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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
wallenbergaren
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Posted - 2009.09.20 11:31:00 -
[31]
People who don't PvP because of implants are people who will always have a reason to not PvP. If you want to do it, you do it. The difference between +4s and +5s is 100 SP / hour
Poor you
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.09.20 11:35:00 -
[32]
lol no
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Hul'ka
Minmatar tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.09.20 11:40:00 -
[33]
That would go heavily against risk vs reward thingy we have going on right now. --------- phew phew
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2009.09.20 11:40:00 -
[34]
implement a way to recover implants from dead bodies, like the loot of the ship.
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Gsptlsnz
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Posted - 2009.09.20 12:24:00 -
[35]
Implants (and Learning Skills) are both just "Rookie Taxes". They delay the point at which a new player can afford to PvP.
I don't see this as good game design. EvE players seem to be prepared to accept the same costs of PvP as any other MMORPG, but the high "time-cost" of the equipment means that people do a lot less fighting. For rookies the cost is prohibitive, since if you PvP you will lose perhaps 5% of your training speed due to the implant effect.
Think about it high-SP players - what would you pay in ISK each month for an extra 5% training speed? *Thats* what rookies have to sacrifice, but it can be ignored if you choose to pretend that rookies can earn bllions per months.
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Mrmuttley
National Health Service
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Posted - 2009.09.20 13:36:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Gsptlsnz Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 20/09/2009 12:47:30 Implants (and Learning Skills) are both just "Rookie Taxes". They delay the point at which a new player can afford to PvP.
I don't see this as good game design. EvE players seem to be prepared to accept the same costs of PvP as any other MMORPG, but the high "time-cost" of the equipment means that people do a lot less fighting. For rookies the cost is prohibitive, since if you PvP you will lose perhaps 5% of your training speed due to the implant effect.
Think about it high-SP players - what would you pay in ISK each month for an extra 5% training speed? *Thats* what rookies have to sacrifice. (or you can ignore the facts and pretend that rookies earn bllions per month).
I assure you that a month old character can be a useful member of a fleet. T1 disposable tackler duties are useful and most good PvP corps would be happy to pay for any T1 losses an enthusiastic rookie had.
I have about 60M SP and as stated above I dont use implants. Up untill the remap abilty came along I had **** attributes too because I chose the wrong race/bloodline.
As for older chars having billions a month. Err no I doubt I've had more than about 10 billion pass through my hands in my 5 years on and off in Eve.
PvP is what you make of it. It can be fun or it can be "but he's got better kit than me" / "he has more SP than me" . |
Gsptlsnz
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Posted - 2009.09.20 14:03:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 20/09/2009 14:04:28 Mrmuttley It doesn't much matter that there is a theorotical role for rookies in fleets, or that they can get T1 frigates replaced.
The issue is Training Speed. If you get caught up in any kind of PvP you're going to lose your implants. If you buy implants you're able to replace 5 times a day, it will cost you +2 on every attribute. Some people don't mind this, and train much slowly than they otherwise could. Others prioritize training speed, buy expensive implants, and that makes PvP far more of a risk for them than experienced players care to admit.
A lot of players say "that's the way EvE is", and it's true. But you have to accept the consequences too: if PvP is a boring, high-risk, high-cost, low-reward activity, rookies won't do it.
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Doomed Predator
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2009.09.20 14:13:00 -
[38]
I have a hard time believing he is actually serious. The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again |
Mrmuttley
National Health Service
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Posted - 2009.09.20 14:25:00 -
[39]
Not quite right there Gsptlsnz Your previous post said that there was a delay in where a rookie can afford to enter PvP my point was simply that no there isn't Oh sure a rookie is not going to join in with a HAC anytime soon but thats my whole point. You take a rookie into the corp and they volunteer to T1 tackle because they can't dish the damage out like Command ships and BS yet can and are you going to tell them no they can't come along for the ride? Or would you say OK but be aware you may be the first person to die and remember to try and worp out to save your pod.
