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McRoll
Minmatar Heatseekers
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Posted - 2009.09.28 17:55:00 -
[1]
When the devs say that fixing the Tempest is a "delicate" process I believe it has to do with the fact that this ship cannot be really distinquished from a Maelstrom. Actually the Tempest is supposed to be the fleet sniper battleship, or at least its mostly used that way. On the other hand, the Maelstrom can be used as a sniper as well because of its slot distribution (8 turret slots and the ability to fit lots of damage mods and tracking computers+ sensor boosters. It also has enough grid to fit 8x 1400 mm arty). Also its the heaviest and least maneuverable ship with no spare utility slots to use for close range combat and little ability to fit tackle.
So my idea is a redesign of the Maelstrom to the fleet sniper ship which would take away this role from the Tempest. Switch the shield boost bonus on the Maelstrom to a +5% shield resistance bonus. This would allow it to fit a shield buffer tank together with the modules needed for sniping. Also, increase its locking range a bit. It would bring an addition to shield transfer ships, so we will have 2 remote repair sniping BS and 2 BS that would benefit from shield transfer (Rokh and Maelstrom). Diversity is good and it would fit in line perfectly.
With this out of the way, the Tempest can become the damage dealer of the 3 Minmatar BS and would finally have a role. Maelstrom as the sniper, Typhoon as the close range utility (RR, neut, whatever) and the Tempest the damage dealer. What do you think?
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McRoll
Minmatar Heatseekers
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Posted - 2009.09.28 19:37:00 -
[2]
No opinions at all? bump to first page again
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Rhohan
Minmatar Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2009.09.28 19:54:00 -
[3]
The only changes I see would be to projectiles in general, and the sh rep bonus on the Maelstrom.
The fact that the Tempest is a better sniper just means it is cheaper to replace your sniper ships.
The Maelstrom is fine as an AC boat. Changing the bonus to something other than an active tank bonus would be good though. A falloff bonus might be nice.
People keep wanting to make the Mael a sniper but don't seem to have a clue about the economics of it. If it is cheaper for your pilots to field such ships, they will be able to field more over a period of time.
I wouldn't agree with making the Mael the "best" minnie sniper boat, eventhough, some of its attributes seem backwards.
It seems that the Devs always get to the minne stats last, and want to leave early, so they just throw some stats in there and call it flexibility.
I think its a cop-out.
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McRoll
Minmatar Heatseekers
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Posted - 2009.09.28 20:23:00 -
[4]
Edited by: McRoll on 28/09/2009 20:26:19 Well speaking about costs, if you can afford a Tempest regularly as a sniper, it wont hurt you that much to spend those 15 or 20 million more on the Mael... besides, the Caldaris snipe with their Rokh, its a Tier 3 BS as well.
It's just that the Tempest doesnt have the slot layout to be a good sniper. It has 5/6 mid/low slots, you cant put a adequate tank on it, as it stands it has 6 lows to fit its tank and the gyros and tracking enhancers. The mids are already full with sensor boosters and tracking comps. Then you have the 2 high slots as "utility" and a sniper doesnt benefit of them at all (except you can put RR in it)
The Maelstrom as a shield tanker can have some shield buffer while fielding 3x gyros and 2x tracking enhancers. I can't help it but i see the Mael as the sniper ship of the Minmatar, its slowness, 8 guns and slot layout just cry for it. The Tempest should be the AC close range boat because of slot layout, agility and damage bonuses imo.
I thought quite a while about the Tempest and i really dont know how to change it so it can be the sniper except a complete redesign of the ship and i doubt that will happen. An additional slot here or a turret slot there wont really change the problem.
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Rhohan
Minmatar Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2009.09.28 20:32:00 -
[5]
You can nearly replace each Maelstrom with two Tempests after you figure insurance and fitting.
Having double the ships at nearly the same price means a lot, regardless of how rich you are.
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McRoll
Minmatar Heatseekers
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Posted - 2009.09.28 20:37:00 -
[6]
Hmm, but can the cost really be the only excuse for this piece of junk the Tempest is right now? The devs could adjust the minerals needed for production and tone it down a bit (and take the Tempests cost up for compensation)
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Kail Storm
Caldari The Unforgiving.
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Posted - 2009.09.28 21:24:00 -
[7]
A 5%+ resist bonus would make the mael not a sniper but more like the Abby a beast with hi resists...The rokh has way lower tank than the Mael and so it needs the 5% but the mael with it would be a Abby with ACS`s since it has 8 gus also. It would need range bonus to make it a comprable sniper so you would have to lose somethings to gain that.
But they do need Huge rr fitting bonus`s as a bandaid since ccp wont jus tfix shield rr. If you run, You`ll only die tired :) |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.09.28 21:36:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Rhohan You can nearly replace each Maelstrom with two Tempests after you figure insurance and fitting.
Having double the ships at nearly the same price means a lot, regardless of how rich you are.
