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stravros vatta
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Posted - 2009.09.11 13:25:00 -
[1]
i have bin looking into making isk through purchasing minerals and manufacturing ships, but i look on the market and low and behold there are ships there that are priced as low as 20% of the price of the minerals that go into it i guess there is a mindset that the minerals you use are free if you mine them but those people don't seem to realize that they are essentially selling at a loss i looked into the numbers for several different ship types and the only area that the trend seems to fail are battle ships
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Ministers Of Destruction.
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Posted - 2009.09.11 13:57:00 -
[2]
Welcome to eve
¼¼ --
If there's no profit to be made you need to travel further afield.
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Tesal
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Posted - 2009.09.11 13:58:00 -
[3]
Melt them down. Its a profit of 10m or 20m for every ship you melt if you can get 20% below mineral cost. also...
I will kill you. |
stravros vatta
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Posted - 2009.09.11 14:03:00 -
[4]
i thought of melting them down and did the math the cost on the market was just above that of the reprocess value
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Stefan F
Enrave Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.09.11 14:36:00 -
[5]
Seems quite obvious to make t1 BS from the stuff that you mined, as it is easier to transport and the slight margin makes up for the bpo oppurtunity cost of making bpcs.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
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Posted - 2009.09.11 14:45:00 -
[6]
Originally by: stravros vatta i thought of melting them down and did the math the cost on the market was just above that of the reprocess value
Then that's why the price isn't any lower.
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Rose Bonifacio
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Posted - 2009.09.11 15:49:00 -
[7]
If your mineral cost is 20% higher than the sell price and the reprocessing mineral value is just under the same sell price, then you probably have a ME0 blueprint with an under perfect material efficiency skill. So you have to either improve you skills and ME research your BPO or find another item to make.
Rose.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.11 18:05:00 -
[8]
The OP is forgetting one essential part of selling stuff...
REAL LIFE TIME!
If selling something cheap will save me having to change my order every 5 minutes to beat the people who undercut me, I'll do it! As I'm earning 50m/hour doing L4 missions, that is FAR more profitable for me than playing the 0.01 ISK game!
I take the minerals I get from mission loot, refine them, build BS or BC's, and sell them at a relative low price. This saves me a lot of time.... I don't CARE if I could have gotten 3m more by playing trader!
You may see it as below-price. Other might see it as the optimal price for their play-style. 'Opportunity Cost' is not necessarily based on ISK...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Noonesoski
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Posted - 2009.09.11 18:20:00 -
[9]
If your time is money, why spend time building ships and selling them for less than the materials you made them with sepperately? Why not just sell the minerals cheap? Wow! LOL
Originally by: Kerfira The OP is forgetting one essential part of selling stuff...
REAL LIFE TIME!
If selling something cheap will save me having to change my order every 5 minutes to beat the people who undercut me, I'll do it! As I'm earning 50m/hour doing L4 missions, that is FAR more profitable for me than playing the 0.01 ISK game!
I take the minerals I get from mission loot, refine them, build BS or BC's, and sell them at a relative low price. This saves me a lot of time.... I don't CARE if I could have gotten 3m more by playing trader!
You may see it as below-price. Other might see it as the optimal price for their play-style. 'Opportunity Cost' is not necessarily based on ISK...
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.11 18:37:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Noonesoski If your time is money, why spend time building ships and selling them for less than the materials you made them with sepperately? Why not just sell the minerals cheap? Wow! LOL
For the simple reason that selling minerals is even MORE inefficient and time-consuming than selling same minerals in the form of a ship.....
Making a ship is easy, much easier than hauling the minerals and managing the 7 orders. Right-click on the BPO and click manufacture. Put ship up for sale 1-3m under the nearest other sell order. All done in the same station....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Brock Dillinger
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2009.09.11 18:45:00 -
[11]
Quote: large numbers of ships are being sold at a loss
And?
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Noonesoski
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Posted - 2009.09.11 19:11:00 -
[12]
If you say so, where are you selling those ships by the way?
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Noonesoski If your time is money, why spend time building ships and selling them for less than the materials you made them with sepperately? Why not just sell the minerals cheap? Wow! LOL
For the simple reason that selling minerals is even MORE inefficient and time-consuming than selling same minerals in the form of a ship.....
Making a ship is easy, much easier than hauling the minerals and managing the 7 orders. Right-click on the BPO and click manufacture. Put ship up for sale 1-3m under the nearest other sell order. All done in the same station....
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.11 22:08:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Noonesoski If you say so, where are you selling those ships by the way?
In my mission system of.c..... Anything else would waste too much money by spending time on transport! Not telling where of.c. Where I mission is a closely guarded secret (this is my posting alt by the way).
