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Aineko Stryer
Minmatar Aineko Accelerando Labs
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Posted - 2009.08.26 11:14:00 -
[1]
Hey there, first I¦m not into industry at all, so excuse my lack of knowledge.
What I¦m wondering is, why did the prices for T2 ships increase so much? I mean for some ships it¦s nearly 100% increase in the last year (example Kronos, bought one for 650 mio last year with T1 rigs, these days you have to be happy to see one for less than 1.1 bio without rigs). And don¦t even get me started about the prices of T2 frigs, I mean seriously...
Invention got cheaper, so it¦s not the BPC, I¦d say. Considering that T2 MODULES are at an all-time low, I suppose it¦s not the T2 parts or minerals (moon minerals perhaps???). Is demand for T2 so high, that producers can just dictate prices?
Could someone enlighten me please?
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience New Eden Hardware Emporium
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Posted - 2009.08.26 11:22:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Sidrat Flush on 26/08/2009 11:23:15
Originally by: Aineko Stryer Hey there, first I¦m not into industry at all, so excuse my lack of knowledge.
What I¦m wondering is, why did the prices for T2 ships increase so much? I mean for some ships it¦s nearly 100% increase in the last year (example Kronos, bought one for 650 mio last year with T1 rigs, these days you have to be happy to see one for less than 1.1 bio without rigs). And don¦t even get me started about the prices of T2 frigs, I mean seriously...
Invention got cheaper, so it¦s not the BPC, I¦d say. Considering that T2 MODULES are at an all-time low, I suppose it¦s not the T2 parts or minerals (moon minerals perhaps???). Is demand for T2 so high, that producers can just dictate prices?
Could someone enlighten me please?
You set up the logistics required to manufacture Tech 2 products and then come back and tell us if the profits you're making (if any) is worth the time and effort.
Generally though it'll be an increase in moon material prices - which depends not only on demand (there always will be demand) but also, how difficult it is to get the finished item in to empire space too.
If alliances/allies are being attacked and their lines of transport are being broken or disrupted that will effect the flow of materials to empire thus creating a higher price.
EDIT: If you have Excel 2007 you can use my spreadsheet to tell you what materials and other input items building a T2 ship entails.
Eve-online Industrial Organiser thread t1 & t2 batch manufacturing |
Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.08.26 11:25:00 -
[3]
Yep, moon minerals. Especially dyspo and promethium.
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Aineko Stryer
Minmatar Aineko Accelerando Labs
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Posted - 2009.08.26 11:30:00 -
[4]
Thanks, I know so much that T2 production is complicated and so deserves a good reward, which I¦m willing to pay.
But seriously T2 prices are becoming so high, that in many cases it¦s not worth it anymore to invest into T2 ships at all.
Of course the specialised ships like Recons or Marauders, that have unique ablities are still worth it.
But for "normal" gank/tank combat ships like HACs and AFs it¦s just WAY to high to make them cost efficient (some AFs reached prices of tier 2 BCs WTF???)
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Ctica
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Posted - 2009.08.26 11:32:00 -
[5]
Because the CCP dev who designed the production tree got way over excited about it and added way too many tiers in the production process for such a low tech level.
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Aineko Stryer
Minmatar Aineko Accelerando Labs
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Posted - 2009.08.26 11:39:00 -
[6]
thanks for the info.
moon-mineral-price-whine thread in preparation....
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience New Eden Hardware Emporium
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Posted - 2009.08.26 11:40:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ctica Because the CCP dev who designed the production tree got way over excited about it and added way too many tiers in the production process for such a low tech level.
Oh hail thee o great one - you nailed it right on the head. The jump from T1 to T2 not only in terms of skills required (which isn't THAT great), but more in terms of logistics is way overboard.
Goodness knows what T5 will be like, although if T3 requires gas harvesting in some un-named system that's not even on the map, maybe in future we'll need to visit the gates of Hades and barter with our souls.
Or better still someone elses soul.
Eve-online Industrial Organiser thread t1 & t2 batch manufacturing |
RedClaws
Amarr Dragon's Rage Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.08.26 11:54:00 -
[8]
You'll only be able to build T5 ships at the specialised shipyard at the end of a very large and difficult complex.
