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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.28 07:13:00 -
[421]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: testirania So you let the BOD take out money while the costumers, whom they were supposed to work for arent allowed to get theirs ? Isnt this "friends taking care of friends" ? And if the BOD all were commited to making this work out, then shouldnt they have proven so by leaving their ISK in the bank instead of this insider trading kind of action ?
This seems more and more to be a case of the BOD taking care of themself first instead of the customers as YOU! have put forth that is your interest.
Possibly.
When the liquidity crisis became apparent several staff and directors deposited ISK into their sweep account to help us out. I allowed them to withdraw that ISK; some did, others didn't.
So all the other people who deposited isk in the last week or two, who won't get their money back are less important to you than the ****ups who caused this mess?
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MonwrathDisortium
Incarnation of Evil
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Posted - 2009.08.28 07:23:00 -
[422]
to all those people in this thread who still believe in and support Ebank I would like to offer my services. Send me your isk and I swear I will pay you 10% intrest every month on deposits over 1b isk.
To the directors of Ebank I would like to quote Steve Miller, "Take the money and run"
Cmon, we know it will happen so quit stringing people along and just tell them. You arent getting anything back. Give up and call it a loss, learn from it.
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Kaaii
Caldari KaaiiNet Holding Executor Corp
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Posted - 2009.08.28 08:18:00 -
[423]
Bernie Madof would be proud
According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
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Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations
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Posted - 2009.08.28 08:26:00 -
[424]
Originally by: Kalrand So all the other people who deposited isk in the last week or two, who won't get their money back are less important to you than the ****ups who caused this mess?
/me shrugs.
I'm trying to avoid getting into specifics, as it doesn't matter who it was. But the staffers that deposited ISK into their sweep account (which doesn't accrue interest) did so to help us out in a crisis, they're also not responsible for this mess. I made a judgement call in the situation and allowed them to recover their ISK before the freeze so as not to punish them unfairly for a kind act.
If you find this unacceptable, then I'm here for the hanging, head in noose and feet standing on a stool. Feel free to kick it away.
Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah |
Taryn Ceridwen
Un4seen Development
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Posted - 2009.08.28 08:28:00 -
[425]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: TraderAlt 3104989531
1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well? 2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)?
1. Yes. 2. 28b if I'm not mistaken, from the accounts I know about. I authorised the withdrawals.
Unbelievable! You allowed employees and board members, who at the very least, are culpable if not outright complicit in this entire debacle, to withdraw 28B from their accounts before publicly announcing the freeze on withdrawals? Insider trading anyone? This is downright dishonest and does nothing to inspire confidence that customers will ever see a single isk back. According to the OP, 28B is 3 week's interest on customers' accounts and whilst admittedly a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things, at the very least that isk should be put to use in recovering the deficit and give the impression of trying to put customer interests first. Surely it is not too much to ask that EBank employees stand in line like the rest of us?
Ray, while I appreciate that this mess is not of your making and that you have been handed a big stinking pile of ****, do you honestly believe that statements such as these made above are helping this situation? Perception is all in situations like this. What would be more helpful would be a very clear timetable for announcements and decisions, not nebulous 'we are looking at solutions and will make an announcement sometime' - I want to know what my options are, or at the very least know when I will know what my options are.
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Bluebeard
Minmatar LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2009.08.28 08:39:00 -
[426]
Originally by: Ray McCormack When the liquidity crisis became apparent several staff and directors deposited ISK into their sweep account to help us out. I allowed them to withdraw that ISK; some did, others didn't.
Could you tell us how much isk was put into the Sweep Accounts by the staff at this time.
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Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations
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Posted - 2009.08.28 09:00:00 -
[427]
Originally by: Bluebeard Could you tell us how much isk was put into the Sweep Accounts by the staff at this time.
Not precisely, but it was in excess of 45b, over a period of time.
Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah |
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations
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Posted - 2009.08.28 09:09:00 -
[428]
Originally by: Taryn Ceridwen What would be more helpful would be a very clear timetable for announcements and decisions, not nebulous 'we are looking at solutions and will make an announcement sometime' - I want to know what my options are, or at the very least know when I will know what my options are.
No, things will happen when they happen. I'm not going to be forced into releasing time frames only to be trolled on here when they're not met (which will happen, this is a game, we have lives outside of EVE).
I have indicated a plan will be published in a month or so, and we're looking to establish methods for people to get their ISK at a reduced rate by then. I cannot offer more than that. And before you jump on this point, remember we are doing this because we feel it is the right thing to do for both the customers and the bank.
