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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.01 11:03:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Pottsey on 01/09/2009 11:06:00 Well it could be worth it. Let's say you train it now. Then when the WIS expansion hits and you need a bunch of Charisma skills to hire the shop keepers, run shops and all the other WIS stuff. Your year long new skill plan due to WIS could finish up to 8/17days ish faster due to Charisma adv5 then if you didn't have it. But it's a gamble.
I know having adv5's has but me well over 17days further along my skill plan in one year then where I would be without but for most people adv5 Charisma is not worth it.
For example my alt got adv5 Charisma years back when I didn't know what direction to take her in. Then this year and last she spent ages getting all sorts of gang assist and other Charisma skills. Due to already having adv5 Charisma the new skill plans finished much faster than without. She couldn't train the skills instead of adv5 Charisma as she didn't know she would need them. Then again it was a gamble as she might not have needed the Charisma skills this year.
You can save time on new skill plans and finish new skill plans with adv5 long before the payoff has been hit. Saying that few people end up better with Charisma.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.01 12:49:00 -
[2]
Facepalm as much as you like it just shows you don't understand what I am talking about, as what I said is correct. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.01 18:09:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Pottsey on 01/09/2009 18:10:31 If that was at me De'Veldrin there is nothing wrong with my understanding. The only people with a lack of understanding are the ones that don't understand what I say. adv5's can make a new skill plan finishe up to 17days ish faster per year in certain situations. Even if payoff is 2 years or longer a new skillplan can finish much faster in one year. At least sometimes. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.01 18:46:00 -
[4]
I was thinking that but wasn't sure. If that's the case I take back my post as I misunderstood. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.02 12:14:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Pottsey on 02/09/2009 12:14:39 Lilith Krell said said ôOP said, training Presence to V is currently not worth it for most players, as if you hadn't trained it, you would finish any skillplans incorporating charisma skills earlier than if you had,ö
That is very wrong some of the time. Many players do benefit from Presence V just like many do not. I have given many examples over the years where training Presence V has caused the new skill plan(s) to be much faster. You do not always finish skillplans incorporating charisma skills earlier if you didnÆt train Presence V. I only need to look at both my main and alt both of which would be behind the current skillplans if they didnÆt have Presence V.
Lilith Krell said ôusual it comes down to 'payoff' which you stubbornly refuse to factor in to your evaluation of 'worth',ö
I do factor in payoff. I just donÆt value it as much as others. To me finishing a new skill plan 17days faster per year is far more important then hitting payoff. When I finish a skillplan 17days faster in one year I donÆt care that I have not hit payoff yet. Not having adv5Æs would just make the skillplan take 17days longer per year at least in my and many other cases but not all cases.
DarthCaboose said ôCertain situations? True. But perhaps the words "Extremely Unlikely" are more appropriate.ö
No not extremely unlikely, pretty common. Your argument only works for the rare people with static never changing skill plans.
People often change and create new skillplans due to ingamv or even out of game events or just a change of mood. It can only takes one such event to change your skillplan with Charisma skills involved to make it worth while. Take Event X (Orca) my alt had zero use for gang assist skills but had Presence V. Due to the Orca she ended up getting millions SP with Charisma. No matter what the skillplan ends much faster with Presence V then Presence IV or lower. Later on Even Y happened and she needed Amour gang assist and command ships again Presence V made the new skillplan finish faster then Presence IV.
There is no I would have trained those Charisma skills instead of Presence V as I am sure you can see why. When an event changes your skillplan the skillplan starts at the same time if you had IV or V. So if the skillplan started at the same time due to Event like X and Y then Presence V is worth while. ItÆs a gamble but it pays off for a lot of players. Adv5 skills give you the adaptability to swap to new skillplans and end them much faster then the IV people. This alone makes them worthwhile. This is why I see all learning skills to av5 as worth while.
DarthCaboose said ôUnless someone wants to be truly well rounded and level up Corp Management, Leadership, Social and Trade skills then Presence V will not be to their benefit. ô
I donÆt agree. Just Leadership or just Social and I ended up finishing the plan faster with Presence V over IV. Not that it applies to everyone but its not rare.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.02 16:41:00 -
[6]
Xenofarion said "You don't value it? So you would still be happy if it would bring you 3 days less training time for one year although it needed 14 days to learn? " Yes in certain situations like in my examples where it saved me 17days per year and without it the skill plan takes 17days longer. In my case by year 2 I ended my plans 34days sooner due to adv5. By year 3 I ended my plans 51days sooner due to adv5. Granted that was with all adv5's not just Presence V. If the skillplan is static and you can train the skills instead of adv5 then until the payoff point no adv5 is not worth it. But a lot of the time you get new skillplans.
Not always but often you start a new skillplan due to a game rebalance corp or alliance change, change of mood or many other reasons. Most of there reasons will be on the same date/time no matter if you had adv4 or adv5 .When that happens no matter what adv5 is going finish the new plan faster. If you follow a new skillplan for one year then you end the plan around 17ish days faster with adv5s.
Xenofarion said "No, you are the one talking about static skill plans. You talked about one full year of training only skills which contain charisma - seriously, dude"
Ok I didn't explain it clear enough. If you skillplan never changes and is static for 3 years or whatever the end time is for payoff then you are better off without adv5's. If you have a new skillplan either due to an event in game or out of game, then your skillplan is none static and changing. One year of changing new skillplans or just a one year long new skillplan can make adv5 Charisma or the others worth it. Just 6 months of a new plan might make it worth it
Example1 Let's say on January the 1st there is massive game rebalance and you now hate missile. You spend one year on a new turret skillplan due to adv5's you finish the new skillplan 17ish days faster.
Example 2. A new ship comes out like the Orca you stop your old plan and start an Orca plan. The charisma skills you had no interest in are now of interest you spend one year training a new skillplan like command and other charisma skills. You now finish the new plan 17ish days faster due to adv5's.
Example3 Your corp moves to 0.0 you stop your old plan and make a new 0.0 based skillplan. You had no interest in cap ships in the past. You now train a new skilllplan with cap ships, gang skills, jump clone skills you now finish the first year of the new plan 17ish days faster due to adv5's.
