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Tiffy Mezzier
Quantum Cats Syndicate
4
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Posted - 2012.05.30 19:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'd like to start this as a new topic so that it doesn't wind up buried in another thread.
I think its fair to say that currently, there are insufficient incentives encouraging players to defend FW complexes. To be clear, it is known that this was done intentionally to abate players from farming the Factional LP store. This has resulted in a clear imbalance for all who are familiar with the gameplay, however I have concluded on a rather simple solution _____________________________________________________________________________________
The Solution:
Completing a FW complex defensively should be rewarded by having that complex's LP value placed BACK into the local system hub (bunker). This LP amount would be equivalent to the amount which would have been removed had the complex been completed offensively. However, these loyalty points would only refund back to the system hub up to the amount which was originally placed there by the controlling faction.
The result, is that defending a complex on it's own will have a worthwhile result which is in-keeping with the game's established mechanics. This would also serve to bring defensive gameplay more into line with offensive gameplay. _______________________________________________________________________________________
I encourage the FW community to please post any comments or criticism, I also encourage praise and pledges of servitude. |
Borg Zorg
Perkone Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.05.30 19:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
THIS THIS 1000000 TIMES THIS |
Sekh Ondaari
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
0
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Posted - 2012.05.30 19:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
So just spawn LP from nowhere to buffer up the system at no cost? IE either waste a good chunk of isk on your system or let trial alts spin a button for 10 minutes?
No thanks. |
Frozen Fallout
Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords
9
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Posted - 2012.05.30 19:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
I agree and was thinking the same thing. With the way that it currently is it will be very hard for either side of this war to get higher then level 2 for more then couple hours which means most people will be paying a x2 price on all LP goods.
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Tiffy Mezzier
Quantum Cats Syndicate
4
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Posted - 2012.05.30 19:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sekh Ondaari wrote:So just spawn LP from nowhere to buffer up the system at no cost? IE either waste a good chunk of isk on your system or let trial alts spin a button for 10 minutes?
No thanks.
Not sure you read what I wrote there Sekh, It doesn't buffer the system.
LP would only be regained back up to the point where it was before it was removed by offensive plexing.
I.e If a system is level IV, and plexers downgrade the system to level III, defensive plexing would only bring the system back up to level IV and no further. |
Sekh Ondaari
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
0
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Posted - 2012.05.30 19:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tiffy Mezzier wrote:Sekh Ondaari wrote:So just spawn LP from nowhere to buffer up the system at no cost? IE either waste a good chunk of isk on your system or let trial alts spin a button for 10 minutes?
No thanks. Not sure you read what I wrote there Sekh, It doesn't buffer the system. LP would only be regained back up to the point where it was before it was removed by offensive plexing. I.e If a system is level IV, and plexers downgrade the system to level III, defensive plexing would only bring the system back up to level IV and no further.
And where would the LP come from? if you had a 100k lp system, got some of said LP stolen, you'd still have to cough up more LP to get the system back to where it was. This is virtually free effortless LP, regardless of where it's capped at. |
Tiffy Mezzier
Quantum Cats Syndicate
4
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Posted - 2012.05.30 20:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
Quote:And where would the LP come from? if you had a 100k lp system, got some of said LP stolen, you'd still have to cough up more LP to get the system back to where it was. This is virtually free effortless LP, regardless of where it's capped at.
I see what you're getting at, however what I'm suggesting is a little different than that,
The LP would be a reward from your faction for defending, similar toas you earn for attacking, except the LP wouldn't go to individual characters. Instead, the LP earned from defending would be deposited directly into the system hub where the plex was defended.
As a side note, The cap I suggested for how much LP gets placed back into the hub is intended to help retain the original mechanic of having to place LP into the hub in the first place. |
Sekh Ondaari
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
0
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Posted - 2012.05.30 20:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tiffy Mezzier wrote:Sekh Ondaari wrote:And where would the LP come from? if you had a 100k lp system, got some of said LP stolen, you'd still have to cough up more LP to get the system back to where it was. This is virtually free effortless LP, regardless of where it's capped at. I see what you're getting at, however what I'm suggesting is a little different than that, The LP would be a reward from your faction for defending, similar to what you would earn for attacking, except the LP wouldn't go to individual characters. Instead, the LP earned from defending would be deposited directly into the system hub where the plex was defended. As a side note, The cap I suggested for how much LP gets placed back into the hub is intended to help retain the original mechanic of having to place LP into the hub in the first place.
