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Blitz'Krieg
Caldari 10010011001
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Posted - 2009.09.15 11:28:00 -
[1]
It used to be that if you killed someone the loot that dropped from their ship was worth around 25% of the cost of your own ship. That is now at a level of around 10% of your own ship due to rigs, t2 ships etc. I'm of the opinion this has killed solo pvp and made people wary of engaging lest they spend al their time carebearing to make up the lost isk amount if they die more than in 1 in 10 engagements.
The cost of ships in relation to their fittings needs to be adjusted so that a ships fit is around 60% of the worth of the whole fitted ship.
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2009.09.15 11:38:00 -
[2]
What is with this line of thinking lately? (last few weeks, maybe a month or so)
I have a strong suspicion a few trolls have gotten together, yes? Just in case you're not ...
- The reason there is less solo is because more can afford PVP in the first place and therefore don't have to carebear for extended periods of time without a ship loss destroying them financially. Tbh, I see this as a good thing. I love solo PVP, but tbh, I love the possibility of fights more.
- You say that more people will solo with ships/fits that cost far, far more? My knowledge of the human psyche (be it pixels or not) is that people would prefer to protect their (now large) investments and as such would prefer bigger groups to increase their chance of survival.
- It becomes a great divide, those who can afford t2 and the best named mods get an even greater advantage over those who can't, making it an even less attractive option to those who might want to get involved.
- Finally, I believe you're a twit. _____________________________
Please resize sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal |
Midge Mo'yb
Antares Shipyards Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 11:45:00 -
[3]
I PVP for the fun of it and the tears.
loot is but a bonus - and not required -----------------------------------------------
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Azirapheal
Amarr Armored Core Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 11:49:00 -
[4]
cost was a big factor in myself ceasing to be flashy red after a 3 year piratical career.
but not in the way the OP describes.
wtz killed the lowsec markets and made jumping into alowsec system a random death lottery instead of being able to see them waiting for you on the way out. since i can no longer buy my ships and modules ANYWHERE without an alt im repairing my sec status to go carebear in empire.
Originally by: Azirapheal i never ever thought id live to see the day.... that titans were nerfed for being FOTM HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist SoonÖ
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Armoured Gamer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.09.15 11:51:00 -
[5]
You don't pvp for the iskies , infact you should have the iskies before hand. You solo pvp for the challange and the fun. Yeah everyone does roaming gangs and fleets but that alone doesn't mean solo is dead and as someone pointed for the lolz and tears.
For the reasons you have mentioned op I do not believe that you have experienced solo pvp nor previous since the loot you have has always been crap and no where near 25% value for hac or cs, maybe af but only girls use af's =)
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King Rothgar
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:07:00 -
[6]
I solo pvp for profit. I also fly small gang for profit. Now yeah, you do have to maintain a stupidly high k/d ratio to get by like that which tends to mean avoiding anything that looks risky (aka fun). So I'll sign, the modules on ships should play a greater role in a ship's total value. Simplest way is to double mineral requirements for all mods. Yes, I realize that means it will double the amount of reprocessed minerals. Mining is dead anyways, best to just do away with it.
Alternatively the mineral requirements for ships could be decreased. That works too. -----------------------------------------------------
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Cpt Branko
Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:27:00 -
[7]
I'm more annoyed at the actual loot drops - too often you kill something with faction gear and get two T2 modules as a result. I'd also say that 50% of the fitted modules should drop as a rule - the sheer randomness of the drops is fairly annoying.
Originally by: King Rothgar I solo pvp for profit.
Likewise. It works. As long as you keep your losses cheap, take the occasional ransom if possible (with the current overpopulation of low-sec it's not so easy though), and pick/win your engagements well.
It tends to mean that 90% of the ships in game are not worth flying however On the other hand, I would not feel as if I'm doing something wrong if I had to do something else to fund piracy. Don't see a point to it if it doesn't make ISK - particularly not with all the restrictions it imposes upon you.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Cat o'Ninetails
Rancer Defence League
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Posted - 2009.09.15 12:41:00 -
[8]
hi cat here
i think that the reason this is is that ccp have decided that people should be more productive citizens and do stuff like missions or mining.
why would you want to shoot people anyway
x
Yay! Six months of defending! \o/ <3 to Abrazzar! |
D4RK 0NE
testicular Fortitude
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails hi cat here
i think that the reason this is is that ccp have decided that people should be more productive citizens and do stuff like missions or mining.
why would you want to shoot people anyway
x
hi cat, d4rk here, I shoot people to get tears just from you
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D4.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:15:00 -
[10]
Quote: "Make killing people worthwhile again!"
