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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Nisstyree
Chimera Raiders MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.08.28 18:14:00 -
[451]
Edited by: Nisstyree on 28/08/2009 18:15:54
Originally by: ******ed Noob
halting withdrawals may prevent a run on the bank's under-capitalized finances, but holding money where its true owners cannot reach it is still tantamount to theft. Or you can call it an extended no-interest loan to the bank on the public's behalf if you like. The effect is the same.
it's called a bail out. you should turn eve off for a couple of hours and tune into cnn or something. lol, just trying to lighten things up a bit. no offense meant.
The decidion of freezing the accounts is possibly the only way he had of gaining enough time without everything collapsing. Therefore the decision of freezing the accounts is logical. If he had asked the investors first it would not have been considered a kidnapping of funds or theft, problem is that the very presentation of the vote would have caused a run thus leaving nobody with a choice any more.
I think the decisions taken recently are more imposed rather than chosen for a BANK that actually wants to make it up for their past mistakes. They have had various opportunities for running with whatever they could grab, yet they choose the hard way out of this mess.
In the end the recent events are but symptomes of a larger problem both within and outside of EBANK.
My 2 cents
Edit: Page 16 snipa
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Tesal
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Posted - 2009.08.28 18:26:00 -
[452]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: TraderAlt 3104989531
1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well? 2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)?
1. Yes. 2. 28b if I'm not mistaken, from the accounts I know about. I authorised the withdrawals.
Am I reading this right? You let the BOD pull out their isk to an amount of 28b after you had begun discussing a freeze the bank funds. That was a terrible move, given they were taking out isk at full value while leaving customers with only a fraction of their investment. They walked off with close to 20b isk that wasn't theirs considering cash on hand at the bank. As far as I can see, that is a straight up theft from remaining depositors. This is in addition to all the fees paid out. Its over 100b paid out to EBank insiders as far as I can see. Thats real money, its close to 10% of what you need to set the bank right, and you just passed it out the door to insiders.
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Jerni
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Posted - 2009.08.28 18:40:00 -
[453]
Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: TraderAlt 3104989531
1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well? 2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)?
1. Yes. 2. 28b if I'm not mistaken, from the accounts I know about. I authorised the withdrawals.
Am I reading this right? You let the BOD pull out their isk to an amount of 28b after you had begun discussing a freeze the bank funds. That was a terrible move, given they were taking out isk at full value while leaving customers with only a fraction of their investment. They walked off with close to 20b isk that wasn't theirs considering cash on hand at the bank. As far as I can see, that is a straight up theft from remaining depositors. This is in addition to all the fees paid out. Its over 100b paid out to EBank insiders as far as I can see. Thats real money, its close to 10% of what you need to set the bank right, and you just passed it out the door to insiders.
No, you're not. Read Ray's posts following the one you quoted.
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Dzil
Caldari Halo Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.28 19:00:00 -
[454]
Originally by: Ray McCormack Do not vilify the staffers staying on to help recuperate this drunken horse, they are acting with best intentions. You may disagree with either the methods or intentions outlined, but it does not give you the right to criticise or demean their character. These are stand up guys who are staying on in the face of all adversity, they deserve that much respect.
Some of them are responsible for the position the bank find itself in, and they're staying on because of that and accept their failings; but others are not responsible. Do not lump them all in the same boat, and remember that your attacks affect those who have no part to play in the culpability. [/quote
That's not very realistic Ray. Ebank is accountable to the damage it caused its customers. When you choose not to name specific BoD members for their role in the fault, that implies the board as a whole shares accountability for the damage, even if they specifically didn't cause it. The blame doesn't just go away.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.28 19:08:00 -
[455]
Originally by: Jerni
No, you're not. Read Ray's posts following the one you quoted.
Please also note that Ray is not allowing people who put money in after the BoD members did to take it out.
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Dzil
Caldari Halo Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.28 19:13:00 -
[456]
Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: TraderAlt 3104989531
1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well? 2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)?
