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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Elaron
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.18 21:50:00 -
[1171]
Originally by: Roland Thorne No. I'm saying indirectly that guys who are trained for blasters would loooove to be able to use falloff on someone who is out of optimal. Projectiles already do that.
There is nothing at all that says that blasters have to be used within optimal. And, as Pattern has said, range is not what blaster users are complaining about.
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Roland Thorne
Dark Sun Collective Kahora Catori
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Posted - 2009.10.18 22:45:00 -
[1172]
Originally by: Elaron
Originally by: Roland Thorne No. I'm saying indirectly that guys who are trained for blasters would loooove to be able to use falloff on someone who is out of optimal. Projectiles already do that.
There is nothing at all that says that blasters have to be used within optimal. And, as Pattern has said, range is not what blaster users are complaining about.
Suppose its a case by case basis by pilot's preference, however you can't deny that blasters do spec in close-range damage, yet the utility of greater falloff would be useful even if the dps is ****ty.
Projectiles do not have the spec of close range damage, even though they do perform greater damage in optimal. Closing to that range is inadvisable in some cases though (staying out of web range/scram) especially with the slots most minmatar ships have. The only options I have then to still deliver dps is to use drones and falloff, and I'd rather keep the flexibility of falloff then trade it for a concrete hit/miss chance given with a defined optimal.
To answer your recommendation to fly amarr, maybe that works with other peeps, but not me. I'd rather work to have ccp correct the problems with minmatar.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.10.18 23:41:00 -
[1173]
Originally by: Kepakh Edited by: Kepakh on 18/10/2009 18:13:17
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
With 1400mm II's, max skills, and 3 gyros (as per normal sniper fit), you'll be waiting +/-16 seconds to "shot" again, an increase of +/-7 seconds, not 23 seconds.
As you don't seem to deal with facts, I suppose you can consider it irrelevent.
It is indeed irrelevant.
You still have to wait twice as long no matter what ship you fly or how it is fitted. 23s is base ROF of T2 1400mm to exlude effects of bonuses.
Don't post if you can't make or get the point.
Look at how silly you are. Pointing out a worse case scenario with numbers that will never, ever be the accurate in game play just to make your point sound plausible is pretty futile on this board.
I rather like the idea of a resurgence of the "Alpha Strike" strategies that used to be viable for the Matar. People will quickly figure out that (in this day and age of RR BS fleets) that they only need half as many minnie BS to attain a one salvo kill, negating the advantage of the RR gang. Granted, this tactic works best in large fleet scenario's, but it will be nice to have the tactical variety again.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Tyler Lowe
DROW Org Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2009.10.19 00:39:00 -
[1174]
Originally by: Caldor Mansi
Originally by: Tyler Lowe
You do realize that you cannot fire on a target that no longer exsists, right? The possibility of overkill was acknowledged. Point 5a is simply a misrepresentation of fact. It cannot occur.
5a situation occurs quite often. It is the situation when targets changes and/or die too fast.
Originally by: Caldor Mansi
Artillery:
5) You launch 2nd volley on secondary: a) secondary target is already gone
I have pulled the relevent quotes so that there can be no misunderstandings.
I am always willing to learn something new about Eve.
5a, as I read it, states that you have already fired, but you deal no damage, because the target was already dead when you hit the F buttons.
Explain, if you would please, how you go about activating a turret on a target that is no longer present.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2009.10.19 02:47:00 -
[1175]
Originally by: Caldor Mansi Your only complain here is that blasters are not lasers.
Not at all. My complaint is that lasers impinge too much upon the role of blasters. This can be fixed by either nerfing lasers or boosting blasters (I'd mention projectiles here but it seems the devs already know about these problems).
Note that since they're boosting projectiles, I'd argue that we should no longer ask for Laser nerfs, but focus on fixing the remaining issues with projectiles and hybrids. I'm really hoping for solutions that keep the game diverse (such as artillery vs beams now having a meaningful distinction).
Quote: Mega or Hype shines at their intended roles - close range battleships. There is no reason to make them superior in other fields when they already got one where they are good at.
The Mega does passably, but the Hype is pretty bad. The rep bonus is extremely weak when faced with modern warfare (hell historic warfare too), and the lack of a tracking bonus really really hurts it at its intended range. It somewhat offsets it with the ability to fit a second web, ECCM, or Sensor Booster.
