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Sphit Ker
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
109
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Posted - 2012.08.08 17:11:00 -
[61] - Quote
It does not need to be like that.
Immense fitting requirements as a mean of balancing/countering powerful mods is a false pretence. The turret's very attributes are the sole balancing factors that matters. I know damn well that a tackled tach apoc is dead dead dead dead 100% game over 99% of the times (what?). Having a "tank" on it means it will only die slower and you know it.
That's the point, really. Even after you've stuffed your ship with PG boosters you are still stuck with a weeping CPU. And the lock range on Apoc is not enough so you have to stuff at least two sebos just to enable to full potential of the tachys. After all that, they are still the same old tachyons as before. Only now, your fit look like ass and the lossmail is comedy gold. |
Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
37
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Posted - 2012.08.08 17:43:00 -
[62] - Quote
Airto TLA wrote: snip
I am still amazed no one has figured out away to make the Tach oracle work in vast numbers, it would seem to work similar to railguns, .
I am just guessing here, but I believe that is most likely due to training. With projectiles being the most popular go-to weapon system for a while now, I think there are probably a lot more people with large rail skills maxxed than people with large beam skills ( i know several other amarr players that dont even train their heavy beam, sticking with pulse and scorch. I personally trained both). Combine that with the larger alpha from arties, and I can see the why. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
282
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Posted - 2012.08.08 18:14:00 -
[63] - Quote
Zyella Stormborn wrote:Airto TLA wrote: snip
I am still amazed no one has figured out away to make the Tach oracle work in vast numbers, it would seem to work similar to railguns, . I am just guessing here, but I believe that is most likely due to training. With projectiles being the most popular go-to weapon system for a while now, I think there are probably a lot more people with large rail skills maxxed than people with large beam skills ( i know several other amarr players that dont even train their heavy beam, sticking with pulse and scorch. I personally trained both). Combine that with the larger alpha from arties, and I can see the why.
That doesn't make much sense to me.
Railguns are used now, and I think we can all agree that they were the overall worst (and thus least used) sniper weapon before the buff. If they're used now, one should assume that a good number of people trained specifically for them after the buff.
Pulse lasers have always been worth training for, so a good number of people should have the skills to use t2 mega pulse lasers. Indeed t2 megapulse lasers are in the top 20 list. From there it only takes a few days to t2 tachyons if people wanted to use them. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
38
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Posted - 2012.08.08 21:35:00 -
[64] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Zyella Stormborn wrote:Airto TLA wrote: snip
I am still amazed no one has figured out away to make the Tach oracle work in vast numbers, it would seem to work similar to railguns, . I am just guessing here, but I believe that is most likely due to training. With projectiles being the most popular go-to weapon system for a while now, I think there are probably a lot more people with large rail skills maxxed than people with large beam skills ( i know several other amarr players that dont even train their heavy beam, sticking with pulse and scorch. I personally trained both). Combine that with the larger alpha from arties, and I can see the why. That doesn't make much sense to me. Railguns are used now, and I think we can all agree that they were the overall worst (and thus least used) sniper weapon before the buff. If they're used now, one should assume that a good number of people trained specifically for them after the buff. Pulse lasers have always been worth training for, so a good number of people should have the skills to use t2 mega pulse lasers. Indeed t2 megapulse lasers are in the top 20 list. From there it only takes a few days to t2 tachyons if people wanted to use them.
You may indeed be right. I'm just going by what I have seen. I rarely ever see much in the way of tach use except for Oracle or the occasional apoc.. The mass majority of laser use I see is pulse. I believe there are a few minnie and pirate ship popular set ups that use arties (or at least I seem to run into them a lot more often). Then there is the whole 'Winmitar' mentality, which has a lot of newer players going that route.
