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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:40:00 -
[1]
imho the ranking has changed to: 1) rev, 2) nag, 3) moros, 4) phoenix
The nag is a nice dread. The major downsides is the requirement for minm bs 5, split weapons systems, ammo usage.
Station games weren't that common or that bad. What the change has done is drop the moros so its less desirable than a rev or a nag.
With the drone bonus nerfed the moros needs a rof, range, or rep bonus. It seriously needs to be boosted to meet the nag tank/dps.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 03:01:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Eagle Tarquinas I believe a fair compromise would be,
then bring a domi. Any nerf to the moros means that the rev is the correct dread, nag is nice, but no real point to the moros.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 04:46:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel The Phoenix weapon system can be speed tanked by capitals, especially in siege mode. ... those missiles can still be blown by smartbombs, especially by faction and officer ones, common in supercapitals. That can be easily seen when you look in any Titan killmail and see all phonixes in last place damagewise, some not even scoring a single hit.
I'll agree that the phoenix is subpar. If something is speed tanking missiles then turret tracking is likely an issue. Unless you want to use the "sniper dread" fleet.
those missiles aren't that likely to be blown up. the real issue with titan/mothership kills is the speed in which titans pop. Put 50-60 dreads on a titan and top damage is partly whoever locks first and fires first. The flight time of missiles is the issue.
A shield tanked nag has a fairly decent tank. Nag certainly isn't the worst dread.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:55:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Without having done a proper analysis, the reason for them to do bad damage against titans and motherships is the rather fast movement of these targets I guess
Trige isn't used *that* often. A carrier is going to be kept moving just as titans and motherships. If anything a mothership or titan is more likely to be bumped. If you can get close to web a carrier you can get close enough to bump a supercap.
The phoenix is decent for capital fights. Not as nice as rev, nag, or moros, but certainly serviceable. None of the dreads are *that* bad. Just for the time and investment people will go after what they like versus flying anything. So there needs to be a niche or many will flock to the "right" dread.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:01:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Tippia it will take roughly 93 years
plus the limitations on number of locked targets in siege. Considering the tower is target #1, if you're in a small ship that is locked by a moros in siege just warp on grid. You'd have to be nearly afk to get locked and shot at.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:26:00 -
[6]
Originally by: xxxak Currently, a Moros can play station games with literally near zero risk because nothing can kill it before it can dock.
Meanwhile a carrier can do the same. Nerf carriers?
So is the station camping moros common enough that a nerf is needed? no.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 19:26:00 -
[7]
Originally by: xxxak 1 carrier and dread roles are different
And they still are. Dread can't use logistics effectively nor field fighters.
Originally by: xxxak
3 50% drone dmg gave Moros a broken superpower with no analogy for other races or even carriers
domi/ishtar have respectable drone bonuses. Carriers can field more than 5 drones versus outright drone bonus. So the analog did exist and the Moros was no superpower.
Originally by: xxxak
4 don't like it, crosstrain
I already have cross trained for the rev, the new fotm.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.17 02:03:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Krusten Kandis
Carrier, max skills, all highs filled with Drone Control Units, can field 15 drones. Please note that all high slots are filled. Please also note that these drones were all on their basic hp which made them very vulnerable to sentry guns.
Moros, max skills, can field 5 drones with a 350% damage boost on them. This equates to 17.5 drones. Please note that no high slots are used for this and are free for things like heavy neutralizers, which some moros pilots use to completely drain the cap from smaller ships so that they cannot use microwarp drives. Please also note that these drones have a 350% boost to their hp, reducing their vulnerability to sentry guns immensely.
its 50% per level for a 250% bonus. Thats roughly close to a carrier with a few dcus. The carrier can remotely rep the drones while the moros is going to be out of range except for sentry drones. The moros needs the drone hp buffer because it can't effectively rep them. A carrier can hold more spare drones than can a moros.
