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Cardano Firesnake
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
29
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Posted - 2012.06.06 06:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello The Apocalypse Battleship have Excllent bonuses to make him a sniper. But it is impossible to fit eight T2 Tachyon on it without Reactor Control Unit or Ancillary Curent Router even with all skills at V.
I think it is really strange. It is as if creating a sport car without the place for a good motor. |
nabort
Count With Teddy Pro's Stay Calm Don't Panic
1
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Posted - 2012.06.06 06:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
Terrible analogy.
You can't expect to put an entire rack of the biggest sup-capital weapons on a battleship without some sacrifices. |
Cardano Firesnake
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
29
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Posted - 2012.06.06 07:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Well why creating a ship that cannot fit its natural weapons? You can easily put 8 tachyon on an Oracle. |
Alara IonStorm
2378
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Posted - 2012.06.06 07:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
nabort wrote:Terrible analogy.
You can't expect to put an entire rack of the biggest sup-capital weapons on a battleship without some sacrifices. I think you should be able to fit them along with tank.
I don't really understand the higher fitting costs for LR Weapons v SR Weapons. |
Kaikka Carel
White syndicate Wormholes Holders
54
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Posted - 2012.06.06 07:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
A 150k ehp sniping battleship would be... Oh wait there is one already)) |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
49
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Posted - 2012.06.06 08:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sure, if they lower scorch range to be more in line with other short range weapons. Win some, lose some. Besides on a sniper you can fit them just fine, we've been doing so for years. Amat victoria curam. |
Lustralis
Tiny Holdings
28
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Posted - 2012.06.06 08:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Buy a Paladin. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
8
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Posted - 2012.06.06 08:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cardano Firesnake wrote:Well why creating a ship that cannot fit its natural weapons? You can easily put 8 tachyon on an Oracle.
even winmatar to set up sniper builds gives up fitting options.
Sniper ='s glass cannon or close to it. Gank or tank, pick one.
As a sniper, range is apart of your tank. YOu are in your optimal or close to it, your enemy is hitting in his far falloff for less damage, if he hits at all. This how I kept rokhs alive on one char. Medium size alpha primary but in the other sides why even bother point in their falloff means it might not be 2 shot instant death. |
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
166
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Posted - 2012.06.06 11:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Sure, if they lower scorch range to be more in line with other short range weapons. Win some, lose some. Besides on a sniper you can fit them just fine, we've been doing so for years.
Something makes me doubt he's putting Scorch crystals in Tachyon Beam Lasers |
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
21
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Posted - 2012.06.06 12:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Check how powerful tachyons are compared to other large guns. Really, an apocalypse that lacks any damage bonus can do same damage with tachyons than a maesltrom with ROF bonus! Tachyons are super sized guns are should not be easy to fit.
On an Apoc you can forego range modules since you have an insane range by default. IT becomes not complicated at all to make a reasonable tachyons fit on the glass cannon sniper role (the role that long range guns were intended to fill).
Want proof of tachyosn awesomness.. fit an oracle with tachyons and pay attention on the stupidty of those numbers! |
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Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
49
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Posted - 2012.06.06 12:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:Sure, if they lower scorch range to be more in line with other short range weapons. Win some, lose some. Besides on a sniper you can fit them just fine, we've been doing so for years. Something makes me doubt he's putting Scorch crystals in Tachyon Beam Lasers
Something makes me doubt you got the point.
Amat victoria curam. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
107
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Posted - 2012.06.06 13:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cardano Firesnake wrote:Hello The Apocalypse Battleship have Excllent bonuses to make him a sniper. But it is impossible to fit eight T2 Tachyon on it without Reactor Control Unit or Ancillary Curent Router even with all skills at V.
I think it is really strange. It is as if creating a sport car without the place for a good motor.
This is true for a lot of sniper setups.
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Goran Konjich
University of Caille Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2012.06.06 13:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Seishi Maru wrote:Want proof of tachyosn awesomness.. fit an oracle with tachyons and pay attention on the stupidty of those numbers!
yea, doing that ... its awesome going 1400m/s and shooting 8 lazors from 80km ... the rats are dead. "a diplomat with 425mm briefcase II" |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Tactical Narcotics Team
142
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Posted - 2012.06.06 13:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Using overpowered and ******** tier 3 battlecruisers in an argument? No way...
Long range weapons are more difficult to fit because back in the days range was a serious advantage and Tachyons are in a class of their own which is why you have to sacrifice tank to fit them. From my memory the dps is about similar to a Mega Pulse...
I am sure the battleships will be rebalanced eventually (after all the T1 frigates, T1 cruisers and T1 Battlecruisers) and it might become a little easier to fit, however don't hold your breath and don't take my word for it ;-) (ccp rather wanna introduce new unbalanced stuff and broken features it seems)
Pinky |
Lustralis
Tiny Holdings
30
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Posted - 2012.06.06 13:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:From my memory the dps is about similar to a Mega Pulse...