/shrug Just my observation. ;) |
PinkKnife
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
184
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Posted - 2012.08.08 22:54:00 -
[65] - Quote
Veryez wrote:Cardano Firesnake wrote:Lunkwill Khashour wrote:Veryez wrote: Tachyons are designed to be in a league of their own, period. They are a league above 425's and 1400's
Going by the majority vote: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 , tachyons are in a league of their own: one where no one is playing. Oh yes it is interestening to see that 1400mm and 425mm Rail Gun are in the Top 20 and that there is no Tachyon. It seems that these guns are simply useless :-). Perharps because they are too difficult to fit, perharps because they are not so excellent that people could say. I do not know if the problem is the guns or the ammunition... I didn't realize you were trying to discuss the usefullness of the weapon, you asked why you have to fit an RCU to put them on an Apoc. The answer is they are the biggest Battleship guns in the game. They are bigger than 425's and 1400's. An Apoc has no issues fitting 8xMega Beams, which are the equivalent guns to 1400's and 425's. If CCP wanted to put 1600's or 500's in the game, then by all means they should have difficult fitting requirements. Besides stop complaining, Amarr have 3 very useful battleships, and the buffs lasers recieved a few years ago made them very useful. The geddon is a fantastic DPS ship, the Apoc actually has 3 bonuses (look at the boosts it got over the years) and the Abaddon can field a great tank or DPS platform if it desires. Only since the advent of on-grid warping have 1400's become valuable in fleets, before that hybrids and lasers were king. Next time you siege a POS in a Battleship, try it with a laser ship, then come back here and tell us how they are.....
And what quality makes them supposedly tier 4 turrets? They don't have any real quality that puts them above 1400s or 425s respectfully that makes it not only consume a ship bonus, but 1-2 modules slots as well just to be able to fit on the damn ships they were designed for. |
Veryez
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
22
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Posted - 2012.08.09 00:12:00 -
[66] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote: And what quality makes them supposedly tier 4 turrets? They don't have any real quality that puts them above 1400s or 425s respectfully that makes it not only consume a ship bonus, but 1-2 modules slots as well just to be able to fit on the damn ships they were designed for.
Obviously you didn't read the link I posted. Here, let me cut and paste it for you:
Originally by: Shimatu
425mm rail: Damage Per Sec (Antimatter L): 13.80 tachyon beam: Damage Per Sec (Multifrequency L): 16.32 shouldnt the damage/sec on these weapons be about the same? rather than a clear 2.5 better on the laser. or is that the price of having to drain cap instead of ammo?
TomB wrote: The Mega Beam is the turret kept in line with the 425mm, the Tachyon is a unieq battleship laser only type - can be seen as heavy beam vs. 250mm railgun and medium beam vs. 150mm railgun.
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/80584/page/1#3
Note the author, TomB, the CCP designer in charge of ship balance back then. These aren't my words, they are his (since he can't spell unique ).
Also, don't necro threads. |
Alara IonStorm
2916
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Posted - 2012.08.09 00:39:00 -
[67] - Quote
Veryez wrote:Extremely outdated stats from 2004 that are ridiculously off compared to today. Indeed.
In reality of course the damage difference going from 1400mm to 425mm is higher then the Dmg difference from 425mm to Tach.
Tachs are not in a class of their own. Just the largest Laser.
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Veryez
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
22
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Posted - 2012.08.09 01:28:00 -
[68] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:
No real facts, just more complaints.
Ah so lets look at todays numbers, DPS assuming level 5 skills (spec 5 too, for those of us who trained it) - no ship bonus, faction ammo, one gun:
1400 t2, RF Fusion - 39 DPS, 1118 Alpha 425 t2, CN Antimatter - 46 DPS, 317 Alpha Megabeam t2, IN Multifrequency - 48 DPS, 314 Alpha Tachyon t2, IN Multifrequency - 52 DPS, 471 Alpha
Looks like even in 2012, there's a nice jump in DPS/Alpha from the 425, and still the 425 and the Megabeam are very close. The 1400 was of course modified to have the largest alpha at the cost of the smallest DPS, but you knew that.
But please, argue with CCP all you wish, they were the ones who said the Tachyon was a different weapon. I was just nice enough to show you where they said it.
