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Raw Matters
KRAUTZ RULEZ KRAUTZ-FEDERATION
1
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Posted - 2011.09.18 13:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi,
As there is currently a new Dev assigned to re-balance/adjust ships, I'd like to give some (hopefully objective) feedback on the Minmatar ships:
In general all Minmatar ships are fine and fun to fly (if you like the thrill), there is no general fail design or major issue since the projectile weapons have been fixed. The great flexibility of Minmatar ships make them an excellent small gang choice, while the fragility and the usual lack of a backup plan adjusts them in terms of balance. There are however some details on some ships that makes them sub-par if compared to the other races counterparts.
General issues
The most obvious ones are the electronic ships. While the Rapier and the Huggin are fine and fulfill their role, the Hyena and the T1 variants (Belicose and Vigil) are lacking to a point where they are rarely seen in battles. The target painter bonus is generally seen as sub-par as thanks to the stacking mechanics and the rather minor effect (if compared to the other electronic modules) makes it in general more useful to just put 1 target painter on each ship than to have a dedicated target painter. Many suggested fittings (e.g. on Battleclinic) seem to agree on this, as very often the fitting does not contain a target painter module.
There are two possible approaches imo: For once the target painter bonus could be greatly enhanced to make bringing a TP ship a significant game-changer, or (my preferred solution) to change the TP bonus on the T1 frigs to a webifier bonus. A range of 20km on the Vigil and 30km on the Belicose and Hyena feels appropriate and wouldn't steal the show from the T2 cruisers as the T1 variants are much more fragile and harder to fit. This would in addition serve as a counter to the current trend for very fast ships.
Another issue is the targeting range on Battleships and some others: those sometimes can shoot a much greater distance than they can actually lock a target. For example the Maelstrom can shoot far over 150 km but requires two sensor boosters and/or fleet bonus to be actually able to reach that range. As I understand that electronics are a general weakness in Minmatar ships, there should at least a minor buff to the targeting range, like 10 km for Battleships.
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Raw Matters
KRAUTZ RULEZ KRAUTZ-FEDERATION
1
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Posted - 2011.09.18 13:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ship specific issues
Belicose: see above.
Scythe: The Minmatar mining cruiser is by far the worst choice for mining, however starting pilots often don't have any other choice (and it's not meant to be the final mining ship anyways). The logistic bonus however is completely useless as it is very situational and does - on it's own - not justify to bring a Scythe to battle at any time. I strongly suggest to change this to a shield transfer bonus as on the Osprey, even if that makes the T1 logistics all look a bit more alike, but well there is only armor and shield to repair. ;)
Scimitar: While the ship is obviously not designed to be a primary PvE logistic ship, it is thanks to its very low signature radius an interesting alternative for hit-and-run fleet gangs. The tracking link bonus however is again very situational and as of the slot layout usually skipped unless you absolutely know that you will need it. With the current 4/5/4 slot setup it is possible to put a balanced speed-tank-while-repping fitting on the ship, however only if you skip the tracking link. I therefore suggest to add another med-slot to this ship to at least have a spare slot to fit a tracking link.
Panther: The Minmatar Black Ops shares the same issues with all other Black Ops ships, it just isn't reasonable to bring it into battle. While the Panther hits hard and is interestingly fast for a battle ship, it can neither gank more effectively as its T1 counter-part as of the lack of covert warp, nor does it have any backup plan in fleet war, almost forcing the pilot to sit on a safe spot so the jump portal back home is not in danger. There needs to be a general change in the Black Ops design to make these ships useful beyond a mobile fleet jumping device. In specific the Panther's speed boost seems to be sub-par if compared to the other Black Ops, as any smaller ship size can already easily out-maneuver the Panther. Either this bonus should be greatly increased, modified or replaced with a different, more helpful one. Ideas would be a web range bonus, optimal range bonus (to make it a sniper), or add a specific escape ability (e.g. +2 warp strength) in addition to the speed bonus.
Loki: The Loki is on its own a nice ship that is fun to fly, but if compared to the other T3 ships is severely underpowered. In almost all setups the Loki does either less DPS or tanks less or both if compared to similar setups of other T3s and therefore currently is only useful for the looks, Sansha hunting, fleet bonus, an improved (but very expensive) Vagabond or as a mediocre ranged sniper.
- First of all the targeting range and amount of targets is severely low on a T3. The Loki should in general receive a 10%-15% targeting range upgrade and an additional +2 targets. This would still leave the greatest weakness on the Loki - it's extremely low sensor strength - but at least allow it to do its basic role without having to put in sensor boosters.