Quote: No ship is good at everything.
No, but there are certain ships that can do far more than they really should be able to do.
Also, my post was merely classifying the Gallente whines I've seen. Overwhelmingly people want more damage up close or more range. Nobody that I've seen wants both.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
General Meridus
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.19 07:47:00 -
[1176]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
+75% as long. And the extra 7 seconds isn't as big a deal as your making it out to be.
Omg...you're either a troll or not very bright :-/
Fly safe.
Obviously haven't been in the game all that long.
How ya been Pattern? Been a while since ISS hasn't it.
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Caldor Mansi
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Posted - 2009.10.19 10:04:00 -
[1177]
Originally by: Tyler Lowe
I have pulled the relevant quotes so that there can be no misunderstandings.
I am always willing to learn something new about Eve.
5a, as I read it, states that you have already fired, but you deal no damage, because the target was already dead when you hit the F buttons.
Explain, if you would please, how you go about activating a turret on a target that is no longer present.
edit: spelling
I think you are nit-picking here a bit... The whole point is what happens when you are ready and supposed to fire at secondary target.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Not at all. My complaint is that lasers impinge too much upon the role of blasters. This can be fixed by either nerfing lasers or boosting blasters (I'd mention projectiles here but it seems the devs already know about these problems).
Note that since they're boosting projectiles, I'd argue that we should no longer ask for Laser nerfs, but focus on fixing the remaining issues with projectiles and hybrids. I'm really hoping for solutions that keep the game diverse (such as artillery vs beams now having a meaningful distinction).
Quote: Mega or Hype shines at their intended roles - close range battleships. There is no reason to make them superior in other fields when they already got one where they are good at.
The Mega does passably, but the Hype is pretty bad. The rep bonus is extremely weak when faced with modern warfare (hell historic warfare too), and the lack of a tracking bonus really really hurts it at its intended range. It somewhat offsets it with the ability to fit a second web, ECCM, or Sensor Booster.
Quote: No ship is good at everything.
No, but there are certain ships that can do far more than they really should be able to do.
Also, my post was merely classifying the Gallente whines I've seen. Overwhelmingly people want more damage up close or more range. Nobody that I've seen wants both.
-Liang
There is nothing to fix.
Blasters are superior at sub 10km. Projectiles are superior at 17-22km. Lasers are superior at +30km.
Hype is better tanking Mega similar as Abaddon is a Geddon with more HP. There is a reason why Hype is probably the best low sec BS out there. If you have issues with tracking, you are doing something very wrong, sorry.
It is a matter of playstyle. I would fly Mega any day because it is closer to my playstyle and I know I will own any laser boat at close range. With people asking for blaster boost it is the same - they fly mega but prefer laser performance hence asking changes that would make mega competitive with laser playstyle.
People whine all the time but that does not neccessarily mean there is something broken.
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Bobbechk
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.19 10:17:00 -
[1178]
Edited by: Bobbechk on 19/10/2009 10:17:13
Originally by: Caldor Mansi
There is nothing to fix.
Blasters are superior at sub 10km. Projectiles are superior at 17-22km. Lasers are superior at +30km.
how can you say projectiles are superior to lasers at 17-22km? they got worse dps and tracking...
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To mare
Amarr Advanced Technology
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Posted - 2009.10.19 10:23:00 -
[1179]
Originally by: Caldor Mansi
There is nothing to fix.
Blasters are superior at sub 10km. Projectiles are superior at 17-22km. Lasers are superior at +30km.
wrong an this is the main reason for projectiles whines
large blaster are superior to projectiles up to 24km laser are superior to projectiles anywhere
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Juliette DuBois
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Posted - 2009.10.19 10:32:00 -
[1180]
That exactly. Projectiles donŠt have superiority at any range. Against laser boats you have to go right next to them to have any chance at outtracking them and against blasters you have to wear them down sloooooooooooooooooooooowly outside disruptor ranges (and then you canŠt hold the tackle on them anyway). Outside 1vs1 it just doesnŠt work that well.