Each time you want to take stuff out of it or put stuff in you'll have to find and do the entire complex :p (*cough* wow *cough*)
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Aineko Stryer
Minmatar Aineko Accelerando Labs
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Posted - 2009.08.26 11:59:00 -
[9]
Well the complicated system for production has been in place for some time now.
It was equally complicated to produce T2 ships a year ago, so it doesn¦t explain the increase in ISK costs in the last 12 months.
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Avalon Champion
The Order of Odin
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Posted - 2009.08.26 12:07:00 -
[10]
Dont forget that earlier this year the reaction exploit was closed, which caused a significant spike in advanced material prices.
I'd say the advanced material prices have just about settled down now, especially ferrogel and fermionic condensates.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.08.26 12:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Aineko Stryer
Invention got cheaper, so it¦s not the BPC, I¦d say.
Since when has ship or any invention become cheaper?
The reason why ships are shooting up and modules aren't, modules don't need the ridiculous amount of complex reactions (and thus their raw materials) and invariably don't require even the most highly prized items from a Gallente perspective:
Fusion Reactors Pulse Shield Emitters
...in turn they need:
Fermionic Condensates Ferrogel
...and thus the reason for the continued price increases (certainly from a Gallente perspective) is the ever spiralling cost of Fermionic Condensates and especially Ferrogel.
Not so long ago, I was building Ishtars for around 80m. Now it's around 110m.
As others have said, it's a long production chain and people want to keep their profit margins (stupid Inventors aside). I doubt CCP will change anything, so it begs the question, what will happen?
Well I suspect that the prices will keep rising until demand falls off... once T2 ships start to become too costly for the buyer, the seller(s) may well start to reduce production to reduce the stockpile of unsold goods. In turn, people will not need as much moon minerals/reactions/complex reactions and hopefully the sellers of said items will reduce their prices.
However I doubt it
Removed. Please keep your EVE signature related to your EVE persona and not that of a real life politician. Navigator |
Miyamoto Uroki
Caldari Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2009.08.26 13:12:00 -
[12]
hehe, and so do I...
imho, not much will stop the prices to rise except CCP coming around and changing moon mineral distribution mechanic. About time and urgent, but CCP will grant themselves another year or two before acting..
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.08.26 13:16:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Miyamoto Uroki hehe, and so do I...
imho, not much will stop the prices to rise except CCP coming around and changing moon mineral distribution mechanic. About time and urgent, but CCP will grant themselves another year or two before acting..
They don't need to change moon mineral distribution, they just need to change Alchemy from R16 to R8's or gasses. Something which means that Alchemy is worth doing when moon minerals reach a certain price, and an unlimited amount can occur while they remain above that price (like invention does for T2 BPOs). As it stands Alchemy can only ever increase the supply by a couple of % while invention for T2 increases the supply by several hundred %.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.08.26 15:07:00 -
[14]
1) The years long POS exploit that created masses of moon minerals "for free" has been fixed and now escorts have depleted.
2) Playerbase increases sensibly, moons stayed the same. - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Jobie Thickburger
Gallente StateCraft Industries SpaceMonkey's Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.26 16:03:00 -
[15]
I'd have to agree with the above as well, The primary factor is that the number of moon minreals in game is pretty much a constant (from what I gather even less of one now than the beginning of the year), while the player base (and the number of T2 pilots out there) has increased at a steady rate.
Just be glad not to be living in the 'olden' day's of my prime when a Hulk was 500 mil isk and T2 cruisers ran from 250-500/ea
Executor, The Economy
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Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.08.26 16:44:00 -
[16]
the supply of good moons are fixed
the total number and average pocket book of players is increasing however.
Lets face it its peak oil in space as far as T2 is concerned.
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Stop freaking worrying about why things the developers did 5 years and more ago no longer make sense. |
Zartanic
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Posted - 2009.08.26 18:45:00 -
[17]
Originally by: RedClaws You'll only be able to build T5 ships at the specialised shipyard at the end of a very large and difficult complex.