Do not vilify the staffers staying on to help recuperate this drunken horse, they are acting with best intentions. You may disagree with either the methods or intentions outlined, but it does not give you the right to criticise or demean their character. These are stand up guys who are staying on in the face of all adversity, they deserve that much respect.
Some of them are responsible for the position the bank find itself in, and they're staying on because of that and accept their failings; but others are not responsible. Do not lump them all in the same boat, and remember that your attacks affect those who have no part to play in the culpability.
Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah |
Bluebeard
Minmatar LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2009.08.28 09:09:00 -
[429]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Bluebeard Could you tell us how much isk was put into the Sweep Accounts by the staff at this time.
Not precisely, but it was in excess of 45b, over a period of time.
Ok, so when it looked like there was a liquidity problem, the staff injected 45bil of their own isk to cover what was hopefully a temporary problem and later on when it became obvious that the problem was serious, you allowed them to recover 28bil of the injected isk ?
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Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations
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Posted - 2009.08.28 09:12:00 -
[430]
Edited by: Ray McCormack on 28/08/2009 09:14:20
Originally by: Bluebeard Ok, so when it looked like there was a liquidity problem, the staff injected 45bil of their own isk to cover what was hopefully a temporary problem and later on when it became obvious that the problem was serious, you allowed them to recover 28bil of the injected isk ?
Correct.
Edit : I'm not 100% certain on the figures, but they're accurate enough to paint the picture.
Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah |
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Bluebeard
Minmatar LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2009.08.28 09:25:00 -
[431]
Originally by: Ray McCormack Edited by: Ray McCormack on 28/08/2009 09:14:20
Originally by: Bluebeard Ok, so when it looked like there was a liquidity problem, the staff injected 45bil of their own isk to cover what was hopefully a temporary problem and later on when it became obvious that the problem was serious, you allowed them to recover 28bil of the injected isk ?
Correct.
Edit : I'm not 100% certain on the figures, but they're accurate enough to paint the picture.
This makes it look like an interest free loan from the staff, that has been partially repaid, rather than an attempt by the staff to cash out ahead of the other investors.
By only mentioning the 28bil repaid, you were seriously asking for a kicking from the (rightfully) enraged investors that are posting in here.
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Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations
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Posted - 2009.08.28 09:31:00 -
[432]
Originally by: Bluebeard By only mentioning the 28bil repaid, you were seriously asking for a kicking from the (rightfully) enraged investors that are posting in here.
Yes, but at least I weeded out some of the drama queens not looking to think or discuss things through logically.
I can supply answers to questions, I'm not going to outline the entire situation every time. If people want to fly off the handle at every sign of an apparent indiscretion then that's their prerogative. I'm not here to baby them into accepting my every decision.
Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah |
Taryn Ceridwen
Un4seen Development deadspace society
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Posted - 2009.08.28 09:58:00 -
[433]
Ray, surely it is in your best interests to outline the situation and not just answer questions. Forgive me for being a 'drama queen' but when such statements are made baldly and without historical context, then it is understandable that people, who have to all intent and purpose lost money, jump to the wrong conclusion.
As I stated in my last post, most people recognise that you are not, personally, responsible for any of this, yet you have put yourself in the position of responsibility and part of that responsibility is to paint as full a picture of the situation as you can. As I mentioned previously perception is all and my perception of the situation would have been different had I known that 28B of withdrawals was part of a larger 45B injection of liquidity and an attempt to stave off the present crisis.
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Roguehalo
Caldari RH Ship Brokers
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Posted - 2009.08.28 09:58:00 -
[434]
Edited by: Roguehalo on 28/08/2009 10:00:45 I've been following the various Ebank drama bombs from afar for the last couple of years(I never could persuade myself to give ricdic my isk ) and what I always found interesting is that although liquidity was always considered to be important nobody ever seemed to ask about solvency.
So I'll ask.
Was Ebank EVER solvent? If it was, at what point did it become insolvent?
This question is kinda more directed at the outraged investors than at Ray. Solvency should have been your number one concern right from the off. And it's a subject that should have been hammered again and again and again.
edited for spelling
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Betty Rhage
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Posted - 2009.08.28 12:24:00 -
[435]
Ok I warned people, and no response..
EBANK was never planned to be solvent. The idea was simply to "fly free" in eve at others expense, and make some isk doing it.. via something no quit a ponzi scheme. The early investors where in fact a part of this, and knew exactly how this was going to turn out, although the later investors where never told in order to keep it going.