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Caldor Mansi
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Posted - 2009.10.19 10:56:00 -
[1181]
Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 19/10/2009 11:00:45
Originally by: Bobbechk
how can you say projectiles are superior to lasers at 17-22km? they got worse dps and tracking...
Originally by: To mare wrong an this is the main reason for projectiles whines
large blaster are superior to projectiles up to 24km laser are superior to projectiles anywhere
Projectiles with barrage track better than lasers with scorch.
But indeed there is a mistake on my side, sorry. When I think about projectiles, I think about them fitted on Maelstrom or maybe Tempest since those ships I consider 'working'.
Then there is a question if and how much a ship using the weaponry should be taken into consideration when balancing guns.
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To mare
Amarr Advanced Technology
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Posted - 2009.10.19 11:13:00 -
[1182]
Originally by: Caldor Mansi Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 19/10/2009 11:00:45
Originally by: Bobbechk
how can you say projectiles are superior to lasers at 17-22km? they got worse dps and tracking...
Originally by: To mare wrong an this is the main reason for projectiles whines
large blaster are superior to projectiles up to 24km laser are superior to projectiles anywhere
Projectiles with barrage track better than lasers with scorch.
But indeed there is a mistake on my side, sorry. When I think about projectiles, I think about them fitted on Maelstrom or maybe Tempest since those ships I consider 'working'.
Then there is a question if and how much a ship using the weaponry should be taken into consideration when balancing guns.
do not forget that laser with multifrequency track better than projectile with laser and with laser you can switch ammo with no time penality.
also calling maelstrom and tempest working is a bit of a joke. the only working minmatar BS is the phoon because it use torps + drones. the pest and the mael might work if projectile weaponry will be in line with other races weapons
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Caldor Mansi
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Posted - 2009.10.19 11:33:00 -
[1183]
Originally by: To mare
do not forget that laser with multifrequency track better than projectile with laser and with laser you can switch ammo with no time penality.
also calling maelstrom and tempest working is a bit of a joke. the only working minmatar BS is the phoon because it use torps + drones. the pest and the mael might work if projectile weaponry will be in line with other races weapons
Do you mind to share why is Maelstrom a joke according to you?
Correct, typhoon is not really a 'working' projectile boat as you said yourself.
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To mare
Amarr Advanced Technology
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Posted - 2009.10.19 11:56:00 -
[1184]
Originally by: Caldor Mansi Do you mind to share why is Maelstrom a joke according to you?
1st it have weak dps i have less paper dps than many others ships like armageddon abaddon raven megathron hyperion (heck it have even less dps than the tempest typhoon if fitted for gank) not to mention it lose a good chunk of its dps when the range increase. 2nd its slow and handle like a brick and this dont help. 3rd the active tank bonus limit the ship only to the active tank role, while a ship with a resist bonus like the rokh or the abaddon can have a insane passive tank and still tank the same with a active tank. also active tanking in modern warfare is less useful than passive tanking.
the role of a maelstrom is very limited if you have the skill for others ships
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.10.19 12:03:00 -
[1185]
Originally by: General Meridus
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
+75% as long. And the extra 7 seconds isn't as big a deal as your making it out to be.
Omg...you're either a troll or not very bright :-/
Fly safe.
Obviously haven't been in the game all that long.
How ya been Pattern? Been a while since ISS hasn't it.
It has been a heck of a long time, approaching 5 years in Eve atm and about 3 since ISS. I'm pretty good though this thread is a mess however. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
Caldor Mansi
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Posted - 2009.10.19 12:30:00 -
[1186]
Originally by: To mare
Originally by: Caldor Mansi Do you mind to share why is Maelstrom a joke according to you?
1st it have weak dps i have less paper dps than many others ships like armageddon abaddon raven megathron hyperion (heck it have even less dps than the tempest typhoon if fitted for gank) not to mention it lose a good chunk of its dps when the range increase. 2nd its slow and handle like a brick and this dont help. 3rd the active tank bonus limit the ship only to the active tank role, while a ship with a resist bonus like the rokh or the abaddon can have a insane passive tank and still tank the same with a active tank. also active tanking in modern warfare is less useful than passive tanking.
the role of a maelstrom is very limited if you have the skill for others ships
1) This all depends on range. 2) Agreed. We still bear the consequencies of ignorant changes to speeds last year. 3) Depends. Active tank is nice for low sec or small skirmishes.