- The defensive capabilities are sub-par if compared to the other ships and the Loki especially has no strength where it shines as the Amplification Node with it's signature reduction puts all the defense on being too fast to hit, which can be negated by a single webbifier and/or target painter, making this the worst possible choice. I suggest to either rework that sub-system in general or add an immunity to effects that lower the speed of the ship and/or increase the signature radius to make it an alternative.
- The Adaptive Augmenter gives the same armor resistance bonus as other T3 ships but not the boost to repair or armor. There needs to be a reasonable Minmatar alternative on this module as the slightly lower signature radius is automatically negated by the generally lower speed of armor tankers. An idea would be to boost remote armor repair in the same way as the Adaptive Shielding does (see below) and consider the Loki as the GÇ£fleet T3GÇ¥.
- The Adaptive Shielding system could be interesting if the remote repair modules wouldn't have such a low range. As it currently stands only non-moving ships can be reliably repaired as even at an orbit range of 3km, there is already a chance to escape the range of a medium repair system. The module definitely needs a range upgrade to at lest 3x the normal range. Alternatively the system could even receive a +500% range boost (as standard logistics) defining the Minmatar T3s as the GÇ£fleet T3sGÇ¥. This will not conflict with the role of real logistic ships, as the Loki lacks the power/capacitor to fit more than one remote repair module.
- The offensive sub-systems are mostly ok, although the Projectile Scoping array and the Covert Reconfiguration could use a slight tracking buff. The only big concern is the rate of fire you have with auto-cannons thanks to the firing speed boost, no other ship tears through ammunition as fast as the Loki. It might be a good idea to exchange the firing speed boost to a damage boost, which effectively would do the same just with less ammunition.
- The Chassis Optimization sub-system seems to be lacking a bit. There is no reasonable setup without an afterburner or MWD effectively making the Fuel Catalyst the better choice. I would suggest to change this sub-system to an MWD bonus, giving pilots a reasonable alternative.
That is my view on the current Minmatar ships so far, as always I welcome you to give feedback and/or add your ideas/viewpoints. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
0
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Posted - 2011.09.18 14:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Best way to balance Minmatar would be to revert the entire ammo/TE changes, tbqfh. Those changes compete with the supercap changes for the "most stupid balancing decision in recent years" prize. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6
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Posted - 2011.09.18 15:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Best way to balance Minmatar would be to revert the entire ammo/TE changes, tbqfh. Those changes compete with the supercap changes for the "most stupid balancing decision in recent years" prize.
Seconded. Specifically lose the damage buff short range ammo got as well as the TE changes. OP would have been better off going with one ship or topic like 'Minmatar e-war'
I had made a suggestion in the old F&I forums to have a light, medium, and heavy webifier. All would have the 10km range. The web strength for the three would be 60%, 75%, and 90% respectively. Here's the catch: in addition to higher fitting costs, the webifiers would all have a target signature resolution. The numbers I suggested were 40m, 80m, and 250m, again, respectively. I'll let you ponder the math on your own. For the purposes of this discussion the target painters under the new system would assist the heavier webifiers instead of compete with them. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
3
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Posted - 2011.09.18 16:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
I would keep EMP/PP/Fusion damage even (that was a fair enough change, to be honest) but certainly nerf the damage. |
Laechyd Eldgorn
draketrain
1
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Posted - 2011.09.18 18:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
I don't think we need strong webs back. Warp scrambler will effectively stop anything if need.
Original problem with minmatar ammo was, afaik, that only ammo which anyone wanted to use was like emp. In pretty similar way that only ammo ppl ever use on blasters is antimatter. They boosted something so PP and fusion actualyl became viable ammo which wasn't bad thing in that sense.
However now we have these fast guys orbiting outside web range while still dealing damage. If I am not totally wrong they should be risking to go inside web range to deal real damage, which doesn't really happen, thanks to tracking enhancers, pretty much.
Not to mention that on many ships autocannons deal pretty overpowered amount of dps while they have no real downside. I think sabre is most ridiculous example of all ships, still. Because it's so obvious that other ships of its class are total crap when you compare ehp, speed, dps and fitting requirements in general.
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Raw Matters
KRAUTZ RULEZ KRAUTZ-FEDERATION
1
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Posted - 2011.09.18 19:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
I think the ammunition change was a good one, as before each individual ammunition had its own range and damage mod, causing a lot of confusion. Now there are 3 categories (close/medium/high range) and the choice is basically the damage type.
