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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.09.08 19:01:00 -
[1]
Now it has been announced or intentions made to nerf the Titan, with the new Doomsday weapon only affecting 1 target.
It may now appear that the Titan will no longer be the "I win major battles" ship, it once was.
So, who thinks the Titan BPC market will still be as rosy after the November "Dominion" patch.
Titans 4U, and the EBANK Titan BPC program might not see their estimated profits on all BPC's that come out after the patch.
Discuss!!
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.09.08 19:10:00 -
[2]
I don't see it as a nerf, more of a change of roles. They will still be the I win button, you'll just have to go Diablo on the button instead of
1. Drop Titan 2. Run doomsday
Now instead it will be
1. Drop titan fleet 2. Run new titan weapon over the course of the next few minutes
The issue with Titans has always been they never had given enough time for a proper response once one shows up on the battlefield. |
Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.08 19:26:00 -
[3]
As Kazzac said, it'll be a change of role rather than a complete nerf. That having been said, if the titan copy ventures were smart, they diversified their holdings into motherships instead of just buying 4 titan prints.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2009.09.08 20:03:00 -
[4]
Ever see the flip side of the coin?
Instead of Alliances holding 5-10 Titans, they hold 20-30 Titans... Like K. says, Drop fleet of Titans then DD. If alliances still want the I WIN Button they are going to have to have more Titans. Buying a Titan BPO would be stupid when all that ISK could be used in making a few Titans, this would make the BPCs much higher demand.
It all depends on how alliances want to spend their ISK. BPCs are more attractive at least in my opinion.
Lets assume an alliance as the resources to build four Titans and the ISK to buy a Titan BPO.
Which is better.
1) The alliance buys a single Titan BPO, and takes over a year to build four of the exact same Titan. 2) The alliance buys four BPCs of their choice, build four Titans in the space of four months.
I do however see there may be a slowdown on sales, not until the patch however.
Amarr for Life |
Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.08 20:09:00 -
[5]
Originally by: SencneS Ever see the flip side of the coin?
Instead of Alliances holding 5-10 Titans, they hold 20-30 Titans... Like K. says, Drop fleet of Titans then DD. If alliances still want the I WIN Button they are going to have to have more Titans. Buying a Titan BPO would be stupid when all that ISK could be used in making a few Titans, this would make the BPCs much higher demand.
It all depends on how alliances want to spend their ISK. BPCs are more attractive at least in my opinion.
Lets assume an alliance as the resources to build four Titans and the ISK to buy a Titan BPO.
Which is better.
1) The alliance buys a single Titan BPO, and takes over a year to build four of the exact same Titan. 2) The alliance buys four BPCs of their choice, build four Titans in the space of four months.
I do however see there may be a slowdown on sales, not until the patch however.
The small error in your math is that a titan's build time is roughly half the copy time, so in that year an alliance would be able to build 8 hulls off of a single bpo.
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Dzil
Caldari Sausage Banking
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Posted - 2009.09.08 20:19:00 -
[6]
I imagine the titan BPC market will probably tank from this. That said, I'll let my T4U investment ride for now, as the investment self collateralizes and thus represents probably my safest investment to date.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.09.08 20:38:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau
The small error in your math is that a titan's build time is roughly half the copy time, so in that year an alliance would be able to build 8 hulls off of a single bpo.
There is also the massive liability that a BPO entails, and the trend for the last 6 months has been alliances slowly bleeding off their industrial wings in favor of outsourcing as often as possible (or where it makes sense) to empire corps. |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2009.09.08 20:42:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau The small error in your math is that a titan's build time is roughly half the copy time, so in that year an alliance would be able to build 8 hulls off of a single bpo.
My bad I've been out of EVE for three weeks and was thinking of the wrong number, but the outcome is the same..
The alliance only has enough resources to build four Titans. So now they could have four Titans of their choice with four BPCs and only take about 45 days. Or buy the BPO and take 6 months to build four of exactly the same Titan.
Even with the much narrower production time the result is the same.
Amarr for Life |
Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.09.08 20:47:00 -
[9]
OMG, the sky is falling
I am sure that the Titan will not be a Rookie Ship. I am sure you will be able to fit 3 new DeathStar Lasers to it and 2 round pop Capitals with a 20 sec ROF and 20 sec lock time or something like that.
They'll probably boost the defenses to go with it since it will now be used to actually sit on the field for more than 45 secs to pop off a DD.
It will still be the pimp daddy
Pick Three: Caldari/PVP/Solo/Success |
The Slagh
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Posted - 2009.09.09 04:38:00 -
[10]
Titan prices have fallen significantly. Selling on Sell Orders for < 60 billion.
Nobody wants an undockable expensive superdread. It's like motherships all over again.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.09.09 07:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: The Slagh Titan prices have fallen significantly. Selling on Sell Orders for < 60 billion.
Nobody wants an undockable expensive superdread. It's like motherships all over again.
I agree that best thing you can do atm with mothership is selling it and getting pile of carriers instead plus roqual should you for some reason really need that clone vat bay, however I think Titans will not be as useless as they will be still able to do jump portals. So even if their targeted DD will be useless they would be used as cloaking mobile jump bridges.
