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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.09.21 21:06:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran I dont know why everyones flaming this I would love a Vaga with LSEs that gave the same HP as 1600mm plate and just think how good the HAM Drake and torp Raven would be.
That is exactly why we are flaming it.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.21 21:09:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega Why?
^^ This sums it up nicely. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.21 21:34:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Denuo Secus Drake with that omg-wtf-tank can do exactly one thing: tank. Nothing much more.
Shield tanks sacrifice tackle and ewar for tank. Armor tanks sacrifice damage for tank. If you, however, want to use the (naturally slow) passive shield regeneration as tank you have to sacrifice damage, ewar and tackle!
I don't believe this thread is serious! OP: did you try to PvP in a Drake using that mentioned uber tank? If not, just try it...
I tohugh this was a troll thread and treated it as such, if op is serious, let me laugh at him: Haha! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.09.21 21:40:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Forge Lag on 21/09/2009 21:41:54 Pasive shields need no cap.
Missiles need no cap.
Missiles have incredible range and awesome "tracking" (at least heavies do).
Missiles shoot resists holes (+25% kinetic or not, while blasters shoot Tengu highests resists).
Certain Tengu subsystem is horribly overpowered (it has equivalent of FOUR bonuses, all piled on the same weapon system; even worse, Loki or Legion would need FIVE to catch up, it is just crazy like that).
What a surprise, maybe CCP will finally look into it but I doubt since they just keep laughing at Drakes. If 1 v 2 is not argument I do not know what is.
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Iria Ahrens
Amarr 101st Space Marine Force Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.09.21 21:41:00 -
[35]
Sure, remove the ability of shields to recharge, just be sure to give Armor the ability to heal. --
EVE is about balls, brains, and paranoia. SP comes in a distant fourth place. |
Tiffis
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Posted - 2009.09.21 21:55:00 -
[36]
No.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.21 22:00:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Forge Lag Pasive shields need no cap.
Missiles need no cap.
Missiles have incredible range and awesome "tracking" (at least heavies do).
Missiles shoot resists holes (+25% kinetic or not, while blasters shoot Tengu highests resists).
…and no-cap PSTs are brittle and easy to break, unless you really pile on the LSEs and SPRs, at which point your missiles do zero damage as they never have a target to hit (no ECCM), or because their target leaves (no tackle) or because they… well, just don't do any damage (no BCSs).
Yes, PSTs can be very very nasty in PvE, but there's a reason why you don't bring PvE ship to a PvP fight: because they cannot kill anything. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Cadius Vect
CARDASSIANS
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Posted - 2009.09.21 22:25:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Cadius Vect on 21/09/2009 22:29:04 Op your an idiot. And to a lesser extent anyone that agrees with the OP is an idiot too.
The alliance tournament has very little bearing on actual PvP performance.
There is a boundary that if you go outside of, you get killed.
Of course this does not exist in real PvP so you have to fit tackle, therefore sacrificing tank on shield tanked ships to fit point and web.
In situations where tackle is not needed shield tanked ships will have a slight advantage because they don't have to sacrifice tank for damage, but this has absolutely no bearing on PvP combat on TQ. -----------------------------------------------------------
Killboard: http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Cadius+Vect-kills.html |
Thenoran
Caldari Pelican.
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Posted - 2009.09.21 22:57:00 -
[39]
It's called resists, the Proteus was shooting Kinetic and Thermal with its blasters, the two highest resist on a T2/T3 Caldari Ship. The Tengu did not and was firing Havoc Missiles (explosive) which is the weakest resist on a T2/T3 Gallente ship.
Also, shield tanks are supposed to be different. On top of that, shield tanks tend to work less often when half the mids have to go to tackle gear. ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2009.09.21 23:08:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Lexa Hellfury You're an idiot.
I concur.
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Sub Trader
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Posted - 2009.09.22 00:09:00 -
[41]
shield should recharge at the same amount consistantly, none of this peak recharge nonsence.
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Baillif
Red Mist Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.22 00:23:00 -
[42]
Using the alliance tourney as a benchmark for which shipsor mods are OP is idiotic. The alliance tournament is different from real pvp. You are basically in a cage with someone that cant warp away so tackle becomes less paramount. The weaknesses of Caldari ships are somewhat mitigated by this circumstance and more midslots can be attributed to tank without severe consequences (IE the enemy ship laughing at you for not having tackle and warping away).
