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Mining Smurf
Caldari Shadow Veil Industrial
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Posted - 2009.09.02 08:52:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Mining Smurf on 02/09/2009 08:57:11
Hi all,
OK - just *what* is the point of the CSM?
There's a thread going on in the Assembly Hall regarding the competence of GMs and the seeming failures of the petition system. It's over 350 posts long yet CCP feel able to not bother with any form of official response.
There are multiple threads going on the the issues, workarounds and localization forum regarding people bringing hack attempts on their accounts to CCP. They subsequently get locked out of their accounts for weeks on end and are left high and dry by CCP in the meantime with not a single scrap of feedback on their issue while still being charged for the "privilege".
CCP seem, from the lack of an official response to these threads, to feel able to ignore these threads too.
So just what *is* the CSM doing about this and *can* they do anything about this seeming endemic failure within CCP?
Or is the CSM simply a tipping of the hat towards player concerns about EVE while nothing *actually* gets resolved?
MS
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Pubsey
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.02 17:14:00 -
[2]
It's purposed is to generate some press interest and act as a lightning rod for forums whining.
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Orakkus
Minmatar m3 Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.02 17:55:00 -
[3]
There have been some changes that were made because of the advent of the CSMs, I think the most recent was the Faction Warfare LP payouts. So, yeah, from time to time CCP does listen to them.
Sometimes though, you'll have a Dev in the CCP group that will not for the life of them will see things the players way and have often sabotaged various attempts to get things through. Add to that, CSMs just wanna play the game too and stuff can get dropped. Or, as what happens in real politics, you sometimes vote in an idiot.
I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet. |
Juicy Gossip
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Posted - 2009.09.08 20:54:00 -
[4]
Short answer: No
If it ever served a purpose it no longer does. It's just a popularity contest now.
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Ruby Khann
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Posted - 2009.09.09 02:28:00 -
[5]
It's essentially a Superfan Club / popularity contest.
They have not effected a single significant change, nor have they played any role in curbing CCP misconduct.
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Erik Finnegan
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Posted - 2009.09.12 14:35:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Erik Finnegan on 12/09/2009 14:38:41 added links
Smurf, and dear Trolls,
the CSM is a valued partner of CCP in discussing matters of the player base and getting early feedback on design decisions which CCP is about to make. You should keep in mind, though, that this experiment is new and unique in the industry - as such, please allow for some time of accomodation on both sides, CCP and the CSM. I mean, look at it this way : CCP is teaming with players, has them sign a non-disclosure agreement, in order to discuss matters long before public press releases ?! You don't want to go full throttle here from the start given the possible damage that can be done. We are only one year down the road, and I can assure you that the CSM gets full attention by CCP.
As to your complaint about issues not being addressed in this forum : the Assembly Hall as well as Jita Park are CSM territory, and CCP is relying on us to process them ! This is a sign of trust and not of ignorance. CCP gave that part of the forum to the CSM exclusively. If you take some time to read into the available documentation about the CSM, you will quickly find the issues which we have and will discuss with CCP in evelopedia's Issues in Process category. This also lists your GM issue, which even received an extra slot during our Iceland face-to-face meetings - and we had the full team of senior GMs, including the head of Internal Affairs, sitting there listening to our complaints. Does that answer your question so far ?
Please read the minutes on the CSM-CCP meeting as soon as they are available. They will be linked here on the homepage as well as in the evelopedia.
As to the "issue resolution" you should bear in mind that CSM is an advisor and the final decision, which is also influenced by business constraints the CSM is not able to comment on, remains with CCP. The CSM does not design the game for CCP. And you should not be so full of yourself to assume that anything any player trolls in the forums gets immediate attention. The channel, which CCP has opened to the players via the CSM, is very active and of great importance. The questions and answers feature is further window, which was opened also by initiative of the CSM. Would you follow the CSM minutes you would see a lot of the Assembly Hall issues are being addressed.
A gratifying number of players also uses direct conversation to his and her favourite Counselor in order to bring issues to their attention.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.09.13 13:44:00 -
[7]
Put simply, the purpose of the CSM is to make it so that the devs don't have to wade through all the idiots on the forums(/me points upthread) to find out what players want. They hold an election, find nine folks to represent a good cross-section of players, and get them to filter out the bad ideas and raise the good ones.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2009.09.15 03:32:00 -
[8]
CCP do need to say something about their plans for upgrading their support infrastructure.