I as well think the projectile weapons are in line with the other weapons. Blasters for example deal more damage, but are very limited in range, while auto-cannons deal slightly less damage but have the falloff advantage which basically means they cover the entire range from 0 to max range and can hit, although the damage does significantly decrease outside the optimal range (you can check this i.e. while using EFT and show the damage graph). In addition the artillery cannons while doing an impressive alpha, the sustained dps is much lower than with other ranged weapons as well as their range.
Regarding the Sabre: Minmatar are the specialists of hit and run tactics, therefore the best ship designed for this task is obviously a Minmatar ship, as much as the best ewar ship is Caldari. I do not see an issue here as Minmatar need to be good at something after all. ;)
Quote:However now we have these fast guys orbiting outside web range while still dealing damage. If I am not totally wrong they should be risking to go inside web range to deal real damage, which doesn't really happen, thanks to tracking enhancers, pretty much. I totally agree on this. Seeing Dramiels and Slicers all over the place nowadays not risking much thanks to their insane speed was one of the reasons why I suggested the web range increase even on the T1 ships so there is a counter available for everyone (who can spent a few days to skill Minmatar cruiser). |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
0
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Posted - 2011.09.18 19:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Raw Matters wrote:
Regarding the Sabre: Minmatar are the specialists of hit and run tactics, therefore the best ship designed for this task is obviously a Minmatar ship, as much as the best ewar ship is Caldari. I do not see an issue here as Minmatar need to be good at something after all. ;)
Hit and run tactics require speed, not damage-at-range. It's self-evidently absurd to have medium-range weapons on fast ships and shortest-range weapons on slow ships, especially those fast ships are actually about as good as the slow ships at those shortest ranges. Better balance would be achieved by swapping the falloffs of ACs with those of blasters, and reverting the TE changes. Then Minmatar would truly be "hit and run". |
Raw Matters
KRAUTZ RULEZ KRAUTZ-FEDERATION
1
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Posted - 2011.09.18 20:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Hit and run tactics require speed, not damage-at-range. It's self-evidently absurd to have medium-range weapons on fast ships and shortest-range weapons on slow ships, especially those fast ships are actually about as good as the slow ships at those shortest ranges. Better balance would be achieved by swapping the falloffs of ACs with those of blasters, and reverting the TE changes. Then Minmatar would truly be "hit and run". The maximum range of small ACs is 7km, medium are at 13.5km and large ones are at 27km at all-5 skills (not including module/ship boni), but this is 90% fall-off range, therefore the damage is dramatically reduced at the max range. An effective range is about half the max range, so you need to fit tracking enhancers to actually be able to deal reasonable damage at the ranges above. I would not consider this medium range.
Gallente ships can (are supposed to) counter their very low range by using MWDs and many Gallente blaster ships actually get a bonus on that one making them very fast, so I don't really get your point. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
0
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Posted - 2011.09.18 20:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ah, I must be misunderstanding. I was not aware that Minmatar ships were incapable of using MWDs. This is just as well, since a Minmatar ship with a MWD would be considerably faster and more agile than a Gallente counterpart, while possessing weapons of much greater range and similar applied damage. Just as well, really. |
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Raw Matters
KRAUTZ RULEZ KRAUTZ-FEDERATION
1
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Posted - 2011.09.18 20:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Ah, I must be misunderstanding. I was not aware that Minmatar ships were incapable of using MWDs. This is just as well, since a Minmatar ship with a MWD would be considerably faster and more agile than a Gallente counterpart, while possessing weapons of much greater range and similar applied damage. Just as well, really. Then we are back at the point: once blasters have you in range, they deal more damage that projectile weapons, if both can get in range, that sounds balanced to me. And as said: hitting someone in fall-off reduces your damage to a point where you do down to 25% of the original damage due to half-misses. So Minmatar can hit you a bit earlier, but with less damage. |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
67
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Posted - 2011.09.18 20:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
almost every issue said with minmitar ships can be said about other race ships.
black ops suck most t1 cruisers are terrible, each race seems to have 1-2 good ones then the rest are worthless for the most part. scimitar is fine
target painters might need a slight buff to the bonus though i can see how TP is meh compared to other EW. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
0
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Posted - 2011.09.18 20:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
Raw Matters wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Ah, I must be misunderstanding. I was not aware that Minmatar ships were incapable of using MWDs. This is just as well, since a Minmatar ship with a MWD would be considerably faster and more agile than a Gallente counterpart, while possessing weapons of much greater range and similar applied damage. Just as well, really. Then we are back at the point: once blasters have you in range, they deal more damage that projectile weapons.
