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ReePeR McAllem
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2009.08.21 22:24:00 -
[1]
So when I fly solo I like to take out the vaga, its a nice solo ship. Quite safe and versatile in its ways. I have come up with the next generation for those veteran vaga pilots outthere.
T3 Ships are expensive yes, and from what I have seen of them they are being misused in lowsec for pvp. So I have chosen to use the Loki, and with a selected sub-system config attain an agilty unmatched by any vaga, dps that surpasses any vaga, the utility of the huginn with far superior range. To me it will be the most impressive low sec solo ship seen for a while.
The Fit:
Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
Large Shield Extender II Gistum B-Type 10MN MicroWarpdrive True Sansha Stasis Webifier True Sansha Stasis Webifier Domination Warp Disruptor
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M True Sansha Medium Energy Neutralizer
Core Defence Field Extender II Core Defence Field Extender II Projectile Ambit Extension II
Loki Defensive - Adaptive Shielding Loki Electronics - Immobility Drivers Loki Engineering - Supplemental Coolant Injector Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array Loki Propulsion - Chassis Optimization
Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x5
Full LG-Nomad Set Hardwires for AC's and speed
And before you say a T3 ship without a tank are you crazy, stop and think about what this is for, how well the vaga does and what this is capable of.
530dps with barrage, 27k Falloff and 37k web unheated it is a beast.
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Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2009.08.21 22:35:00 -
[2]
I always tohugh the Web bonus was nice.
Why so much faction stuffs tho? With that isk you can buy a second Loki
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Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2009.08.21 22:40:00 -
[3]
I recommend a super rapier (a bit outdated the skills on that, web is 33km atm with sub at 4; also I have lg slaves in that pic) instead.
You web the target = you don't need speed mods to control range so why not fit for buffer?
And since you're fighting at that range, AC's are way too deep into falloff to do decent damage. If we take your 500 something DPS at opt+1xfalloff, that's only 250 ish before we even consider the hit quality reduction (so about 200 or so in actuality). With heavy missiles and arties you can do 350 instead. And you're using 3 damage mods to achieve an inferior damage while you could dedicate to buffering.
On top of this you have versatility with range: heavy missiles reach 70+ km and the arties and reach similarly far which means you can even pop stupid frigs with it.
And you have damage type freedom with missiles so what's not to like?
But the best thing about this fit if you ask me is... EM resistance That's 370K EHP against Scorch and when fighting at 30 ish kilometers, lasers are (besides heavy missiles) the only weapons that can reach without significant reduction in damage. And the sig is 130 which is pretty effective at reducing damage against any larger missiles that would even reach.
These are the reasons I'm using it like this. Feel free to criticize. ----------------------
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ReePeR McAllem
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2009.08.21 22:48:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Jin Entres I recommend a super rapier (a bit outdated the skills on that, web is 33km atm with sub at 4; also I have lg slaves in that pic) instead.
You web the target = you don't need speed mods to control range so why not fit for buffer?
And since you're fighting at that range, AC's are way too deep into falloff to do decent damage. If we take your 500 something DPS at opt+1xfalloff, that's only 250 ish before we even consider the hit quality reduction (so about 200 or so in actuality). With heavy missiles and arties you can do 350 instead. And you're using 3 damage mods to achieve an inferior damage while you could dedicate to buffering.
On top of this you have versatility with range: heavy missiles reach 70+ km and the arties and reach similarly far which means you can even pop stupid frigs with it.
And you have damage type freedom with missiles so what's not to like?
But the best thing about this fit if you ask me is... EM resistance That's 370K EHP against Scorch and when fighting at 30 ish kilometers, lasers are (besides heavy missiles) the only weapons that can reach without significant reduction in damage. And the sig is 130 which is pretty effective at reducing damage against any larger missiles that would even reach.
These are the reasons I'm using it like this. Feel free to criticize.
All revelent missiles I looked at also, the I know the webs arent needed usually, but the fact you have them makes your job much safer and reduces their angular. I wouldnt sit so far into the edge of falloff, probably orbit at 20km maybe less when the situation stabilizes and target is slowed and ofc depending on what you fight. The webs are essential if you ask me.
Im sure your fit goes well though for what you do.