I think the alpha is much higher though.
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Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
120
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Posted - 2012.06.06 15:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cardano Firesnake wrote:Hello The Apocalypse Battleship have Excllent bonuses to make him a sniper. But it is impossible to fit eight T2 Tachyon on it without Reactor Control Unit or Ancillary Curent Router even with all skills at V.
I think it is really strange. It is as if creating a sport car without the place for a good motor.
You can fit all tachs with a very small trade off that is a simple fitting mod, it's a very fair trade.
Try to fit a full rack 425mm sniper Megathron and watch out your ship cap deplete just firing with no other active mod. However there's no hybrids equivalent to Tachs or we would need 725mm, you fit a gun and the poor thing would blow it self at the first shot brb |
Veronica Kerrigan
Hand Of Midas
29
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Posted - 2012.06.06 16:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tachyons are a weapon class to themselves. They deal near megapulse DPS at 40+30km range with multifrequency. Yeah they're hard to fit, but on the ships that do fit them well, they tear everything up. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
73
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Posted - 2012.06.06 17:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Sure, if they lower scorch range to be more in line with other short range weapons. Win some, lose some. Besides on a sniper you can fit them just fine, we've been doing so for years.
That would make already overpowered Barrage even more powerful. |
Mira Lynne
State War Academy Caldari State
17
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Posted - 2012.06.06 17:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Oh No! I Can't Fit a full rack of [Highest Tier Weapon] and [High PG Use Mod] and [Other High PG Use Mod] on [Ship] without [Fitting Mod] Buff! BUUFFFF!
In all seriousness, thats the POINT of higher Tier Weapons - You need to make Sacrifices in exchange for better performance. Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread |
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
167
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Posted - 2012.06.06 17:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:Sure, if they lower scorch range to be more in line with other short range weapons. Win some, lose some. Besides on a sniper you can fit them just fine, we've been doing so for years. Something makes me doubt he's putting Scorch crystals in Tachyon Beam Lasers Something makes me doubt you got the point. Then you should explain better than "this should be nerfed for no reason". |
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PinkKnife
The Scope Gallente Federation
104
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Posted - 2012.06.06 19:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mira Lynne wrote:Oh No! I Can't Fit a full rack of [Highest Tier Weapon] and [High PG Use Mod] and [Other High PG Use Mod] on [Ship] without [Fitting Mod] Buff! BUUFFFF!
In all seriousness, thats the POINT of higher Tier Weapons - You need to make Sacrifices in exchange for better performance.
No. Difference being you can't fit 8 T2 tachyons at all on the ship by themselves.
Any other guns, you can fit 8 just fine and may have trouble with the rest of the modules.
With Tachyons, you cannot even fit JUST the guns, without a fitting module. No other weapon in the game requires a fitting module just to fit as intended.
With 0 low slots filled, and 0 medium slots filled, you use all of your powergrid and then some, fitting 8 T2 tachyons.
You do not have this problem with the highest tier projectiles, blasters, or rails. They can be TIGHT fits, but you can make it happen without fitting modules.
For what? Good range and good dps, but Rails give better range, and a better damage type. (compare a rohk dps to a beam apoc)
If i'm not mistaken a 425 rohk will do similar DPS numbers and not need a fitting module. |
Wolfic
EldarRiders Stainwagon.
2
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Posted - 2012.06.06 19:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:Mira Lynne wrote:Oh No! I Can't Fit a full rack of [Highest Tier Weapon] and [High PG Use Mod] and [Other High PG Use Mod] on [Ship] without [Fitting Mod] Buff! BUUFFFF!
In all seriousness, thats the POINT of higher Tier Weapons - You need to make Sacrifices in exchange for better performance. No. Difference being you can't fit 8 T2 tachyons at all on the ship by themselves. Any other guns, you can fit 8 just fine and may have trouble with the rest of the modules. With Tachyons, you cannot even fit JUST the guns, without a fitting module. No other weapon in the game requires a fitting module just to fit as intended. With 0 low slots filled, and 0 medium slots filled, you use all of your powergrid and then some, fitting 8 T2 tachyons. You do not have this problem with the highest tier projectiles, blasters, or rails. They can be TIGHT fits, but you can make it happen without fitting modules. For what? Good range and good dps, but Rails give better range, and a better damage type. (compare a rohk dps to a beam apoc) If i'm not mistaken a 425 rohk will do similar DPS numbers and not need a fitting module.
First the Apoc fits 8 guns versus 6 on the tempest, try to fit the largest weapons in all 8 highs on the tempest and you'll have the same problem. Tachs also have about a 10% advantage in DPS and a 30% improvement in tracking over 425mm rails. An Apoc with 2 damage mods will do more damage than a Rokh with 3.