. |
Gsptlsnz
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Posted - 2009.09.20 15:06:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 20/09/2009 15:06:54 MrM It makes no difference when you start PvP. It's still costing you +2 on every attribute - say 5% of your training speed.
This isn't a discussion about whether new players are motivated to PvP or not. They're not. A *few* PvP. The majority avoid it, because it's the right thing for them to do. There are many reasons for this. Implants are certainly a significant factor.
I¿m still new enough to EvE that I find it bizarre that the game channels me away from combat, but that's the way it's worked out.
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Morel Nova
z3r0 Gravity Wicked Nation
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Posted - 2009.09.20 16:23:00 -
[41]
I would like to see the old system back. e.g training implant effects last for the duration of the skill training. This was great for me during long skills as it let me do much more carefree/risky PVP (and in 0.0 you have to expect to get podded in each engagement due to bubbles).
Reward small gang/solo pvp!
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Tellenta
Gallente Invicta. Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.09.20 16:38:00 -
[42]
If the fear of losing implants prevents someone from pvping that just means they do not want to pvp. It is an excuse, a poor one at that. Their focus is on training the next skill, or making the best use of isk v. time. They do not gleefully fly in to the face of danger they look for excuses for why they should stay docked while their corp mates burn around him. Plain and simple if you fear the loss of anything to the point that you avoid risk you are going to remain in your hole of perceived safety until you get bored and quit. If losing 5 minutes of skill training before you plug in the 2 relevant implants again is a good reason to avoid pvp to someone there are even more reasons to avoid it for them implants is just one reason.
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Alexa Violet
Amarr Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.09.20 16:52:00 -
[43]
Originally by: F'nog I've never used implants on F'nog. Hells, I'm not even training a skill right now on him. And I'm fine with that.
Your mistake is that you think the most optimal acquisition of SPs has a certain effect on the game. If you want to have the most SPs, fine, but you'll never beat Dr. Caymus unless he quits or undocks (which he doesn't have to since he's entirely industrial) and then gets podded multiple times without a new clone.
Otherwise, if you're having fun with what you can do, why should you care that you're not maxing your SP/min?
Fun fact: I could have close to 100mil SP by now. I don't. I don't care that I don't either. I can have a whole lot of fun on a new alt with almost no SPs too. Hells, I'm even more likely to PvP because I don't care what happens to him.
easily the most stupid thing i've ever read on this forum, it's not about being like dr. caymus, you're paying money to be able to train and by choosing not to train you're choosing to not optimally use your money.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.09.20 16:58:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Alexa Violet easily the most stupid thing i've ever read on this forum, it's not about being like dr. caymus, you're paying money to be able to train and by choosing not to train you're choosing to not optimally use your money.
We're paying money to play the game. SP are cool and everything, but if someone wants to just stay as a frigate pilot they can do so quite happily and never train further.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.20 17:04:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Gsptlsnz Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 20/09/2009 15:06:54 MrM It makes no difference when you start PvP. It's still costing you +2 on every attribute - say 5% of your training speed.
Stop. No it isn't.
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Drakoulia
Caldari Exploding White Mice
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Posted - 2009.09.20 17:11:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Drakoulia on 20/09/2009 17:12:40 Am I the only one who thinks +5's make PvP even more fun? If you don't lose big when podded, why bother not getting podded. ---
Originally by: The Mittani Don't touch that! Don't open the refrigerator! The spy is in the refrigerator!
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Gsptlsnz
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Posted - 2009.09.20 17:15:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
We're paying money to play the game. SP are cool and everything, but if someone wants to just stay as a frigate pilot they can do so quite happily and never train further.
Perhaps this is true - but I doubt there are many paying customers who don't bother to train, and just cruise around in a shuttle.
People set their own objectives. Most of them require SP. The game is designed around this idea.