Isn't that a chapter from the book "The Wit and Wisdom of Charles Manson"...?
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Korovyov
Cool Story Bro
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:27:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Blitz'Krieg It used to be that if you killed someone the loot that dropped from their ship was worth around 25% of the cost of your own ship.
lolwut?
The profit from PvP has always been the ransom.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 13:30:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Franga What is with this line of thinking lately? (last few weeks, maybe a month or so)
No, it's something I and others have been been saying pretty much since a couple of months after Invention hit TQ. There's a mismatch between ship costs and fitting costs. The op is talking about the balance between ship and fitting costs, not the total cost. It's pretty obvious that if you need to make, say, 20 kills to get enough loot to pay for one loss, then you will aim to get about 20 kills per loss. IE: you will become extremely risk averse. But if hull prices fell and module prices rose, you might only need to make 3 or 4 kills. Thus you can afford to take more chances.
It'll be interesting to see how the moon mineral changes in the next patch affect this, as ship prices are much more dependent on moon mins than T2 module prices are. Perhaps that will rectify the problem some.
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Novantco
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:05:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Cpt Branko I'm more annoyed at the actual loot drops - too often you kill something with faction gear and get two T2 modules as a result. I'd also say that 50% of the fitted modules should drop as a rule - the sheer randomness of the drops is fairly annoying.
This tbfh. The amount of times I have seen ships blown up and the majority of the good loot is destroyed is ridiculous. Ransoms help towards making some isks, but it would be a nice change to see increased chances of better stuff dropping.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:31:00 -
[14]
I think it's funny that there have been more threads like this recently. I don't know why there is a suddenly renewed interest in this, but It's something that I've been saying for the better part of a year.
The ratio of value in a ship setup between the hull/rigs and the modules is such that piracy has been seriously impacted when you make the majority (or all) of your ISK from kills/ransoms.
As an example, I had to sell 18 Armor Thermic Hardener IIs just now to make 32m ISK. Does anyone know how many BS I had to kill to acquire 18 of those hardeners? Quite a few.
I remember the days of 25m ISK Cap Recharger IIs, 20m Invuln IIs, Local Cargo Expanders costing 35m+ each. I liked those days. When you made a kill, you got paid.
High ship/module costs impact those who lose ships repeatedly. Those who are successful should be rewarded, and much more so than they are now. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 14:34:00 -
[15]
The reason solo is dead/dying is because very few people can take losing anything, including self-proclaimed pirates, so they do what's simply natural to mitigate this risk - i.e. banding together with as many others as possible to ensure maximum success at minimal risk.
It's the same reason NAP-trains, gatecamps, can flipping, hot-dropping, etc are commonplace.
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Cpt Branko
Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity
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Posted - 2009.09.15 17:09:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 15/09/2009 17:09:43
Originally by: Durzel The reason solo is dead/dying is because very few people can take losing anything, including self-proclaimed pirates, so they do what's simply natural to mitigate this risk - i.e. banding together with as many others as possible to ensure maximum success at minimal risk.
FW is one of the major reasons for increased blobbing. To combat them - and if you don't, the section of space they're in makes it impossible to operate solo/small gang - you need to blob as much as you can. Add to that the fact small ships are so useful/required in FW, which makes them more likely to actually catch pirates - you get what you get.
It was much easier to fly solo before FW.
Furthermore, low-sec is getting seriously overpopulated (only region added - black rise; compare it to the massive influx of people looking for only pew pew). This both hurts the soloer, and it reduces profits - you cannot ransom someone with a ten-man local. Ransoming requires a certain dose of piracy in the belt/planet/safespot/plex you're in, and you don't get that in a overpopulated low-sec. Plus, people doing legitimate business in low-sec are turned off by big locals.
This is what makes low-sec much blobbier, and less fun, then it was.
That said, solo is not dead. While there are still people with the balls to take out a PVP ship and go find a fight, it won't be dead.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
BiggestT
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.09.15 17:48:00 -
[17]
PVP was designed for, and will continue to be, a net loss. (And no, FW LP gain from popping ppl's ships is not profitable)
PVP is a good isk sink for CCP, yet there's still some isk in it for the "efficient" pilot.