1. Yes. 2. 28b if I'm not mistaken, from the accounts I know about. I authorised the withdrawals.
Am I reading this right? You let the BOD pull out their isk to an amount of 28b after you had begun discussing a freeze the bank funds. That was a terrible move, given they were taking out isk at full value while leaving customers with only a fraction of their investment. They walked off with close to 20b isk that wasn't theirs considering cash on hand at the bank. As far as I can see, that is a straight up theft from remaining depositors. This is in addition to all the fees paid out. Its over 100b paid out to EBank insiders as far as I can see. Thats real money, its close to 10% of what you need to set the bank right, and you just passed it out the door to insiders.
I have to mirror this sentiment. Yes, internal BoD members recently put that money into the accounts to attempt to balance solvency personally. However, in the net balance of things, this isn't any different from a customer depositing money in those last 2 weeks either. Nor money customers invested around the time of the first release of information when Ricdic scammed. You essentially allowed insider trading to occur. And again, without specifics to which board members were involved, the community has no choice but to hold the entire board accountable.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Amber Gold
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Posted - 2009.08.28 23:21:00 -
[457]
Simple:
Ask CCP for a bailout,
The US has done it and look what happened!
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Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.08.28 23:45:00 -
[458]
Originally by: Amber Gold Simple:
Ask CCP for a bailout,
The US has done it and look what happened!
It extended the US economic depression and put private companies in bureaucratic government hands? -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Mamer
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Posted - 2009.08.28 23:48:00 -
[459]
Hey, while your at it, and already in a lot of debt, whats a little more right? So what do you say you implement Obamacare for all of the Eve Citizens. Instead of pilots plotting your demise in your pod, bureaucrats will tell the pilots if your clone is worth podding or not. Whats a few more billion in debt gonna hurt?....right?..
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Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations
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Posted - 2009.08.29 00:35:00 -
[460]
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Jerni No, you're not. Read Ray's posts following the one you quoted.
Please also note that Ray is not allowing people who put money in after the BoD members did to take it out.
I know, I'm evil. Someone kick the stool already.
Free reading glasses if you do.
Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah |
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ddr800
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Posted - 2009.08.29 00:56:00 -
[461]
Giggles, bankers are more corrupt than pirates, good luck to all the poor fools that gave them money. If you want an example of why bankers are not to be trusted look at the American bank bail out, bankers in real life are out of control crooks, The idea of them in an uncontrolled environment that they donÆt have to worry about real prison or death is blue print for disaster. If there where game mechanics that force banks to be legit then maybe otherwise itÆs all just huge scam.
Ponzi scam? Ultimately this bank is trying to throw one guy under the bus who did this and blame him, however the entire bank is responsible for this situation and shouldnÆt be trusted it is their combined incompetence that cause this to happen not the act of one man.
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Internal Dispute
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Posted - 2009.08.29 01:29:00 -
[462]
As a person from the outside willing to make a huge investment into EBANK I'm making an offering of 2.75T to buy the bank out of trouble. In return I'm asking for 75% of all isk earned for the next 3 and a half years.
This offer will stand till downtime in 3 days time. Contact me ingame for more details.
I do think EBANK is something worth saving.
(this isk is from a multitude of investors and I've been asked to front it.)
I hope to hear from you soon.
ID.
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Frank Corncob
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Posted - 2009.08.29 02:33:00 -
[463]
Ray is a scapegoat. Regardless of his intentions, he ultimately will bear the burden of the failure of Ebank. The BoD are faceless, Ray is the face of Ebank now, and he will pay the price, whatever it may be.
Just the way it is.
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Montmazar
Vard School of Cryo Cuisine
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Posted - 2009.08.29 04:46:00 -
[464]
Anyone who deposits in an online bank in Eve for anything but roleplaying purposes is a sucker. The rate of return will never outstrip the risk of having all your assets disappear.