Every ship has some role and natural disadvantage. Amarr BS can't really use MWD and are cap unstable. Yes, they can shoot far but if something is out of their reach or they simply need to move elsewhere, it is a pain.
My standard Meal has this numbers:
741 DPS with barrage, no drones 55/64/63/69 resists on shield 440 DPS tank on uniform damage and 69K EHP
Cap last over 10 minutes on boosters with MWD off and web+disruptor running. Also, shield buffer Mael ain't that bad even though you will need to trade webber for buffer. But you still keep great DPS and mobility.
Surely it is different from Abaddon but it has great advantages over other ships in certain situations like they do have over Mael under different circumstances.
If one play style is favoured, it does not mean we should make all ships capable the same play style equaly. The proper 'fix' is to make other play styles viable. There is why I don't like much comparing to other weapon platforms and ships. Most of the arguments and suggested changes are based on: Ship A can do it better therefore boost for ship B is in place. Instead of approach: Ship B has issues to fill the role and therefore X,Y,Z is needs to be done to help with the issue.
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.10.19 12:59:00 -
[1187]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 19/10/2009 13:03:10
Originally by: Caldor Mansi 440 DPS tank on uniform damage and 69K EHP
Compared to my Hyperion fit, with 800 dps and a 900dps tank?
And even then, the Hyperion is only worth while in a tiny number of rapidly diminishing situations. The only reason why the Maelstrom would be used instead is if the pilot was using faction mods, crystals and boosters against a small gang, and had backup, and even then, one curse out ruin your day.
It gets a lot worse when you compare the Tempest with the Typhoon, Maelstrom or just any armour tanking turreted platform out there as the Tempest just doesn't perform any role well in comparison with it's peers. So it's not just a case of making the weapons better or boosting an aspect or niche of the game. Your really going to have to figure out what the tempest should do different to the Phoon and Maelstrom, and design slots and bonuses around it.
____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
mothyowns
teeny tiny space pirates
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Posted - 2009.10.19 13:10:00 -
[1188]
Originally by: Caldor Mansi
My standard Meal has this numbers:
741 DPS with barrage, no drones 55/64/63/69 resists on shield 440 DPS tank on uniform damage and 69K EHP
Cap last over 10 minutes on boosters with MWD off and web+disruptor running. Also, shield buffer Mael ain't that bad even though you will need to trade webber for buffer. But you still keep great DPS and mobility.
I use it without web and mwd, and just slowboat away. I get a 814 tank on uniform damage, which is quite nice with the RF EMP damage increase that we're getting.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/ |
Caldor Mansi
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Posted - 2009.10.19 13:25:00 -
[1189]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Compared to my Hyperion fit, with 800 dps
Except your will deal about 0 DPS at Maelstrom most beneficial range.
Originally by: mothyowns
I use it without web and mwd, and just slowboat away. I get a 814 tank on uniform damage, which is quite nice with the RF EMP damage increase that we're getting.
Projectile damage is tightly bound with range and having no way to control the range is not the best way how to apply your 'fragile' DPS, imo.
New EMP will still deal less damage on armor tankers than Barrage...
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.10.19 13:37:00 -
[1190]
Originally by: Caldor Mansi
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Compared to my Hyperion fit, with 800 dps
Except your will deal about 0 DPS at Maelstrom most beneficial range.
What, fall off range?
I think it was proven somewhere that your better off using 1200mm's Artillery on a Maelstrom at any range beyond 30km when you take into account tracking and hit quality.
Then you compare that to a Hyperion with 350mm's, or a Rokh with Neutron blasters, this fall off argument gets even more laughable. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
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Caldor Mansi
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Posted - 2009.10.19 14:03:00 -
[1191]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc What, fall off range?
Even with Ions, which you won't be able to fit a full rack with dual reppers, your raw damage will be significantly lower than Mael's and due fall-off reduced to about 40%.
So yes, in a matter of fact you will still deal some negligable damage but not relevant enough.
Mael on the other hand, will be capable do deal about 75% of his nominal and much higher damage.
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.10.19 14:19:00 -
[1192]
Originally by: Caldor Mansi
Originally by: Pattern Clarc What, fall off range?