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Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2009.08.21 23:14:00 -
[5]
But the thing with a vaga approach is that A. you are very vulnerable to heavy neuts while you could be 25+ km and B. if you sit sub 20km, then you are not using range to mitigate damage and will only gain advantage through tracking against larger guns. Heavy assault missiles, medium pulses and other autocannons have no problem reaching the range at which you operate. This basically means that a vaga has a very limited selection of what it can engage. And where a vaga needs speed mods to be able to control its range, a Loki doesn't: it has webs. Ask yourself this: does your setup do anything a vaga or a huginn won't? I'm not sure it does.
When you fight within a range where the most common short range weapons can reach, you are partaking in the damage race: whoever has more damage and tank to win it will win it. In this respect you are not gaining much from a Loki. You will still most likely have to avoid the same engages you would avoid flying a vaga or a huginn. Sure, you have more safety margin than a vaga, but that's fairly little to pay 600 some mil for when you could take more advantage of the investment by utilising the ship's strengths. And the distinct strengths of all T3 cruisers are first and foremost their tanking potential and secondly their special recon derivative bonuses. ----------------------
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ReePeR McAllem
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2009.08.21 23:21:00 -
[6]
It does do something the vaga + huginn cant do, they cant do both from the same ship. And I know of the strengths and weaknesses. But this ship is not to engage every target avaliable, still have to be wise with targets, I think even if a t3 ship has a great tank, it will get into situations whereby death might come faster from not picking the targets well, which is infact the point to my fit and theory. Neuts can be an issue yes but then you can always break out of range and keep a point and make a decision, or as it sometimes should be ask for help.
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Stuart Price
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.08.21 23:36:00 -
[7]
Impressive.
As you say, won't be able to take on ANY ship (Curse for a start), but will certainly kill enough to be a worthwhile shiny toy.
I look forward to seeing it in space, particularly since I know how good you are in a Vaga (very). Feel free to ignore my Curse by the way :p Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2009.08.21 23:37:00 -
[8]
Of course. But let me put it this way: in what situation would your fit be preferable to mine?
The only one that comes to my mind is one in which you can deal your full DPS up close in which case you would be very vulnerable yourself aswell without any significant buffer to speak of. Damage is only as good as your ability to deal it and if you die fast, your high DPS won't get delivered. So a situation would have to be such that incoming damage would be insignificant (against a torp raven for instance) but you would need the extra damage to break a tank. Against a buffer tank, if you are not taking damage, it doesn't really matter if you deal 350 or 500 DPS. You would only need it to overcome an active tank and the difference of 150 DPS would have to be enough to make a difference which in many cases it is not (an active tanked torp raven will tank 500 easily). So the usefulness of this edge of higher damage up close is very marginal.
Much more likely is, in my view, that your poor survivability will cost you kills because you either can't engage in the first place or because you have to warp out because you take too much damage and that this amount of lost opportunities is many times greater than the rare cases in which you could use a little extra damage to break an active tank against which your inexistent tank would hold.
(Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you what you should fly. ) ----------------------
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.08.21 23:43:00 -
[9]
That looks pretty sexy man. Way out of my price range though. :)
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ReePeR McAllem
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2009.08.22 00:35:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Jin Entres Of course. But let me put it this way: in what situation would your fit be preferable to mine?
Lets just clear things up, I have proposed a vaga crossed with a huginn which is far better than both in agility speed and dps.
You propose a super rapier that is bulky not very agile with a 1600mm plate that works like a regular rapier but with more HP's and very slightly improved dps.
I know straight up which I would prefer.
And yes you say missiles joy joy, I dont like missiles and those Arties will do sweet not much to anything small that can move. You wont always have just 1 or 2 targets.
And If I do get lets say a single drake alone, I have a chance to actually break its tank, where you do not, so lets not talk about what i cant take down compaired to you.
Both different ships. Doing different things.
Nuff said
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xxxak
Caldari No Limit Productions Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.08.22 00:52:00 -
[11]
A slow armor plate t3 is a lolphailmail waiting to happen. Nuffield said
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ReePeR McAllem
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2009.08.22 01:05:00 -
[12]
Originally by: xxxak A slow armor plate t3 is a lolphailmail waiting to happen. Nuffield said
I didnt say he was slow, just not agile. Same difference to me though
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Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2009.08.22 01:33:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Jin Entres on 22/08/2009 01:34:47
Originally by: ReePeR McAllem
Originally by: Jin Entres Of course. But let me put it this way: in what situation would your fit be preferable to mine?