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Thelron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
32
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Posted - 2012.06.06 20:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tachs actually have about a 20% base DPS advantage (or rather, the rails have about 80% of the base Tach multiplier/RoF), 425's are just slightly behind mega-beams (which fits with rails having the range advantage and lasers having the damage advantage, as 425's fire 10/8 further than the mega-beams). Tachs, incidentally, also have almost the same range as 425s.
Tachs are *not* equivalent to 425's and 1400s. They're bigger than either, much the same way that dual 250 rails are smaller than any of the long-ranged laser and projectile options. |
Mira Lynne
State War Academy Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2012.06.07 01:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:if i'm not mistaken a 425 rohk will do similar DPS numbers and not need a fitting module. You are Mistaken. 425s are approximately equal to mega beams (Megas having more DPS and Tracking at the expense of Range) Tachyons do SIGNIFICANTLY more DPS than 425s at an only slightly reduced Range, and with much better Tracking. In addition: For PvP, a Sniper Apoc doesnt need tank: Just Tachs and an MWD, rest should be damage and damage application mods. For PvE, Mega Beams STILL do more DPS, have still better tracking, and not that much less range for a significant reduction on fittings. Working as Intended. Tachyons are for Max Gank/Range and are SUPPOSED to mean you fly either tankless or Damage Control Tank. If you want Tank, use Mega Beams. Or a Navy Apoc. Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread |
Alara IonStorm
2380
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Posted - 2012.06.07 04:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
Mira Lynne wrote:For PvE, Mega Beams STILL do more DPS, have still better tracking, and not that much less range for a significant reduction on fittings. T2 Megabeams can not be fit on the Apoc ether. They go over grid at max skill with nothing else fitted. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
633
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Posted - 2012.06.07 05:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
The outrageous fitting requirements of lasers are one of the major reasons why very few lasers armed ships are competitive. It would be super great if CCP would either actually make them good enough to warrant their absurd fitting requirements or reduce their fitting requirements so that amarr ships aren't quite so commonly fit with projectile turrets instead of the racial weapons they are bonused for. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
113
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Posted - 2012.06.07 10:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:The outrageous fitting requirements of lasers are one of the major reasons why very few lasers armed ships are competitive. It would be super great if CCP would either actually make them good enough to warrant their absurd fitting requirements or reduce their fitting requirements so that amarr ships aren't quite so commonly fit with projectile turrets instead of the racial weapons they are bonused for.
This and Alara. If you do the calculations, lasers do the least dps per point of grid used. If you correct for the naturally large grid in laser ships, they still do the least dps per point of grid used. At least for short range weapons with short range ammo. Dunno about the others.
This stuff doesn't matter because long range pvp is dead thanks to on-grid warping/probing. Long range weapons are only used for alpha, which means that arties are best by far.
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Cardano Firesnake
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
30
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Posted - 2012.06.07 10:23:00 -
[28] - Quote
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:The outrageous fitting requirements of lasers are one of the major reasons why very few lasers armed ships are competitive. It would be super great if CCP would either actually make them good enough to warrant their absurd fitting requirements or reduce their fitting requirements so that amarr ships aren't quite so commonly fit with projectile turrets instead of the racial weapons they are bonused for. This and Alara. If you do the calculations, lasers do the least dps per point of grid used. If you correct for the naturally large grid in laser ships, they still do the least dps per point of grid used. At least for short range weapons with short range ammo. Dunno about the others. This stuff doesn't matter because long range pvp is dead thanks to on-grid warping/probing. Long range weapons are only used for alpha, which means that arties are best by far.
If you add the fact that lasers can't fire when you are out of capacitor whereas projectiles and missiles can, I find lasers not so excellent.
And Lasers do only EM and Thermal Damages... Hell Why did I choose Amarr as first choice ?? ;-) |
Maeltstome
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
18
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Posted - 2012.06.07 11:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:Sure, if they lower scorch range to be more in line with other short range weapons. Win some, lose some. Besides on a sniper you can fit them just fine, we've been doing so for years. That would make already overpowered Barrage even more powerful.
because falloff = 100% dps ?
Please... lowest DPS of all guns that also fight in falloff for even less DPS. Minnie ships finally are being flown as an alternative to Gallente/Amarr and suddenly 'winmatar' whines start to appear.
Stop looking at EFT and peeing your pants and get into the real world. |
Sebroth
Svea Rike Fidelas Constans
2
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Posted - 2012.06.07 12:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
give me a minmatar ship that can fitt this and I would be happy to let you fit your oversized guns on any ship without any kind of extra fitting needs.
================================= "Hand of God" class battleship ================================= 8x 2200mm Artillery Cannons II
1x 100mn MicroWarpdrive II 2x Large Shield Extender II 2x Invulnerability Field II 1x EM Ward Field II
2x Gyrostabilizer II 2x Tracking Enhancer II 1x Damage Control II
3x Large Core Defence Field Extender I
and some drones =================================
oh and almost forgot.
Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage per level 5% shield resistance per level
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