In real PVP caldari ships that do not have other ships doing the tackling for them have someone run away from them. The other big downside is we have no real idea how those ships were fitted so we really don't know if anyone was poorly fitted for the situation or just an assclown of a pilot.
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2009.09.22 17:03:00 -
[43]
No one is stating any module or ship as overpowered. My observation was based on the expert and development team and to a much less extent CCP Soundwave's (much much lesser, tiny) dislike of the Drake as a pvp ship.
My proposal, if anything will be a buff to the caldari ships. The change will provide shield buffer tankers with a larger buffer and better resist. More DPS because the low slots are freed up for damage mods (or speed mods if you prefer). It will improve the caldari Battleship class's survivability in large gangs (recharge rate in BS class is useless)
It will also make active repair modules necessary for smaller size skirmishes. No matter how good a buffer tank is, it will eventually fail without recharge.
In answer to the Baillif, I am pretty sure an Alliance Tournament fitted tech3 ship in the later rounds is fitted properly. You should watch the entire final day and listen to the commentators before you post here again. Oh and I concur with Lex Hellfury and Duchess Starbuckington.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.22 18:02:00 -
[44]
Originally by: XFreedomX
It will also make active repair modules necessary for smaller size skirmishes. No matter how good a buffer tank is, it will eventually fail without recharge.
The same way they're required for armor tanking currently? I really don't think your idea will work out as you intend it to.
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2009.09.22 18:07:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: XFreedomX
It will also make active repair modules necessary for smaller size skirmishes. No matter how good a buffer tank is, it will eventually fail without recharge.
The same way they're required for armor tanking currently? I really don't think your idea will work out as you intend it to.
Key here is small size skirmishes, dual Armor rep fit on a Domi for example. I would go for Shield Booster fit for Sleipnir on small skirmishes if I get another 10% shield resist bonus (none stack penalized) for skill.
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Alsyth
Astromechanica Maxima
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Posted - 2009.09.22 18:12:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Alsyth on 22/09/2009 18:12:31
Originally by: Nito Musashi that tengu had to eat thru one proteus on the way out to web him, the 2nd proteus was nearly 100% by the time the tengu started working on him by that time he was within blaster range, commentators said "now that the proterus has closed the distance he should have the dps advantage, well it looked like a slaughter at that point, the proteus was woefully lacking in dps vs the shield recharge, did the 2nd proteus have a webber on? after they started up it seemed the tengu managed to get some distance on the 2nd proteus not a ton of it but did seemed it managed to pull out a bit.
had the 2nd proteus overheated its guns already earlier in the fight and had no heat left to use? too many factors involved wo seeing exactly what was going on and what they had fitted each.
but on the pure face of it shot in the dark type deal i think you could argue that blasters in general need a bit of a dps boost if proteus vs tengu when the blaster boat gets in range and can supposedly apply moar dps than the missle boat and proceeds to get pwnd even tho his armor was at near 100% and the tengu was in a bit worse shape from the 2 proteus shooting him while they closed.
Maybe the tengu was hitting the typical 70% Explosive hole of the proteus while the Proteus was hitting the typical 90 - 95% Thermal/Kinetic resistance of the Tengu... Resulting in 3 times more effectiveness of the applied dps.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.22 19:43:00 -
[47]
Simple fix boost hitpoints on shield extenders but give them a -x shield recharge. Then boost up the shield recharge bonus on shield recharge. Passive tanks are now split back into buffer or HP regen tanks not both. Shield Rechargers are now useful again.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.09.22 20:10:00 -
[48]
Originally by: XFreedomX Having seen the Proteius vs Tengu fight, I thought to myself, this is not right. A tech3 ship should be able to overcome a buffer tank on any ship and not be perma tanked by shield recharge rate.
Tournament does not equal tranquility.
Don't base ship balancing on tournament, unless you plan on pvping with a 300km diameter warp bubble, and jove ships on standby to destroy people leaving your 'arena'.
Strong passive recharge fits fail in pvp anyways - they require killing your dps with shield power relays.
They can also be reduced past peak recharge (33%) by strong alpha - you can destroy a recharge drake faster than a buffer drake, if your alpha (2-3 BS) is high enough.
The OP is terrible - shields need regen to compensate for lower HP ammount (compare large shield extenders to 1600mm armor plates).
Its also to compensate for the fact that you kill your shield tank fitting propulsion/tackle/cap injection.