You have not hit payoff but your new skillplan end much faster. That to me is the real value of adv5 learning skills. That is why I think it's often worth it to pursue Presence V and other V learning adv5 skills. Presence V being the biggest gamble of all the adv5's to get. If your sure your going to never try anything new and always use the same set of skills. Never add new skill to the plan then adv5 is not worth getting. All those people who got Presence V then later on ended up with a new unexpected plan with Charisma skills benefited.
Xenofarion said "And now you say it's worth training? Who the hell trains one year Charisma-primary-skills only?" Perhaps your alliance is moving to 0.0 and you had no interested in those skill until the move, no plan to train them beforhand. You might want to run some research projects; you're bound to want some Jump clones. You're the fleet booster and you do all sorts from mining ops, to running different style of fleets. All that could easily hit with charisma skills 213days training with adv5. It would take 9 days longer with adv4. Now add on some none Charsims skills to do with cap ships to go along with your fleet boosts and if you had the other adv5 skills in one year your new plan ends 17ish days faster. 9days faster due to Presence V and 8 days faster due to the other adv5 learnings. Ending a skillplan 17days sooner is worth it in my mind.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.02 16:41:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Pottsey on 02/09/2009 16:45:14
Xenofarion said " I think Op is right and that you just try to justify your (almost) wasted SP "
Yeah really wasted all that SP. If I had followed advice and not got adv5 I would be around 68days (Estimated) behind my current skill path. 68days ahead in my skill path sounds like a big mistake I made and need to justify. 68days more SP in a plan is almost wasted SP.
Lilith Krell said "Facepalm... (and you really do deserve it this time)"
Please explain why, as far as I can see what I said is correct. The new one year skillplan that started due to event X/Y finishes 17days in faster with adv5 leaning. Without adv5 leaning the skillplan due to event X/Y takes 17ish days longer. There is nothing wrong with that. It's true if you do not understand it you need the Facepalm not me.
Siona Windweaver said "There's no point in arguing with Pottsey about anything. It doesn't matter if he's right or wrong. He will always ignore what you are saying and continue repeating"" That is a complete lie. I do listen and I would stop if I was wrong and someone pointed out where I was wrong and was correct in what they said. I do not ignore people, I sometimes miss the odd post here and there but I do not ignore.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.02 18:24:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Pottsey on 02/09/2009 18:29:54 Xenofarion said " The whole thread is about Presence V yes/no and not about advanced learnings in general."
Sorry I sort of went off track didnt I! I thought it would help explain how Presence V can be worthwhile before payoff has been hit and then got side tracked. Let me attempt it again. Even if you only look at Presence V my skillplan ended many days faster than if I had Presence IV so you're still wrong about mostly useless SP and me trying tojustify. Ending a plan many days faster is worthwhile in my mind. I never see a Skillplan I want taking longer as better.
Xenofarion " This is what i said, this is what i proved and this is what you obviously didn't get as you read my post"
I do understand your post. You have not proved Presence V is always a waste as you ignored all my examples of when it works very well, you never proved my examples wrong. Look its very simple logic if you oversimplify it to the following. Does my skill plan end faster with Presence V. If yes then Presence V was worth it. If not then Presence V was not worth it. I proved skillplans can sometimes end faster with presence V in one year or less. In those cases Presenvce V is worth it. In all other cases Presence V is not worth it. It's not a flat out case of Presence V never worth it like you seem to suggest.
Estel Arador said " Pottsey's long posts are all about a small minority of players." "This is peculiar reasoning, but note that even if it would be valid reasoning (which is debatable) it only works in this specific scenario." It also works in other scenarios as I explained. Not all though. People do switch their training focus. If they do and if the new plan has a reasonable amount of Charisma skills then presence V is worth it in one year or less. That's all I am saying. It's not a small minority of players switching skillplans is something many players do. Many player will switch skill plans and switch skill focus.
Estel Arador said "Then later, once those are finished, that person thinks "geez, I would love to have charisma based kills". He then saves a few days on those skills and since the learning skills were trained when nothing else was considered a useful option, Pottsey refuses to take them into account with the pay-off."
How many times do I have to point out it's not just for the people who have nothing else to train. It's also the people who have a role change which leads to a skill focus change. It's not just nothing else was considered a useful option so train Presence V in case you might need it.
Instead of training something you need, you train Presence V and so you arer worse off at first. After Presence V you then follow the skillplan you need you still worse off. Later on you have a change of skill focus the skills you would have trained instead of Presence V you no longer need or are now of a low value. But you now need some Charmsia skills due to a change of in game role, now you're better off. You no longer focus on your old role but the new role so you want to be days better at the new role. This doesn't happen to everyone but it happens a lot. Unless you think people dont change roles, dont change skill focues and dont stop doing old roles. Many players train Presence V and other Adv5 as a gamble in case they change skill focus. Many do change skill focus and those are the ones that end up better off. Many do not change skill focues and end up worse off. But its not a small minority of players either way.
Estel Arador said " Pottsey is talking about the specific situation where someone thinks "geez, I have no idea what to train now, I'll just train the advanced learning skills to Presence V". That's only half the story. It also applies to some people who do have things left to train.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.03 10:56:00 -
[9]
Lilith Krell said ôNo, it is very right most of the time, when you factor in the last part of what I said; "by the virtue of starting the plan earlier", which I noticed you decided to miss out when quoting me.ö
As I have said many times in the past and I believe in this thread when you can start the plan early yes IV is better, I never disagreed with that. What I disagree is that often you cannot start the plan early. I gave lots of examples where you cannot start the plan early with IV. So IV is much slower. ThatÆs the bit you seem to be disagreeing with. Your keep saying but IV is faster ignoring that IV cannot start the plan before V at least in the examples I used.
Lilith Krell said ôIf you only trained it to IV, you would be 632235 skill points ahead in any plans new or old having changed direction or not.ö
Sometimes yes if you can start the new plan instead of training Presence V. But often the case is like the examples I gave. You would be many skillpoints behind in the new plans with IV in those examples. How can you say new plans would be behind thatÆs just so wrong. Sure you old plan would be behind.
Lilith Krell said ôYou have to look at a character from it's creation until now, regardless of remaps, direction changes etc - if you look at the total training times vs usefull (ie non-learning) skills you will never make the time back training Presence to Vö
My character is a perfect example of how that is sometimes wrong. Without presence V I would not and could not have many of the skills I have now. Even before payoff has been hit with Presence IV I would not have the skills I have now. Yes I could have trained other skills instead of Presence V but that would mean I would lose the extra charisma skills I have now.