The problem was they all never expected Unholy Rage, so when they got bitten by it it just happened to be at a low point in the cycle..
Lucky for ebank, I have to get to work now as my 'ship' is here. More later. - Betty |
Crosskeys
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Posted - 2009.08.28 13:19:00 -
[436]
Originally by: Betty Rhage Ok I warned people, and no response..
EBANK was never planned to be solvent. The idea was simply to "fly free" in eve at others expense, and make some isk doing it.. via something no quit a ponzi scheme. The early investors where in fact a part of this, and knew exactly how this was going to turn out, although the later investors where never told in order to keep it going.
The problem was they all never expected Unholy Rage, so when they got bitten by it it just happened to be at a low point in the cycle..
Lucky for ebank, I have to get to work now as my 'ship' is here. More later.
cool story bro.
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species2143
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Posted - 2009.08.28 13:20:00 -
[437]
Originally by: Betty Rhage Ok I warned people, and no response..
EBANK was never planned to be solvent. The idea was simply to "fly free" in eve at others expense, and make some isk doing it.. via something no quit a ponzi scheme. The early investors where in fact a part of this, and knew exactly how this was going to turn out, although the later investors where never told in order to keep it going.
The problem was they all never expected Unholy Rage, so when they got bitten by it it just happened to be at a low point in the cycle..
Lucky for ebank, I have to get to work now as my 'ship' is here. More later.
Cool story bro.
You of course know this because you where one of the original investors or a member of EBANK staff right? Without any facts your accusations are nothing more than a stale fart admidst a vulcanic eruption... insignificant.
Let me guess you have a "source" that used to work within EBANK that has feeded you all this information? You can back-up these accusations with proof or are you simply seeking your 30 seconds of E-attention and E-drama?
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Dariah Stardweller
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Posted - 2009.08.28 13:23:00 -
[438]
Well, whatever the case, fact is Ebank displayed incredible incompetence and I seriously doubt if they will be trusted again even if they do manage to recover.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.08.28 13:32:00 -
[439]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 28/08/2009 13:32:54
Quote:
CCP have spent a lot of time over the years boasting of the economic system in this game. They have made good PR from the fact that there are 'real' banks where players have invested a great deal of time and effort into solving the problems presented by the complete lack of supporting functionality. It's about damn time they put some freaking effort in themselves and added the features that are needed so banks can exist and investors can have some degree of security
They made PR because it's extraordinary that actual players of a sandbox game are given by said game a starter sufficient enough to achieve a secondary market.
If EvE had those pre-made facilities, the game would not be a sandbox any more, nor it'd be a newspapers-worthy news for them to create a secondary market. Because they'd just be "canned game facilities users", a lot akin to WoW auction house users.
Quote:
However, I would be surprised if CCP ever did this, more to their shame. It would only be a minor effort on their part, compared to other development projects. I am sure the players in this forum could put together a list of half a dozen features
Yes it'd be easy, exactly like how it'd be easy to close A LOT of loose ends in this game.
But then, EvE won't be EvE any more. It'll be another theme park, where guided players use canned and tested facilities to achieve canned results.
Quote:
And until they implement these things, you just aren't going to be able to have proper banks in Eve
Maybe because EvE does not need "proper" banks. So the issue is here, but it's artificial and due to players bringing in RL mentality in a game. Maybe what's needed in EvE is another kind of institutions that are yet to be discovered.
Remember that the foundations of EvE's "market" has been laid down by Hexxx, a RL bank consultant. He brought an RL implementation in a game.
Maybe we need to break and go beyond those foundations and find out what works in *this* world. *IF* there's something that works in this world.
Selene is trying. Apparently lotteries work well in EvE, poker works well. A new concept of bank could also work well and where a generation of bank is dying, others are coming up (I also refer to Ulecese's effort).
What looks quite sure and established is that nothing is set in stone nor sure nor people shouldn't risk what they can't afford to lose.
Maybe future banks (if the game will even need them) could finally build upon the Laws Of EvE and not monkeying the RL laws.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.08.28 13:56:00 -
[440]
The most important thing to any Bank (or large project) is highly accurate reporting. IHFS looks to have this down pretty well and Selene's project too. EBANK struggled with this.
