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Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.09.27 09:16:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Kora Zilesti Competition is steadily going up, due to threads like this. More and more people are farming militia LP and crowding the markets with unique goods.
That's why a snypa-bump is in order. It's only a good thing to have competition.
Originally by: Sandslinger of CA
So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.09.27 10:11:00 -
[92]
Originally by: SuiJuris As we get more familier with the missions I'm sure our efficeincy will improve but its not this *OMGWTFFREEISKIES* parade other people are touting. Maybe it is on the Caldari / Gallente side because of the Terrain.
FW missions suffer from the same problems that plexes have, an absolutely massive discrepancy in NPC ability.
I am seeing Matari pilots running the hardest lvl4s in AFs and Interceptors faster than my Sacrilege simply because the TP+Missile spam forces me to tank like a mofo the entire time. I can imagine Caldari have an easy time with missions due to close range npcs all slowboating towards the runner and Gallente having to contend with ECM spam as has been reported to be the case in plexes.
Balance the NPCs and the mission balance will follow suit.
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Mystical Dawn
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.09.27 11:11:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Jowen Datloran Btw. when/if you local RMT group get news about this way of making isk you will be surprised how quick this game mechanic will be changed.
You are already late, that corp members have been banned before from doing business with RMT, wouldn't be surprised if they are selling the ISK generated by that...
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Tammarr
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Posted - 2009.09.27 15:16:00 -
[94]
People talk about risk with thoose missions. Lets see, pirates commonly ignoring fw due to the blob that will come quickly if they show themselves. Check. Spamming request/decline missions to cherry pick the best ones. I highly doubt it'll take 15 minutes to roll a good one or your not using enough alts to roll roll roll.
So, your two guys with tank+gank are in the system, they see beacon. they warp, they kill. mission turns in, next becon appears. repeat ad infinitum.
No 4hr reroll=Fail.
The more vigorusly people defend this new isk print the better is has to be. The auto balancer take ages and you have people not abusing(or not being aware) the system making sure the missions stay up there lp wise.
Does it make more money then lvl4s or 00 ratting per hour easily when abused? It does, by a good(insane) quantity or the defense and 'its impossible' rants would not be in this thread.
So fw pvpers get it easy with isk more fighting and never leave the fw training grounds to seek the real fight in 00 because rewards there are lousy in comparsion?
Basicly. If fw lp can be abused to make a truckload of isk compared to lvl4 missions/ratting in 0.0 the balance is broken and needs to be corrected asap. 4 hour mission reroll. Like the rest of us suffer to curb this behaviour. If the missions endup in hostile territory it should damn well give you time to respond, not be blitzed by two characters putting a few m isk on the line. Do note I'am talking about this abusing of the system here, a mere 4 hour reroll timer like for anyone else would sort it proper and well blitzable mission or no blitzable missions.
Thanks. And may the whines of the fwers felling their iskprint being threatend reach ccps ears.
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Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.09.27 16:04:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Tammarr People talk about risk with thoose missions. Lets see, pirates commonly ignoring fw due to the blob that will come quickly if they show themselves. Check. Spamming request/decline missions to cherry pick the best ones. I highly doubt it'll take 15 minutes to roll a good one or your not using enough alts to roll roll roll.
So, your two guys with tank+gank are in the system, they see beacon. they warp, they kill. mission turns in, next becon appears. repeat ad infinitum.
No 4hr reroll=Fail.
The more vigorusly people defend this new isk print the better is has to be. The auto balancer take ages and you have people not abusing(or not being aware) the system making sure the missions stay up there lp wise.
Does it make more money then lvl4s or 00 ratting per hour easily when abused? It does, by a good(insane) quantity or the defense and 'its impossible' rants would not be in this thread.
So fw pvpers get it easy with isk more fighting and never leave the fw training grounds to seek the real fight in 00 because rewards there are lousy in comparsion?
Basicly. If fw lp can be abused to make a truckload of isk compared to lvl4 missions/ratting in 0.0 the balance is broken and needs to be corrected asap. 4 hour mission reroll. Like the rest of us suffer to curb this behaviour. If the missions endup in hostile territory it should damn well give you time to respond, not be blitzed by two characters putting a few m isk on the line. Do note I'am talking about this abusing of the system here, a mere 4 hour reroll timer like for anyone else would sort it proper and well blitzable mission or no blitzable missions.
Thanks. And may the whines of the fwers felling their iskprint being threatend reach ccps ears.