Lilith Krell said ôYou cannot look at a skillplan out of of context and say "my attributes are higher therefore I train faster so it was worth it" Sure I can say my attributes are higher so I train faster its worth it. Just look at T3 and my T3 skillplan which ended faster yet your logic says I am not better off. My attributes are higher, my skkillplan was and still are faster so it was worth it.
I am saying the new role I am doing now with the new skill focus is faster and better with presence V so presence V has been worth while. If I am better at what I want to do now due to presence V then presence V has been worth it even if payoff hasnÆt been hit. If I am not better then presence IV was the better option.
Look at it from my point of view. If I am further along my skill plan, better at my current in game role then how has it not been worth it? You keep saying its not worth it so explain. How is being ahead not worth it?
Your basically saying being behind on my current skillplan, being worse at my current in game role due to being further behind the skillplan with Presence IV is better. ThatÆs just crazy to me.
Lilith Krell said ôShow me a skillplan (a realistic one) that finishes 17days faster with presence V trained factoring in the time it took to train it to V.ö I already have done more then once in this thread. Or did you want the full detailed plan with every single finishing time?
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.03 11:04:00 -
[10]
Xenofarion said ôI did prove that it is next to useless. Maybe you didn't understand, I will repeat it:ö
I do understand the problem is you ignored all the examples I gave that showed you when you are wrong. Ignoring examples that prove you wrong do no make you right. I showed lots of examples when Presence was far from useless. Just because you showed one example when it is useless that does not mean its always useless. In one example a 6month plan that ended 6days faster with Presence V. How is that not worthwhile?
Xenofarion said ôBut if training Presence V takes more time than you save after this, your skillplan does take longer in total. It's a fact.ö
No it not a fact, ok it is sometimes but not always. I gave examples of Presence V being faster. You have yet to prove Presence IV is faster all the time. I do agree sometimes IV is faster but not in the examples I gave.
In the exmples I gave Presence V trains the skill plan faster unless you have some sort of magic crystal ball that lets you start the plan before you know you need it, or start the plan before the event that caused you to make a new plan, or start the skills before they came out. For example how can I start the plan before I knew about the Orca? ItÆs impossible. The plan starts when I heard about the Orca and find out its useful. The plan starts on that date no matter if I have Presence V or IV. Your basically saying I could have trained the skillplan instead of Presence V back when I didnÆt know I needed the skill plan. ThatÆs double impossible in my case as the skills where not even out back then.
Say an event makes you start a new skill plan and new role focus. Perhaps the event is your alliance moves to 0.0 on the 5th of March or you find out your moving on that date. Your new skillplan to do with 0.0 starts on the 5th of March. You cannot somehow train the plan before the event that caused you to start a new plan. If a game rebalance happens like the last missile change you might make a new skillplan. You cannot start that new skill plan before the event that trigged you to make a new skillplan. You cannot train a new role and skill focus before those skills come out either. These are the type if things that make Presence V and other adv5's worthwhile. If I followed you advice I would be well over a week behind my current skillplan with Presence V alone. You say its useless, I say being over a week ahead is usefull.
Xenofarion said ôEven if you save a bit of time over the years(which is already hard to achieve), how much will it be? 2 minutes? 1 hour?ö
It can be as little as that or it can be days moving into weeks saved. In my example after 6months around 6 days where saved on the skill plan. Ending the plan 6days faster is worth while to me even if I took 10days or more to train presence V. I still ended the new plan I need faster.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.03 11:53:00 -
[11]
So Lilith Krell I take it you think being worse at your new role is better!! You are face palming me as I ended up better at my new skill focus and new role. That just shows your complete lack of understanding.
Your face palming me as I can do what I want/need to do 6days sooner due to presence V over IV. How is that event remotely face palm worthy?
Being better at your current in game role is not bad. That fact you think so means you should be face palming yourself.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.03 12:12:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Pottsey on 03/09/2009 12:12:15 4 days behind but the plan I need and want ends 6 days sooner. I donÆt care if I am behind by your logic as ingme my current role is 6 days ahead. Like I said before how can being better at my current role not be worthwhile? IV would just mean I am 6days behind in my current role. Thats worse in my mind.
Unfortunately I cannot see the pic on dinner break at work. All I get is a red cross and the filename.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.03 14:41:00 -
[13]
Xenofarion said ôI don't give examples. I proved that you are wrong. With mathmatics. I don't need to deal with your examples, because they are inferior to my proof.ö Inferior to your proof what rubbish. Theory does not beat real life examples. Your maths is theory my examples are based on real examples. If a real life example happens a lot and your mathematics/proof says itÆs impossible your mathematics are wrong. My examples prove your mathematics are missing important bits of information. I gave lots of different situations where your mathematics says a person is worse off but in actual fact there skill plan is ahead making them better off. Your math says the skillplan can never end faster, I gave examples where the skill plan did end faster that means your math is flawed or missing something or your useing the math wrong. Its a fact that skill plans can end faster so if your maths says they cannot your math is being done wrong.
Your mathematics never proved what I said was wrong in fact your mathematics are flawed or the way you use the math is flawed. Your mathematics ignore and donÆt count all the times when you cannot realistically start the skillplan early with IV. That means every single time you cannot start the skillplan early with IV your mathematics fail.
The only time your mathematics work are the times when you can start the skillplan early with IV. But I never had a problem with that I always agreed with that. What I am talking about are all the times which are common that you cannot start the new plan early with IV. Once you adjust your maths to not start the plan early with IV then the maths agree with me.
Xenofarion said ôGuess now which point view is more based on science and which is more Voodoo than anything else ö You call that science! This is what youÆre doing. Your math says Presence V is useless and skillplans are never faster. I point out common situations that happen a lot where presence is useful and skillplans are faster. You ignore those common situations and say your math is ok. Its not good science to ignore all the times you math fail and then go, I am right. Yeah letÆs ignore all the time the math doesnÆt work and just say it works 100%. Real good science there you have.