-1 to OP.
Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You |
baltec1
Antares Shipyards Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.09.22 20:30:00 -
[49]
Originally by: XFreedomX No one is stating any module or ship as overpowered. My observation was based on the expert and development team and to a much less extent CCP Soundwave's (much much lesser, tiny) dislike of the Drake as a pvp ship.
My proposal, if anything will be a buff to the caldari ships. The change will provide shield buffer tankers with a larger buffer and better resist. More DPS because the low slots are freed up for damage mods (or speed mods if you prefer). It will improve the caldari Battleship class's survivability in large gangs (recharge rate in BS class is useless)
It will also make active repair modules necessary for smaller size skirmishes. No matter how good a buffer tank is, it will eventually fail without recharge.
In answer to the Baillif, I am pretty sure an Alliance Tournament fitted tech3 ship in the later rounds is fitted properly. You should watch the entire final day and listen to the commentators before you post here again. Oh and I concur with Lex Hellfury and Duchess Starbuckington.
This will destroy my pvp iteron V.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.22 20:56:00 -
[50]
Originally by: XFreedomX After watching the Alliance Tournament on EveTV a thought occured to me.
Wouldn't it be great if shields do not recharge!
Yes, get rid of the shield recharge and increase shield extender to the same amount as their armor extender counter part. Replace shield recharge skills with shield resist bonus skills (maybe 2% per level or something like that)
What do you all think?
I for one would welcome 5000hp large shield extenders. ZOMG MY BUFFER TANKED DRAKE!
ProTipÖ: tourney combat =/= real combat
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lord orei
Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2009.09.23 01:36:00 -
[51]
Someone said shields are better than armor for pvp ............... and wasn't joking. LOL
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.23 01:56:00 -
[52]
Originally by: lord orei Someone said shields are better than armor for pvp ............... and wasn't joking. LOL
The real reason its better is because it gives you more speed then plates do :). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.09.23 02:41:00 -
[53]
Originally by: XFreedomX After watching the Alliance Tournament on EveTV a thought occured to me.
Wouldn't it be great if shields do not recharge!
Yes, get rid of the shield recharge and increase shield extender to the same amount as their armor extender counter part. Replace shield recharge skills with shield resist bonus skills (maybe 2% per level or something like that)
What do you all think?
I think we don't need HAM Drakes with 150K EHP killing everything.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
XFreedomX
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Posted - 2009.09.23 05:52:00 -
[54]
Omarvelous, this is very funny. Your post quoted below is one of the reason I made this thread. If you hate passive shield recharge tank with such a passion why would you be anti removing it in favor of larger shield extender hp and higher shield resist?
Originally by: Omarvelous Shield power relays/purgers on pvp drake is the worst possible ship in the game, its a selfish ship that does **** all for its teammates. I hate them with a passion. My Thrasher does more damage ffs.
HAM drakes are fail in this tournament because a proper heavy missile drake (3x damage mods) - does nearly as much damage at 3x the range and so eliminates hostile support really well.
In tranq the range isn't as useful because you need to tackle things - so if you're fitting a point you may as well go max dps with HAMs. If you're going for range use a cerb. Cerbs suck in the tournament because you have to warp in at 50km and the field is small enough that being able to spam missiles to 250km isn't really all that useful.
Thats why you see a lot of heavy missile drakes instead of HAM drakes, and why passive regen drakes are gay.
Also, if I recall correctly it is your team which pulled off the 1 tengu solo kills 2 harbinger and 2 brutix match in AT7 round 2.
-1 Omarvelous, +1 OP
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Kail Storm
Caldari The Unforgiving.
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Posted - 2009.09.23 07:15:00 -
[55]
To guys who think drakes are so over powered and shields are unfair please by all means rigg up and fit some super pwn shield ships and please go fleet battle a all amarr/gal/armor rep fleet and see how well you guys do....
Basically yes the passive/Buffer tank is great in a 4 v 4 controlled fight where you arent getting primaried by 25 ships all shooting masive alpha strike bs`s etc but it really lacks in big fleet combat right now.
True shields passive tank is good but its not at all a afk missioner maybe some missions but go try and fit drake and aggro wrong group and get 3 respawns more and you will pop very fast and since fof`s kill everything you will.
