:04:00 -
[94]
Award for Most Useless Thread ever...how about complaining that the roids take up too much space...if you cant kill something then you dont know what you are doing...try again k thanks --------------------------------
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AtheistOfDoom
Amarr The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.08.20 03:20:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Senseless Whine
LOL Pew Pew Lazorz!!! |
Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.08.20 03:48:00 -
[96]
Despite them having a impossible to catch humorlessly huge price tag of an ass..............
They have drastically reduced the price of guns and shooty stuff, so I'll bite my cheek and accept them......
Originally by: F'nog
Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down.
Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S |
Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
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Posted - 2009.08.20 04:46:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Rotnac as dangerous as 0.0
hehe. cruiser & rig BPOs LDS kb |
MirrorGod
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.08.20 06:20:00 -
[98]
Bellum, I agree. Now then, be more creative about killing the big 4.5B loot pinata. Also, nerf CCP.
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Philis McCrakin
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Posted - 2009.08.20 15:13:00 -
[99]
I scored a killing blow on a Rhea last year with a valkyrie II, true story!
No loot though, it all went poof!
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Lifelongnoob
Caldari Final Conflict UK
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Posted - 2009.08.20 15:43:00 -
[100]
lol yup i seen from inside our pos how quickly a jump freighter can die thank god it wasnt ours... but yes they die and die often... now if only ccp would fix that pos vs jumpfreighter pilot with high standing bug im sure alot less jump freighters would die
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Cpt Branko
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.08.20 16:05:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/08/2009 16:08:36 Easy logistics (and travel / reinforcements) suck, as does the pointlessness of more localized trade hubs thanks to fast and easy travel.
However, your average EvE player likes having it easy, nothing you can really do about that.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Professor Dumbledore
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.20 16:07:00 -
[102]
Jump freighters are designed for high sec -> 0.0 transporting they work fine and are plenty vulnerable. We kill them on jump beacons with dreads all the time.
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sooperkool
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Posted - 2009.08.20 16:10:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Rotnac You want to shrink the 0.0 powerblocks? Give us the ability to support more than 2-3 average alliance members per system. We need lots of space because you can't have more than a few people ratting per system before the revenue starts dropping like crazy. Once you can get a bunch of people in one system like the empire missions runners, and big alliances won't need lots of space.
As someone who now does some alliance-level logistics, the current setup involves bringing untold numbers of JF loads per week into 0.0. Nerfing JFs (or removing them) will destroy big alliances' ability to have lots of space, which crams lots of people into not much space, which means no one earns isk, and so we all quit.
you have everything you need in the regions of space you live in to build anything that you would ever need. why do you need to make runs to jita to buy stuff?
also, jfs are easy to kill if the pilot makes a mistake. if they dont, its just like every other ship in the game.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.08.20 16:22:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 20/08/2009 16:23:29
Originally by: Professor Dumbledore Jump freighters are designed for high sec -> 0.0 transporting they work fine and are plenty vulnerable. We kill them on jump beacons with dreads all the time.
From your KB: Jump Freighter1315
I guess "all the time" = 2 per month? Or less (cant remember when they were introduced). Thats not nearly enough.
EDIT: also the JFs that die are not mostly on bridges or jump in. The ones that die are usually clueless/idiot pilots who would have even died having dread in hisec. How about jumping in Rhea into 120 man hostile gang? Been there, killed it...
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.08.20 16:36:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: iP0D Oh man, down bello.
You've become such a little whiner it's getting silly. Yeah, we realise that you have a problem with making effort, but even when things seem to be too difficult you could at least put some thought in it.
A jumpfreighter is one of the easiest targets to gank, especially around bridges. Easily bumped, slow to move, bubbles are wonderful, easy to track around space and ridiculously expensive
Look, we all know that adapting to a changing 0.0 was overly hard on you, but there are plenty of other game niches available. Aside of this EVE really is a multiplayer game, teamwork is king.
Bubbles don't exist in lowsec. Neither do jump bridges. I simply mentioned jump bridges in the OP as yet another item that makes Alliance life super easy from a logistics standpoint.
Jumpfreighters are easily one of the most impossible capitals to kill in lowsec. Like I've said previously, unless the pilot makes a horrible horrible mistake, they're completely invulnerable.
It's *possible* to kill a JF at a deathstar POS, but only if you know when and where it's going to be cynoing in, have a specialized gank fleet assembled and are able to put everything together within the 30 seconds or so warning you have between the cyno going up and the JF arriving. That just doesn't seem that workable in my book.