Currently the system is failing, support is breaking and paying customers are being left in the cold.
This single issue could be the downfall of Eve if not quickly jumped on with adequate resources.
Support isn't keeping up with growth.
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mazzilliu
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:02:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith CCP do need to say something about their plans for upgrading their support infrastructure.
Currently the system is failing, support is breaking and paying customers are being left in the cold.
This single issue could be the downfall of Eve if not quickly jumped on with adequate resources.
Support isn't keeping up with growth.
i dunno what game you're playing. GM responce waiting time has been down from last year by a huge percent
MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU. |
Ivana Twinkle
Amarr Polytechnique Gallenteenne
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Posted - 2009.09.23 08:15:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Ivana Twinkle on 23/09/2009 08:18:41 The few times I've needed help with things in eve, responses have been swift(same session) and competent - even directing me to the proper channel in the event where the GM was unable to help me with the petition.
In regard to CSM - I know first hand(my CEO is CSM and he posted above) how much time and effort the CSM put into their job.
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Vuk Lau
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Posted - 2009.09.23 11:13:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Vuk Lau on 23/09/2009 11:13:02
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith CCP do need to say something about their plans for upgrading their support infrastructure.
Currently the system is failing, support is breaking and paying customers are being left in the cold.
This single issue could be the downfall of Eve if not quickly jumped on with adequate resources.
Support isn't keeping up with growth.
i dunno what game you're playing. GM responce waiting time has been down from last year by a huge percent
And how do you know this?
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Seth Quantix
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2009.09.24 20:41:00 -
[12]
GM Waiting times down?? dont be absurd, takes me 24 to 48 hours just to get a copy paste answer, let alone to actually talk to someone. i pretty much given up lol. i dont bother with petitions its pointless and usually a complete waste of my time. -----------------------------------------------
The NC final solution:
Quote: rawr-vuk-lau: can we set BoB blue so we can kill Tri together?
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mazzilliu
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Posted - 2009.09.24 20:48:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Vuk Lau Edited by: Vuk Lau on 23/09/2009 11:13:02
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith CCP do need to say something about their plans for upgrading their support infrastructure.
Currently the system is failing, support is breaking and paying customers are being left in the cold.
This single issue could be the downfall of Eve if not quickly jumped on with adequate resources.
Support isn't keeping up with growth.
i dunno what game you're playing. GM responce waiting time has been down from last year by a huge percent
And how do you know this?
probably insider information or something
MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU. |
Dirty Wizard
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Posted - 2009.09.24 21:58:00 -
[14]
Confirming that GM response time and petition resolution sucks.
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Micia
Minmatar Hand Of Muritor
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Posted - 2009.09.25 07:41:00 -
[15]
OP starts with:
Quote: CSM - does it serve an actual purpose?
Given the almost complete disregard that CSM have displayed in the Directional Scanner issue, it would appear the answer to your question is...
no.
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BallistaII
BOUNTY. HUNTER. MINING. EXSPLORATION. CORPORATION. HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2009.09.25 16:32:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Micia OP starts with:
Quote: CSM - does it serve an actual purpose?
Given the almost complete disregard that CSM have displayed in the Directional Scanner issue, it would appear the answer to your question is...
no.
Nexus Kinnon for CCP President!!!! Larkonis Trassler for CSM!!!! |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.09.28 10:33:00 -
[17]
Was originally planned as a "democratic" advisory council that CCP could use as a sounding board to make Eve better if I recall. Nowadays it resembles real life political institutions too much in that it is filled with people whose primary concern is their own interests rather than the game as a whole.
But if the CSM is meant to represent the player base as argued then the number of null-sec representatives needs a significant decrease.
The 0.0 population is a minority whether you like it or not and is likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.
One good thing that has come out of it is the Assembly Hall where the entire player-base is essentially acting as the afore mentioned sounding board, beyond that I see no reason for the CSM to exist as it is still the loudest most persistent parties that get their way.