Even with Ions, which you won't be able to fit a full rack with dual reppers, your raw damage will be significantly lower than Mael's and due fall-off reduced to about 40%.
So yes, in a matter of fact you will still deal some negligable damage but not relevant enough.
Mael on the other hand, will be capable do deal about 75% of his nominal and much higher damage.
I like how you totally ignored the rest of the post. And also, in before pulse/tachyon laser beam's.
____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
Caldor Mansi
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Posted - 2009.10.19 14:23:00 -
[1193]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc I like how you totally ignored the rest of the post. And also, in before pulse/tachyon laser beam's.
Yes, because the rest of your comment is so stupid and out of topic, I decided to ignore it...
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.10.19 15:29:00 -
[1194]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 19/10/2009 15:29:50 For everyone else.
At 36km, in Caldor Mansi maelstrom setup, you'll be doing just over 300 dps at 30km with true fall off taken into account. With 1200mm's using RF EMP at 30km, Just under 600 DPS. A similar figure with 350mm's and CN Antimatter tanking about as much on the Hyperion. More than enough to make up for the tracking short fall it might have against cruisers at that range, and if you expect to fight at closer ranges, then blasters are better.
____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
Able Pat
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Posted - 2009.10.19 15:31:00 -
[1195]
I have to say I like EMP ammo the way it is.
I think it is more useful having max damage against shields like this because where we can neut other ships to stop repping, passive shield tanks can only be countered with a bit more firepower. Better for solo work in my opinon.
We've also got the t2 ammo if we need to do more damage against armour tanks.
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Tyler Lowe
DROW Org Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2009.10.19 15:35:00 -
[1196]
Originally by: Caldor Mansi
Originally by: Tyler Lowe
I have pulled the relevant quotes so that there can be no misunderstandings.
I am always willing to learn something new about Eve.
5a, as I read it, states that you have already fired, but you deal no damage, because the target was already dead when you hit the F buttons.
Explain, if you would please, how you go about activating a turret on a target that is no longer present.
edit: spelling
I think you are nit-picking here a bit... The whole point is what happens when you are ready and supposed to fire at secondary target.
No sir. I am pointing out that your complaint with artillery as it stands is that you will need to lock a third target.
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Jack Nuddels
Congregatio Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.10.19 16:23:00 -
[1197]
didnt read all the posts...
but can the developer team look into the faction XL ammo and reintroduce the republic XL mumpeln^^
thankfull yours Jack
ps: if the faction XL ammo is still IG and in LP stores available i did post nothing
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Caldor Mansi
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Posted - 2009.10.19 16:55:00 -
[1198]
Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 19/10/2009 16:56:52
Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 19/10/2009 15:29:50 For everyone else.
At 36km, in Caldor Mansi maelstrom setup, you'll be doing just over 300 dps at 30km with true fall off taken into account. With 1200mm's using RF EMP at 30km, Just under 600 DPS. A similar figure with 350mm's and CN Antimatter tanking about as much on the Hyperion. More than enough to make up for the tracking short fall it might have against cruisers at that range, and if you expect to fight at closer ranges, then blasters are better.
You're quite stupid, really. That won you a nice place in my ignore list.
Oh, and btw good luck at hitting moving cruisers with EMP in your arties especialy while still being in point range...
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Xellss
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Posted - 2009.10.19 17:18:00 -
[1199]
i Only have one problem with this change, and thats the fact you edditing the damage at the ammo end, and not the gun end.
Hurricane - 800Dps + change = 880Dps
Tempest - 660Dps + change = 700Dps
now i agree, projectile turrets need love, but perhaps more scaled up love to our BS :)
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.10.19 17:19:00 -
[1200]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 19/10/2009 17:19:51
Originally by: Caldor Mansi
You're quite stupid, really. That won you a nice place in my ignore list.
Oh, and btw good luck at hitting moving cruisers with EMP in your arties especialy while still being in point range...
Beyond 800mm optimal + falloff range, you'll be better off with 1200mm's even against cruisers - fact. Closer in and your better off in a megathron or Rokh with Neutrons.
This chart doesn't even take into account fall off hit quality degradation.
Now please go back to what ever cave you crawled out of. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
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