Each time you want to take stuff out of it or put stuff in you'll have to find and do the entire complex :p (*cough* wow *cough*)
And I bet the complex will be called Blood Warders Lair and you need to convert them to your cause.
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Ellefaine
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Posted - 2009.08.27 00:06:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jobie Thickburger Just be glad not to be living in the 'olden' day's of my prime when a Hulk was 500 mil isk and T2 cruisers ran from 250-500/ea
I certainly have to agree. While there has been a definate rise in prices due to the closing of the POS exploit, calling the current prices "ridiculous" is a bit of a stretch. All those involved in Invention can tell you that the prices we are paying is very slim on profit margins. Anyone that was here before invention can certainly remeber the "good ol' days". 275M for my first Ishtar and 450M for my Hulk. And who can forget 24M for a single Cap Recharger II.
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.27 01:31:00 -
[19]
There are a number of interesting theories presented here... but the truth maybe something that some don't want you to know.
I assume that even being non-industrial you still have noticed the prices of minerals rise and fall. Recently there was an extreme paradyne shift where tritanium that was king of minerals lost almost half its worth. At the same time, ice and ice products have skyrocketed. Ice is used primarily as fuel for things like cynosural jumps and POS's.
T2 component parts are created through moon mining and producing reactive elements which need to be done in POS's. With higher cost now of running POS's, prices of T2 construction is now more expensive. With margins already tight due to competition, manufacturers naturally pass that extra cost on to the customer. So your T2 ships are more expensive.
This will change. Prices will shift again as they always do. As to why the prices shifted, well, if you can understand that you can make a fortune in isk overnight.
It's all really as simple as supply and demand.
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Kartana Gilbor
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Posted - 2009.08.27 11:24:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Kartana Gilbor on 27/08/2009 11:25:07 Edited by: Kartana Gilbor on 27/08/2009 11:24:34
Originally by: Barbara Nichole With higher cost now of running POS's, prices of T2 construction is now more expensive.
It's all really as simple as supply and demand.
Wrong. Your telling me that spending an extra 20 mil on fuel for a large pos in a month is a concern when running dyspro and promethium moons with a massive monthly income? The reality is Bob have gone, who were a major contributor to the T2 material market, Exploits have been fixed reducing the outpout of raw t2 materials, alliances are fighting like cat and dog over dyspro moons and using minerals for themselves now so it's simply down to the fact stated several times above; Supply is down after exploit fixes, which wont increase unless the number of moons increases or the mechanics change, and more players = higher demand. Fairly simple math tbh.
The proportionately small increase in POS fuel does not justify the huge price increases on T2 ship types at all.
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Mr Siman
Spawn More Overlords
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Posted - 2009.08.28 01:00:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kartana Gilbor Edited by: Kartana Gilbor on 27/08/2009 11:25:07 Edited by: Kartana Gilbor on 27/08/2009 11:24:34
Originally by: Barbara Nichole With higher cost now of running POS's, prices of T2 construction is now more expensive.
It's all really as simple as supply and demand.
Wrong. Your telling me that spending an extra 20 mil on fuel for a large pos in a month is a concern when running dyspro and promethium moons with a massive monthly income? The reality is Bob have gone, who were a major contributor to the T2 material market, Exploits have been fixed reducing the outpout of raw t2 materials, alliances are fighting like cat and dog over dyspro moons and using minerals for themselves now so it's simply down to the fact stated several times above; Supply is down after exploit fixes, which wont increase unless the number of moons increases or the mechanics change, and more players = higher demand. Fairly simple math tbh.
The proportionately small increase in POS fuel does not justify the huge price increases on T2 ship types at all.
Not saying you're wrong, but how many more POSs and extra raw materials does it take to turn raw dyspro into a useful ship component? I think it's an awful lot more than just 20mil a month in fuel. Whether that's enough to explain the entirety of of the price increase? Doubtful. But it could be a non-trivial contributor.
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Kartana Gilbor
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Posted - 2009.08.28 10:00:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Mr Siman
Originally by: Kartana Gilbor Edited by: Kartana Gilbor on 27/08/2009 11:25:07 Edited by: Kartana Gilbor on 27/08/2009 11:24:34
Originally by: Barbara Nichole With higher cost now of running POS's, prices of T2 construction is now more expensive.