Pretty much spot on. I would be stupid to defend this system, however, I'll keep running the missions while it's still possible.
Originally by: Sandslinger of CA
So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2009.09.27 17:25:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Tammarr ...
If there will be too many ppl farming fw lps, their value will go down /and it will/. And we all want so see cheap navy geddons /domis, phoons or even slicers/ on contracts...
So i dont think its a problem.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.09.27 17:44:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: SuiJuris As we get more familier with the missions I'm sure our efficeincy will improve but its not this *OMGWTFFREEISKIES* parade other people are touting. Maybe it is on the Caldari / Gallente side because of the Terrain.
FW missions suffer from the same problems that plexes have, an absolutely massive discrepancy in NPC ability.
...
Balance the NPCs and the mission balance will follow suit.
Honestly, the caldari NPC's are much of an issue in the missions because you can pick the easy ones and be finished in 30-60 seconds per mission.
Now plexes, that's another issue altogether.
IMO, they should have given LP for plexes, not missions. At least the guy has to sit there for 10-30 minutes instead of 1-2 in a mission.
Don't take this as a grudge against the pervs or anything, I farmed the missions for a while too :)
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The Yzzerman
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.09.28 12:14:00 -
[98]
I love to see all cry babys in this post... You high sec mission runners join FW and do the mission aswell, I will more then welcome you onboard office should be all around you. But please dont join Minmatar militia join amarr side so i can kill you in yor easy mission.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.09.28 17:28:00 -
[99]
I'm still not seeing the problem here. The value of LP is strictly determined by players. It has no inherent value.
If FW LP are ridiculously easy to aquire, they will not be worth very much. It's self correcting (and I'm not talking about the auto adjuster). More supply = lower prices. Lower prices = less isk/lp = less isk/hour running FW missions.
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Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.10.12 23:11:00 -
[100]
I heard there's a nerf bus in the 1st page of this forum and wanted to get hit by it.
Originally by: Sandslinger of CA
So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.13 02:12:00 -
[101]
Blame high sec mission runners for the high prices, not FW. Carebears are the target market for all this loot. Who else is going to spend up to 1 billion on a souped up BS?
So basically these FW missions are a huge wealth transfer from carebear High sec mission runners to Factional Warfare players. What's the problem?
Plus, if there is an over supply of lps then prices will drop right?
That said, you can earn up to 100 million isk/hour running missions out of the low security system Aeschee. Run Sisters of Eve missions, purchase Sisters probes and sell them for massive amounts of isk. Or, accept a Level 5 mission from the FIO station that has a mission in a nearby high-sec system. Where are the complaints about that huge isk faucet?
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Pytria Le'Danness
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Posted - 2009.10.13 09:06:00 -
[102]
I recently did a few of these missions with an alt. Since he only had standings for GalMil L2s I ran a bunch of them, and can only say: it's dead easy and almost safe ISK. With a few extra precautions you'll be nigh uncatchable. L4s might be more tricky, when SiSi is back I'll look at those too (the alt doesn't have the standings and I do not want to leave my corp for a test).
What I did was fly a Vexor and spammed the agent until I got a mission not more than three to five jumps out. Anything further and travel time simply becomes too long. Fly to the destination system (paranoid people can use a travel fit with WCS), warp to the mission (paranoid people can wait until the system is empty), MWD away from the warp in and send drones after prime target. While the drones chew on the target MWD away from the NPCs to minimize damage.
I could easily run these missions in a fully PvP fitted buffer tank Vexor. Once I was accosted by a Caldari Crow which ran away in armor, once by a pirate Vexor - I left my drones to him since I had full room aggro and doubted I could take him AND the NPCs.
Each mission pays roughly 500k and slightly above 1k LP (remember, these are L2 missions.). They also give considerable standing boosts. In a few hours I ran roughly a dozen missions (will need to check my log to see how long I truly was at it).
It was dead easy and had I lost the Vexor it would have been no big loss either - fully insured and with a simple T2 fitting, four to six missions would have paid for it I guess. And that's not counting the LP - I got roughly 25k LP from those L2 missions, that translates into some 200.000.000 ISK in Fed Navy drones (didn't really check what is the best LP/ISK ratio yet).
For Caldari I guess it's even easier. There is a militia station in Eha and I guess you can get the agent to assign you missions next door in Oicx easily, and the Gallente NPCs don't ECM and missile spam either. I don't know what the Caldari store has though, but even if you only get the Navy frigate cheaper it's a huge money maker.