Considering that single consellation usually net's around 35 bil / month in moongoo it is possible that alliances who build titans will get their own BPO's unless current BPC prices will fall considerably. It's quite reasonable if you plan to build 5+ titans and considering the speed those things are produced currently most alliances seem to plan indeed cook more than 5 of them in row.
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RaTTuS
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.09.09 07:50:00 -
[12]
Titans4U is a long term thing anyway - so no worries TBH -- 3 Titans Lottery
InEve | Capital |
Xetal Maelstrom
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Posted - 2009.09.09 10:32:00 -
[13]
My understanding is that the new DD will do a great deal more damage to 1 target.
I think you'll need more details before there is a realistic appraisal of a Titan's value.
What is the cooldown of this new weapon? Can you still fit only one? Does it do enough damage to one-shot a carrier? What about a Dread or Mom? Are other changes being made, specifically to Titan's defenses?
Maybe I missed something, but I think you need these answers before you can make a real concrete judgment. I think what is pretty safe to say is that it is unlikely that Titan's will be made "Useless".
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.09.09 11:10:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom My understanding is that the new DD will do a great deal more damage to 1 target.
I'm also waiting for that information. Altho if it's only enough to pop single BS it's somewhat useless, if it's strong enough to threaten capitals then new 'I-Win' button will be Titan swarms one - shotting POS'es to avoid setting the stront timers.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.09.09 12:11:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom My understanding is that the new DD will do a great deal more damage to 1 target.
I'm also waiting for that information. Altho if it's only enough to pop single BS it's somewhat useless, if it's strong enough to threaten capitals then new 'I-Win' button will be Titan swarms one - shotting POS'es to avoid setting the stront timers.
Agreed, although I still don't see swarms of Titans in our future. The logistics to build even one is staggering enough as it is.
...although I should never really underestimate the metagaming basement dwellers around here with zero life. |
steveid
Renovatio Industries Galactic-Rangers
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Posted - 2009.09.09 12:29:00 -
[16]
This isn't a Titan need, its a Titan boost. Now instead of a situation where more than six Titans in a fight is useless titans will be dogpiled in obliterating conventional dread fleets. That ipo just became a lot better value. Think about what happened with the last change to titans remote dd, you didn't get less titans but more. Titans are the only ship that has yet to become the norm and as skills progress the number of Titan pilots will rise.
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Trigos Trilobi
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.09.09 12:38:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 09/09/2009 12:39:05 All the doomcalling is kinda hilarious considering the devs so far afaik have only stated that AoE doomsday will be changed into some kind of single target ability, with not even a hint of any details on that particular change or other related changes (to other ship attributes&role, sovereign mechanics etc stuff that all has an impact on how good/bad titans will be). It's way too early to even tell if it's really going to be a nerf or a buff :P
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2009.09.09 14:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau
The small error in your math is that a titan's build time is roughly half the copy time, so in that year an alliance would be able to build 8 hulls off of a single bpo.
There is also the massive liability that a BPO entails, and the trend for the last 6 months has been alliances slowly bleeding off their industrial wings in favor of outsourcing as often as possible (or where it makes sense) to empire corps.
Yes, people should do this more frequently. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule |
Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.09.09 20:06:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Agreed, although I still don't see swarms of Titans in our future. The logistics to build even one is staggering enough as it is.
...although I should never really underestimate the metagaming basement dwellers around here with zero life.
To be honest Titan logisticks is not THAT bad. Takes just pile of isk and waiting for a while to get it done after you have dragged your capital shipyards to whatever sov 4 system you are using to build them. Not to mention it get's a lot easier once you have first titan bcos of that bridge thingy on it. Materials can moved in few trips with some mineral compression without any jump bridges, altho bridges are useful if you want to install additional capital shipyards, as they need to be dragged out there in freighter. Most alliances have outpost somewhere in their territory that can be used to build needed components in relatively fast manner and after that it's just running between POS and station for a little while in freighter.
Currently even relatively small alliances holding only few consellations have multiple titans, assuming they are not renters and have acsess to that insane fountain of isk that dyspo moons are.
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Tekota
legion industries ltd Veni Vidi Vici
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Posted - 2009.09.10 02:14:00 -
[20]
If it were just the titan changes on their own I'd be inclined to go with SencneS thought that if anything it might increase demand; I can't see CCP obsoleting their "ultimate" ship class any time soon (or if they do it won't be for long).
However with the new sov changes slated (http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=691) who's to say what's going to happen really. Could result in a "lot" of ships getting blown up in the new scramble for space, and my hunch would be it will put a stop on new titans being built for a while (as folks secure their territory to a point where they feel safe starting a long build). How long this lull lasts is anyones guess, probably not all that long. Only thing that's looking reasonably sure is that ice is going to tank hard for a bit.
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Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.10 02:19:00 -
[21]
The lack of Sov 4 invulnerability, if it turns out to be true, will see a lot more dead baby titans and motherships as war-hungry fleets hunt them down. This will likely have an increase in price for those ships as only alliances with sufficiently large fleets to defend their towers will be able to.
