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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Akaike
The Bentusi Legacy
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Posted - 2009.10.14 22:43:00 -
[1111]
Edited by: Akaike on 14/10/2009 22:43:26 Dear Nozh,
I hope that you are looking at this thread and getting some good ideas, yes I know there are some terrible ideas to avoid. Your absentee from this particular thread makes me very nervous. As a pay customer with 3 accounts (like most of the people in here, I am lead to believe that I have a right to know more. To know more about the current ideas and if you plan to add more change to the Minmatar beyond what is unanimously voted as not enough change. If you can find the time to write a 10 sec message reassuring us that we are being listened to, I am sure this thread will get a little more calm. I hope this message finds you well for I very well could become your greatest fan.
Akaike
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.10.14 23:22:00 -
[1112]
Originally by: Akaike I have a right to know more.
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Koltranx
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Posted - 2009.10.14 23:43:00 -
[1113]
Edited by: Koltranx on 14/10/2009 23:43:59
Originally by: Ecky X
Let me guess you are a female from Libya who struggles with the understanding of rights?
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Evengard
Solar Dragons SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2009.10.15 02:14:00 -
[1114]
Originally by: Tyler Lowe
Tempest: +1 turret slot. -2 launcher slots, +1 lowslot +5%/level ROF +10%/level falloff
No. This is wrong.
First, this will reduce damage even more. And with crappy optimal tempest be same as Maelstrom with 7 turrets.
Slot layout 8\5\7 will be superior to other battleships.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1189163
In this thread i discribed and calculated general changes to Tempest. It also needs balancing in grid \ CPU, but this is up to CCP. ________________ Recon and Intercept
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.10.15 09:47:00 -
[1115]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 15/10/2009 09:51:55
People forget that as long as the Tempest has 6 lows, it will forever be a pretty ****ty ship for anything substantial.
1) Poorest tank 2) Less likely to fit enough damage mods to compensate.
That combined with the fact that there are just so many more ships that are superior armour tankers, (double the number of armour battleships as compared to shield tankers) the tempest just falls behind. Most serious pilots consider the phoon better for close and the Maelstrom better for everything else.
I've got a shield tanking solution (see signature) combined with a whole bunch of other stuff that should help the Tempest find it's niche. As everyone has there own way of flying this ship, I can imagine not everyone would be happy, however it'll be an improvement as I don't think that until theres a slot layout change with the Tempest anyone will be happy with it as the issue is one of relative performance within niches when compared to there peers. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.15 10:38:00 -
[1116]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 15/10/2009 09:51:55
People forget that as long as the Tempest has 6 lows, it will forever be a pretty ****ty ship for anything substantial.
1) Poorest tank 2) Less likely to fit enough damage mods to compensate.
That combined with the fact that there are just so many more ships that are superior armour tankers, (double the number of armour battleships as compared to shield tankers) the tempest just falls behind. Most serious pilots consider the phoon better for close and the Maelstrom better for everything else.
I've got a shield tanking solution (see signature) combined with a whole bunch of other stuff that should help the Tempest find it's niche. As everyone has there own way of flying this ship, I can imagine not everyone would be happy, however it'll be an improvement as I don't think that until theres a slot layout change with the Tempest anyone will be happy with it as the issue is one of relative performance within niches when compared to there peers.
Or just give do nothing to the tempest and give it another turret and grid+cpu to fit it (and fix autocannons). It will do a ******ed amount of dps, and the drawback will be a crappy tank. Seems fair to me. ---
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.10.15 11:34:00 -
[1117]
Originally by: Nuts Nougat
Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 15/10/2009 09:51:55
People forget that as long as the Tempest has 6 lows, it will forever be a pretty ****ty ship for anything substantial.
1) Poorest tank 2) Less likely to fit enough damage mods to compensate.
That combined with the fact that there are just so many more ships that are superior armour tankers, (double the number of armour battleships as compared to shield tankers) the tempest just falls behind. Most serious pilots consider the phoon better for close and the Maelstrom better for everything else.
I've got a shield tanking solution (see signature) combined with a whole bunch of other stuff that should help the Tempest find it's niche. As everyone has there own way of flying this ship, I can imagine not everyone would be happy, however it'll be an improvement as I don't think that until theres a slot layout change with the Tempest anyone will be happy with it as the issue is one of relative performance within niches when compared to there peers.