Better suggestion then imho would be to not pay out any LP until the system is captured, much like how incursions worked. That way you could still gain(retain) LP from defensive plexing without spawning them from nowhere.
They would still bre removed from the system, and repaid to the system instantly of course, just never end up in players hands until system changes ownership. |
Tiffy Mezzier
Quantum Cats Syndicate
4
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Posted - 2012.05.30 20:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sekh Ondaari wrote:Better suggestion then imho would be to not pay out any LP until the system is captured, much like how incursions worked. That way you could still gain(retain) LP from defensive plexing without spawning them from nowhere.
They would still bre removed from the system, and repaid to the system instantly of course, just never end up in players hands until system changes ownership.
You mean when the system is counted as stable, as opposed to contested?
I think that could make sense. So what you're saying is that the LP earned for the system hub from defending would not be paid back into the hub until it's decontested?
On another note, the LP earned from offensive plexing also counts as being "spawned from nowhere." If you run offensive complexes in a system with 0 LP in the system hub, you still earn LP. |
Borg Zorg
Perkone Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.05.30 20:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sekh Ondaari wrote:So just spawn LP from nowhere to buffer up the system at no cost? IE either waste a good chunk of isk on your system or let trial alts spin a button for 10 minutes?
No thanks.
All Lp is spawn from nothing. The OP is best idea to solve all new Fw system. A motivation to actuli do defensive plexing and make viable to have more than tier 1 zone control.
The way things are now,many ppl did lose they isk income from Lp store,and i see ships being destroyed all over. How in the world ppl gona replace their ships if Lp store is 4 times more expensive than before????'
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The Killbot
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
5
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Posted - 2012.05.30 20:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
So if I'm understanding your proposal correctly, the militia can upgrade a system to level V once- then as long as they hold the system - any alt in a condor can restore that system to level V again. That is essentially awarding LP for defensive plexing (albeit with strings attached), and I have to say that the idea of earning LP (or restoring earned and invested LP) which has an enormous impact on warzone control and LP store metrics, by spinning a button with a condor surrounded by friendly rats is a bit too much to ask for. Besides, killing enemy militia earns LP now - guess where you can find them.
As for incentives and fixes, let's slow down - It's only been a week. The cal/gal militias each got to tier II then slid back. My guess is that the initial investment in upgrading systems hasn't been replaced because not enough players defended those upgrades. Our response should be "Challenge Accepted" , not "Please make this easier" The incentive for defending upgraded systems involves enlightened self-interest and requires coordination. We share in the rewards of warzone control, so we should share in the costs of maintaining it. Welcome to the new FW. It will take awhile for enough people to get on board with that but let's not ask for help in week 1
A better short term solution: If coordinated across a militia, held systems could be ninja upgraded in the quiet hours, and everyone could cash in their LP at favorable rates for awhile. It wouldn't cost anyone that much if the cost is shared, just a bit of planning. When they get plexed down, we go earn LP in offensive systems for a bit, restore the coffers, rinse and repeat.
Another: Roll an alt and put it and its condor on a defensive button while you play your main. Sorry, but mechanics are mechanics.
The long term solution, however, involves realizing that sov has come to FW and developing the means to control and defend systems effectively - not just generally ignoring them until they get heavily contested and grinding them down then. This probably means living in low sec, not just dipping in to grab some LP. This probably means erecting POS's and fighting from them. This probably means a division of labor inside the militia - an assignment of systems to protect. There will be free-riders, there always are - boo hoo. But let's not ask CCP to dumb down our new gameplay just because we didn't stroll into tier 5 and make 100 billion isk in week 1. |
Zurtan Bayle
The Wings of Maak Defiant Legacy
0
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Posted - 2012.05.30 22:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Good idea, however one idea suggested during the FW round table at the fanfest should resolve all that and better : LP corporation tax.
Same as the isk, a tax on LP who can be set by the corp or ally, then the corp/ally can spend LP for defending system. Because for now, no gain for defending and personnal LP to donate lead to a lack of way to defend system, especially with the quickness you can downgrade them... |
Yogsoloth
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
58
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Posted - 2012.06.01 21:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Better Idea eliminate LP for plexing completely.