I agree with Unfamed, this needs nerfing.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.13 10:10:00 -
[103]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 13/10/2009 10:13:37 Prices will likely drop (if they aren't already) once people stop hoarding lps after the next expansion.
If they don't drop then it probably means that the risk/reward ratio is about right (since carebears who make $50 million/hour in high sec L4 missions will be too scared to enter low sec). http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1111964
As isk/lp drops, it encourages the FW player to fly and lose faction ships instead of selling them (which is also a win).
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Cutie Chaser
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.10.13 13:45:00 -
[104]
Let us examine this issue:
1. Good rewards for short amount of time 2. Constant danger of camps/pirates/other fw players 3. And most importantly NO NEW ISK INJECTED INTO THE ECONOMY!
Sounds great!
I'm a fan of anything people can do to earn themselves ISK that does not actually inject ISK into the economy, and this fits the bill. LPs lack intrinsic value since no NPCs buy the resulting items.
I'd be happy to see tons of players running these and bringing down the cost of faction modules. The price of everything LP related will decrease over time as more people get in on the action.
*** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers. |
Will Strafe
Caldari Overview Glitch
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Posted - 2009.10.13 14:12:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Pytria Le'Danness I recently did a few of these missions with an alt. Since he only had standings for GalMil L2s I ran a bunch of them, and can only say: it's dead easy and almost safe ISK. With a few extra precautions you'll be nigh uncatchable. L4s might be more tricky, when SiSi is back I'll look at those too (the alt doesn't have the standings and I do not want to leave my corp for a test).
As compared to level 4 Hisec, about which you can say; It's deadeasy and totally safe ISK.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.10.13 16:20:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Tammarr People talk about risk with thoose missions. Lets see, pirates commonly ignoring fw due to the blob that will come quickly if they show themselves.
I'm not sure where you are doing your FW, but this is completely inaccurate on the Gallente/Caldari front.
There are several pirate corps that are or have operated in Black Rise, BYDI most notably. They have cap support and are fully capable of taking on the FW blobs with their superior RR BS gangs.
FW is one of the best things to happen to pirates starved for targets, the suggestion they avoid FW space is pretty ludicrous.
As far as 'needing a nerf' goes...why? The value of LP is entirely self correcting. If the LP are 'too easy' to gain they'll become worth less, as more people do it.
Conceptually, I don't think lucrative missions in low sec is a bad thing at all. I don't think having FW missions worth running is a bad thing at all.
Is the argument these earn money 'better' than L4 high sec missions? Shouldn't they?
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0oO0oOoOo0o
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Posted - 2009.10.14 00:04:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Ulstan I'm still not seeing the problem here. The value of LP is strictly determined by players. It has no inherent value.
If FW LP are ridiculously easy to aquire, they will not be worth very much. It's self correcting (and I'm not talking about the auto adjuster). More supply = lower prices. Lower prices = less isk/lp = less isk/hour running FW missions.
Dude get a clue, it's not that simple as you describe it. Those items you get from LP store are the ones that level 1-5 missionrunners in highsec and lowsec live from. They sell the same faction ammo, implants and BPCs (except some special FW items), and if you ruin the price on that, you will ruin their gameplay with that easy-mode LP farming abuse. Think of all that highsec mission bears, they work hard to get 7k LP and they need double as much LP for some items, for example the BPCs. If you as a FW mission exploiter can farm like 15k LP in 10 minutes and dumb down the prices of LP store items, you will totally ruin the average non-FW missionrunner's gameplay.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.14 02:20:00 -
[108]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 14/10/2009 02:26:05 Bounties: 27% Reward: 7% LP: 27% (this assumed 1800 isk/lp which is high for most high sec mission runners) Salvage: 20% Loot: 18%
It seems lp is only 27% of the total income for the high-sec mission runner. Instead of 50 million isk/hour, L4 income would potentially be cut to perhaps 43 million isk/hour at 500 isk/lp. And if FW mission runners were making only 500 isk/lp they'd go back to high sec missions to make their isk, so there's a real floor to the isk/lp ratio. At some point the FW mission runners would simply sell only FW specific items that would get a higher isk/lp rate or simply buy cheap faction ships and have fun with them in combat instead.
The real question is total capacity. My guess is that the number of FW generated lps is, and always will be, small compared to the number of high sec mission generated lps simply because of real or perceived risks of running missions in low sec by the majority of players in Eve. Otherwise, you'd see more low sec mission runners out of places like Aeschee and even other low sec systems where you can access L4 missions that don't even show up in local when run.