Ray should be commended for his efforts to date...the Board made a difficult decision but Ray gave them the visibility that helped them come to this. Without Ray, the Board wouldn't have been fully aware of the staggering problem. I shouldn't need to spell out what that would have meant for the Bank months from now.
As for past activities....I'm not a RL Banker. I'm a consultant who works on governance (controls, process, and policy). I understand audits and reporting and I happen to enjoy finance. I had the knowledge, but not the tools to see into EBANK's true financial state. This is no excuse for the challenges EBANK finds itself in, and I take responsibility for things being where they are now. To EBANK's customers; I am sorry.
It has been 2 years since I launched the first version of EBANK. I have no real personal wealth anymore and while I enjoy EVE, I don't really log in. The markets are the reason I "play" and as such, this is has burned me out a bit. I'll be working with EBANK a bit and posting occasionally but for a while at least I won't be around as much.
EBANK - Advisor | www.eve-bank.net
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Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.28 13:59:00 -
[441]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Maybe because EvE does not need "proper" banks. So the issue is here, but it's artificial and due to players bringing in RL mentality in a game. Maybe what's needed in EvE is another kind of institutions that are yet to be discovered.
Remember that the foundations of EvE's "market" has been laid down by Hexxx, a RL bank consultant. He brought an RL implementation in a game.
Maybe we need to break and go beyond those foundations and find out what works in *this* world. *IF* there's something that works in this world.
Selene is trying. Apparently lotteries work well in EvE, poker works well. A new concept of bank could also work well and where a generation of bank is dying, others are coming up (I also refer to Ulecese's effort).
What looks quite sure and established is that nothing is set in stone nor sure nor people shouldn't risk what they can't afford to lose.
Maybe future banks (if the game will even need them) could finally build upon the Laws Of EvE and not monkeying the RL laws.
Eve's sandbox for the economy is much closer to that of the 19th century than that of the 21st. You should look at what institutions flourished in that era.
Lotteries, banks, stock markets, bonds, and loans were all common place.
As were scams, bank runs, pump and dump schemes, debt repudiation, and a complete lack of enforcement.
Prior to the SEC, the gold standard for a public corporation was to have a "Morgan Man" on the board of directors, one of J. P. Morgan's employess, since they were considered to always carry the weight of J.P Morgan himself.
Common people were hard pressed to get loans and insurance, and that's why loan sharking and benevolent associations flourished.
I could go on and on, but what we have here are people trying to apply modern financial theory to a game where there are no enforcement mechanisms that are part of the inherent structure of modern finance.
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Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi
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Posted - 2009.08.28 14:14:00 -
[442]
Originally by: Betty Rhage Ok I warned people, and no response..
EBANK was never planned to be solvent. The idea was simply to "fly free" in eve at others expense, and make some isk doing it.. via something no quit a ponzi scheme. The early investors where in fact a part of this, and knew exactly how this was going to turn out, although the later investors where never told in order to keep it going.
The problem was they all never expected Unholy Rage, so when they got bitten by it it just happened to be at a low point in the cycle..
Lucky for ebank, I have to get to work now as my 'ship' is here. More later.
Really? This is your shocking revelation?
Son... I am disappoint
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.08.28 14:40:00 -
[443]
Quote:
Eve's sandbox for the economy is much closer to that of the 19th century than that of the 21st. You should look at what institutions flourished in that era.
I looked, else I would not have created a previous post about creating exactly the institutions that made 19th century finance into 20th century (money fund, FDIC alike institution etc).
Quote: Common people were hard pressed to get loans and insurance, and that's why loan sharking and benevolent associations flourished.
I could go on and on, but what we have here are people trying to apply modern financial theory to a game where there are no enforcement mechanisms that are part of the inherent structure of modern finance.
No, there's no past or future finance for EvE because it's not *real*. The GREAT difference between EvE and RL are two:
1) Inability to forcibly identify debtors and make them pay (money, jail etc).
2) There's not *need* for money. None is going to starve to death in EvE, money can be created out of nowhere (ie missions). So a bank or whatever institution has first to convince people that they make sense at all to exist, which is not so easy.
Future banks will have to take these crucial points into account. The times for "reputation" are over, as well for the "1.5% or GTFO" credo.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.28 15:18:00 -
[444]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Eve's sandbox for the economy is much closer to that of the 19th century than that of the 21st. You should look at what institutions flourished in that era.
I looked, else I would not have created a previous post about creating exactly the institutions that made 19th century finance into 20th century (money fund, FDIC alike institution etc).
What moved us into the modern era was direct government regulation. This is something that ccp is not going to provide.