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Armoured C
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.09.29 18:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Erik Finnegan Edited by: Erik Finnegan on 12/09/2009 14:38:41 added links
Smurf, and dear Trolls,
the CSM is a valued partner of CCP in discussing matters of the player base and getting early feedback on design decisions which CCP is about to make. You should keep in mind, though, that this experiment is new and unique in the industry - as such, please allow for some time of accomodation on both sides, CCP and the CSM. I mean, look at it this way : CCP is teaming with players, has them sign a non-disclosure agreement, in order to discuss matters long before public press releases ?! You don't want to go full throttle here from the start given the possible damage that can be done. We are only one year down the road, and I can assure you that the CSM gets full attention by CCP.
As to your complaint about issues not being addressed in this forum : the Assembly Hall as well as Jita Park are CSM territory, and CCP is relying on us to process them ! This is a sign of trust and not of ignorance. CCP gave that part of the forum to the CSM exclusively. If you take some time to read into the available documentation about the CSM, you will quickly find the issues which we have and will discuss with CCP in evelopedia's Issues in Process category. This also lists your GM issue, which even received an extra slot during our Iceland face-to-face meetings - and we had the full team of senior GMs, including the head of Internal Affairs, sitting there listening to our complaints. Does that answer your question so far ?
Please read the minutes on the CSM-CCP meeting as soon as they are available. They will be linked here on the homepage as well as in the evelopedia.
As to the "issue resolution" you should bear in mind that CSM is an advisor and the final decision, which is also influenced by business constraints the CSM is not able to comment on, remains with CCP. The CSM does not design the game for CCP. And you should not be so full of yourself to assume that anything any player trolls in the forums gets immediate attention. The channel, which CCP has opened to the players via the CSM, is very active and of great importance. The questions and answers feature is further window, which was opened also by initiative of the CSM. Would you follow the CSM minutes you would see a lot of the Assembly Hall issues are being addressed.
A gratifying number of players also uses direct conversation to his and her favourite Counselor in order to bring issues to their attention.
My analogy:
You ( the playerbase ) is a slice of bread, CCP is a slice of bread. The CSM makes it nice and tasty by being the jam in the middle. It bring the 2 bits of bread together
Armoured C Steven Mason FOR CSM *with added pirate hat*
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Iwant Urstuff
Amarr Iwant Urstuff Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.30 15:48:00 -
[19]
The CSM is clearly abusing the priviledge of representing us.
1) CSM term limits as an issue was brought before the CSM with only THREE supports. How was this representing the EVE player base again?
2) The current scanner mess (which is only going to get worse when local goes away in 0.0) which had over 1200 supports was not raised again. A comment CCP is rethinking it's position was all that was made. Obviously with 1200+ supports this should be raised immediately and repeatedly.
3) The CSM clearly does not represent the majority of the EVE player base. How many of you are 0.0 Big alliance members again? What percentage of EVE players actually go to 0.0?
4) The current NDA the CSM is required to sign is a JOKE. Either the CSM represents the players or it represents CCP. Which one is it? This is a clear CONFLICT OF INTEREST. Besides which it is probably violated in an organized matter by out of game communication by the big 0.0 alliances.
5) The CSM is prohibited from delving into certain topics, by who? CCP again.
CCP either needs to one take the handcuffs off the CSM so they can represent the player base or two end the current CSM system (which seems to just be a way for CCP to white-wash it's problems).
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Good Advice
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Posted - 2009.10.01 01:50:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Iwant Urstuff The CSM is clearly abusing the priviledge of representing us.
1) CSM term limits as an issue was brought before the CSM with only THREE supports. How was this representing the EVE player base again?
It is the CSM's job to weed through the forums and find the ideas they feel are necessary to be escalated. Popularity is usually a horrible indicator of game balance.
Originally by: Iwant Urstuff 2) The current scanner mess (which is only going to get worse when local goes away in 0.0) which had over 1200 supports was not raised again. A comment CCP is rethinking it's position was all that was made. Obviously with 1200+ supports this should be raised immediately and repeatedly.
I've seen multiple say the issue was raised, and CCP's response was that they aren't going to go back to the old system. I'm not exactly sure what else you think they can do. They could make it their sole issue in every meeting, but that just prevents them from raising other worthy topics. CSM brings concerns of the players to CCP, but the popularity of an issue does not always mean that it fits into what is best for the game, as CCP can see repercussions of a feature that other players can't (such as server lag)
Originally by: Iwant Urstuff 3) The CSM clearly does not represent the majority of the EVE player base. How many of you are 0.0 Big alliance members again? What percentage of EVE players actually go to 0.0?