Xenofarion said ôNO! WRONG! You don't get it, see below.ö No itÆs not wrong and I do get it. YouÆre ignoring the facts again and are the one who doesnÆt get it. Due to Presence V and the Orca game change I ended a skill plan 6days early. In that 6days I maxed out one T3 skill. With Presence IV I would not have even started the T3 skill, yet alone maxed it out. So I am not wrong. You say the skillplan cannot be faster due to Presence V. I just showed you how it can sometimes. There is no realistic possible way to follow the same skill path and have the T3 skill with Presence IV faster then Presence V. This alone proves your wrong.
Like I said before if I followed advice from people like you with such poor understanding I would be months behind where I am at now in my current skill plan. In fact right now I am maxed out at T3. If I followed your presence IV advice I donÆt think I would have even have started the T3 plan at the point that V had axed it out. You keep saying I am not ahead but youÆre ignoring the fact that am ahead at my current plan. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.03 14:49:00 -
[14]
Xenofarion said ôWhen you are talking about "skill plans", you mean "little parts of your skill plan". This is your problem. You are thinking in a way too small scale.ö No matter the scale I am ahead at my current in game roles and skill plans. If I look at a short 6month scale, 1 year, 2 year , 3 year or 5 year I am further along the current plans. When I talk about skillplans I donÆt mean little parts I mean the current active skill plan, current game role and skill focus. ThatÆs all that matters. So what if I am behind at some old invalid no longer active skillplan. What matters is I am ahead at my current active skillplan and ahead at my current in game role.
Xenofarion said ôcontrary to your highly specialized examples. All you do is constructing unrealistic examples which in 99% of the cases don't occurö ItÆs not unrealistic itÆs common and very realistic as itÆs taken from real players. What is unrealistic is your mathematics that assumes people never change skill focus, never change in game roles. Do you really think only 1% of players have a skill focus change or game role change?
Xenofarion said ôI bet, you wouldn't buy lottery tickets for 1,000,000 USD and than shouting "Hell yeah, I won 6 $!! Don't you get it man?! Of course it was worth it! 6 $!"ö That hardly applies to what I am talking about. Its more I move from go karts to F1 racing due to adv5Æs I am worse at gokarts then with IV but I pick up F1 racing better then IV. You are going it werenÆt worth it you would have been better with IV which is slower and worse at your current focus of F1 while being better at go gokarts which I no longer do. While I think I am better off with at F1 racing my current focus and my old focus I no longer do is not as important.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.03 15:54:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Pottsey on 03/09/2009 15:56:36 Lilith Krell I can say the same for you. I am using logic the problem is every time something disagrees with you then you just ignore it. You have not used one bit of logic or math to show where I am wrong. A lot of what you said like "it still wasn't worth it, as you put 632235 sp's into a skill that you could have put into those very charisma skills and still have finished them earlier." is just flat out wrong. Likewise you don't seem to be able to understand the skill plan can end 6days or more sooner due to V in 6 months. I never once ignored what you said and I even agreed with you in areas. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.04 09:59:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Pottsey on 04/09/2009 10:01:26 Xenofarion said ô Your real life examples are either wrong or interpreted wrongààGive me a proof which says that mine is wrong and I will admit that you are right ö Very short of time. I have not read all your posts and will read it later. As I said before yours isnÆt wrong all the time its only wrong for lots of situations but its right for lots of others.
Lets role back to when the Orca came out as a surprise to many. Lots of people did not know about it and it caused a lot of people to change skill focus and game focus roles. People stopped skillplans and made new skillplans and did months of Charisma training based on those skills. Those with Presence V finished the skillplan days before versions of them self with Presence IV. According to you the Presence IV finished the plans first but thatÆs impossible as that requires the presence IV people to start the skillplan before they know they need it and before the know about the Orca.
How is ending that skill plan days faster with V over IV not some sort of advantage? How can IV possibly finish the skill plan first? How can IV possibly start the new skill plan before V? How is this example wrong or interpreted wrong?
In my case the time I saved from Presence V meant I got a head start on my T3 skill plan. How is that not an advantage? I hope this all makes sense itÆs a little rushed.
EDIT: Xenofarion said ôI never said that it is impossible for Presence V to pay off, I just said that in the very most cases it is stupid to train this.ö Which is what I donÆt agree with, far more people benefit then you say. Yes not everyone would benefit but a great many do. You just need to look at when the Orca came out to see the large number of people who did or would have benefited from Presence V. That was a massively sold ship with a record breaking number built for a new ship. Lots of people who followed your style of advice would have ended worse off with there new game play role and skill plan taking days or week longer. This is just one example out of many where your advice is wrong for a large amount of people.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.04 12:20:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Pottsey on 04/09/2009 12:22:36 Xenofarion said ôSo you need to train 500,000/66 = 7,575.76 hours = 316 days just to pay the skill off - until this point you don't even have an advantage, you have a loss until then.ö I only have a loss in payoff. But my skillplan ends much sooner. As I said before you have yet to explain how ending a 6month skill plan 6 days sooner with V over IV is not an advantage. You keep skipping over the fact the skill plan ends sooner and saying ending sooner is not an advantage.
Your math says I donÆt have an advantage but the logic of my skill plan ending sooner by days says I have an advantage. How is ending my skill plan sooner not some sort of advantage? You math has not explained this. So your math does not prove me wrong.
Xenofarion said ôThe problem is now, that your F1 is just 3.3% faster than my Go-Kart - oh noes!... Now you need to race one full year with me just to be in my position.ö ThatÆs wrong if gokarts and F1 represent two different Eve roles. LetÆs say gokarts represents T2 turrets and F1 represent Orca and gang assist. When we start the F1 training at the same time and you cannot start training before me then in the F1 race you are behind. I donÆt need to race for one year to be in your position. Right from day 1 I am ahead of you and getting further and further ahead in F1. Sure I am behind at the gokart role and when we race in gokarts you are ahead. But in the F1 race I am ahead and pulling further ahead. There is no waiting one year.
As you say my F1 is 3.3% faster. In an F1 race you cannot bring your gokart you have to bring your 3.3% slower F1. This applies to the game when you cannot start the training early with IV.
Or another way to say it I am 3.3% ahead of you in the Orca role but 5% or what ever behind you in the T2 turret role. But as my current game role is Orca I am better off like this. I am 5% worse of at what I donÆt need right now and 3.3% better off at what I do need.