Significantly boost LP for actually flipping the system.
Boost LP for kills.
You want to encourage pvp & significant and meaningful conflicts, not alts spinning buttons in backwater systems for hoardes of LP.
Why reward people for spinning buttons in quiet or empty systems with no intention of actually capturing the system.
How does it make sense to have alts in t1 frigs spin a few empty systems at god awful times and effect an entire empire's market prices, doubling, tripling or even quadrupling prices.
Surely this is not the type of game that was intended or should be encouraged.
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Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
68
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Posted - 2012.06.01 22:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Your idea has more effects than you think, and it still won't make anyone care about defensive plexing.
Let's take the case of the Amarr: we've about half the systems we'd need to get a better LP store multiplier even if we upgraded all of them. So each system we take, or lose, has no immediate meaning for anyone who wouldn't defensively plex anyway. Your idea would allow our systems to hover at higher upgrade levels, but it wouldn't make a single extra pilot 'de'plex a system.
So have this idea: abolish the large 'tiers' of warzone control, and instead more directly tie warzone control to the LP offers/rewards. So if you buy a ship when a particular system of yours is at level V, then you'll buy it for marginally cheaper than if that system had dropped to level IV. Higher warzone control is then always immediately better than lower warzone control, whereas at the moment warzone control can shift a great deal and yet have no effect. |
Tiffy Mezzier
Quantum Cats Syndicate
6
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Posted - 2012.06.02 03:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Your idea has more effects than you think, and it still won't make anyone care about defensive plexing.
Let's take the case of the Amarr: we've about half the systems we'd need to get a better LP store multiplier even if we upgraded all of them. So each system we take, or lose, has no immediate meaning for anyone who wouldn't defensively plex anyway. Your idea would allow our systems to hover at higher upgrade levels, but it wouldn't make a single extra pilot 'de'plex a system.
So have this idea: abolish the large 'tiers' of warzone control, and instead more directly tie warzone control to the LP offers/rewards. So if you buy a ship when a particular system of yours is at level V, then you'll buy it for marginally cheaper than if that system had dropped to level IV. Higher warzone control is then always immediately better than lower warzone control, whereas at the moment warzone control can shift a great deal and yet have no effect.
This is a FANTASTIC suggestion. Yogsoloth, Zurtan and Killbot also made very valid points.
There have been a lot of good ideas mentioned here so far, and I appreciate everyone's correspondence. I think we all agree that the new system requires some modification, and think that we should take this opportunity to hash out what exactly needs to happen.
I'll take some time to write up a proper breakdown of what people have pointed to as being the problem, and try to work together a new proposal based off of some of the ideas that have been suggested here. |
Je720
Mentally Unstable Enterprises Drunk 'n' Disorderly
0
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Posted - 2012.06.03 00:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Supported.
At the very least give half LP for defending plexes. |
Ayame Yoshida
Republic 1st Fleet
8
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Posted - 2012.06.03 11:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Whatever the solution something does need to be done to encourage defensive plexing. I don't think you could just sit there with an alt because any system that is being contested likely has elements for each side in it therefore your alt would just get popped while you are not paying attention. I am a fan of a system where LP would go straight into the hub as there are quite a few pilots out there who just use LP for personal reward.
Doing LP payouts only when the system is not contested is a ver bad idea. FW pilots rely on LP to generate the money or ships they need to fight. It is much easier to "contest" a system than actively attempt to take it, so all you would have to do to cripple both sides is just do enough to keep their systems from going stable. It would cripple both sides.
My concern is, that by making the LP go straight to system maintenance that it's not going to encourage defensive plexing at all, as too many people will be too fixated on making LP for themselves, though it will make it easier for those who do actively participate in upgrading systems.
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
744
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Posted - 2012.06.03 14:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
another thought: why not removing the defensive plexing mechanics entirely?
if a wt leaves the flag, the timer AUTOMATICALLY starts running backwards (twice slower?... balancing).
this would make plexing more fun... hunt down WTs, if there are no lurking around in friendly systems, do offensive plexing. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Ayame Yoshida
Republic 1st Fleet
13
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Posted - 2012.06.04 11:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:another thought: why not removing the defensive plexing mechanics entirely?
if a wt leaves the flag, the timer AUTOMATICALLY starts running backwards (twice slower?... balancing).
this would make plexing more fun... hunt down WTs, if there are no lurking around in friendly systems, do offensive plexing.