Unfortunately, because we fly ships instead of turrets, the AC boats have greater DPS and tracking, and semi-selectable damage types, and hence applied more applied damage, as well as far superior range, than the armour-tanking blasterboats. So this suggests a slot layout change for Minmatar to force them into armour tanks, reducing their DPS, tracking and range to acceptable levels, while Gallente gets the shield tanks that increase their mobility to get into range and gives them a damage and tracking advantage when they get there.
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GizzyBoy
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
2
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Posted - 2011.09.19 11:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:
Unfortunately, because we fly ships instead of turrets, the AC boats have greater DPS and tracking, and semi-selectable damage types, and hence applied more applied damage, as well as far superior range, than the armour-tanking blasterboats. So this suggests a slot layout change for Minmatar to force them into armour tanks, reducing their DPS, tracking and range to acceptable levels, while Gallente gets the shield tanks that increase their mobility to get into range and gives them a damage and tracking advantage when they get there.
Lubbbs you, sadly i dont really like shields, and ive never understood that webbers are supposed to be a gal tool, yet we dont have a ship that gets a range boost like the bhall,
so basically some guy can kite you at 13-20km and warp scramble your gall ship. and even if you had a mwd fitted you wouldn't really be able to catch up, and youd have sig bloom issues due to mwd.
blaster boat pretty much stands no chance of matching the shield tacklers speed.
forgetting drones as a primary weapon, if you could land a web you might stand a chance to land some blaster dmg.
and then there's ammo, we only have one ammo type and that's antimatter. it would be nice if the negative effects of t2 ammo wern't so bad (less ship speed and decreased mobility)
It would be nice if we could have an explosive or emp warhead for some variation of dmg.
ultimately this would push the kite distance out to 30 km's but ac still have the tracking and selectable ammo type for this range where as gal would be pretty much screwed, but at least you'd be able to warp out, unless kiter commits.
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Raw Matters
KRAUTZ RULEZ KRAUTZ-FEDERATION
6
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Posted - 2011.09.19 17:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
GizzyBoy wrote:Lubbbs you, sadly i dont really like shields, and ive never understood that webbers are supposed to be a gal tool, yet we dont have a ship that gets a range boost like the bhall,
so basically some guy can kite you at 13-20km and warp scramble your gall ship. and even if you had a mwd fitted you wouldn't really be able to catch up, and youd have sig bloom issues due to mwd.
blaster boat pretty much stands no chance of matching the shield tacklers speed.
forgetting drones as a primary weapon, if you could land a web you might stand a chance to land some blaster dmg.
and then there's ammo, we only have one ammo type and that's antimatter. it would be nice if the negative effects of t2 ammo wern't so bad (less ship speed and decreased mobility)
It would be nice if we could have an explosive or emp warhead for some variation of dmg.
ultimately this would push the kite distance out to 30 km's but ac still have the tracking and selectable ammo type for this range where as gal would be pretty much screwed, but at least you'd be able to warp out, unless kiter commits. As CCP is currently having someone to evaluate all ships, it would probably be a good idea if you would start a similar topic for Gallente ships to give feedback to CCP. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
17
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Posted - 2011.09.19 18:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
No need to roll it back to pre-buff, just take off 4/2/1 (L/M/S) damage from the ammo and decrease the falloff a bit on autos. Would prefer they get upped fitting reqs as well but I think I am quite alone in that regard so ...
So you basically want to flip the slave and frog bias when it comes to ship design? Could work, but is a rather hefty undertaking and will probably make a lot of people very unhappy.
Gallente fix: - Increase tracking a tad on blasters or better yet add it as a bonus on hulls designed to use them. Prevents the projectile phenomenon where almost any ship are better using them regardless of race.. - Rails should be good dps/low volley (arty is reverse and lasers in between). - Mag. Stabs. get +25-50% added to damage modifier .. lets them sacrifice survivability for OMGthePAIN!
There, done and done.
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Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
3
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Posted - 2011.09.19 23:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
Quote:Would prefer they get upped fitting reqs as well but I think I am quite alone in that regard so ... Smile
Oh no you're not. It's utterly ridiculous how easily max tier autocannons can fit compared to other turrets.
Quote:Then we are back at the point: once blasters have you in range, they deal more damage that projectile weapons.
Truly the words of an EFT warrior that has no clue about practical application - blaster DPS is only higher on paper. As Gypsio comprehensively explained, projectiles are perfectly capable of equalling or beating blasters in real damage output once you factor in things like range flexibility and damage type selection. |
Tsubutai
The Tuskers
2
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Posted - 2011.09.20 05:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Best way to balance Minmatar would be to revert the entire ammo/TE changes, tbqfh. Those changes compete with the supercap changes for the "most stupid balancing decision in recent years" prize. Because you see, the only ships this game needs are Amarr + Drakes. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
1
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Posted - 2011.09.20 08:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Don't worry, I have my own ideas for Amarr.