Of course this doesnÆt apply to the situations when you can start the F1 training before me. Then you are better off at F1 and gokarts but I donÆt disagree with that. I am only talking about the many times when you cannot start training before me.
Xenofarion said ôIf you will train less than a year of skills, you make a loss, because you paid more for Presence V than you benefit from it afterwards, can't you understand this?ö Of course I understand I am saying in many situations it doesnÆt matter. What matters is am I better or worse at my current in game role? If Presence V makes me better at my current in game role then I am better off with Presence V. Do you not understand that? Do you understand I can have an overall loss due to presence V but still be ahead at my current ingame role and head at the skillplan?
Like I said if I pay 10days for presence V but end my new skillplan on the 5th of March with presence V or the 10th March with Presence IV then I have still benefited from presence V even though I have 5 days loss. I still ended the plan 5 days early meaning in that area I am 5 days ahead or 5days advantage although still at an overall 5 days loss. But it doesnÆt matter I am at an overall loss, as at the role I want I am days ahead. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.04 12:21:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Pottsey on 04/09/2009 12:21:03 Xenofarion said ôWhat I proved is, that you need to train Skills which have Charisma as primary for one full year(!) to get them as fast as someone who just has Presence IV.ö Yes but that only applies if or when you can train the skills early with IV. I never disagreed with that. What I am saying is often you cannot train the skills early with IV so you do not have to train for one full year to get them as fast as someone with Presence IV.
If due to an event you start a new skill focus then you cannot start the skillplan early with IV. For example if something happens on the 5th of March to make me change skill focus and change skill plans I cannot on the 1st of March start that new skill focus and new skillplan as I have no idea until the 5th about the change. Starting the skill plan early with IV would require some sort of magic crystal ball telling me whatÆs going to happen on the 5th. Sure sometimes you can start early and then I do agree IV is better but lots of the time you switch skill focues due to an event so IV cannot start training before that event.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.04 16:57:00 -
[19]
Xenofarion said " This is exactly the lottery example i brought. You pay a massive price to get a small advantage and then cheer loudly what a great win you made, just seeing the $6 and ignoring the $1,000,000 spent. This is ridiculous." That's a stupid way of putting it. It's more like I get maxed out at the Orca 14days before presence IV. I get to play with the T3 gangs assist 14days sooner. I get to maxed at T3 14days sooner. I am cheering loudly and playing with fun new toys while you are going but you're not at an advantage you are worse off. You should have taken presence IV and which would not have got to T3 yet.
"If I take out the Learning skill, you saved 2.6 days (about 3%), but you still spent 14 days on Presence V before. Get the point?!" Yes I get that. Well I took mine to V and got fleet command as well but that doesn't matter. Even with your smaller skillplan the above skillplan ends 12.9days sooner with Presence V. That means I can then spend 12.9 days on my T3 skillplan while I would still be training the first plan with Presence IV. Do you get how that is an advantage? With Presence V I am going around with Plan A maxed out and 12days into Plan B. While with Presence IV I have not even started Plan A yet alone got 12days into it. Yet you are telling me there is no advantage.
Xenofarion said "You don't use logic, you use blinkers. YES, your particular skill plan seems to end sooner, but in total, it is way slower. Just get this into your head. I just can't believe how you can be so narrow-minded, sorry." I am using logic you're the one who is not. I am not being narrow minded you are. I already said its way slower in payoff teams. I don't need to get it into my head I already agreed to that many times. As I said many times overall I am running at a loss but at the in game role I want to do I am way ahead. That all that matters, the current in game role. If the current in game role is better then you are better off.
The problem is you cannot see the basic logic of ending a skillplan 14days faster due to Presence V is an advantage of some sorts. Maxing out the skill plan with Presence V 14 days before Presence IV is an advantage. You keep saying it's not. So perhaps you should look at your own logic not go on about my logic.
Anyone saying ending a skillplan 14days sooner is not an advantage of some sorts has faulty logic. Flying around maxed out at the role you want to do 14 days sooner is an advantage over flying around not maxed out.
Xenofarion said "I, too, am extremely sure that you will be "teh r0xXor" if you have the new skills (if there are new Charisma-skills to come) 3 hours faster than others with Presence IV! " 3 hours shows you next to zero understanding. If another batch of Charisma skills come out like leadership I will end the skillplan around 20 to 30 days sooner due to Presence V. 20 to 30days is a long way from you so called 3 hours advantage. If the new skills are like Leadership and if I only train half the new skills that's 14days sooner I get the new skills over Presence IV.
Xenofarion said "And even then you would just save just a few hours on your T3 plan because Charisma is used so damn rarely." That also shows how little you understand this. Presence V let me start my T3 skill plan weeks early, which in turn means I finished the T3 weeks earlier then if I had Presence IV. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.04 17:05:00 -
[20]
Xenofarion said " It isn't cause you have spent time on Presence V before T3 came out. If you would have trained some other support skills instead, you would be way better off." If I had trained some other support skill instead both my Orca plan and take T3 plan would be weeks behind. How is being weeks behind what I want to do in game now better off? The amount of time Presence V saved me allowed me to almost max out T3. How is having not even started T3 yet, as I am still on my last plan due to Presence IV better?
Xenofarion said " Even if they are so crazy to train Warfare Link Specialist to V and even if noone had any leadership-skills before, they would just save 2.6 days in three months, according to the example above." You really don't understand it do you. First it's not crazy for a fleet booster to get Warfare Link Specialist to V. I also have fleet command. The skillplan with fleetcomand lvl 4 is 259days with Presence IV and 245days with Presence V. That means with Presence V I ended the skillplan 14 days sooner than Presence IV. That means I can get 14days into my next skill plan which happened to be T3 while Presence IV is still catching up. That is a massive advantage due to Presence V. I saved 14days on that skill plan which allowed me to get 14days further along the next skillplan.
Put it another way Presence V is flying around with max gang assist in a T3 curser with max T3 skills. Presence IV is just ending gang assist and starting the first T3 skills.
How is that not an advantage? That is a real skill plan less then a year long that benefited massively due to Presence V. Are you really telling me that above is not and advantage of some sorts? Having lots of skills with Presence V that I would not have with Presence IV is not and advantage?