Like I said give me a 500 t2 railgun or a 1600 t2 artillery and I'll be happy to have to use a RCU II to fit it.
I'd love to fit a full rack of Tachs on my Apoc w/o a fitting mod (hell I'd love to use a full rack of t2 Megabeams w/o a fitting mod for that matter), but even with today's stats it doesn't look very balanced compared to other LR weapons now does it? And for all intents and purposes you have to use a fitting mod on a Tempest anyway if you fit t2 1400's, as even with lvl 5 skills you have about 70 PG left (compare that to a Mega with a full rack of t2 425's that has almost 5000 PG left).
Oh well, imagine that, you have to make compromises when fitting ships, what will they think of next.... |
PinkKnife
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
188
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Posted - 2012.08.13 02:18:00 -
[69] - Quote
Veryez wrote:I'd love to fit a full rack of Tachs on my Apoc w/o a fitting mod (hell I'd love to use a full rack of t2 Megabeams w/o a fitting mod for that matter), but even with today's stats it doesn't look very balanced compared to other LR weapons now does it? And for all intents and purposes you have to use a fitting mod on a Tempest anyway if you fit t2 1400's, as even with lvl 5 skills you have about 70 PG left (compare that to a Mega with a full rack of t2 425's that has almost 5000 PG left). Oh well, imagine that, you have to make compromises when fitting ships, what will they think of next....
Yet, Blasters look good on paper too. Simply comparing straight DPS numbers means very very little in game as to how they are used, and their effectiveness as a weapon.
Otherwise all we would see are Heavy Neutron Blaster IIs on every ship...but wait...you don't really. There is a difference between compromising a fit to fit ships, and a weapon being completely fine on paper and useless in game. See hybrid weapons in general for an example.
Or would you like to bring up how much of the game has changed since 2004, and how long range turrets are almost never used EXCEPT artillery for their ridiculous alpha feature. |
Rashmika Clavain
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
17
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Posted - 2012.08.13 12:25:00 -
[70] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:Sure, if they lower scorch range to be more in line with other short range weapons. Win some, lose some. Besides on a sniper you can fit them just fine, we've been doing so for years. Something makes me doubt he's putting Scorch crystals in Tachyon Beam Lasers Something makes me doubt you got the point. Then you should explain better than "this should be nerfed for no reason".
I thought his point about making a trade off was quite clear :shrug: |
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Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
638
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Posted - 2012.08.13 19:27:00 -
[71] - Quote
just use pulse with scorch. you already get over 50km optimal without modules, throw some tracking computers with range upgrade scripts and you will be pushin 100km. |
Songbird
59
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Posted - 2012.08.14 18:58:00 -
[72] - Quote
b00bs! |
Jhelom
Divine Reckoning
7
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Posted - 2012.08.14 19:59:00 -
[73] - Quote
Not to be a troll, but the OP seems to believe that because the Apocalypse receives bonuses that compliment mega beams, it should be able to fit them. I feel like there's a flaw in the logic there. As a pure Amarr pilot, I would LOVE to fit Tach II's on every BS I own, but it wouldn't be balanced whatsoever. As someone else mentioned, having 150k EHP and one of the most powerful turrets in the game at your disposal would be... dare I say it, overpowered?
/end my $0.02 |
Mavnas
The Scope Gallente Federation
35
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Posted - 2012.08.14 21:20:00 -
[74] - Quote
Lustralis wrote:Pinky Denmark wrote:From my memory the dps is about similar to a Mega Pulse... I think the alpha is much higher though.
That's kind of the point though. No LR system does the same as SR counterpart. Tachyons simply don't have a short range equivalent. They're just an extra tier of weapons that only long-range lasers have. Hence why they do damage like Mega Pulse at massive range. They'd be pretty OP if you can fit them easily. That said my Apoc just makes do with 8 Meta4s.
With a couple range mods, I don't even have to switch out Navy Multifreq at ranges below 90km. (out of optimal, but still higher damage than standard out to about that range). This makes for fun in missions in which stuff starts at long range. |
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