And why is that wrong for a ship that cost 4 times more than a carrier?
They should not be easy to kill. Also ALL ships in this game are almost invulnerable unless the pilot makes a horrible mistake or put them into combat on purpose. You not gonna ever see any transport ship put into combat willingly. SO your case is nonsense. They are possible to kill if pilot makes a mistake, like all other ships. Ever tried to kill their cyno alts for starters?Don knwo if that mechanic stil exist, but used to be funny what happened whn cyno died while capital jumping.
The only thing bad about these ships is they reduce the ammount of normal haulers moving around. That would usually be flown by less smart players and therefore easier to kill.
I also hate warp to zero, but this is not a JF issue.
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Murkelost
Swedish Aerospace Inc
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Posted - 2009.08.20 16:41:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Cyprus Black Of all things to complain about, you've picked quite possibly the least important thing. Seriously, nobody gives a crap about jump freighters jumping through high/low/null sec space.
The ships are expensive as hell and are necessary to keep alliance resupplied. Ever try to go through 0.0 in a standard freighter? Yeah, epic lulz and fail.
I assume you weren't playing the game before all those fancy jump bridges, cyno jammers, jump freighters arrived? Back then people did escort gangs for freighters to move them securely down through 0.0 or low sec. Now a days we got Jump freighters, jump bridges etc etc *yawn*, was more fun when people actually had to do something in this game rather than flinch their eyes and "voala" they are done. Worthwhile thinking about
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Salhauler
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Posted - 2009.08.20 16:47:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Let's play a little game for a second. Pretend you're a lead game designer and someone comes to you with a new idea to be added to Eve:
<Junior Game Designer> Hi boss, I have this great idea for a new type of ship.
<You> Oh yeah, what is it?
<Junior Game Designer> Well, it's a capital ship, exactly like a freighter, but with slightly less capacity, but here's the fun part- it's nearly invulnerable! It will be able to use cynos to jump directly to heavily defended POSes, and with warp to zero it can escape to high sec space without worrying about being attacked!
<You> Hmm. Sounds pretty awesome, but what about getting back into lowsec/0.0? Won't it have to jump into vulnerable space and be caught away from the gate? I mean, it could always logoffski like the Russians do it, but that isn't 100% reliable now is it?
<Junior Game Designer> Well, I've thought that through as well- the jump freighters will be able to cyno DIRECTLY OUT OF HIGHSEC SPACE. How cool will that be?!
<You> Now you're talkin! Wow, great job! Once we add these into the game I'm certainly getting one. Using a regular freighter is so scary, what with actually being able to be locked and all. Oooohhhh, and with jump bridges and cyno jammers, it'll be super safe in 0.0! I can't wait!
Sarcasm aside, coupled with WTZ, POSes, jump bridges and cyno jammers jump freighters provide easy logistics with near 100% immunity to being destroyed. WTF? I don't see the risk/reward here.
Strange how I remember scouting ahead for a fellow corp member flying a Jump Freighter while we beat a hastry retreat back to highsec with corp assets following the collapse of the alliance we were in at the time (Nothing to do the with corp/alliance I'm in now). I guess there was no point ensuring that the systems being jumped to where free of hostiles.
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Jslice
Amarr Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.08.20 17:00:00 -
[108]
Bellum I suggest lvl 3's if lvl 4's aren't working out for you :)
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Galison
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Posted - 2009.08.20 17:16:00 -
[109]
While im not in an alliance or even a player corp I have had jfs bring stuff to me in null sec. But i do have one idea im sure not popular with null sec sov corps but its my understanding cyno jammers stop stuff from being jumped in but also jumpbridges can work in cynojamed systems why not make it so the cynojammer has to be turned off to use teh bridge would mix up gameplay a little give people a chance to get an cyno alt in and jump people in if an alliance has to offline the cyno to bring stuff in themselfs. I'm not talking a long timer to reonline it would need new coding so online and anchoring take time so peopl cant just have cynojammers in system to throw back up if their taken out. I mean more an on/off switch that once its anchored and online can give a small window turn it off cynos work turn it on and 1min later the system is safe again. You would have more people tring to sneak alts or covery people in with cynos if tehy know a system amybe due for a resupply would maybe improve the number of battles people have. |
LittleTerror
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Posted - 2009.08.20 17:16:00 -
[110]
Yeah lets go back to hardly anyone living in 0.0 due to logistics being outrageously hard, time consuming and boring... |
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Jslice
Amarr Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.08.20 17:21:00 -
[111]
Originally by: LittleTerror Yeah lets go back to hardly anyone living in 0.0 due to logistics being outrageously hard, time consuming and boring...