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.04 17:10:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Pottsey on 04/09/2009 17:13:23 Ancharra Jaram said " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost If you read and understand the examples given. , you will understand the points others are making." I do understand. The problem is the other do not understand this is a game. Being better at what you want to do now is all that matters. Being more efficient at what you want to do in game now is what matters. Xenofarion advice goes against this.
If you are running at a so call SP loss but better and more efficient at your in game role you are really better off. Not worse off like Xenofarion say. He is basically saying being less efficient and worse at your current in game role is better. Surly you see how I cannot agree to that.
EDIT: Now matter how I look at it being better and more efficient at your current ingame role with a SP loss is way better then no SP loss but less efficient and worse at your current in game role. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.05 07:17:00 -
[22]
DarthCaboose said "If anything, I have tried to be extremely impartial with my testing and tried to show the results in a way that would easily showcase the differences for JUST PRESENCE V." The problem with the so called impartial testing and post was it only showed presence V in the worst light. You didn't make any mention of all the times Presence V can be a massive benefit. That is misleading as advice goes. Your testing to be fair should have shown Presence V in both the worst case and best case. Then people can make their own mind up if it's worth getting or not. Telling people when Presence V is of little use and never telling them when it is of massive use is bad advice. I can see you meant the best but I just cannot agree with the way you did it as you failed to show the real advantages and differences for just presence V.
DarthCaboose said " But I do hope that the conclusion I drew is considered to be reasonable and a possible guideline for the newer players who want to know what the benefits and disadvantages of training this skill are." I don't think it's reasonable as I showed if I and many others followed your advice we would by far worse off at our current ingame roles. Not just a small amount but a large amount worse off. If the advice makes us worse at our current in game role it's not reasonable advice.
DarthCaboose said " Hell, if I were one such person who did want to become a super awesome Squad Leader / Trader / Mission Runner / Corp Manager, then please extol the wonderful virtues of Presence V!" As I showed I only had to do leadership for Presence V to give a massive 14day advantage. If I added Trader / Mission Runner / Corp Manager I would have ended months sooner. This is not about egos at stake. This is about giving the full advice to new players not half. New players are likly to change ingame roles over the first and second year of play. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.05 10:35:00 -
[23]
Estel Arador said "As I said before, your idea would only apply to people who have nothing 'useful' to train for when they take their advanced skills to V" As I pointed out before that is wrong. If I am a new player and I had something useful to train but got a advanced skills to V or just Presence to V then later on I have a change of focus towards the Orca at first I would be worse off but once I had that change of focus I would be better off. The change of focus would mean I am better off and more efficient at my current new in game role due to advanced skills to V but worse off and less efficient at my now old game role. IV would just be 14days behind at the current role that matters.
Sure if you don't have a change of focus you are just worse off and you should have trained something useful instead of adv5's. But many people do have a change of focus. For example I am a new player who gets adv5 right at the start. One year into the game I meet some new friends; the friends get me interested in Stealth ships. adv5's let me train stealth ships based skills much faster than IV. I max out stealth ships over week before I would with IV. One and a half years into the game and my current ingame role is better with V then with IV.
See I you do not always need to have nothing usfull to train before you get a benefit from Presence V or adv5's. I hope you can see how in the above example I end up less efficient at my old role but more efficient and better off at my new role all before payoff has been hit.
Estel Arador said " You read that wrong, IV finishes 12.9 days before V." That's impossible at least in the examples we are talking about. Both started training at the same time as both started the training path due to the Orca game event. We were talking about changing skill focus due to events and ending plans early due to V. If an event causes you to create a new skillplan you cannot possiblely start that skillplan before the event that caused you to change the skillplan. If something happens on the 5th of March to make me change skillplans. I cannot on the 1st of March start the new skillplan as I don't know what's going to happen on the 5th unless I have a magic crystal ball. So both V and IV start the new skillplan on the 5th of March and V finsihes 12.9days before IV. Things like this are the real advantage of learning skills. When something makes you change skillplans you can end the new skillplan much faster with V then IV.
Sure when you can start early with IV then IV ends the plan sooner. But often IV cannot start the plan early.
Estel Arador said " For players less than 3 years of age, you could've been better and more efficient now if you hadn't trained the advanced learning skills to V" Not in the examples I gave. Advance learning V is more efficient and further along the skill path at the current ingame roles in well under 3 years. Take my alt, there is no realistic way whatsoever that IV could be more efficient at my ingame role and further along the skillplan then V at flying an Orca and T3.
I am not saying that adv5 and Presence V is always better or always worthwhile. Only that in many situations it is better. In many others it is not better.
A better real example. Just last week the corp I am in fall to bits. My new group of friends amour tank more than shield so I need to retrain armour gang assist and get an Amarr command ship. adv5's and Presence V let me change skill focus much faster and get those skills days if not weeks before IV. There is no way IV could start training early as it was the corp falling to bits that trigged a new skillplan.
Estel Arador said " In any other case they will be worse off with advanced V (until the standard way of payoff calculation kicks in)." I proved that wrong by showing how you can be better at your current in game role. How can being better at your current ingame role be classed as worse off? ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.05 11:48:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Pottsey on 05/09/2009 11:48:45 Estel Arador said "however you seem to apply it selectively to only those points after an unplanned and unexpected change. In your case you prefer being guaranteed to be worse off for a possibility of being slightly better off at some undetermined point in the future." I only say you're better off after the unplanned and unexpected change as it's very clear that before that point you are worse off. What you say in that quote is mostly correct, I always said it was a gamble and that at first you are worse off. Well you say slightly better off I disagree with that. It's not slightly is can be massively better off.
Yes it is a possibility at an undetermined point in the future. But past experience has shown that although you don't know the point it's got a high chance of happening. Have you never had a massive change of role or skill focus before? Have you never massively redone your skill plan? I bet if you ask around a large amount of players have.
The reason I don't like you math payoff way is it misleading. You ignore the high chance of a skill focus change happening and that is just the point when adv5 skills give a large advantage. In my experience you're more likely to have a skill focus change then not. That means you're more likely to benefit from adv5 skills then not. Out of time will re read psot 54 later.