Lets just clear things up, I have proposed a vaga crossed with a huginn which is far better than both in agility speed and dps.
You are evading the point. It doesn't matter whether it is better than a vaga or a huginn: both configurations are.
Originally by: ReePeR McAllem
You propose a super rapier that is bulky not very agile with a 1600mm plate that works like a regular rapier but with more HP's and very slightly improved dps.
The agility, I admit, is significantly better in your fit. The damage argument is a bit weak, though (I'll come to that in a bit).
Originally by: ReePeR McAllem
And yes you say missiles joy joy, I dont like missiles and those Arties will do sweet not much to anything small that can move. You wont always have just 1 or 2 targets.
Are you forgetting that we have 30+ km dual webbing? And even if the arties miss a lot of the time, so will the autocannons due to falloff. You kind of make my point for me by postulating several targets: the more there are, the harder it is to control range against them. You are forced to stay close to the one you want to deal damage to.
And let's take a look at this damage issue. First to put the two setups on even terms the level V skilled DPS figures are 495 for your fit and 387 for mine, including drones. Now let's adjust your damage to your fighting range. At 15 km you will be at roughly optimal + 50% falloff. Since damage at optimal + falloff is about 40%, damage at optimal + 50% falloff should be roughly 70%. And 70% of your turret based DPS (396) + drones amounts to 376 DPS. So in actuality, at your operating distance you are doing less DPS than the long range fit is doing from outside neuting range (and from outside the range of many short range weapons aswell).
On top of this, you are dealing a fixed selection of damage types so after resistances are considered, a wise missile user will have even more advantage in damage.
Originally by: ReePeR McAllem
And If I do get lets say a single drake alone, I have a chance to actually break its tank, where you do not, so lets not talk about what i cant take down compaired to you.
Your setup has 46K EHP. Mine has 140K (this is without lg slaves now, on equal terms). That is 3 times as much. A standard T2 HAM Drake will rip you to shreds. Even a noob drake with full tank and laughable damage using heavies instead of heavy assaults and no damage mods at all will do 300 DPS which only takes 2+ minutes to go through your hitpoints. Your 555 DPS with RF EMP will take much longer than that to get through any such Drake. Even noob drakes will have 90K EHP easy (without rigs) and most of them dont waste mids with tackling either. That is before we consider how much the recharge sucks off your damage. If it's a rigged (now rigs are dirt cheap, too) one, chances are your 555 will not even break the recharge.
So tell me again, what can your fit take that mine can't?
Originally by: ReePeR McAllem
Both different ships. Doing different things.
I'm sorry but they're not. They are very similar. Yours has the advantage of agility and speed (2k m/s vs 1.5k m/s) while mine has the advantage of hitpoints and range. Your damage is only superior under 15 km which is most of the time the worst range to be at for the purpose the ship is used for and at which range your drawback of lacking hitpoints becomes a vulnerability most easy to exploit.
The point that you can make and that I will respect is that the extra agility and speed makes a difference for the type of roaming / whatever you do. I don't think it is justified by the shortcomings in other areas but I can accept that it is at least an acceptable reason for using your setup. ----------------------
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.08.22 01:48:00 -
[14]
I would trade a web for a 6th gun and use snakes instead of nomads. And rig with all ambits. Like the other guy said, not much point in fighting at range if you do crappy damage their.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
techzer0
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.08.22 02:12:00 -
[15]
If it helps the argument... I wouldn't touch the plated "Superapier", I don't even plate my Rapiers. Having a cross between a Vaga and Huginn would be amazing, since I love flying both of 'em... and plates make me sad
The loki fit I was playing with looks a lot like ReepeR's, lol. I just wish there was a neut with range like the Corpum A-type nos ------------
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
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ReePeR McAllem
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2009.08.22 03:18:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jin Entres
So tell me again, what can your fit take that mine can't?
Its not a competition, drake bad example ofc.