Ehere a trade-off is presented, such as Training Speed vs PvP for rookies, some people will choose one way, some the other. The decisions aren't random though - they reflect what CCP's paying customers want to do in the sandbox.
The majority seems to go with SP instead of PvP. This *cannot* be a "player error". CCP can deny the facts, or they can be concerned that new players aren't aware of the best ways to have fun; or they can reconsider the effect the game design has on player's actions. But neither they nor any other group of players, can say that any large group of EvE players is playing the game "wrong".
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Bonny Lee
Caldari The Guardian Agency Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.20 17:22:00 -
[48]
Usually the guys who pvp a lot later start regardless of their implants and those who stay in empire forever always tell me that they have implants, that they want to fly the hac first and so on and on...
I guess you¦ll never become a pvper in EvE if you care about so much...
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Mikayla Grey
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.20 17:28:00 -
[49]
The ones that dont pvp because of implants will find some other excuse to stay away from pvp if the imps are not destroyed.
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Miraqu
Caldari Marquie-X Corp Atropos.
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Posted - 2009.09.20 17:56:00 -
[50]
While doing PvP you just don't plug a whole set in. You have 5 JumpClones and every skill uses just two attributes at the same time.
Since you lose just 2 implants while podded even the loss of +5 gets bearable. Implants are really not the reason not to pvp, except if you want to pvp in cheap ships because you are afraid to risk something at all.
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Bo Bojangles
Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.09.20 18:13:00 -
[51]
I wouldn't bother trying to destroy pods if implants grew to be worthless,...
Not bothering to lock targets is bad for pvp.
For many, Eve pvp is about pushing that big pile of chips out onto the table,.. take risk away, and Eve isn't Eve.
If you don't pvp daily then you can use jump clones. If you do then pick up the cheapies.
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Haraldhardrade
Amarr Pax Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.20 18:46:00 -
[52]
I want implants that allow me to timetravel, and I want them, now! Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
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Landrassa
Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company
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Posted - 2009.09.20 19:28:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Gsptlsnz Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 20/09/2009 14:04:28 Mrmuttley It doesn't much matter that there is a theorotical role for rookies in fleets, or that they can get T1 frigates replaced.
The issue is Training Speed. If you get caught up in any kind of PvP you're going to lose your implants. If you buy implants you're able to replace 5 times a day, it will cost you +2 on every attribute. Some people don't mind this, and train much slowly than they otherwise could. Others prioritize training speed, buy expensive implants, and that makes PvP far more of a risk for them than experienced players care to admit.
A lot of players say "that's the way EvE is", and it's true. But you have to accept the consequences too: if PvP is a boring, high-risk, high-cost, low-reward activity, rookies won't do it.
Sorry, but that is just wrong. Unless you're stuck in a bubble, which only happens in 0.0, the only reason to lose your pod is an extreme case of bad luck(lag), stupidity or lack of knowledge. Even a Stiletto with 2 sensor boosters will miss a pod if the pilot trying to get away knows what he's doing. No skillpoints required, just a very simple technique you can see used in every video in the "My EVE" forum where the pilot shows himself losing ships.
Nevertheless, do go on making excuses instead of learning how the game actually works. And for the record, I've been pvp'ing with the same set of +5's since the loyalty point store was introduced to the game. Come and get 'm |
Ashireka
Minmatar Robot Pirate Ninja Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.20 19:29:00 -
[54]
I don't think keeping implants after being podded makes sense, either in a fictional sense, or from a market perspective. That said, I do think PvP comes across as particularly bad for new pilots.
There's the argument that even new pilots can act as tacklers. Fair enough, and true enough, but a) these pilots tend to get exploded first and very quickly and b) these pilots are the ones who get the *most* benefit from implants.
A new pilot is not going to have all their learning skills trained up to maximum, so they need to balance time spent training Learning skills, versus actually learning useful skills for PvP. Until that time, they end up being disposable "tacklers". While it is definitely a useful role, it's not really enticing. Everyone wants to feel "really useful", but getting 'sploded first every time, it gets old fast. It also requires you to have found a good corp/fleet so that you don't feel like you've chucked a ship, paid for a new clone, for nothing.