The way I see it adv5 is it lets you adapt better to an unknown but high chance of happing point in the future. Ignoring this point and using payoff is a bad way of doing it as although we do not know if the point will happen it is not rare. Its happend to me about 5 times this year alone. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.05 15:28:00 -
[25]
Ok I see your point of view. I do agree that that you have to invest weeks or months when you could be doing something to boost efficiency at what you doing at the moment. But I don't agree it's only worth it if you have nothing else to train. Well it is sometimes only worth it when you have nothing else to train. It's a gamble.
For example I could have trained T2 siege missiles to level 5 instead of adv5 but then the missile Stealth bomber rebalance happened and those skill points turned 100% useless ( I don't have any other missiles ships) and I needed to retrain for Torps. But what happened is I trained adv5. The Stealth bomber rebalance hit and I can train torps faster without having wasted maxing out siege missiles which are now useless. One big gamble, it might not have paid off but it did. I find things like this happen a lot. So even though I had something useful to train I still ended up better off training adv5 instead of something that would have made me more efficiency at what I was doing at that moment.
Eve is always in flux and adv5 let you change to that flux which is why I like it. But it is all a big gamble off do you want more efficiency now or less efficiency now with a possibility of better efficiency later with for sure better efficiency after payoff. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.07 06:04:00 -
[26]
Sorry I made a mistake. What I should have said is I had trained T2 Cruise Specialization but not even basic Torp skills. Then found myself in a situation where Cruise was 100% useless for me and I needed to retrain for torps Specialization. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.07 19:06:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Pottsey on 07/09/2009 19:16:29 DarthCaboose said "Good grief. Please tell me you understand the point of counterexamples!" Your counterexamples do not counter my examples they run alone side it. Your examples are not best case, you ignored best case. Just because you showed a worse example then mine it does not mean my examples are wrong. It just means your examples are not best case. Changing skill focus is best case for ending skillplans sooner with Presence V.
The problem is you are not looking at how people play the game. People change skill focus and it's when you change skill focus that Presence V is a massive advantage making your skill plans end much faster. Your advice makes no mention of this which is why I say it's not reasonable and not a good guideline for newer players. You dont mention all the times people benefit from Presence V without training all skills to do with it.
Good advice is to explain payoff like you did and also explain how skill focus changes could mean you can end your skillplan weeks sooner with Presence V just on half off leadership.
You are right about the ultimate worst case. I was wrong in saying yours is the worst.
DarthCaboose said " I'm sure you can see why this is a BEST CASE scenario;" That is not best case. Best case if when you already have Presence V and cannot start the skillplan early with IV. That is when you end the skillplan much faster. This is something that happens to a lot of players.
For example a new player gets Presence V right from the start. 8 months later he decides to give Leadrship a go after joining a new corp who needs a command pilot. He ends the skillplan 12 to 24 days sooner than if he had Presence IV. That's just with leadership. Your advice makes no mention of large benefits like this.
DarthCaboose said "The ~14 days was representative of training ALL THOSE SKILLS to Level 5: Leadership / Trader / Mission Runner / Corp Management, not just Leadership. I encourage you to play around with EveMon and you'll see that I'm right." Eve mon agrees with me. The numbers do match up if you read and understood my posts. I only needed to train half of leadership to end my plan 12days sooner with Presence V for the reasons I gave before. Do I really have to explain it all over again?
EDIT: I am not saying your numbers are wrong. I am saying often they do not apply like with skill focus changes.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.10 09:57:00 -
[28]
Steel Wraith said ôMathematically, if the OPs analysis is correct, you won't currently save any significant time by training Presence V. I think we can all agree there.ö
If he was correct I would agree but he is not fully correct. Presence V I ended my skill plan around 24+days sooner over Presence IV which is a significant time and that was just on leadership.
I think we can all agree ending a skillplan 24days sooner is an significant amount of time.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.11 11:33:00 -
[29]
DarthCaboose said Hey Pottsey. I'm guessing you just like arguing for the sake of arguing, No I am not. I am trying to improve your advice and correctly help new players. You said "Please let me know if you find something to the contrary!" I found something to the contrary that makes Presence V very worthwhile making you end just leadership skills 24+days faster than Presence IV. I am only trying to help new players decide if Presence V is worth it.
DarthCaboose said " Pottsey, I have read through your posts and you do make sense when you talk about Pilot A and Pilot B wanting to change skill tracks to something with more Charisma-related skills in there. Of course, assuming the starting conditions you stated are correct, then it is perfect mathematical sense to assume that conclusion." It seems basic enough not sure how else I can explain it. Also I am ill today with a bit of a fuzzy head so anything I try and explain will most likely be less clear than normal. Which part of new players changing skill focus don't you understand? Surely it's clear that players change skill focus. Game events can make you switch to a new skillplan focused on Charisma.
DarthCaboose said " Who I am trying to talk to, though are people who have NOT YET TRAINED Presence V; the guys who are looking at this Presence V skill and wondering if the week and a half of training will do them any good" I am talking about the same people. As I demonstrated those people can end up finishing there skill plans much faster with Presence V over Presence IV if they have a skill focus change.
DarthCaboose said " I'm sorry Pottsey, but I don't see where you got that bogus number of only training half your Leadership skills up to level 5 and saving THAT MUCH TIME thanks to the sole 1.1 attribute increase that is Presence V (along with Learning V); especially considering that extreme example of marginal benefit I showed above." It is not bogus just because you fail to understand it. Take this example a new player stats on January 1st and gets Presence V early on. 6 months later he joins a corp that corp asks him to get the following plan as they need a command pilot and the new player wants to have a use in the corp. Leadership 5, Fleet Command 5, Mining Director 5, Mining Foreman 5, Warfare Link Specialist 5, Wing Command 5.
With Presence V, Charisma 19 and Willpower 15 the new plan takes 219 days 19hours. With Presence IV, Charisma 18 and Willpower 15 the newplan takes 228 days 22hours
As you can see if the new player followed your advice his plan would take 9days 3hours longer. If he got Presence V his plan ends 9days 3hours days faster over Presence IV. Add in say Siege Specialist and it goes over 9days sooner. Add in all the leadership skills and I believe your 24day sooner with V. All due to changing skill focus.