The RL alternative to using a bank is stuffing all the money under your mattress. In RL, the risk of fire and theft outstrips the risk of your bank melting down. In Eve, every single player already has access to a perfectly secure place to store unlimited funds. The only thing a bank offers is a rate of return. What is it? 10 percent? Less? Did anyone really think there was less than 10 percent chance of this or something similar happening? Hell, did anyone think the odds of their deposits being frozen or stolen entirely was less than 50?
This is Eve, there are scammers around every corner, everyone can be presumed a liar, and anything outside of your own personal wallet is financial lowsec.
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Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Universal Fleet Operations
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Posted - 2009.08.29 05:13:00 -
[465]
I feel bad for Ray.. however:
About three weeks ago I got a really bad feeling. Couldn't tell what it was but it was something that just told me that EBank wasn't going to stay up. So I pulled my cash, luckily about 14 days or so before this lockdown. It's weird, as I've just decided to reinvest it all into building anyway.
It's.. frustrating to hear that large investors won't be able to pull what they should, but I suppose that's the risk associated with a bank like this. Hence why I probably got that bad feeling. easy enough to say that I won't be participating in player banks anymore. The risks of failure with absolutely no guarantee is too great versus having no real profit out of having it sit in the wallet. I was lucky, and I feel bad for those still stuck
As far as the BoD and staff withdrawals after the discussions of freezing, it just goes to show that there was a lack of faith in their own system. Are there decent people in the BoD? I'm sure there are, but like said countless times before, without names, faces or specifics the entire organization gets the blame here. I'm very disappointed to see all this, especially after how impressed I was with the financial data presented from last year. (It's what made me decide to invest in the first place.) -----
Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked.
"Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.08.29 08:04:00 -
[466]
Quote:
In Eve, every single player already has access to a perfectly secure place to store unlimited funds.
They should change it to the Darkfall Online system: you carry money with you => you will drop it when you are destroyed. This would suddenly make banking look like something very needed. - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Carine Parnasse
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Posted - 2009.08.29 08:23:00 -
[467]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
They should change it to the Darkfall Online system: you carry money with you => you will drop it when you are destroyed. This would suddenly make banking look like something very needed.
Firstly, that makes no sense lorewise(Whats the space term for lore?) Why would my cash in my electronic bank account be dropped when i lose my ship? Secondly, dying in eve is eventually unavoidable. Giving money to others is completly open to theft without recourse. So where do i keep my money?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.08.29 09:08:00 -
[468]
Quote:
Firstly, that makes no sense lorewise(Whats the space term for lore?) Why would my cash in my electronic bank account be dropped when i lose my ship? Secondly, dying in eve is eventually unavoidable. Giving money to others is completly open to theft without recourse. So where do i keep my money?
Why, does it make more sense (if we go to be anal) to have inhordinate amounts stored in a "nowhere", with no charges nor interests to pay, a nowhere that cannot be attacked and is always friendly? To make it EvE lore-ish it should not be totally safe, ever.
In fact, player driven banks are more realistic than our "money out of nowhere" default system. - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Carine Parnasse
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Posted - 2009.08.29 09:55:00 -
[469]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Why, does it make more sense (if we go to be anal) to have inhordinate amounts stored in a "nowhere", with no charges nor interests to pay, a nowhere that cannot be attacked and is always friendly? To make it EvE lore-ish it should not be totally safe, ever.
In fact, player driven banks are more realistic than our "money out of nowhere" default system.
Well, out of nowhere dimension-wise makes sense, but i concede the lack of charges doesnt. It might be more imersive to have your account accrue intrest, and have charges incured for transfers and such, but that sounds like a lot of hassle for CCP. Perhaps our wallets are maintained by concord, hence the security of them, and all the intrest they make off our money is used to fund concord's protection. Since we all use accounts managed by the same place there is no real cost to transfering money between any accounts.
Anyway, out of curiosity, who is on the Ebank BOD? In my limited experience ive never seen them in thier Ebank hats, except Hexx and Ray. This affair reminds me of Dbanks fall, with only Shar really communicating with investors.