It's all really as simple as supply and demand.
Wrong. Your telling me that spending an extra 20 mil on fuel for a large pos in a month is a concern when running dyspro and promethium moons with a massive monthly income? The reality is Bob have gone, who were a major contributor to the T2 material market, Exploits have been fixed reducing the outpout of raw t2 materials, alliances are fighting like cat and dog over dyspro moons and using minerals for themselves now so it's simply down to the fact stated several times above; Supply is down after exploit fixes, which wont increase unless the number of moons increases or the mechanics change, and more players = higher demand. Fairly simple math tbh.
The proportionately small increase in POS fuel does not justify the huge price increases on T2 ship types at all.
Not saying you're wrong, but how many more POSs and extra raw materials does it take to turn raw dyspro into a useful ship component? I think it's an awful lot more than just 20mil a month in fuel. Whether that's enough to explain the entirety of of the price increase? Doubtful. But it could be a non-trivial contributor.
Yeah your probably right, at least for moon miners but not for manufacturers. Point is, considering the income from dyspro moons it's hardly gonna justify plasma thrusters doubling in price making MWD's silly prices.
Perhaps CCP will revisit alchemy in the winter expansion?
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Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.08.28 15:57:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kartana Gilbor
Originally by: Mr Siman
Originally by: Kartana Gilbor
Originally by: Barbara Nichole
.
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Yeah your probably right, at least for moon miners but not for manufacturers. Point is, considering the income from dyspro moons it's hardly gonna justify plasma thrusters doubling in price making MWD's silly prices.
Perhaps CCP will revisit alchemy in the winter expansion?
Doubtfull from what I have seen CCPS solution to T2 is to introduce more and more T3 ships thus shifting demand from T2 to T3
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Stop freaking worrying about why things the developers did 5 years and more ago no longer make sense. |
Astarte Molesto
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Posted - 2009.09.26 10:58:00 -
[24]
This is all down to the moon exploit.
pre-exploit the material cost of a golem was c 600 to 620m and they sold for around 650-680m, you could make about 10 percent if you made all the components yourself using max research BP's and could cover the costs of invention with around 5 percent profit.
Now the cost of a golem (in pure materials such as ferrogel) is around 980m with a -3 ME, with the (maxed invention skills and avg probability) cost of invention being about 30-50m a BP depending on chance thats around 1020-1030bn (although with even a slight shift in ferrogel this can leap to 1050bn). so you make 30mn on a 1BN isk investment, with all the components you had to make and invention time it probably took a week or so to make it - you can get 30m from running and looting/salvaging AE L4.....
So inventing/manufacturing profits are virtually non-existant on T2 ships at the moment, and almost 95% cost is going straight to the T2 materials producers/sellers.
And of course the factor is that a lot of people had ships that they bought for 650m and are now worth nearly 1.1bn so they are cashing in and actually selling them below build cost, which probably also explains why the CNR jumped from 350m to 650m (the old golem price point) and golem sales fell off a cliff.
So the blame for T2 is simply the closing of the exploit, the huge jump in material costs and CCP not doing anything about it to readjust prices down to a sensible level i.e more moons or more profitable alchemy.
But i can tell you straight as a T2 builder/inventor I'm not making any isk out of the prices because I have at least 3 golem prints that aren't even worth the paper they are printed on at the moment.
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Kleranna
Minmatar Hitodama Industrial Cooperative Operations Manifest Destiny.
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Posted - 2009.09.26 12:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Astarte Molesto
So the blame for T2 is simply the closing of the exploit, the huge jump in material costs and CCP not doing anything about it to readjust prices down to a sensible level i.e more moons or more profitable alchemy.
During the alliance tourney coverage, one of the devs was asked about what Dominion meant for moon mining profits and his answer was something to the effect of 'It depends on whether you have a lot of Dysprosium/Prometheum moons'. So it sounds like that aspect of T2 production supplies which is holding prices up will be fixed (or at least improved) in Dominion.