Pulse laser tracking is excessive, and Scorch tracking and range excessively excessive. The Apocalypse is fundamentally overpowered, it can outdamage a Rokh - supposedly the premier long-range sniper - all the way out to 240 km, the optimal range bonus has to go. Zealot is far too good relative to other HACs, but it will probably be okay after the laser tracking and Scorch nerfs.
As for the Drake blobs, well, making fleet snipers viable again would help defeat them. Eliminating on-grid warping would help, as well as emphasising the mobility advantages of certain ships and races that are currently negated as people are able to all fly 150 km in pretty much the same time, thanks to on-grid warping. Then I'd take a hammer to all tier 2 BCs, cutting their slots and raw HP down to tier 1 levels (probably have to adjust prices too, but NBD). That should sort out the problems of Hurricane and Drake.
(TBH, it's probably just as well that I'm not a dev...) |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
9
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Posted - 2011.09.20 18:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Don't worry, I have my own ideas for Amarr. Pulse laser tracking is excessive, and Scorch tracking and range excessively excessive. The Apocalypse is fundamentally overpowered, it can outdamage a Rokh - supposedly the premier long-range sniper - all the way out to 240 km, the optimal range bonus has to go. Zealot is far too good relative to other HACs, but it will probably be okay after the laser tracking and Scorch nerfs. As for the Drake blobs, well, making fleet snipers viable again would help defeat them. Eliminating on-grid warping would help, as well as emphasising the mobility advantages of certain ships and races that are currently negated as people are able to all fly 150 km in pretty much the same time, thanks to on-grid warping. Then I'd take a hammer to all tier 2 BCs, cutting their slots and raw HP down to tier 1 levels (probably have to adjust prices too, but NBD). That should sort out the problems of Hurricane and Drake. (TBH, it's probably just as well that I'm not a dev...)
Wow. Someone take the nerf hammer away from this guy. Seriously, though, I'd like to see a laser - hybrid ammo redo similar to Minmatar without the 10% short range ammo buff. Amarr is a one trick pony with Scorch and Tachyon's. (okay- maybe a two trick pony. ) With medium range ammo that gives a tracking bonus we can look at base stats...
Nerf probing out rather then on-grid warping. Or create a new ship that obfuscates the fleet from probes.
Buff T1 cruisers as well as the Tier 1 BC rather then nerf the Tier 2 BC. |
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Raw Matters
KRAUTZ RULEZ KRAUTZ-FEDERATION
6
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Posted - 2011.09.21 14:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Wow. Someone take the nerf hammer away from this guy
That is the big issue when trying to get feedback for balancing ideas from the community: you always have these people that know only the one half of the game and therefore get mysteriously beaten in PvP all the time and then post the obvious conclusion: everyone else is just dramatically overpowered and needs to be nerfed. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
4
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Posted - 2011.09.21 14:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
And then there are people like you who think blasters are fine because they have a nice big EFT number. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
1
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Posted - 2011.09.21 16:08:00 -
[23] - Quote
Raw Matters wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Wow. Someone take the nerf hammer away from this guy That is the big issue when trying to get feedback for balancing ideas from the community: you always have these people that know only the one half of the game and therefore get mysteriously beaten in PvP all the time and then post the obvious conclusion: everyone else is just dramatically overpowered and needs to be nerfed.
As opposed to a person demanding that certain ships are dramatically underpowered and need to be boosted because he can't make them work? |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
9
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Posted - 2011.09.21 19:35:00 -
[24] - Quote
I was just making the point that I'd like to see each race have a short, medium, and long range ammo type before we get into the "nerf this tracking" discussion. There's so much variation in Eve that I think having some type of fixed facet would be a good idea. Eliminate some of the variables.... That is all. Carry on. |
Headerman
Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
99
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Posted - 2011.09.22 06:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
I don't care what ship we go in, WE HAVE TO GET TO THE DEVRON SYSTEM! oh wait... damn wrong game.
Umm....
Just fix the Hel for the love of GOD! It needs to be able to throw more dots! And by fix i mean give an activation cost reduction and an increase from 5% to 7.5% to remote RR! |
shadowace00007
Beyond The Gates Tri Sol Syndicate
1
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Posted - 2011.09.22 14:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
Headerman wrote:Just fix the Hel
+1 Can I also get a naglfar added to this fix? nig is Okay but hel and nag make me
Born Amarrian Raised Minmatar. |
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