Or just give do nothing to the tempest and give it another turret and grid+cpu to fit it (and fix autocannons). It will do a ******ed amount of dps, and the drawback will be a crappy tank. Seems fair to me.
With another turret you'll be a better sniper, but you'll really only do about 30-40 more dps, you'll still be out ganked by alot of things with way more EHP than you. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
Tyler Lowe
DROW Org Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2009.10.15 14:34:00 -
[1118]
Originally by: Evengard Edited by: Evengard on 15/10/2009 04:51:47
Originally by: Tyler Lowe
Tempest: +1 turret slot. -2 launcher slots, +1 lowslot +5%/level ROF +10%/level falloff
No. This is wrong.
First, this will reduce damage even more. And with crappy optimal tempest be same as Maelstrom with 7 turrets.
Slot layout 8\5\7 will be superior to other battleships.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1189163
In this thread i discribed and calculated general changes to Tempest. It also needs balancing in grid \ CPU, but this is up to CCP.
I don't mind at all being disagreed with, but you have failed to take into account the effect of a damage mod in that extra lowslot. The overall impact on the Tempest istself, would be an increase to DPS of just under 5% assuming a 3rd damage modifier vs 2. If the question is one of a 2nd damage modifier vs a single mod, the damage increase is 11.6%. Any launcher DPS would be lost, but this was countered with an increase in drone bay size and bandwidth.
Also, the Tempest would not be the same as a "crappy Maelstrom" given the increase in range a 50% boost to falloff would grant. A Maelstrom, assuming 3 optimal scripts/enhancers in play and the new falloff addition to modules, is looking at 152+~67(44*1.15*1.15*1.15). That should be roughly 285DPS at 180km. My Tempest proposal would allow for 296DPS inside of optimal. Falloff, assuming the same three modules would be 100km, extending the ship's effective range out to 200km at 220DPS, a range at which the Maelstrom would be doing 190. At that same range, a Megathron would be at 234 DPS as a point of reference. All of this is before taking the increase in magazine size and refire duration into account.
I don't own Excel, and I'm not about to run out and buy a copy to run one of those nice graphs people are posting so I can't produce damage curves to illustrate the point, but I also did not sign up for Spreadsheet Online.
I could have suggested optimal, but this seemed to pigeon-hole the ship as an artillery platform only. Maybe that would still be for the best.
As far as the module count, I'm less interested in the path to balance than I am the destination. If the end result is a balanced ship, the number of slots doesn't mean a thing.
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Tyler Lowe
DROW Org Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2009.10.15 14:43:00 -
[1119]
Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 14/10/2009 20:31:29
Originally by: Tyler Lowe I know, it a discussion about the weapons, but how do you seperate them from the ships?
Thoughts on this?
Tempest:
+1 turret slot.
-2 launcher slots,
+1 lowslot
+5%/level ROF +10%/level falloff
+3000 grid +40 CPU
drone bay 125m^3 bandwidth: 100
Fleet version: +1 turret slot.
Loses damage, gains EHP. Becomes obsoleted by the typhoon in short range. Becomes a slightly better fleet sniper, but damage goes from pathetic to worse.
Would only work if it got the speed/agility advantage (re: loss of damage, introduction of falloff), otherwise it will suffer from maelstrom-whales disease.
ed: also, I'd rather have mids if you want a mid-range ship.
Some valid points here to consider. I agree that the ship would also need a mass reduction. I think the actual damage on target would need to be tested tbh though. You lose a turret, but pick up a significant amount of range, and a heavy drone.
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RedSplat
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.10.15 19:48:00 -
[1120]
1KM FALLOFF IS NOT EQUAL IN USEFULNESS TO 1KM OPTIMAL
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
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Elaron
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.15 20:05:00 -
[1121]
Originally by: RedSplat 1KM FALLOFF IS NOT EQUAL IN USEFULNESS TO 1KM OPTIMAL
Some people don't seem to get that. Perhaps they'll agree changing the bonus of Scorch ammo from being +50% optimal to +150% falloff. This will change Megapulse from having a 45km + 10km optimal + falloff to 30km + 25km. Exactly the same as before, right?