DarthCaboose said " Once again, I encourage you to go back and read what I posted in the opening post..." I ask the same as you. As you Cleary do not understand my posts. I still do not agree with the opening post. Its misleading advice. You are talking about payoff. I am not, what I am talking about are ending skillplans weeks faster but having not yet hit payoff with presence V. Your advice is misleading new players on the vuale of Presence V by only giving half the facts.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.11 11:41:00 -
[30]
DarthCaboose said " However, the key issue that you do not seem to be understanding is that I am NOT looking at this particular example." I understand that. The problem is you should be looking at that example. Your giving advice that Presence V is not with it based on your example. But you're not looking at the other examples when Presence V is very worthwhile. How are new players meant to know when Presence V is worth getting and when its not if you advice never mentions some of the bigger benefits to Presence V?
DarthCaboose said "Like training every skill relying on Charisma in the game? Then Presence V'll save you some time. Otherwise, it's probably not worth it." I proved that wrong at least I proved its wrong some of the time.
DarthCaboose said "but let's expand my little experiment so that ALL variables are accounted for!" You're still not accounting for the variable of changing skill focus. Once you account for that variable Presence V gets much more worthwhile.
Your experiment always has the skillplan starting early with Presence IV over V. But in game often that is not what happens.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.11 19:48:00 -
[31]
" Your argument, once again, concludes that training Presence V has no cost." How many times do I have to say that's wrong? My argument is not that Presence V has no cost. Presence V has a cost. My argument isthe cost is secondary to the your current in game role. What matters at least from my point of view is the current skill focus and current skill role. Being 12+ days, 17+ days or 24+ days better at your current role or whatever timeframe is what matters. Being more efficient at your current in game role is what matters.
The cost for Presence V doesn't matter if your current in game role is far better and more efficient due to Presence V over Presence IV. I don't care about the cost when you can do what you want in game better. How good you are at what you want to do in game is what matters. Not payoff cost. At least that's how I see it.
I think we understand each other now and although we don't fully agree on values it doesn't matter. I don't think my argument pales against there are not enough skills. But that's for everyone else to make their own minds up on.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.18 14:44:00 -
[32]
Ariel Dawn said " The fact that down the line you may train slightly faster on new skills that come out is superseded by the 9-14 days worth of actual useful skill training you could have done in the time it took you to 5 Charisma." There is one big flaw with that. You assume the new skills have the same value as the skills you could train instead of adv5. Different skills have different values of worth. Sometimes the skills you gain faster due to adv5 are better than the skills you could have trained instead of adv5.
The only thing that matters in my mind is your current ingame role and current skill focus. When you look at it like that often adv5 skills even Charisma adv5 can be very much worth it.
Ariel Dawn said " Unless you're just training skills randomly, Advanced Perception and Advanced Intelligence to 5 are the only ones worth maxing out, and" That's wrong, you don't have to train randomly. You just need to have one in game role change and one skill focus change and any of the adv5 skills can be worth it. Being better at your current ingame role makes the skill worth while.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.18 17:02:00 -
[33]
Ariel Dawn said " You don't understand, yes you will train faster in whatever skill group you want, but you will never actually make up the time you've spent training Charisma to 5." I do understand. What I am saying is who cares if I never make up the actually time spent on Charisma to 5. That doesn't matter, what matters is I am weeks further along at my current skillplan and ingame role. What I want to do right now in game is week's better due to Charisma to 5, so Charisma was worthwhile.
Ariel Dawn said " A plan containing every single Charisma skill in the game to 5 will end faster having not trained Presence to 5," Not always. It depends on when and why you started the skillplan. Let's say on Jan the 1st I decide to get all the leadership skills. Perhaps a game balance made me start the plan then, or a change of mood, perhaps a change of role in the corp whatever the reason I start then. As I have adv5 now I end that plan 17/26days faster with adv5 over adv4. I cannot train the plan early as its the trigger on the 1st that made me change plans.
That's 17days saved on just Leadership skills or 26days saved if I have both willpower and Charisma adv5's. All that time saved due to one game event that caused me to change skillplans and in game roles. Things like that are when adv5 and Charisma adv5 are worthwhile. Every time you have a game role change or skill focus change the adv5 skills become very worthwhile. The problem with your posts is you are assuming you can always train the Charisma skills before getting adv5.
Ariel Dawn said " Your argument that 'someday' you'll maybe have a chance to finish "Window Shopping Lv5" in Incarna a few hours earlier assumes that there's some magical award to beating everyone else to L5." Few hours? More like about a day if it's a rank 5 more than a day if higher more if its more then one skill. From past experience it's not hours unless you talking rank 1 or level 1 but it can end up weeks different if a set of skills. Due to Charisma adv5 I finished my Orca skill plan weeks faster which meant I could start my T3 plan not only early but I maxed out a few T3 skills all before the version of me with Charisma adv4 had even started the T3 skills. If I factor in all adv5 skills I finished my T3 plan before the adv4 version of me had finished the Orca plan yet alone started the T3.
You say some magical award to beating everyone else to L5. It's not about beating other people it's about beating yourself if you had adv4. We are not talking hours either but weeks or months. The reward is being better at your current in game role and/or getting your new ingame role much sooner. The other reward is to be able to adapt to changes faster.
Ariel Dawn said " People will get it to 5 if its good a few hours later with Pres 4 or 3, and still have a large SP advantage over you despite yours training faster." If Incarna is anything like the leadership, trade or corp changes then we are not talking hours but weeks or more. I had this same discussion about presence 5 around summer time last year. If I look at from then till now I am weeks better off with Presence 5.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.10.18 18:59:00 -
[34]
Ariel Dawn said "You say you saved 17 days? You're not telling the truth." Ok 17days could be a smaller or bigger number based on your attributes but it's not a lie. With Willpower 14 and Charisma 18 it takes 426days to get all leadership skills. With Presence V it would take 408 days. So in the situation I described in my other posts the plan ends 18 days sooner with Presence V. Add in willpower to adv5 and that's 400days so the plan ends 26days sooner.
Not hit payoff but more than worth it.
Ariel Dawn said "The thread's OP's point was the previous, currently it is impossible to make the SP back from training Presence to 5," The OP point was that Presence to 5 was not worth training. My point is that for many people it is worth training under certain situations. Just because its impossible to make the SP back from training Presence to 5. It does not mean you cannot end a skillplan 17days or more sooner due to Presence V.
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