When poople realise that once ur sp's are high u can substitute t2 mods for bog standard t1 mods (and still be effective in a t1 ship, ala tier 1 bc or bs), they may stop being bugged by low profit (yes you must pick ur fights, but the amount of easy isk out there is amazing).
While the lame drops are a b*tch, I'm sure its pure chance and I've also seen some great drops (e.g. hauler pop with 2 t2 cruisers but the other lame crap was destroyed).
All this said and done however, I would never complain if pvp loot drops increased EVE Trivia EVE History
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.09.15 18:07:00 -
[18]
You're supposed to kill people for strategic or political reasons.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.09.15 18:18:00 -
[19]
High power module: Reactor stabilizer (one script per reactor type). Needs a larger amount of CPU and some powergrid. Has a certain chance to prevent the reactor from going boom when a ship goes out of control. Targeted effect, uses a good amount of cap to run, short range.
Ship will still be considered destroyed for the sake of insurance and killmail but it'll hang in there with a few hull hitpoints. The pod of the pilot gets ejected normally. It'll stabilize again when it reaches 15% hull hitpoints. Deactivating the stabilizer will make the reactor go nova if it's not repped up to 15% hull or more. Modules will be damaged or even destroyed.
Can only be activated in low- and no-sec. CONCORD considers this insurance fraud and does not allow use of such technology within their realm of influence.
Needed balance feature: Reprocessing a ship or module with hull damage / module damage will have wasted by the amount of damage. Scrap metal processing can still mitigate the loss.
There you go. Have fun capturing ships. -------- Ideas for: Mining
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.15 18:29:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Soporo on 15/09/2009 18:34:32 I don't see the harm in tweaking (ha, like CCP ever TWEAKS anything) the % chance for module drops as opposed to usually getting nothing.
I assume the reason the % sucks so badly is that they wanted to create another isk sink and remove more modules form the game, but that's just a guess.
As for pvping being easier/harder/more/less/rewarding and participation issues... The only reason I don't pvp as often as I like is due to sec stat grinds and concerns and no easy access to 0.0 anymore. *looks at new Sov blog*
Quote:
You're supposed to kill people for strategic or political reasons.
Really? Boring reasons you mean, and I disagree, everything is subjective.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.09.15 18:41:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Soporo
Quote:
You're supposed to kill people for strategic or political reasons.
Really? Boring reasons you mean, and I disagree, everything is subjective.
Shouldn't you be hanging out at a gate killing random people and typing 'lol'?
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Cpt Branko
Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity
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Posted - 2009.09.15 18:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: BiggestT
PVP is a good isk sink for CCP,
No, it is NOT a ISK sink. It generates ISK (insurance) and does away with modules. Therefore, it reduces the amount of modules in circulation and increases the amount of ISK in circulation.
Eg. A has 100M ISK, B has 100M ISK, B has 2x ship & modules; net ISK=200M A buys ship from B for 50 M ; net ISK=200M, net ships=2, net modules=2; A buys 10M of modules from B ; net ISK = 200M, net modules=2 A pays 15M of insurance for ship: net ISK=185M; B blows A up, half of modules survive, A recieves 50M; net ISK=235M, net ships=0; net ships=1; net modules=1.5;
This is not complicated math.
Originally by: BiggestT
When poople realise that once ur sp's are high u can substitute t2 mods for bog standard t1 mods
You still lose money on T1 + ****fit ships. A little of it, true, but you will also gain little money as a result, and you will waste a lot of time getting killed where you should instead win.
T1+****fit is very valid for suiciding. For general action, the best tradeoff is T1 ship + some T2 modules + some T1 modules where it is not important (eg. T1 MWD is OK on 95% of ships, etc).
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.15 19:08:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Originally by: Soporo
Quote:
You're supposed to kill people for strategic or political reasons.
Really? Boring reasons you mean, and I disagree, everything is subjective.
Shouldn't you be hanging out at a gate killing random people and typing 'lol'?
I would be (but I never smack or ridicule) if it werent for my craptastic sec status grinding.
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the plague
Scoopex Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.09.15 20:35:00 -
[24]
Edited by: the plague on 15/09/2009 20:37:25
Originally by: Armoured Gamer You don't pvp for the iskies , infact you should have the iskies before hand. You solo pvp for the challange and the fun.