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Mayweather Edstonbery
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Posted - 2009.10.15 21:02:00 -
[1122]
Edited by: Mayweather Edstonbery on 15/10/2009 21:03:09 Don't you guys get it?
Nozh isn't going to reply because Nozh didn't like the feedback this thread generated. He has discovered that the problem is far more complex than he thought it was, and is now not going to reply to any of the ideas in here and in a few weeks he will just un-sticky this thread and watch it die. It's the exact same thing he did here and here.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.15 21:42:00 -
[1123]
Originally by: Mayweather Edstonbery
Nozh isn't going to reply because Nozh didn't like the feedback this thread generated. He has discovered that the problem is far more complex than he thought it was, and is now not going to reply to any of the ideas in here and in a few weeks he will just un-sticky this thread and watch it die. It's the exact same thing he did here and here.
Well, I think the feedback on the proposed changes has been mostly positive. I don't think it's going to get scuttled. The ongoing debates seem to be a few pretentious shouting matches, sprinkled with ideas about what else needs to get fixed.
Namely, what should happen with this part of his original post:
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Other things we might be looking at: ò Auto-cannon tracking adjustments ò Auto-cannon tier balancing
Nozh, if you've stomached this thread thus far, we'd like to hear something meaty on the subject.
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Roland Thorne
Dark Sun Collective Kahora Catori
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Posted - 2009.10.15 22:38:00 -
[1124]
Originally by: Seriously Bored Nozh, if you've stomached this thread thus far, we'd like to hear something meaty on the subject.
If he hasn't been keeping track, it might take him a week to catch up! I'll be happy to hear of any adjustments to what he said they were working on.
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.10.16 09:08:00 -
[1125]
Originally by: Mayweather Edstonbery Edited by: Mayweather Edstonbery on 15/10/2009 21:03:09 Don't you guys get it?
Nozh isn't going to reply because Nozh didn't like the feedback this thread generated. He has discovered that the problem is far more complex than he thought it was, and is now not going to reply to any of the ideas in here and in a few weeks he will just un-sticky this thread and watch it die. It's the exact same thing he did here and here.
He probably had a spare one or two days to come up with something, now he's probably on to official domination stuff. Sad really, in an internet spaceship game, the last thing you'd thought would be put into the back seat would be the spaceships.
Originally by: RedSplat 1KM FALLOFF IS NOT EQUAL IN USEFULNESS TO 1KM OPTIMAL
And this, some guys need to drop the fall off tinted glasses already. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
Mr Opinions
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Posted - 2009.10.16 11:03:00 -
[1126]
We could start a "Where is CCP Nozh?" thread.
It would probably end up with some other dev pointing him to the thread.
Anyway, let's hope something gets enacted. One thing everyone agrees on is that the status quo is no good.
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Lemmy Kravitz
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Posted - 2009.10.16 11:30:00 -
[1127]
Edited by: Lemmy Kravitz on 16/10/2009 11:34:39 eh at this point I'll throw this out there. Fix the clip sizes so they are all the same. Do what CCP is doing so far I like it. Only difference I would do for mimi flavor. Up our chances for a wrecking shot slightly. nothing but just 5% more chance compared t everyone else and I'd be really happy. As it is anything you do to arties is an improvement.
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Roland Thorne
Dark Sun Collective Kahora Catori
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Posted - 2009.10.16 16:33:00 -
[1128]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Originally by: RedSplat 1KM FALLOFF IS NOT EQUAL IN USEFULNESS TO 1KM OPTIMAL
And this, some guys need to drop the fall off tinted glasses already.
Minmatar has always been about the falloff. CCP starts balancing optimal and a I guarantee you that instead of blasters, projectiles and lasers, we will have 3 versions of the same thing.
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Uncle Smokey
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Posted - 2009.10.16 17:25:00 -
[1129]
Originally by: Roland Thorne
what arr ya talkin about? I thought people had issues about sharing around 40% of the pain instead of 50% @ falloff x1? |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.10.16 19:06:00 -
[1130]
Originally by: Roland Thorne
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Originally by: RedSplat 1KM FALLOFF IS NOT EQUAL IN USEFULNESS TO 1KM OPTIMAL
And this, some guys need to drop the fall off tinted glasses already.