I'm not sure what to think of this suggestion. Essentially this would make defence a matter of hunting down WT while the do offensive plexes. Which kind of makes sense. It would make it much harder for attackers since they would have to be more organised and ready to repel incursions into their plex. The further a faction extends throughout the systems it would make it harder to interfere in offensive plexes. As a game balance idea this is actually quite good. Perhaps they could have a mod where when they are in an offensive plex in your system on top of what you gain for killing a war target that system gains an increase to structure LP based off a % of what the WT is worth. As a balance mechanic I can get behind this.
As a Minmatar not so much, our lines are already over extended~
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
746
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Posted - 2012.06.10 19:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ayame Yoshida wrote:Bienator II wrote:another thought: why not removing the defensive plexing mechanics entirely?
if a wt leaves the flag, the timer AUTOMATICALLY starts running backwards (twice slower?... balancing).
this would make plexing more fun... hunt down WTs, if there are no lurking around in friendly systems, do offensive plexing. I'm not sure what to think of this suggestion. Essentially this would make defence a matter of hunting down WT while the do offensive plexes. Which kind of makes sense. It would make it much harder for attackers since they would have to be more organised and ready to repel incursions into their plex. The further a faction extends throughout the systems it would make it harder to interfere in offensive plexes. As a game balance idea this is actually quite good. Perhaps they could have a mod where when they are in an offensive plex in your system on top of what you gain for killing a war target that system gains an increase to structure LP based off a % of what the WT is worth. As a balance mechanic I can get behind this. As a Minmatar not so much, our lines are already over extended~
right that was the idea. if s.o. wants to assault a system there should be a continuous push to do that. Swaping FW into all offensive would be quite interesting. To defend a system you will have to hunt wts... thats fun. To attack a system you will have to protect youself in enemy territory... thats fun too. Having the same time effort in defending a system without any gain at all for the individual is however very boring (speaking of rewardless decontesting). a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
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Sheynan
Lighting the blight
6
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Posted - 2012.06.10 22:28:00 -
[21] - Quote
I really like the idea of getting rid of defensive plexing.
I mean it is so boring that a lot of ppl just have alts that orbit buttons for them. And it's not a good mechanic if it encourages half-afk'ing around in space in a reaper for hours without really anything happening or anyone gaining fun of it. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
746
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Posted - 2012.06.11 19:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
actually the longer i think about it the more i like it myself. At first i wasn't sure about that.
i would implement the mechanics like that (at a high level):
a plex timer automatically runs backwards (a bit slower) if all WTs left the flag until the plex is "decontested" to speed it up you can sit on that flag like before (faster timer).. but this is no longer mandatory this means that an unsuccessful plex run helps the defending faction to hold the system. (everything you do has a consequence blabla)
systems would now have the tendency to stick to the owner and people could do what they actually want to do. Hunting WTs in friendly systems (the new defensive plexing) or offensive plexing in hostile systems..
-> more explosions, less flag orbitting a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Ravyn Antollare
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.06.12 00:05:00 -
[23] - Quote
LP for defensive plexing is needed. For two reasons:
First, time spent Plexing is time I could have spent earning profit. Missions, mining, playing markets. Etc. Instead I plex and earn, well, nothing. And I do mean nothing.
Furthermore, last time I tried defensive plexing in a T1 Frigate it was destroyed by the prompt arrival of a T2 Amarr Frigate. So don't tell me the NPC Rats offer any real support. That boat stormed right through the rats, who could not even hope to close fast enough to offer support, and I was dead before I brought systems online.
Defensive plexing is not without risk. But it is utterly, completely without reward. Doubly so, since it is also time I could have spent earning rewards elsewhere.
Put frankly: Until Defensive plexing offers some reward, not only would I avoid it, I would also highly recommend others avoid it all cost. Defensive plexing is all risk, no reward and in the world of EVE that makes it a lose/lose deal. Stay away from it.
Oh yeah, not to mention: To plex, you have to join the war. Which means no access to half the space in New Eden just for being a militia member. So yeah...a little reward, please. |
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