This |
Lag Generator
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.08.20 17:26:00 -
[112]
Is this thread an elaborate troll? We're talking about a ship that costs the price of three dreadnoughts, has battleship hitpoints, and no defenses whatsoever. Yeah, in theory it can move under cynojammer, but you try doing that in *your* JF in a siege situation. The reason that relatively few have been lost is because the ship costs a crapton of money, and hence people are most of the time very careful with it. And that most people fly/used to fly other, cheaper capitals. |
Sophia Truthspeaker
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2009.08.20 17:37:00 -
[113]
I think the problem is largely due to the difference of controlling the stargate, controlling the system and controlling the moons.
Going totally way back in time is, in my opinion the wrong way to do it.
But changing sov in a way that active pilots have to secure the jump points would make more sense.
And I hate to agree with a goon, but stuffing more people into a smaller area won't really work. People go into 0.0 to pvp and get rich. It is supposed to be where the richest income is, and thanks to the moons, it probably is. But the grunt rarely sees anything of that riches and is stuck with rattin and plexing, which only supports so many people until other ways to gain income are far more effectiv.
Perhaps changing jump bridges and cyno generators so the pos shield shrinks and no weapons can be installed? That would at least be a temporary solution until the sov system gets a complete overhaul.
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ArmyOfMe
The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.08.20 17:41:00 -
[114]
Originally by: LittleTerror Yeah lets go back to hardly anyone living in 0.0 due to logistics being outrageously hard, time consuming and boring...
you'r talking about back when alliances had to do some work to keep their space and logistics going? if so then yes please.
just look at alliances like morsus mihi that can jump their jf's directly from jita to their station systems, not really much risk for them other then those times when their pilots screw up(tends to happen a lot for one of their corps for some reason) |
Sibane
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Posted - 2009.08.20 17:41:00 -
[115]
they are fine as they are, plenty die on a regular basis you clearly have no idea of what you are talking about, as if you would ever catch one on a low-sec gate anyway ...
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Rotnac
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.20 17:52:00 -
[116]
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Originally by: LittleTerror Yeah lets go back to hardly anyone living in 0.0 due to logistics being outrageously hard, time consuming and boring...
you'r talking about back when alliances had to do some work to keep their space and logistics going? if so then yes please.
**** it, let's just get rid of 0.0 while we're at it. Just a buncha lazy ***gots, amirite?
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Spurty
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.08.20 18:01:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Spurty on 20/08/2009 18:01:24 I have a terrible idea as well, CCP should seed NPC stations with T1 stuff every month. 555,555 of every T1 item should appear in every NPC station, even 0.0 ones.
I don't fly my freighter anymore, just no need these days.
I don't miss convey / escort duty.
Having said that, it was sorta fun to train people in the art of aligning and not warping until freighters get into their warp (and take 2 weeks to arrive).
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails i for one, like 8's that look like 9's lol
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.20 18:09:00 -
[118]
I am afraid bellum just wants easy kills of ships which cant defend themselves, but i do agree with his point.
Especially jump freighters, but also some other mechanics like normal freighter goign through jump bridges, make 0.0 logistics very easy. Now I see the problem with making it just harder, it is boring. However imo in the current situation there isnt nearly enough incentive to make products on location, usually it is just far easier and far cheaper to jump in everything directtly bought in jita, so even if the local producer wants to make something he has to stay arround jita prices deep in 0.0 to sell something.
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ArmyOfMe
The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.08.20 18:18:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Rotnac
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Originally by: LittleTerror Yeah lets go back to hardly anyone living in 0.0 due to logistics being outrageously hard, time consuming and boring...
you'r talking about back when alliances had to do some work to keep their space and logistics going? if so then yes please.
**** it, let's just get rid of 0.0 while we're at it. Just a buncha lazy ***gots, amirite?
more like whiny ***gots tbh, but i didnt expect any better from goons anyhow tbh
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Butter Dog
Gallente The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.08.20 18:19:00 -
[120]
sure - if people use jump frieghters intelligently, they are very hard to kill
if people use *any* ship intelligently, and don't want to be killed, they are very hard to kill (scouting, cloak, safespots, etc)
but heres the thing
people are stupid and lazy - jump freighters can use gates too, and unbelievably, they do
you get kills when people get lazy and/or stupid, just like any other kill in eve
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AKA 'Bitter Dog'
Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05 |
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