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Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.10.14 11:04:00 -
[109]
FW Roundtable thingy
Minutes 48-49. Looks like CCP will do something, whatever that something is. \o/ Just adding something here: CCP probably had a reason to originally implement the 4h limit when asking and declining missions.
Originally by: Sandslinger of CA
So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
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Jelosavich
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Posted - 2009.10.14 17:31:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Tammarr pirates commonly ignoring fw due to the blob that will come quickly if they show themselves.
Wrong.
Originally by: Tammarr I highly doubt it'll take 15 minutes to roll a good one or your not using enough alts to roll roll roll.
1)Your doubts don't matter, facts do. 2) You think that using two characters increases the odds that you'll get an acceptable mission on one of them? Someone needs to go back to high school math (or possibly just take it to begin with). 3) If you're using more characters, you're going to get more money... that's how pretty much any activity works.
Originally by: Tammarr No 4hr reroll=Not having to kill a POS in Auga while WTs are camping all the gates=Win.
FTFY.
Originally by: Tammarr The more vigorusly people defend this new isk print the stupider the arguments have to be.
FTFY
Originally by: Tammarr So fw pvpers get it easy with isk more fighting and never leave the fw training grounds to seek the real fight in 00 because rewards there are lousy in comparsion?
LOL@Stand still and shoot primary gangs and POS bashing.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.10.14 20:55:00 -
[111]
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o
Dude get a clue, it's not that simple as you describe it.
Yes it is. The value of LP is self correcting.
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o Those items you get from LP store are the ones that level 1-5 missionrunners in highsec and lowsec live from. They sell the same faction ammo, implants and BPCs (except some special FW items)
The 'special FW items' are usually the ones the FW mission runners cash their LP in for, because they have a better isk/lp ratio than the items from the normal LP stores.
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o and if you ruin the price on that
The price on normal LP items has been crashing hardcore for a while now. It's already 'ruined' in that it's a shadow of what it once was. This all happened before FW missions. Why? Because the value of LP is self correcting. More people started taking advantage of the easy hi sec LP flow, and the value of those LP dropped.
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o you will ruin their gameplay with that easy-mode LP farming abuse. Think of all that highsec mission bears
High sec missions should be less profitable than low sec missions. Working as intended, as far as I can see.
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o you will totally ruin the average non-FW missionrunner's gameplay.
No, because the LP payoff for high sec L4's is a tiny amount of your total income. Most of it is in bounties, if you are speed running missions. If you loot and salvage the correct missions, you can earn a ton more there.
Pretty much all the payoff for FW missions is the LP's. There are no bounties to speak off and not much loot or salvage either.
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0oO0oOoOo0o
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Posted - 2009.10.15 05:49:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Ulstan
The 'special FW items' are usually the ones the FW mission runners cash their LP in for, because they have a better isk/lp ratio than the items from the normal LP stores.
That's not right. I have seen FW missionrunners offering CNR BPCs on a daily basis and getting the CNR prices down, when it should go up after the ban of macro missionrunners in the 'unholy rage' campaign. And it's easy to explain why. The special FW store items are nice, but there is not a big market for them, you can't sell a million LP every week with just the exclusive FW items.
Quote:
The price on normal LP items has been crashing hardcore for a while now. It's already 'ruined' in that it's a shadow of what it once was. This all happened before FW missions. Why? Because the value of LP is self correcting. More people started taking advantage of the easy hi sec LP flow, and the value of those LP dropped.
Do you read the devblogs sometimes ? The constant devaluation was caused by macro farmers, once they got banned the prices started to go up again. Now FW missionrunners are ruining them. They can do 10x more LP in the same time compared to a highsec missionrunner, without the need of good skills or expensive ships. In addition to that they only have to pay half the price for the CNR BPCs, that's not balanced.
Quote:
No, because the LP payoff for high sec L4's is a tiny amount of your total income. Most of it is in bounties, if you are speed running missions. If you loot and salvage the correct missions, you can earn a ton more there.
Pretty much all the payoff for FW missions is the LP's. There are no bounties to speak off and not much loot or salvage either.
That's not true, for speed missionrunning the LP are an important part. Even in the long missions with lots of bounties, for example Gurista Extravaganza, you get like 20 million in bounties and 7.5k lp, in short missions, such as Right Hand of Zazzmatazz, the LPs are a much bigger par than bounties.