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FinancialDragon
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Posted - 2009.08.29 09:56:00 -
[470]
Originally by: Internal Dispute As a person from the outside willing to make a huge investment into EBANK I'm making an offering of 2.75T to buy the bank out of trouble. In return I'm asking for 75% of all isk earned for the next 3 and a half years.
This offer will stand till downtime in 3 days time. Contact me ingame for more details.
I do think EBANK is something worth saving.
(this isk is from a multitude of investors and I've been asked to front it.)
I hope to hear from you soon.
ID.
If this is a serious offer, it looks like an interesting proposition to Ebanks issue, not only does it cover the 1.2tril isk needed, it provides additional liquid capital to make further profitable investments to allow increased earnings to cover losses.
If people can get access to their isk again, some trust would be restored, mabye even earn some trust, so that ebank was able to recover from what people thought was an attempt to steal their isk.
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Proton Power
Amarr Relentless Construction
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Posted - 2009.08.29 14:04:00 -
[471]
Losses
Losses to date have occurred as follows:
1. ~250b û Ricdic Theft. 2. ~380b û Loan Defaults 3. >48b û Share Losses 4. ~466b û Interest Paid 5. ~75b û Salaries
---------
Based on this you are currently short aprox 1.2tril isk, but what about isk gained thorughout EBANKS history?
I know I made Ebank atleast 70bil but more likely towards over the 100bil mark. I know that some loans made isk that were repaid, I was told more than the isk I brought into Ebank so say another 100bil, what about the titan bpo's you have been copying for close to a year now? This does not include the extra isk AC and the Component BPO sales that EBANK was doing, or the advertising fee's EBANK was getting, or the interest it did earn on shares it owns.
Based on the profts EBANK should have made, you should not be near the 1.2tril deficit you claim it to be in, unless a lot more isk than you know disapeared.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.08.29 14:08:00 -
[472]
Originally by: Frank Corncob Ray is a scapegoat. Regardless of his intentions, he ultimately will bear the burden of the failure of Ebank. The BoD are faceless, Ray is the face of Ebank now, and he will pay the price, whatever it may be.
Just the way it is.
I launched the first version of EBANK and served as it's Chairman for 2 years. Ray just joined after the Ricdic incident.
Explain to me again which of us shares more blame?
EBANK - Advisor | www.eve-bank.net
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Proton Power
Amarr Relentless Construction
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Posted - 2009.08.29 14:11:00 -
[473]
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Frank Corncob Ray is a scapegoat. Regardless of his intentions, he ultimately will bear the burden of the failure of Ebank. The BoD are faceless, Ray is the face of Ebank now, and he will pay the price, whatever it may be.
Just the way it is.
I launched the first version of EBANK and served as it's Chairman for 2 years. Ray just joined after the Ricdic incident.
Explain to me again which of us shares more blame?
Hexxx since your the main person that stuck by and said Ebank is not a public venture, who are the private owners that are responsible for the isk to be repaid with all interest that is do to them?
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.08.29 14:41:00 -
[474]
Originally by: Proton Power
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Frank Corncob Ray is a scapegoat. Regardless of his intentions, he ultimately will bear the burden of the failure of Ebank. The BoD are faceless, Ray is the face of Ebank now, and he will pay the price, whatever it may be.
Just the way it is.
I launched the first version of EBANK and served as it's Chairman for 2 years. Ray just joined after the Ricdic incident.
Explain to me again which of us shares more blame?
Hexxx since your the main person that stuck by and said Ebank is not a public venture, who are the private owners that are responsible for the isk to be repaid with all interest that is do to them?
The Board of Directors. That is the task of the Board. I'll be supporting them as they walk that road.
EBANK - Advisor | www.eve-bank.net
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Proton Power
Amarr Relentless Construction
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Posted - 2009.08.29 14:52:00 -
[475]
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Proton Power
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Frank Corncob Ray is a scapegoat. Regardless of his intentions, he ultimately will bear the burden of the failure of Ebank. The BoD are faceless, Ray is the face of Ebank now, and he will pay the price, whatever it may be.
Just the way it is.