To a lesser degree, I could see certain R64 reaction towers also being targeted.
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six
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Posted - 2009.09.10 02:36:00 -
[22]
A lot will depend on the specifics of implementation, but there is a good chance at Titans being more usable. Right now they are very vulnerable post DD. This might change in the new mechanics, making them great ships to have in a fleet for removing key firepower in the opposing side due to heavy-handed focused firepower with less risk. Who knows.
For now, Titans are still the most expensive ship in EVE and many people want them just to have them. Even if BPCs prices go down (which they will over time for sure), the BPOs themselves are not bad investments. Everyone will adapt to whatever happens anyway, or die, as it is in the markets.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.09.10 04:15:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau The lack of Sov 4 invulnerability, if it turns out to be true, will see a lot more dead baby titans and motherships as war-hungry fleets hunt them down. This will likely have an increase in price for those ships as only alliances with sufficiently large fleets to defend their towers will be able to.
To a lesser degree, I could see certain R64 reaction towers also being targeted.
Depends how sov changes will actually be implemented. That devblog was rather vague about it for now. For all we know it might mean as well that only towers in 'border' systems can be attacked and only buy guys who are in position to contest the sov in that system. Probably the system will not be that restrictive ofc but we will have to wait and see. Even if they get rid of sov 4 invunerability there is still a lot towers in sov 3 systems that might be attacked but are not attacked on regular basis. Doubt that they will get rid of cyno jammers, cyno beacons and jump bridges anytime soon also.
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Mroe Bree
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.09.10 05:36:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Mroe Bree on 10/09/2009 05:36:16 It is definitely too early to predict the effects of sov changes and the titan nerf.
However, as food for thought I ask you to remember the last time CCP was able to "balance" anything. The usual MO is to hamfistedly flail in the general direction of the nerf target until it stops twitching. And overnerf some completely unrelated things for good measure. I'm positive the devs don't play Eve in any meaningful way and are becoming almost as out of touch re: game mechanics as Dr. E is re: game economy.
My personal gut feel is most of current player sov 0.0 will stop being quite so appealing, with a resulting mass migration of people back to lowsec, highsec, w-space and NPC 0.0. Oh, and "info specialist" is definitely onto something with his latest tip. But he's about a quarter too early.
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Tesal
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Posted - 2009.09.10 06:04:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mroe Bree Edited by: Mroe Bree on 10/09/2009 05:36:16 It is definitely too early to predict the effects of sov changes and the titan nerf.
However, as food for thought I ask you to remember the last time CCP was able to "balance" anything. The usual MO is to hamfistedly flail in the general direction of the nerf target until it stops twitching. And overnerf some completely unrelated things for good measure. I'm positive the devs don't play Eve in any meaningful way and are becoming almost as out of touch re: game mechanics as Dr. E is re: game economy.
My personal gut feel is most of current player sov 0.0 will stop being quite so appealing, with a resulting mass migration of people back to lowsec, highsec, w-space and NPC 0.0. Oh, and "info specialist" is definitely onto something with his latest tip. But he's about a quarter too early.
I think this doesn't really change anything except making war on big powers with asymetric means possible and making the zerg rush more likely. Time to get your war on. I will consider coming out of retirement if the patch allows me to kill you all. also...
I will kill you. |
Mankil
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Posted - 2009.09.10 14:50:00 -
[26]
I thought the new DD was going to be a directional weapon, but stil area of effect (e.g. 90 degrees in front of you). Has there been something else that said the DD would be limited to one ship. I couldn't find anything on the dev blogs. Was it on another site?
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.09.11 05:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: SencneS
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria ....the trend for the last 6 months has been alliances slowly bleeding off their industrial wings in favor of outsourcing as often as possible (or where it makes sense) to empire corps.
This... I've seen this as well. I accentually stumbled into an opportunity before I went on vacation. I ultimately had to turn it down due to timing and me making my entire Industry ability available for use for EBANK.
I think this can be blamed on high end moons being the isk fountains they are. Back when isk was more limited for alliances it was worth it to do industrial operations yourself to spare some isk. Suff like organizing alliance mining ops and so on. But if you are swimming in isk it's a lot less hassle to whack a bag of isk on the table to get what you need and use the fleet time instead to protect your isk fountains or to try take some more of them. Unless something big happens with moon minerals this trend will keep going for alliances who are in control of their own territory and reaping the benefits of those moons.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.09.11 15:15:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Carniflex
I think this can be blamed on high end moons being the isk fountains they are. Back when isk was more limited for alliances it was worth it to do industrial operations yourself to spare some isk. Suff like organizing alliance mining ops and so on. But if you are swimming in isk it's a lot less hassle to whack a bag of isk on the table to get what you need and use the fleet time instead to protect your isk fountains or to try take some more of them. Unless something big happens with moon minerals this trend will keep going for alliances who are in control of their own territory and reaping the benefits of those moons.
Makes sense. Time is wealth and anything which afford what is more or less a war machine to make more war is worth more. |
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