The CSM represents the majority of voters. If you wanted it to represent the majority of characters, CCP would have to mandate the election results, which seems to invalidate the whole process. Plus, who wants 1 representative in charge of trade alts, another in charge of 0 sp scout alts, another representing datacore farming, etc.... If you want someone to represent your issues, get other like-minded people and vote. If you can't swing the # of people to get someone elected, representative goverments just aren't meant for you.
Originally by: Iwant Urstuff 4) The current NDA the CSM is required to sign is a JOKE. Either the CSM represents the players or it represents CCP. Which one is it? This is a clear CONFLICT OF INTEREST. Besides which it is probably violated in an organized matter by out of game communication by the big 0.0 alliances.
At times, the CSM will be asked their opinion about upcoming changes CCP is considering, or long term plans for eve. This is exactly what they should be doing, and CCP requires a NDA so that every little future idea isn't released, when a lot of them are only conceptual and might never make it in game. It prevents thousands of people complaining about XYZ idea based upon incomplete information, when it is only in the initial stages of possible planning, and might never be released.
Originally by: Iwant Urstuff 5) The CSM is prohibited from delving into certain topics, by who? CCP again.
CCP either needs to one take the handcuffs off the CSM so they can represent the player base or two end the current CSM system (which seems to just be a way for CCP to white-wash it's problems).
CSM provides input into all aspects of eve, but they don't run Eve. They consult, and provide advice. Do you expect CCP to run a multi-billion dollar company based on the votes of their players? That is a guaranteed way to fail. They make business decisions that are best for them, and seek player input on game design issues.
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Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
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Posted - 2009.10.03 21:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Erik Finnegan
Smurf, and dear Trolls,
Not really the best way to address your potential voterbase, dip****. Some of the complaints in this thread are valid, whether or not you or Ankhemesempatenkah's Hand think they are or not. Do remember who put you in your comfy seat in the first place. ---
I was going to run for CSM but life waylaid me :( |
Dracoknight
Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.04 20:18:00 -
[22]
Since the election i havent really seen much from either CCP or the CSM that either confirmes or denies any changes on whatever they promised during the election.
From CCPs side all i have seen is "dominion this and dominion that" and the only CSM i have seen doing anything is CSM larkis who get himself banned for something!
Whatever if the CSM is going anything worth mentioning CCP doesnt really let that come to public anyway, so this system is more like mentioned before a popularity contest by attention *****s.
It isnt us the players that need to stop whining, rather that CSM start taking action and show the players who voted for them that they actually tries anything of what they promised. ____________________
I wish my Thorax could use missiles... |
mazzilliu
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Posted - 2009.10.04 21:57:00 -
[23]
you know what is funny is that CSM term limits also has more support within ccp then you would expect. it probably has something to do with the fact that first-timers are somewhat not very good at contributing because they have to deal with the fact that there is all this new csm rules to learn.
this forum and you posters in this forum is also a pretty terrible measure of player opinion. its also hard to get the message out to your concerns because all we can do is post things that end up getting drowned out by more posts by trolls and or people who are mad for little good reason. i get most of my measure of player opinion from my corpmates and forums that arent the assembly hall because this forum is the caod equivalent for the CSM.
MAZZILLIU 2009. CHANGE I CAN IMPOSE ON YOU. |
Issler Dainze
Minmatar Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
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Posted - 2009.10.05 00:53:00 -
[24]
Short answer - Yes!
The CSM definitely can effect Eve in both good and bad ways. The CSM has the opportunity to directly interface with CCP in a 1:1 manner that can definitely change how they think. The CSM can also help keep CCP "honest" by being a set of player "eyes" to review CCP actions when scandals occur.
So you can choose to believe this or not but I can tell from direct experience these are the facts.
My advice is not to ask "Does the the CSM serve a purpose?" but "How do I make sure it is as effective as it can be for making Eve a better place for you?" How do you do this?
Participate! Study the candidates, make them clarify their stands on issues. Make them state clearly why they are running and what they expect to do if they are elected! Then when they are elected follow what that do and hold them accountable! If they what the bring up as issues or how they voted is inconsistent with what they promised you when they ran call them out! If a scandal occurs and they remain silent should CCP make decisions you don't agree with then call them out! They promised you when you elected them to serve your interests, make sure they honor that promise!