I launched the first version of EBANK and served as it's Chairman for 2 years. Ray just joined after the Ricdic incident.
Explain to me again which of us shares more blame?
Hexxx since your the main person that stuck by and said Ebank is not a public venture, who are the private owners that are responsible for the isk to be repaid with all interest that is do to them?
The Board of Directors. That is the task of the Board. I'll be supporting them as they walk that road.
So your saying that the BOD is responsible for making sure that every isk gets paid that is in every account with the interest that they signed up for?
Then why is there talks of liquidating accounts for lower amounts and why is interest cut off by the BOD.
Now if your going ot cut interest off thats fine, but then people should be able to withdrawl isk.
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Dzil
Caldari Halo Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.29 15:07:00 -
[476]
Originally by: Proton Power
So your saying that the BOD is responsible for making sure that every isk gets paid that is in every account with the interest that they signed up for?
Then why is there talks of liquidating accounts for lower amounts and why is interest cut off by the BOD.
Now if your going ot cut interest off thats fine, but then people should be able to withdrawl isk.
Since you clearly haven't read the whole thread (pretty surprising given your usual passion for ebank and drama) - I'll answer your questions for 25m isk.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Tamega
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Posted - 2009.08.29 16:45:00 -
[477]
As someone who has isk in eve bank my questions are this:
1) How likely am I to get 100% of my isk back (I dont really care about the interest I just want back the isk I have worked over 2 years to make)
2) Roughly how long will it take? I know you cant give an actual date, I dont mind if it like 3 months 6 months, whatever, but the idea that 50% of my money is gone is not acceptable.
3) Are there any statements from ccp yet? forget the politics for a second, this is a game, all they have to do is get the account statements from eve bank and change some numbers on a server, as something that was advertised on the eve online site, they should step in, as happened in real life with governments bailing out the banks in the UK, US and many other country's.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.08.29 16:50:00 -
[478]
Originally by: Tamega
3) Are there any statements from ccp yet? forget the politics for a second, this is a game, all they have to do is get the account statements from eve bank and change some numbers on a server, as something that was advertised on the eve online site, they should step in, as happened in real life with governments bailing out the banks in the UK, US and many other country's.
CCP isn't going to get involved in this at all.
CCP has a hands-off policy.
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Frank Corncob
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Posted - 2009.08.29 16:51:00 -
[479]
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Frank Corncob Ray is a scapegoat. Regardless of his intentions, he ultimately will bear the burden of the failure of Ebank. The BoD are faceless, Ray is the face of Ebank now, and he will pay the price, whatever it may be.
Just the way it is.
I launched the first version of EBANK and served as it's Chairman for 2 years. Ray just joined after the Ricdic incident.
Explain to me again which of us shares more blame?
It's not about who deserves the most blame, although it should be, people don't perceive facts like that. Ray put his face out representing Ebank and the majority of people will perceive that the failure is his fault, even though it isn't, but you don't exactly see the BoD all talking on this matter, not like they need to. Or ever did for that matter.
People want to lash out, and it will come down to the first person they come across.
Ray has a stake in this game still, you don't.
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Tesal
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Posted - 2009.08.29 17:32:00 -
[480]
Originally by: Frank Corncob
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Frank Corncob Ray is a scapegoat. Regardless of his intentions, he ultimately will bear the burden of the failure of Ebank. The BoD are faceless, Ray is the face of Ebank now, and he will pay the price, whatever it may be.
Just the way it is.
I launched the first version of EBANK and served as it's Chairman for 2 years. Ray just joined after the Ricdic incident.
Explain to me again which of us shares more blame?
It's not about who deserves the most blame, although it should be, people don't perceive facts like that. Ray put his face out representing Ebank and the majority of people will perceive that the failure is his fault, even though it isn't, but you don't exactly see the BoD all talking on this matter, not like they need to. Or ever did for that matter.
People want to lash out, and it will come down to the first person they come across.
Ray has a stake in this game still, you don't.
See, I told you there were worse posters than me! You didn't believe me. Ha!!!
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