But it's not only about highsec missionrunners. My friend does level 5 missions in lowsec, no bounties, loot and salvage isn't much better than from level 4 missions, 70-80% of his earnings come from LPs (he gets around 60000 LP for an average mission). He has to risk an expensive ship, and he has to have skills, yet he earns less LP per hour than the FW mission exploiter, who rejects all missions but the ones 2 jumps away and does like 80k LP per hour. In addition to that the FW exploiter pays only 250k lp for CNR BPC. That has nothing to do with balance, if you fail to see that you are either blind or biased.
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Kade Jeekin
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2009.10.15 11:00:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Kade Jeekin on 15/10/2009 11:02:29 So, FW Missions were too hard. CCP made them easier but still not many people did them. Then they take out the 4h refusal timer and standing loss, and decrease FW LP store costs.
Also, they allowed MWD and PVP fits to be used for missions, on the basis that you'd have to PVP your way through to the mission site. Now people are farming the missions, cherry picking mission sites to avoid hostiles, and are escorting their PVE fits to the target systems.
Bit sad really. Some people need to HTFU.
Edit: I say, remove FW missions, give LP for plexing. Plex capture to require elimination of NPCs. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity --------------------------------------- |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.10.15 14:45:00 -
[114]
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o
That's not right. I have seen FW missionrunners offering CNR BPCs on a daily basis and getting the CNR prices down
CNR prices are not down. They used to be 300m. Now they are up over 600m. Is there some figure you think they 'should' be at?
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o when it should go up after the ban of macro missionrunners in the 'unholy rage' campaign
It did go up. It went up dramatically. It should be slowly lowering now, as the supply of LP's increases. It took time for people to realize the supply of CNR's and LP's had taken a big hit and that it might be profitable for them to run now.
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o And it's easy to explain why. The special FW store items are nice, but there is not a big market for them, you can't sell a million LP every week with just the exclusive FW items.
Yes you will once the navy dominix and navy apoc are deployed :D
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o
Do you read the devblogs sometimes ? The constant devaluation was caused by macro farmers, once they got banned the prices started to go up again. Now FW missionrunners are ruining them. They can do 10x more LP in the same time compared to a highsec missionrunner, without the need of good skills or expensive ships. In addition to that they only have to pay half the price for the CNR BPCs, that's not balanced.
How is it not balanced? Low sec FW missions *should* be much more lucrative than perfectly safe L4 missions. If you think they are too lucrative, feel free to run them yourself. You just finished saying that anyone could do them, no matter how poor or how low their skills were, so there is 0 barrier to entry.
Of course it's not like you need good skills or expensive ships to do normal L4 missions in high sec either, so I'm not sure what you're complaining about. A couple noobs in drakes can do them.
Quote:
That's not true, for speed missionrunning the LP are an important part.
No, not really. Because the missions you speed run, have the crappiest LP payouts. The auto adjuster makes missions that get completed very quickly have very low LP rewards. The bounties, loot, and salvage are a much more significant portion of the income than LP.
L4 high sec mission runners are insulated from a crash in LP in ways that FW mission runners are not, since basically all of the value from an FW mission comes from the LP, which isn't true of L4 high sec mission running.
Quote: But it's not only about highsec missionrunners. My friend does level 5 missions in lowsec, no bounties, loot and salvage isn't much better than from level 4 missions, 70-80% of his earnings come from LPs (he gets around 60000 LP for an average mission)
I think everyone realizes L5's are not a terribly good source of income and basically just a way to tank your faction standings to empires and get lots of tags. In that hour he spends getting 60,000 LP he could have run 4 L4 hi sec missions.
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Jintra Jin'tak
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Posted - 2009.10.21 12:47:00 -
[115]
FW Missions itself are fine in reward and mechanic. How to get FW missions on the other side, isn't. Change the standing-loss-free cherry picking into the "decline 2 in x minutes and get a standing loss" non-FW mission mechanic and it will be fine. Decrease of ISK/LP per hour due to (mostly) more travel time and sucky "kill that pos" missions. That would encourage people to get into larger 4-6 man gangs (instead of 2-people-gangs), thus encouraging same-side interaction and -due to more systems to be traveled- small gang warfare.
As ever, it's just theory and some minds will find ways arround that to get "safe" LP/ISK but that was and will ever be the case.
(please bare with my grammar, not a native)
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