Originally by: Jin Entres
I'm sorry but they're not. They are very similar. Yours has the advantage of agility and speed (2k m/s vs 1.5k m/s) while mine has the advantage of hitpoints and range. Your damage is only superior under 15 km which is most of the time the worst range to be at for the purpose the ship is used for and at which range your drawback of lacking hitpoints becomes a vulnerability most easy to exploit.
3.1kps with max velocity skills and lvl 5 chassis. Yours has the advantage of range, range means nothing in low sec pvp at some point or another. It more comes to agility and piloting skills.
Originally by: Jin Entres
The point that you can make and that I will respect is that the extra agility and speed makes a difference for the type of roaming / whatever you do. I don't think it is justified by the shortcomings in other areas but I can accept that it is at least an acceptable reason for using your setup.
Not just a little extra agility a whole lot more, you will get caught out on that I guarantee
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ReePeR McAllem
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2009.08.22 03:20:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega I would trade a web for a 6th gun and use snakes instead of nomads. And rig with all ambits. Like the other guy said, not much point in fighting at range if you do crappy damage their.
Go ahead, and whilst your at it check out your agility.
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.08.22 03:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: ReePeR McAllem
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega I would trade a web for a 6th gun and use snakes instead of nomads. And rig with all ambits. Like the other guy said, not much point in fighting at range if you do crappy damage their.
Go ahead, and whilst your at it check out your agility.
I am well aware of what nomads and nanos do. I just think speed and dps are more important than aligning faster, since you sure as hell aren't going to have any problems maintaining orbit.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2009.08.22 03:53:00 -
[19]
Quote:
3.1kps with max velocity skills and lvl 5 chassis. Yours has the advantage of range, range means nothing in low sec pvp at some point or another. It more comes to agility and piloting skills.
I have the exact setup you posted in EFT and it's giving me 2061 m/s (2929 overheated).
About agi. Flying a vaga it is crucial since you need to be able to react to fast opponents' moves within a short time frame. The webs on the Loki, however, greatly reduce the need to use the MWD tactically to the same extent. You don't need to constantly be alert that your prey will pounce at you with an overheated mwd boost and catch you: their speed is reduced by ~80% which makes even the fast ships' bursts pathetic.
So as far as range control is concerned, I think Vaga and Rapier/Huginn/Loki are in clearly different categories: vaga needs to be fast and nimble to survive, the others don't so much.
The aspect of agility that does matter, however, is aligning, whether it's getting out of a gate before getting tackled or taking a hike when reinforcements warp in. This is something that is very difficult to measure in usefulness. And it depends on application. We clearly use our Lokis differently: you in lowsec presumably and me in hisec (empire wars). I don't worry so much about getting caught so agility is secondary. When I do go to lowsec, though, I prefer a cloaking recon and would probably fit a cloak sub on the Loki aswell. ----------------------
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.22 08:18:00 -
[20]
I'd use Gallente webs, "only" 35km range, but better web strenght. THat extra 5% per web is actually nice.
As for the setup itself, looks interesitng, Vaga on speed with web is nice :). And if more tank really is needed one can use 2 LSE and 1 web, toh two webs si toally awesome on such a setup with range.
More or less teh same weaknesses as a Vaga as well, but nifty stuff. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
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Pippan
Synthetic Frontiers
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Posted - 2009.08.22 09:02:00 -
[21]
OP fit is surprisingly close to what i use.
[Loki, New Setup 1] Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Nanofiber Internal Structure II Reactor Control Unit II
Domination 10MN MicroWarpdrive Domination Warp Disruptor Gallente Navy Stasis Webifier Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M Amarr Navy Medium Energy Neutralizer
Projectile Ambit Extension I Projectile Ambit Extension I Core Defence Field Extender I
Loki Defensive - Adaptive Shielding Loki Electronics - Immobility Drivers Loki Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array Loki Propulsion - Chassis Optimization
Hobgoblin II x5
Instead of nomads i roll a hg snake set though. ------ Every time you kill a Falcon a kitten is saved. Please, save the kittens. |
adriaans
Amarr Ankaa.
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Posted - 2009.08.22 14:19:00 -
[22]
i'd fit for more falloff, that way you can stay at 29km and still hit very nice with autocannons, dual web might not be needed and could use another LSE. faction nanofiber is cheap too.
More or less same fit as i would use -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze crystals for Amarr!
Originally by: UMEE if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail.
QFT! |
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