Volunteer systems did exist in the 19th century. Notably some stock exchanges had reporting standards for the stocks and bonds that traded there. Lloyds of London had a system of interlocking guarantees between the different names and syndicates operating under its umbrella.
They were hardly universal.
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Hel O'Ween
Academy of Truth
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Posted - 2009.08.28 15:31:00 -
[445]
Originally by: Varo Jan
Hexxx is an IT consultant, I think. Consulting in the banking or insurance industries does not make him knowledgeable of either industry. You need to read what his posts don¦t say. It¦s an amusing experience.
I don't know Hexx (personally) and what kind of consulting he does in that industry.
But I do know IT consultants working for banks. Those are the guys that wrote the trading software for the banks. They were the ones who know the business from the inside out, because they (had to) developed and implemented the rules based on which the software suggests to the bankers when to sell and when to buy.
As for the financial industry itself. Well, didn't the last two years just prove that they know sh*t about their very own business themselves? -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager |
Fresh Prince
For us all
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Posted - 2009.08.28 16:07:00 -
[446]
Originally by: Makhar Pretty big blow for the banking industry. For a bank in eve to work it has to rely on trust. I predict the end of banks within eve.
Who's to say there isn't anything else? Sure, things don't look great, have they been that much better generally? Isn't there a way this can work? Hard work, more effort? What about diversification? expansion on a micro level? Other options? Have 'they' thought about this? Ummmmm... maybe it looks that way... What if you were in their shoes? Same? Different? What?
Originally by: Makhar I know that if withdrawals are ever turned back on I will be taking out what money I have in and then not using the service again. I imagine the same is true for a lot of others also.
What about someone else doing same again, another way?, different?
Surely, there must be a way of doing: 'what is a bank'... given similar environment/exposure?... same CCP... same / more players... ISK?.
Depending on how you play the game.... you will see it differently, or NOT. Again: There must be something that 'must' work, right?
Someone watching/learning? New ideas? |
Proton Power
Amarr Relentless Construction
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Posted - 2009.08.28 16:27:00 -
[447]
So my question is since EBANK is considred privatly owned and not public which is the reason they used for not reporting, is it not the owners responsiblity to make sure people get there interest and isk back in full?
If it was public and it went heads up then so be it, you invested in a bad investment, but this was private so the private owners would owe the isk no?
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Ulecese
Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel
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Posted - 2009.08.28 16:43:00 -
[448]
Originally by: Hexxx The most important thing to any Bank (or large project) is highly accurate reporting. IHFS looks to have this down pretty well and Selene's project too. EBANK struggled with this.
As hexxx said our backend reporting interface pretty much covers everything, and I'm sure ECR's has similar reporting features since myself and selene have had countless discussions and brainstorming on transparency and reporting. He mentioned that the IHAFS admin backend was pretty much what he had in mind for a universal reporting tool for all major financial business's and I would totally agree, as would anybody who has seen it. I would be happy to offer my advice on getting something like what IHAFS has setup at ebank for no other reason other than interest in making the industry more secure and transparent.
------------------------------------ CEO, Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel
Banking and 3rd Party Transaction Service : http://ihafs-eve.co.uk/ |
Garthran
Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders
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Posted - 2009.08.28 17:12:00 -
[449]
Originally by: Proton Power So my question is since EBANK is considred privatly owned and not public which is the reason they used for not reporting, is it not the owners responsiblity to make sure people get there interest and isk back in full?
If it was public and it went heads up then so be it, you invested in a bad investment, but this was private so the private owners would owe the isk no?
This point has been made previously in this thread. However, do you have a couple trillion ISK lying around? No? Maybe your corp members?
Yeah, instantly and privately resurrecting a deficit that large out of personal wallets is unlikely at best. Also, that whole concept of "owe" goes back to the ongoing discussion in this thread- this is not a structured system. There are not controls in place. They owe, really, only what they feel personally obligated to pay, because we simply can't force them to pay. ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
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Retarded Noob
Caldari The Nightwatch
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Posted - 2009.08.28 17:51:00 -
[450]
halting withdrawals may prevent a run on the bank's under-capitalized finances, but holding money where its true owners cannot reach it is still tantamount to theft. Or you can call it an extended no-interest loan to the bank on the public's behalf if you like. The effect is the same.
it's called a bail out. you should turn eve off for a couple of hours and tune into cnn or something. lol, just trying to lighten things up a bit. no offense meant.
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