Basically sub 5 ships where rr isnt needed usually smaller 5v5 engagements the smaller passive tank ships are great but add 80km sniper support and 10 more ships that rr and they are dead. The turret/Armor ships eat up the shield/Missle boats because at 100km they get 1.8 volleys before the missles even hit and have no rr.
So it goes 10+BS/BC RR Armor clear winner 5-10=Very close +10=Armor fleet bigtime win, and unlike the tourney you dont know who you are facing and cant know already that you are fighting prots and to kite them. So I think Tourney was very good for Tengu rook NH etc but with unknown enemies that do the biggest hole dmg resist in em while they have to fit for omni dmg is very hard.
Plus since the Cald/Mim Shield boats have a tiny bit of passive and get screwed on active rep since its nerfed due to drakes recharge etc and it gets way less HP`s from the LSE VS the trimarks/Plates.
I think its already at disadvantage it doesnt have pwr for torps and great tackle/Tank unless you are skilled out, where amarr/Gal breeze through fitting so you have to look at all parts of probs not just a weak ass tourney fight where pilots could be in exp etc. breezes
Raven= Barely a passive tank with lse`s that add 2600 hp and a huge sig radius when fitted so basically no misses from enemy even at close range, and 6 torps that almost max out pwr grid so its hard to fit nuets that take so much more. and a slot layout that is very divided being 8/6/5 so you cant fit a huge tank because you need tackle. MWD/Scram/Web/Target painter/LSE/Invuln. Or you can armor it and be at even bigger disadvantage with 5 slots.
Abby= Barely passive tank but still there, 1600 plate adds 4400 hp that makes it slower which it already is very slow so who cares it still has straight line [which is what counts for missle dmg] 8 Huge guns with 25% dmg bonus with enough to fit it gorgeous tank with 7 lo`s to fit a massive tank/gank ontop of its 25% resists bonus, and 4 mids to fit great tackle and cap charger/cap booster with out sacraficing anything. You get best BS in game with 7 lo`s and MWD SCRAM WEB and cap injector....REDICULOUS.
Brawler vs brawler not saying raven isnt good just pointing out armor has higher natural resists, faster active rep by far and way bigger/almost double HP extenders in Plate v LSE als oonly shield ships tend to have fitting issues for anyone but perfect skills. Geddon which is teir 1 and very cheap is in ravens league but still IMO beats it because RR and because scorch is insane.
If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
Kail Storm
Caldari The Unforgiving.
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Posted - 2009.09.23 07:47:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Forge Lag
Pasive shields need no cap. Missiles need no cap. Missiles have incredible range and awesome "tracking" (at least heavies do). Missiles shoot resists holes (+25% kinetic or not, while blasters shoot Tengu highests resists). Certain Tengu subsystem is horribly overpowered (it has equivalent of FOUR bonuses, all piled on the same weapon system; even worse, Loki or Legion would need FIVE to catch up, it is just crazy like that). What a surprise, maybe CCP will finally look into it but I doubt since they just keep laughing at Drakes. If 1 v 2 is not argument I do not know what is.
Originally by: Forge Lag Edited by: Forge Lag on 21/09/2009 21:41:54 Pasive shields need no cap.
Missiles need no cap.
Missiles have incredible range and awesome "tracking" (at least heavies do).
Missiles shoot resists holes (+25% kinetic or not, while blasters shoot Tengu highests resists).
Certain Tengu subsystem is horribly overpowered (it has equivalent of FOUR bonuses, all piled on the same weapon system; even worse, Loki or Legion would need FIVE to catch up, it is just crazy like that).
What a surprise, maybe CCP will finally look into it but I doubt since they just keep laughing at Drakes. If 1 v 2 is not argument I do not know what is.
Wow man im sorry bt think about it....
1] Passive needs no cap because passive blows in pvp and since it only packs half the EHP a similar due to half the plate vs LSE it doesnt have enough ehp to wether a 1 really good bs dps esp since shield mods make a already huge drake like a damned moon size...We could be flying with 2 abs and still not be small enough.
Serious if a drake can tank 350 dps with tackle it still will get blasted by a 700 dps harb or 600 dps cane and god forbid a 1k dps amarr/gal bs, so lots of passive=bailing out water ontop of the fact that that drake will put out puny dps...Im talking like 200 dps guys almost a punishers
2] Incred range yes awesome tracking not so much, depends on target but fast cruiser we do 50-60% dmg frigs 30% we finally hit bc`s full but only do less than gank weps. Plus we have a "Max range" we can not shoot past you guys ca swapp ammo and go way beyond falloff etc and with scorch dont complain you do way more dmg at great range plus like I said drake and all cald are bricks for there classes and have huge sig radius so you can score great hits. Talk to ham guys 24 km and does same dps as scorch isnt amazing or overpowered at all guys.