Or better yet, RUN! Be part of the process by joining the CSM! But if you do please take it seriously!
Issler Dainze CSM2, CSM3, CSMx
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Mynxee
Minmatar Hellcats The Bastards.
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Posted - 2009.10.05 00:57:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Mynxee on 05/10/2009 00:57:42 To the OP and all the naysayers: If you don't think the CSM is acting on behalf of the player base nor accomplishing anything, I suggest a reading comprehension course.
That said, communications from CSM to players is sparse and somewhat poor--particularly regarding meeting minutes. It annoys me that it takes so long to learn what was discussed in CSM meetings--especially the ones that take place in Iceland. From the perspective of expectations management, regular official status updates--even if no progress has been made in the minutes getting through CCP's review process--would be nice. They could be put in Maz's sticky in Assembly Hall for ease of tracking.
Bump It! | My Blog: Life in Low Sec |
Bethany Blaze
Amarr Cool Story Bro
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Posted - 2009.10.06 18:18:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Bethany Blaze on 06/10/2009 18:19:31
Originally by: Pubsey It's purposed is to generate some press interest and act as a lightning rod for forums whining.
Excellent summary. At least the forum whining (from the CSMs) was interesting to read when Jade was involved. Now I feel like I'm reading some horrible DeviantArtist justify why their non-art is actually art and how everyone else is wrong, without ever providing any facts to back it up outside of "I know something you don't! Nyah, nyah, nyah!".
The egos of most of the CSM posting in this thread are precisely the example of why they are not fit for the job. According to modern leadership theories, good leaders (which they fall under the definition of) have words such as "coach" or "servant" or "humble" or "able to listen to viewpoints directly opposed to their own" attached to them. Unfortunately, they're as hard to find on Internet games as in the real world.
Originally by: J.R.R. Tolkien The most improper job of any man, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.
Emphasis mine.
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mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.06 23:22:00 -
[27]
Edited by: mazzilliu on 06/10/2009 23:21:58
Originally by: Bethany Blaze
The egos of most of the CSM posting in this thread are precisely the example of why they are not fit for the job. According to modern leadership theories, good leaders (which they fall under the definition of) have words such as "coach" or "servant" or "humble" or "able to listen to viewpoints directly opposed to their own" attached to them. Unfortunately, they're as hard to find on Internet games as in the real world.
Originally by: J.R.R. Tolkien The most improper job of any man, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.
Emphasis mine.
i read sun tzu¦s art of war and quote from it continuously. i think this makes me fit to lead. i have also read machiavelli¦s books and i have come to the conclusion that not only am i fit to lead, i ought to take down anyone else trying to run for the CSM until i am the only viable candidate remaining.
also i occasionally have the word ¦servant¦ at least attached to me. as in sometimes i can get someone to do stuff for me. i also like to ¦humble¦ others for my own amusement, and ¦coach¦ people when i think i know things better then them.
also the bolded word in your quote is my own emphasis. its the loophole that makes me exempt because i am a GIRL IN REAL LIFE WOOHOOOOOO |
Miklas Laces
tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.10.09 06:42:00 -
[28]
I want to see if CSM asked CCP about the scanner at fanfest. There's 70 pages of people asking for it, the largest thread in assembly hall. If they didnt they can go die in a fire and we can close the CSM for beeing useless to the players. ________________________________________________ CCP Claw > Sokata has been destroyed for boundary violation Drug Kito > Sokata you'll always be remembered as a noob in history of alliance tourname |
Saju Somtaaw
Gallente Diiamond Heavy Industries MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.10.09 15:02:00 -
[29]
Didn't any one else read the hot fix patch-notes? It's now 1.3 seconds, matching the visual timer. To find it look under the patch notes at the bottom it says "Hot fix...deployed October 6, 2009" and is the first item. ---- --- ---
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Miklas Laces
tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.10.10 01:16:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Saju Somtaaw Didn't any one else read the hot fix patch-notes? It's now 1.3 seconds, matching the visual timer. To find it look under the patch notes at the bottom it says "Hot fix...deployed October 6, 2009" and is the first item.
it's still totally crap and also that's not the point, I asked if CSM raised this issue with CCP or not
go back the wormhole space ________________________________________________ CCP Claw > Sokata has been destroyed for boundary violation Drug Kito > Sokata you'll always be remembered as a noob in history of alliance tourname |
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