I can't recall any major whine thread about moros solopwnmobiles station campers.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.17 02:43:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Krusten Kandis I will point out that you add the bonus of 250% to the base 100% to get, yes, 350%.
fair enough.
carriers aren't known for omg dps. Looking at the cost versus dps and a carrier/moros isn't that far from a gank bs.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.17 14:55:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Jin Entres Moros, or any dread, cannot apply its damage to its primary target without being in siege mode.
Problem is that the drone bonus is mostly worthless in siege mode except as a bad subsitute for a 4th rail. A moros in siege isn't much of a threat to subcaps. If the bonus only applies in siege then I'd rather have no drone bonus and a nice dmg or rof gun bonus.
If the moros can only do dps in siege then a Rev or a nag is a better choice for a dread.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.17 15:59:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Lucas Schuyler Actually, its still 250%.
I think he's saying that base 100% (50) + bonus 250% (125) = 350% (175). Otherwise 125 would be bonus only and not including the original 50 damage.
Otherwise level 1 would be base 50 * bonus 50% = 25 damage. A bonus probably doesn't decrease damage. So then it makes more sense that level 1 is base 50 * bonus 150% = 75.
I have the feeling that he is not very good at social skills nor explaining simple concepts to us ignorant folk.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.17 17:47:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Spaztick I'm not sure I understand the whines here. A Moros in siege can still do 1100 dps with 5 Ogre IIs.
You won't be using ogre ii's 95% of the time. Bouncer IIs which cut into the dps. Plus you're limited to 57-60km range. I'd rather have another rail or a better bonus (rnge?) to the 3x ones we do have.
I'd rather the drone bonus cut in half out of siege and a 100% drone control range. That would make me happy.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.17 20:35:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ulstan its being fixed. If you never did that, this change won't really impact you.
But it will. Relatively few station camped. Most pilots fly the Moros because of that unsieged drone bonus. Without that bonus and with the weakness of the moros then other dreads are preferred.
So every pilot that uses a Moros will feel this nerf while few station camped.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.18 13:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Wideen
dreads are anti-capital/structure ships, not subcap solo pwners. The rest of the dreads have this problems as well, except they don't have a drone bonus.
The moros isn't a subcap solo pwner that much more than the rorqual or carriers. While the dps is good it isn't that far off from a blaster mega. The reason why it has been used as a station camper is because of the combination of drone dps and hp buffer.
The rest of the dreads have compelling reasons to fly them, with the possible exception of the phoenix. So should we nerf the rev because it doesn't need ammo? Or the nag because it has 4 weapon high slots and good dps at range? Or the phoenix because it can change ammo type?
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.18 21:16:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tom Peeping
One thing of note: While this may change how some players have to play, the ship hasn't actually been seriously nerfed here. It retains the ability (alone in it's class) to be effective versus support ships.
As stated in as many ways possible that this nerf will make it ineffective against support ships. There is no compelling reason to fly the moros while there are good reasons for the rev & nag.
Originally by: Tom Peeping
The only change now is that the pilot has to commit to the battle... no more dock games with it. Either you're going to fight or your not. If you make the decision to fight, the ship is as good as it ever was.
Leaving the barn door open for the station camping rorqual, thanatos, archon, chimera, or nid. Plus plated gank bs.
Docking games are what should have been nerfed. I hate low sec because of docking games and jumping back to empire. Increase aggro timer and the problem would have fixed itself.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.19 04:12:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Crackzilla on 19/09/2009 04:13:51
Originally by: Norris Packard the moros drones still get 10% per level out of siege
Meanwhile the rorqual has a better bonus if I recall. So we need to nerf the rorqual next? Then carriers?
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Im not sure why everyone thinks the Rev is just so awesome.
Because the Rev and the Nag doesn't rely on drone damage that stops at 60km. If you're willing to wait for the torps even phoenix is better in this regard. Which is why if a nerf is a must many have asked for the drone bonus to be dropped completely and bonus the rails properly.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel unless you fit them horribly.
With trimark setups cap is a bit of an issue when trying to perma run the tank. But yeah if the tank is turned for a bit then cap shouldn't be an issue.
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