3]Lol what??? Proteus and IShkur and most Gal t2 are great against Kin LOL 85% base resist for proteus is wha twe get dmg bonus for ...wow what are you smoking? Serious what did you mean by cald shoots your weak resist? I wish my resist was 85% across the board. They are designed to both do well against each other. Also to my knowledge ishkur is one of best missioner there is almost since its natural KIN resist is amazing.
4] Lol Over powered sub systems ...Do the math man its over powered because we cant have drones...This doesnt jus tkill some dps it kills flexibility in battle, while the Prots can warp in and unleash the drones its so good with and maul them with blasters, it can also sit there and ECM drone the guy to death while the guns chew it up not to mention the ECM drone escape factor all you need is 9 secs to clear the field after the ecm have done it and its more than enough, also the extra 10-15 secs to reacquire adds 3 volleys and more ecm chances. Ive heard tons of tengu guys including me ask for a 25 dronebay ontop of it to defend ourselves
Tengu Proteus 5% Rof vs 5% to medium hybrid dmg=same 7.5% dmg bonus with kin missles vs 10% dmg of drones So since the missle bomus is to the Kin missle which has a 85% base dmg resist and will go up with energized plate it doesnt do much to your proteus, where as the drone dmg is selectable and can also go towards ecm to wreck shop. Please respond. If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
Kail Storm
Caldari The Unforgiving.
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Posted - 2009.09.23 07:53:00 -
[57]
Last thing
Plus the other subs for the Tengu are really bad and fit for pve not as much pvp like prot.
5]All in all you are totally off base IMO and obviously have never flown Tengu if you had you would realize without a ton of ISK its very hard to fit a LSE and MWD... VERY HARD and with 6 ham launchers it gets almost to hard so you need all faction etc just to fit it with great skills.
I had to waste a rig slot just to fit LSE 6 missles and a AB, I had to use a ACR rig for the extra power cald ships are always under powered. Please respond wit hyour thoughts but I think you way off. If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.09.24 03:28:00 -
[58]
Originally by: XFreedomX Omarvelous, this is very funny. Your post quoted below is one of the reason I made this thread. If you hate passive shield recharge tank with such a passion why would you be anti removing it in favor of larger shield extender hp and higher shield resist?
Also, if I recall correctly it is your team which pulled off the 1 tengu solo kills 2 harbinger and 2 brutix match in AT7 round 2.
-1 Omarvelous, +1 OP
I may hate passive regen shield setups - but I find some regen quite acceptable on buffer shield tanks.
If I'm tackling - I can't spare the mids to fit an active shield tank on top of it. Armor tankers can fit a gate camp setup and still tackle.
You need some regen on buffer setups otherwise shield tanks will be even worse for low-sec pvp.
Armor can be pure buffer and no-regen because you can spare a mid slot for a cap injector to run remote reps. Remote shield rep ships need some native regen assistance, because they're using up a tanking slot for a cap booster.
Also - The tengu you're referring to wasn't regen tank fit, not sure of your point in bringing it up.
Honestly - shields need to have a different flavor to defense than armor - making them the same removes play style differences, and screws up my sandbox.
I say this as a pilot that uses both armor tanking and shield tanking ships.
Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You |
XFreedomX
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Posted - 2009.09.24 05:27:00 -
[59]
Now I understand. You like the system the way it is, just not happy when others use the sandbox differently.
By nature of the shield recharge, all Buffer Shield tank is also a Passive recharge tank. The difference is only shades of gray.
The tengu on your team which beat 4 battlecruiser probably fitted 2 LSE which gives it a peak recharge rate close to a medium shield booster. No other tech3 cruiser can pull off a 1 vs 4 BC engagement.
That match was a great demonstration of the advantages missile system and passive shield recharge over armor buffer tank. The BCs had to deal with running out of cap, had to close range with mwd and every point of armor lost is gone. While the tengu do not need cap, do not need to fit cap boosters nor ECCM because it can switch to fofs.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2009.09.24 05:43:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Lexa Hellfury You're an idiot.
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