Wrong:
The only thing that changes is the insurance value. Lets consider the following data:
1) Tempest Price: around 80M ISK, Tempest insurance: 30M ISK (roughly), insurance payout: 100M ISK, Fittings: 30M ISK, Rigs (30-50M ISK)
Everytime you die in a Tempest you pay: 80(new ship)+30(new insurance)+30(fittings)+40(if you use rigs) = 180M ISK (with rigs) or 140M(without rigs)
You receive: 100M ISK
so in the end you spend: 80M ISK(if you use rigs) or 40M (if you don't)
2) Maelstrom Price: around 120M ISK, Insurance: 45M ISK, Insurance payout: 150M ISK, Fittings: 30M ISK, Rigs (30-50M ISK)
Everytime you die in a Maelstrom you pay: 120(new ship) + 45M (new insurance)+30(fittigns)+40(if you use rigs)
That makes for: 235M ISK(with rigs) or 195M ISK (without rigs)
You receive: 150M ISK
So in the end you spend: 85M ISK (with rigs) or 45M ISK(without rigs)
The figures are approximations, but they are within a few percent of the average values, rest assured.
What we conclude from this is that you pay exactly the same thing when you lose a Tempest or a Maelstrom.
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"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
McRoll
Minmatar Heatseekers
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Posted - 2009.09.28 22:11:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kail Storm A 5%+ resist bonus would make the mael not a sniper but more like the Abby a beast with hi resists...The rokh has way lower tank than the Mael and so it needs the 5% but the mael with it would be a Abby with ACS`s since it has 8 gus also. It would need range bonus to make it a comprable sniper so you would have to lose somethings to gain that.
But they do need Huge rr fitting bonus`s as a bandaid since ccp wont jus tfix shield rr.
Well as a sniper you have to fit sensor boosters and tracking computers which go in mid's. This would leave the Maelstrom with only 2 or 3 slots for large shield extenders and invufields coupled with rigs. So it won't be overpowered at all. If you use the ship in close range you usually fit things like propulsion mod, cap booster, disruptor etc. What would change is buffer shield tank instead of active shield tank... The Abaddon works like that- it can't fit 3 heatsinks and an uber tank at the same time but it can use its 4 mids for tackle, ewar or whatever. The Maelstrom could fit full gank but had to sacrifice tank for those modules, so you can't have it all.
Range can be changed by adjusting the locking range and changes to sniper ammunition to ensure that it reaches the ranges of other sniper BS. If the DPS turns out to be too high, the rof bonus can be changed to 5% damage bonus, though the alpha might be too high then. Somebody would need to run the maths but overall it would work better then now i believe.
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Rhohan
Minmatar Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2009.09.28 22:54:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
What we conclude from this is that you pay exactly the same thing when you lose a Tempest or a Maelstrom.
That's not correct, although the numbers have changed quite a bit since I first ran them.
With the fits I use on a sniper BS, The orginal costs for a Maelstrom is around 38% more than a Tempest. The replacement cost is about 28% more.
While the degree of the difference has changed since I first ran the numbers, the result is the same.
It does cost more to field Maelstroms, than Tempests. And Tempest generally gives you better Alpa, DPS and Range than a Maelstrom. That's weapon range, not targeting range.
IMO, projecties need to be looked at more than the ships themselves. Although, some of them do need some tweaks.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.09.28 23:18:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Rhohan That's not correct, although the numbers have changed quite a bit since I first ran them.
With the fits I use on a sniper BS, The orginal costs for a Maelstrom is around 38% more than a Tempest. The replacement cost is about 28% more.
While the degree of the difference has changed since I first ran the numbers, the result is the same.
It does cost more to field Maelstroms, than Tempests. And Tempest generally gives you better Alpa, DPS and Range than a Maelstrom. That's weapon range, not targeting range.
IMO, projecties need to be looked at more than the ships themselves. Although, some of them do need some tweaks.
You are wrong in both assumptions.
1) Original cost is irrelevant. Replacement costs is EXACTLY THE SAME, not 28% more. Actually it is even a bit less, as the MAelstrom will be shield tanked, thus using T2 extenders instead of Rolled Tungsten plates, and will use cheaper field extenders intead of more expensive trimarks. Look at the numbers I posted, they are accurate, and prove beyond doubt what I said.
2) The Maelstrom have MORE dps, MORE alpha, MORE EHP, WAY more PG and cpu, and the same exact range of a Tempest. I can`t begin to understand where did you take the opposite conclusions from... |
Aalu Aullard
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Posted - 2009.09.29 18:45:00 -
[12]
I havent read the whole projectile boost threat. But we first need to see the real projectile changes before reworking the Matari BS roles.
But what i do hope is that Tempest stays the fleet sniper like it is today.
Maelstrom should be the main Matari mission runner. Dunno how the artillery change changes its ability to run missions effectively. If CCP boosts autocannons too then maybe Maelstrom could do well with its damage bonus switched into +10% falloff bonus.
Minmatar needs a battleship where lower skilled players can comfortably run lvl4 with named fittings.
Compared to other races: Amarr has lasers -> good range advantage Gallente has Domi -> drones have no range issues Caldari -> Raven
And what Minmatar has?
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