I earn 820k ISK per MINUTE missioning! I can't make that much extra profit by moving the ship elsewhere! If someone else wants to... LET THEM!
The ships have always sold within a maximum of 3 days!
However, you are missing the point. It is not a matter of what I do! What matters is that a large part of EVE's population (the mission runners) get their minerals more or less as a 'side product' from missioning. Selling them is easier in ship form, and we don't care if we don't optimise to the last ISK in profit. Thus you get people selling at lower prices. Among the other mission runners I speak to, most gets rid of their loot minerals this way. Its simply the most effective way.
The OP opened this subject, and I just provided some insight into why this is. There's just a different perspective between how traders/builders see things, and how mission runners see things.
Traders/builders have spent a lot of money and a little time acquiring their goods, so they NEED to get their money back BEFORE they can make profit. We OTOH have spent some time looting and no money to acquire our loot minerals, so even if we sell a bit lower it doesn't affect our profit much. Remember, minerals are just a small part of mission profits (my current average is 18% of total mission income, though still about 2/3 in value of what a hulk can mine).
A matter of perspective really. Traders think in ISK, we usually think in time.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Signore Kaeota
Caldari Caelum Incognitum
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Posted - 2009.09.12 02:36:00 -
[14]
Hi. Quick suggesntion if I may? Eve has these thing, there quite nifty really. They float in space, you know? I think their called... errm, wht was it... 'stargates'? May I suggest you use one if you're current region isn't a good place to sell ships?
p.s. I'm just joking around, not flaming you ^-^
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SetrakDark
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Posted - 2009.09.12 03:15:00 -
[15]
Edited by: SetrakDark on 12/09/2009 03:15:07 Kerfira, your posts make no sense. Theyre so senseless that i cant even engage them constructively.
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Capt Fossil
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.12 03:18:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Noonesoski I earn 820k ISK per MINUTE missioning!
Every minute, every time? My what a boring game this must be for you.
41M an hour?????? You doin lvl 5's solo in a GM ship?
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.12 09:25:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Capt Fossil
Originally by: Kerfira I earn 820k ISK per MINUTE missioning!
Every minute, every time? My what a boring game this must be for you.
41M an hour?????? You doin lvl 5's solo in a GM ship?
Nope. Just a plain old Golem!
Read this thread for enlightenment! It's a statistics thread I've created where I present how I do missions and what I earn from them. Note that the number given in this thread is slightly higher than in the quoted one. This is because LP price has shot through the roof since the macro'ers got banned (MORE than compensating for reduced income from salvage).
As a matter of fact, I'm a staunch supporter of CCP NERFING high-sec L4's income! If they halved it, nothing would please me more for game balance!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Bellac
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Posted - 2009.09.12 09:31:00 -
[18]
back on topic
I know many modules and ships are sold below mineral value - but in my experience this doesnt happen as often as you think. You have to remember that a well researched print and all the relevant skills to lvl 5 make a huge difference to manufacturing costs. As already said above - if you find a big supply of expensive items below mineral value - buy them - melt them down and sell the minerals at a profit. Keep doing it and you will become very wealthy indeed.
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.09.12 11:00:00 -
[19]
i wish i could reprocess subsystems ...
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Noonesoski
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Posted - 2009.09.12 12:49:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Kerfira Insane stuff that doesn't make much sense.
Well, I get the feeling that you are of the "What I mine, mission for, etc, is free, right?" sort so I will let you be. I read through the first two pages of the link you posted. Rather amusing, it was.
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Signore Kaeota
Caldari Caelum Incognitum
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Posted - 2009.09.12 12:56:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Noonesoski
Originally by: Kerfira Insane stuff that doesn't make much sense.
Well, I get the feeling that you are of the "What I mine, mission for, etc, is free, right?" sort so I will let you be. I read through the first two pages of the link you posted. Rather amusing, it was.
To be picky, he's of the opinion that:
'I do L4 missions, and selling my loot properly takes too much time. So I refine it! But selling the minerals properly takes too much time. So I make a BS out of it! But it still takes too long. So I price it UNDER what it's worth!'
he actually does no mining, yet still F*cks miners / producers profit.
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Noonesoski
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Posted - 2009.09.12 13:01:00 -
[22]
Take from this that miners need to vertically integrate. Invest in some BPO's and manufacture from what you mine, but don't sell what you manufacture less than what the minerals you mine are worth, please.
Originally by: Signore Kaeota
Originally by: Noonesoski
Originally by: Kerfira Insane stuff that doesn't make much sense.
Well, I get the feeling that you are of the "What I mine, mission for, etc, is free, right?" sort so I will let you be. I read through the first two pages of the link you posted. Rather amusing, it was.