Minmatar has always been about the falloff. CCP starts balancing optimal and a I guarantee you that instead of blasters, projectiles and lasers, we will have 3 versions of the same thing.
Basically what you mean here is that balance is bad and takes diversity. You are wrong, balance can be achieved preserving diversity, and imbalance is not desirable in a game even if it implies in more diversity. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
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Elaron
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.16 19:33:00 -
[1131]
Originally by: Roland Thorne Minmatar has always been about the falloff. CCP starts balancing optimal and a I guarantee you that instead of blasters, projectiles and lasers, we will have 3 versions of the same thing.
Minmatar was always about having the lightest, nimblest, fastest ships as well. That concept was swept aside during the speed revamp.
There'd be nothing wrong with admitting that something (ie, falloff) is a crap mechanic to rely on. Especially when the negative impact it has is worse than a superficial look implies it is.
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.10.16 22:46:00 -
[1132]
Why not give some mim ships the ability to negate the sig radius increase for shield mods so that they stay small and fast, or give them a highly reduced mod in adding armor mass?
Seriously guys mim`s are supposed to be the experts in speed
60% reduction in Sig radius mod penelty
50% mass mod reduction, give thme the speed and agility and size they deserve since mim ships are almost 1 size down... Like Cane is basically a pimped out slow cruiser and there bs`s are basically equal to most BC`s with a tad more give em a big boost in Sig radius to make em harder to hit therefore more ehp against opponets that matter likeraven or Abby etc.
Id this a bad idea? Why?
If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
Roland Thorne
Dark Sun Collective Kahora Catori
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Posted - 2009.10.17 02:21:00 -
[1133]
Originally by: Elaron
Originally by: Roland Thorne Minmatar has always been about the falloff. CCP starts balancing optimal and a I guarantee you that instead of blasters, projectiles and lasers, we will have 3 versions of the same thing.
Minmatar was always about having the lightest, nimblest, fastest ships as well. That concept was swept aside during the speed revamp.
Minmatar did not have the fastest ships even before the speed nerf. We're talking some old balance problems here.
Originally by: Elaron There'd be nothing wrong with admitting that something (ie, falloff) is a crap mechanic to rely on. Especially when the negative impact it has is worse than a superficial look implies it is.
I like falloff. It is not a crap mechanic. I like being able to hit SB at 30 km with mid autos. I like being able to choose whether or not I feel like getting into optimal, or just pelting them from afar for less damage. I think it a very valuable game mechanic to have, and it would be a pity for autos to merely be a tier above blasters in range, etc. Its boring! idk... if ccp decides its better to just make it that way, then fine. I'm not emo-quiting, but I don't think you understand how useful falloff is.
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Deltaprimus
Shadow Legion. SCUM.
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Posted - 2009.10.17 02:49:00 -
[1134]
Seriously i mean wtf?!
I didnt intend to leave this thread although ive been thinking about it for a while. Your buffering one of the most feared races for pvp to make them even better when caldari are so incredibly underpowered at pvp its insane.
Caldari have been known for few things in pvp but they were mainly the following: -ECM -Missiles killing nano's -Drakes having an insane tank Now lets look at today what are they renowned for now? Being absolutely, unimaginably inept at doing anything other than fleet warfare.
ECM: when a caldari showed up on the battlefield in a bb, falcon or ecm ship the occupants of that battle on the opposing side were scared And rightly so. They knew that caldari ships were good at making their weapon systems useless. All their superior dps and amazingly overpowered weapons compared to the caldari were made unusable.
So what happens, the other three races moan so much that caldaris ace card gets taken off them. Now a falcon cant even get the jame strength to perma jam a bs in one jammer. Now they loose that bonus point. So they can now only kill nanos with missiles and the drake has a good tank...