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destinationunreachable
Hello Kitty Fanclub
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Posted - 2009.09.26 12:13:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kleranna
During the alliance tourney coverage, one of the devs was asked about what Dominion meant for moon mining profits and his answer was something to the effect of 'It depends on whether you have a lot of Dysprosium/Prometheum moons'. So it sounds like that aspect of T2 production supplies which is holding prices up will be fixed (or at least improved) in Dominion.
Yes, CCP has stated at several places that they will nerf moon income. They haven't said how, but I assume a massive boost to alchemy to set (just like T2-> invention) a lower price limit to the R64 moon material.
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2009.09.26 12:48:00 -
[27]
Originally by: destinationunreachable
Yes, CCP has stated at several places that they will nerf moon income. They haven't said how, but I assume a massive boost to alchemy to set (just like T2-> invention) a lower price limit to the R64 moon material.
During Tournament live translation CCP mentioned that they probably will change component distribution in T2 ship BPO's. I.e., less reactors, more armor plates. I think that may be good solution, because not only R64's need nerfing, low moons need some love. Especially if in Dominion there will be no more SOV holding POS'es, which now may mine gases and other crap as small support for fuel costs.
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Kokura Nin
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Posted - 2009.09.26 12:52:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Kokura Nin on 26/09/2009 12:52:06
Originally by: Astarte Molesto This is all down to the moon exploit.
pre-exploit the material cost of a golem was c 600 to 620m and they sold for around 650-680m, you could make about 10 percent if you made all the components yourself using max research BP's and could cover the costs of invention with around 5 percent profit.
Now the cost of a golem (in pure materials such as ferrogel) is around 980m with a -3 ME, with the (maxed invention skills and avg probability) cost of invention being about 30-50m a BP depending on chance thats around 1020-1030bn (although with even a slight shift in ferrogel this can leap to 1050bn). so you make 30mn on a 1BN isk investment, with all the components you had to make and invention time it probably took a week or so to make it - you can get 30m from running and looting/salvaging AE L4.....
So inventing/manufacturing profits are virtually non-existant on T2 ships at the moment, and almost 95% cost is going straight to the T2 materials producers/sellers.
And of course the factor is that a lot of people had ships that they bought for 650m and are now worth nearly 1.1bn so they are cashing in and actually selling them below build cost, which probably also explains why the CNR jumped from 350m to 650m (the old golem price point) and golem sales fell off a cliff.
So the blame for T2 is simply the closing of the exploit, the huge jump in material costs and CCP not doing anything about it to readjust prices down to a sensible level i.e more moons or more profitable alchemy.
But i can tell you straight as a T2 builder/inventor I'm not making any isk out of the prices because I have at least 3 golem prints that aren't even worth the paper they are printed on at the moment.
Easiest fixes to ease the moon commodities market/T2 ship prices would be to either/or: - increase the base chance of ship invention somewhat - decrease the amount of datacores for ship invention - give a better me bonus ( read less negative to mildly positive [+1 max] ) with invention using decryptors - increase decryptor supply
Probably best to do it all and then to spread a little bit of love to each category.
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Kokura Nin
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Posted - 2009.09.26 13:45:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Kokura Nin on 26/09/2009 13:45:48 And as a side note, T1 module/ship production might not stay as simple either. IIRC some blog a while ago mentioned they might want to introduce a similar structure as T2 into the T1 market, being based on T1 minerals iirc.
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Johnathan Walker
Caldari Frontier Elements
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Posted - 2009.09.27 11:42:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Sidrat Flush
Originally by: Ctica Because the CCP dev who designed the production tree got way over excited about it and added way too many tiers in the production process for such a low tech level.
Oh hail thee o great one - you nailed it right on the head. The jump from T1 to T2 not only in terms of skills required (which isn't THAT great), but more in terms of logistics is way overboard.
Goodness knows what T5 will be like, although if T3 requires gas harvesting in some un-named system that's not even on the map, maybe in future we'll need to visit the gates of Hades and barter with our souls
Or better still someone elses soul.
LOL! Sorry, found this entertaining and wanted to express my thanks for an early morning chuckle.
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