To be picky, he's of the opinion that:
'I do L4 missions, and selling my loot properly takes too much time. So I refine it! But selling the minerals properly takes too much time. So I make a BS out of it! But it still takes too long. So I price it UNDER what it's worth!'
he actually does no mining, yet still F*cks miners / producers profit.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.12 13:36:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Kerfira on 12/09/2009 13:43:22
Originally by: Signore Kaeota To be picky, he's of the opinion that:
'I do L4 missions, and selling my loot properly takes too much time. So I refine it! But selling the minerals properly takes too much time. So I make a BS out of it! But it still takes too long. So I price it UNDER what it's worth!'
he actually does no mining, yet still F*cks miners / producers profit.
You got it right! Participating in the trading game will earn me LESS than selling under price and spend my time on missions instead. My guess is a large number of mission runners do the same....
Note that I don't think it SHOULD be this way! My personal opinion is that missions should drop very little (if any at all) reprocessable loot. Mining should be the sole way minerals are created (yes, this include making some other solution for drones too)!
Originally by: Noonesoski Well, I get the feeling that you are of the "What I mine, mission for, etc, is free, right?" sort so I will let you be.
I'm not! If you look above, the reason for why I do things the way I do is because it is more profitable for me that way!
Originally by: Noonesoski Take from this that miners need to vertically integrate. Invest in some BPO's and manufacture from what you mine, but don't sell what you manufacture less than what the minerals you mine are worth, please.
As a large portion of minerals come from mission runners, this'll have little effect. As a SIDE EFFECT from missioning, I 'mine' with my missiles almost 2/3 of what an optimal high-sec Hulk pilot can do (based on value, not composition). How many mission runners are there compared to miners????
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Signore Kaeota
Caldari Caelum Incognitum
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Posted - 2009.09.12 13:44:00 -
[24]
I wasn't having a go at you personally .. with the amount of disclaimers I need I think I may as well just make it my sig... actually that's a good idea.
/goes to change his sig to apologise for post contents.
CCP, F*CK YOU! Get rid of the time flux (yes, I'm going to post this every time I get a time flux... and I have a LOT of alts if you want to start banning me for it)
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Cardiana
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Posted - 2009.09.12 13:54:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Signore Kaeota I wasn't having a go at you personally .. with the amount of disclaimers I need I think I may as well just make it my sig... actually that's a good idea.
/goes to change his sig to apologise for post contents.
CCP, F*CK YOU! Get rid of the time flux (yes, I'm going to post this every time I get a time flux... and I have a LOT of alts if you want to start banning me for it)
so you want the forums to be full of spam?
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Signore Kaeota
Caldari Caelum Incognitum
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Posted - 2009.09.12 14:33:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Cardiana so you want the forums to be full of spam?
*sigh* I know why they did it, really I do. I run a forum and admin three others and know the bot spam, and I saw it here personally. The thing is, five minutes? one minute would do. A _dedicated_ bot could still spam, but it'd take what, an hour to get all the boards? Five minutes just ****es off people who actually post. -_-_-_-
I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for.
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Noonesoski
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Posted - 2009.09.12 14:40:00 -
[27]
So, you are saying it would take to long to update your orders while you are missioning? I find that hard to believe...
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 12/09/2009 13:43:22
Originally by: Signore Kaeota To be picky, he's of the opinion that:
'I do L4 missions, and selling my loot properly takes too much time. So I refine it! But selling the minerals properly takes too much time. So I make a BS out of it! But it still takes too long. So I price it UNDER what it's worth!'
he actually does no mining, yet still F*cks miners / producers profit.
You got it right! Participating in the trading game will earn me LESS than selling under price and spend my time on missions instead. My guess is a large number of mission runners do the same....
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.12 15:01:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Noonesoski So, you are saying it would take to long to update your orders while you are missioning? I find that hard to believe...
When you are running 2 or 3 missioning accounts, it does
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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MightyRhinox
Minmatar Rhinox Heavy Industries Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.12 18:11:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Noonesoski If your time is money, why spend time building ships and selling them for less than the materials you made them with sepperately? Why not just sell the minerals cheap? Wow! LOL
Ah that's where the true beauty of opportunity cost comes in, opportunity cost means economic profit is almost always zero (with the exceptions of monopoly, oligopoly and monopolistic competition). If your calculations are showing that people are losing value in their trades, that means you've missed a value calculation somewhere. The inverse, you calculating your economic profit as larger than anything else means you&ve missed the same value calculation somewhere.
Now, if another player is able to maintain there economic profit at 0 (keeping it above a negative), undercut you and make an accounting profit they have a competitive advantage over you and you're the one who's actually losing out.
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kangwo
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Posted - 2009.09.12 23:05:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tesal Melt them down. Its a profit of 10m or 20m for every ship you melt if you can get 20% below mineral cost.
isint this cash for clunkers of eve?
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