Missiles: After the speed nerf caldari actually had a purpose on the battlefield other than ecm. We could kill fast moving ships better than any other race due to missiles. The eve universe found this concept of caldari pvpers being better than them at something so obtuse people whined and whined until then missiles were nerfed so there was absolutley no point to nerfing speed cus after the missile nerf we still couldnt hit them! Yet again -1 caldari
Drake: Used to be one of the toughest nuts in the game. Nearly uncrakable. 18months of being a drake pilot and i can now be solo'd. A concept that was unthinkable 18 months ago. Other races have been buffered so much that they can crack a drake solo. And if i wanted to make my drake un crackable i have to loose the point for more resists or shield. -1 caldari
The flip side: -Amarr have had their lasers rebuffed after years of having them nerfed due to the fact they were deemed to powerful. What was the point in nerfing them back then if you were just gunna rebuff them to the same damage a few years later? -Minmattar have had speed nerfed but to counter this they moaned until caldari got nerfed so the speed nerf became irrelevant. -Caldari have never been allowed a proper drone bay. Every other race has adapted their technology to allow drones to be used as a major source of dps. A fact which means they out dps their caldari counterpart all of the time. What the hell has happened to caldari's military tech research team. Have they had theire head stuck in a black hole the last 4 years?
Outcome: after 18months of paying for a game and training a character the buffs ccp have introduced for other races and the nerfs they constantly inflict upon the caldari are making my character obsolete. I have paid 18months of subscription trained for a pvp char that is very quickly being made useless by ccp's constant grudge against the caldari race.
It has finally got to the point with the insinuation that minmattar are so underpowered because they cant hit anything cus they move so fast. well newsflash most of us cant hit you cus u go so damn fast. Here's an idea try going slower and we might be able to start hitting each other!
I guess what it comes down to is ive just realised that ive spent 18months on a char that just became a waste of isk! I think its fair to say ccp are effectivley bullying and killing off the caldari race. If you look at how much sp a caldari player needs to be even slightly effective in vagainst a 2 month old gallente, min or amar player its astounding. I think this thread is an absolute joke. If you want to buffer somehting deal with the caldari race sucking so bad that people want to quit the game.
[u][u][b][b]Its got to the point where im thinking of packing this in. I refuse to spend more money on a char that is bei -------------------------
(Join the Shadow) |
Luna Cii
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Posted - 2009.10.17 04:00:00 -
[1135]
Originally by: Deltaprimus Quote: Now a falcon cant even get the jame strength to perma jam a bs in one jammer.
Wat?
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Roland Thorne
Dark Sun Collective Kahora Catori
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Posted - 2009.10.17 04:57:00 -
[1136]
Originally by: Deltaprimus [u][u][b][b]Its got to the point where im thinking of packing this in. I refuse to spend more money on a char that is bei
Give it to me, seriously. I could use a good pve char.
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Captain Narmio
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.10.17 05:35:00 -
[1137]
Originally by: Deltaprimus Seriously i mean wtf?!
Drake: Used to be one of the toughest nuts in the game. Nearly uncrakable. 18months of being a drake pilot and i can now be solo'd. A concept that was unthinkable 18 months ago. Other races have been buffered so much that they can crack a drake solo. And if i wanted to make my drake un crackable i have to loose the point for more resists or shield. -1 caldari
You are a terrible, terrible troll.
Your serious actual legitimate point here is that it is now possible to kill your drake? Oh, what a hard, hard life it is.
Get out.
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Darcia Engineris
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Posted - 2009.10.17 07:08:00 -
[1138]
not at all i agree. But tTo go from un -crackable to being cracked easily is a bit of a shock.
caldari has nothing going for it anymore. that guy hit it on the head. all theyre good for is pve. yes ok the comment about the falcon was defo ott but still ecm is definitely still too weak. its the caldari's best point and ccp have picked it up and mashed it into the floor. and left them with the broken mess.
tell me one other race that has to cross train to pve because their home races ships suck so bad at it they die otherwise?
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Juliette DuBois
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Posted - 2009.10.17 08:24:00 -
[1139]
Edited by: Juliette DuBois on 17/10/2009 08:24:40 Don¦t complain about drake, it still has best combination of tank and gank even without that ridiculous regen tank. HAM drake has decent dps and HML is good for kiting long enough that you have upper hand on EHP race.
It¦s extremely hard to beat in 1vs1 by any other BC, and it¦s suitable for large gangs with shield logistics as well. Drake can also engage just about any target just fine in these gangs, anything from smallest tacklers all the way up to BS.
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Tokran Inami
Matari Exodus
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Posted - 2009.10.17 10:24:00 -
[1140]
Deltaprimus, i can only hope this was ment to be a joke!
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