Disagree 100 percent. I agree with the article in the latest EON: Your method of making ISK should BE your fun. That's good game design. When players are forced to spend hours or even days doing boring, repetitive tasks in order to "earn" their right to do somethng that's actually fun, something has gone very wrong.
BTW, I'm not saying that's the case with EVE right now. But if it ever does come to that, then the devs will need to put some serious thought into the design.
My game time is precious to me. I have no intention of using it doing things that aren't fun. That would be stupidity.
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2009.09.15 21:37:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Franga What is with this line of thinking lately? (last few weeks, maybe a month or so)
It's pretty obvious that if you need to make, say, 20 kills to get enough loot to pay for one loss, then you will aim to get about 20 kills per loss. IE: you will become extremely risk averse.
No, I don't think so. Well, at least I don't agree. One of the reasons I stayed away from PVP in the early days of my EVE playing was the ridiculously high cost of a nice t2 fit. Trying to fit a fleet eagle with 250mil rails costing around the 10-12 mil mark each and the eagle itself costing 150+, MFS at around the 3-4mil a pop mark etc., etc.
I used to boggle at how some people could have 3-4 fleet throns setup with large 425mms costing 20+ mil a pop.
I PVP for the enjoyment. I don't mind taking on things where I think there's going to be a 50-60% chance I might die as really, I didn't lose all that much. _____________________________
Please resize sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal |
Michwich
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:08:00 -
[26]
Grinding all day just to pvp for a few minutes isnt worth it to some. Not for me anyway which is why pvp is above what I can afford to do in this game. Now I could put my nose to the grind stone and make enough to pvp like the other losers here but im not going to. Ill wait for CCP to change it. And it will change eventually. Ahh what the heck, so anyone know whos more reliable? eveisk or eveseller for isk dealers?
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El Mauru
Amarr Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:30:00 -
[27]
the cost of a properly fitted rifter is... -
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Agent Unknown
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:56:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Michwich Grinding all day just to pvp for a few minutes isnt worth it to some. Not for me anyway which is why pvp is above what I can afford to do in this game. Now I could put my nose to the grind stone and make enough to pvp like the other losers here but im not going to. Ill wait for CCP to change it. And it will change eventually. Ahh what the heck, so anyone know whos more reliable? eveisk or eveseller for isk dealers?
GTCs? PLEX?
Go ahead, see how long you keep that isk from the "dealers".
In all seriousness, you carebear to get ISK, then get blown up to use that ISK. PvP is the fun of EVE (apart from some other things...), and you have to pay to have fun.
Originally by: CCP Fallout
And yelling is bad. It makes the baby Jesus cry and when the baby Jesus cries I'm forced to lock threads |
Michwich
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:29:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Michwich on 16/09/2009 01:30:52
Originally by: Agent Unknown
Originally by: Michwich Grinding all day just to pvp for a few minutes isnt worth it to some. Not for me anyway which is why pvp is above what I can afford to do in this game. Now I could put my nose to the grind stone and make enough to pvp like the other losers here but im not going to. Ill wait for CCP to change it. And it will change eventually. Ahh what the heck, so anyone know whos more reliable? eveisk or eveseller for isk dealers?
GTCs? PLEX?
Go ahead, see how long you keep that isk from the "dealers".
In all seriousness, you carebear to get ISK, then get blown up to use that ISK. PvP is the fun of EVE (apart from some other things...), and you have to pay to have fun.
I am being seriouse, whats wrong with buying isk? CCP advertises their dealer sites in game everyday?
But yeah you gotta pay to play, the point is how much grinding do you gotta do before you can play, and its too much for my taste. And waiting, you gotta wait for skills even if you can afford to play.
Ive been playing off and on for over a year and got around 6 million sp. Cant even fit my ship properly yet and im making 10 mill a day casually. I gotta put in 50-150 million for a PVP ship to stand a chance. No way im risking 150 million for PVP at my current isk rate. So Ill take CCP's and everybody elses advice and not risk anything I cant afford to replace. See you in high sec.
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Smabs
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Posted - 2009.09.16 02:46:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Smabs on 16/09/2009 02:49:42
Quote: I gotta put in 50-150 million for a PVP ship to stand a chance.
You do?
I'm pretty sure a t2 fit frig costs 3-4 mil, a BC maybe 30 after insurance, a cruiser around 20, an interceptor around 20 and so on. Unless you're in serious ops I don't see that you need to be flying battleships and HACs all the time.
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