Also take into account the relative difficulty of getting a jump clone. The general pattern I've seen is, find a corp that has access to them, join them and get the clones. Grinding up stats on your own to get jump clones takes a significant amount of time, new players simply don't have easy access to them.
So there you are, new player. You're trying to play "catch up" on the skill training route, and the fastest way to do that is with implants, even if it's just to help speed up the Learning skill regimen. You have no access to jump clones, because you haven't really figured out the whole corporation-is-the-way-to-go theory (and honestly, some people don't like that route at all), and you haven't been around long enough to grind standings to get your own jump clones. You managed to get some implants (you get some from tutorial missions, or the faction missions, and they're honestly not that expensive to get some +2 or +3 implants, which, when you don't have your Learning skills trained up, is a LOT of improvement in time), are you going to want to risk them? When 1mil ISK seems like a LOT of money to you?
It's definitely a question for each person to answer. A patient person might be willing, figuring that losing the implants doesn't prevent you from continuing your training, figuring that even with maxed out implants and learning, you'll always be behind *someone*. But a lot of people see the benefits of the implants, which are particularly useful in that early game, and the reward of being a disposable tackler is not enough to justify the loss of the implants.
Jump clones are definitely the way to go, but they seem perhaps too unattainable by the people who really need them -- the new pilots with the most reason to keep their implants. There is already a built-in downside to using a jump clone -- you lose the benefit of your implants, for at least a 24-hour period while you're in your PvP, no-implants (or cheap implants) clone. I know I was REALLY hesitant early on to JC out to 0.0 for my corp because my implants were a significant improvement on my training time. So may the answer is, make Jump Clones more accessible to new players. What if you got Informorph Psych during the tutorial, and your home corp granted you access to *one* jump clone (only one clone), right off the bat? Just theorizing here. How would that affect behavior/balance?
-Ash
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robbyx
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Posted - 2009.09.20 19:51:00 -
[55]
Being able to remove implants from corpses you scoop after fights is the answer....much like salvaging wrecks, chance based.
I have to say although i live in NPC 0.0 and am constantly fighting...implants, or rather the thought of losing them does put me of taking on larger fleets or targets that i would like to have a go at.
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Rebecca Rhineheart
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Posted - 2009.09.20 20:22:00 -
[56]
So it's settled. Just make implants removable! The implant market will tank but they'll get over it. How about if we just got rid of the jump clone timer? Maybe we'll do that.
Oh but what to do about those expensive hardwirings. I mean you actually want to take those in battle with you, right? Make them insurable? Yeah perfect! Oh! Why not make all ship mods insurable too!! Yes!!
Man, why didn't they think of this stuff sooner?
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Rocktown
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Posted - 2009.09.20 20:51:00 -
[57]
corpse harvesting, call me crazy but I think hoarding corpses in hopes of salvaging some poor sap's implants out of his head would be pretty interesting. Everyone wins, more people pvp in hopes of salvaging a corpse, and more people pvp trying to rush back to their corpse in a ship so they can salvage their implants.
I realize the game all ready states implants can't be removed but i'm sure you could make up some rabble about taking them out of a dead guy is alot easier since there is no worry of damage.
-prepares for flame-
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.09.20 20:58:00 -
[58]
If people simply didn't podkill so freely, more PvP would happen.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.20 21:07:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula If people simply didn't podkill so freely, more PvP would happen.
Someone is good enough to entertain me by dying to my lasers and you think I shouldn't give him a helping hand back to his station?
You, sir, are no gentleman!
And on an economic note, replacement clones are a valuable ISK sink.
(also: squishy noise!)
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Chris Liath
Gallente Nex Exercitus Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.09.20 21:18:00 -
[60]
Hello.
How do you intend to explain that, lore-wise?
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. |
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