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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.09.30 17:41:00 -
[1]
I know we've been over this a thousand times by now, but in light of the new T2 insurance changes on SISI at the moment it got me thinking again about just how many ISK sinks/faucets there are in the game.
I know I'll miss a bunch, but just off the top of my head:
Sinks: Skillbooks Insurance that expires and doesn't pay out Nanite paste Clone fees Transaction taxes/contract fees LP offers that require ISK Upcoming NPC corp tax (yay!)
Faucets: Rat bounties Mission rewards Insurance contracts that pay out
Please point out any other ISK sinks and faucets that I haven't caught.
That being said, does the output of insurance payouts keep up with the intake of expired insurance contracts? Is it a zero sum situation? Should we depend on expired insurance contracts to consume ISK from the game? How reliable is that? Would it be better for the game economically to remove all insurance (with respect to overall in-game ISK and inflation)?
What about the current price caps/limits on T1 ships and materials? Insurance puts a hard limit on capping minimum ship prices and the minerals used to build them. Will the same thing happen to T2 production if T2 becomes basically fully insurable? Do we want this?
What about T3 ships? Will insurance stop at T2, or will it proliferate to T3 in the future? What kind of precedent does this set? What does this say about CCP's overall view of the game and the direction it wants to take it? Are we looking at a future where loss is almost meaningless? Where "go ahead and shoot, it's INSURED" is the standard reply to any ransom demand?
I'd like to hear some input on all the possible ISK sinks/faucets and what could be done to improve the ratio of ISK creation and ISK velocity in the economy, as well as where we should be going insurance wise as related to PVP and ship loss. Personally I think that Eve players have more ISK than ever before and in combination with higher average SP all the 'exotic' ships like HACs and Recons are so commonplace as to be mundane and boring.
-- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.30 17:45:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Kerfira on 30/09/2009 17:45:40 NPC sold goods are all ISK sinks (POS stuff, trade goods etc.), and NPC bought goods are all ISK faucets.
People buy some 'Long-Limb Roes' at low price, sell it at high, and you got an increase in the ISK balance of the game.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Caelum Mortuos
Gallente Zero G Research and Development
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Posted - 2009.09.30 17:47:00 -
[3]
T2 Insurance
Seriously, reduce cost of T2 sure. It's probably a bit too pricey right now but for gods sake don't make it insurable. This game needs less isk faucets, not more
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.09.30 17:48:00 -
[4]
sinks: -custom medals -corp office rent -tons of small fees and taxes related to trading and using NPC facilities/services.
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.30 17:50:00 -
[5]
Right, I actually had to log on SISI and verify that this wasn't a really elaborate troll by SHC.
I understand why people are happy and excited for themselves, but anyone who thinks this is somehow good for the game must be the biggest moron. Insurance is probably the second biggest contributor to isk inflation after NPC bounties, and adding more safety nets to a game already watered down by them is incomprehensible.
I'm having a hard time believing how they actually ended up boosting insurance at a time when capital overhaul almost guaranteed a nerf of some kind.
You also missed blueprints, pos and agent services.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
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Posted - 2009.09.30 17:52:00 -
[6]
It can't be a straight factor of ISK into game = ISK out of game. The game cannot grow otherwise.
Here's what I mean. If for every ISK that came into the game from a faucet, when through the market and went out in an ISK sink, we would have just about the same amount of ISK in the game at any one time as any other. However, with the player base growing, that would eventually mean the same amount of ISK to spread out among more and more players.
Anyways, that being said, you forgot some more sinks:
Players that quit. Players that get banned. ISK from ISK farmers and players that buy from them being removed by GM. Broker Fees Repair of ships (like nanite paste, but repairing in station) POS components
And the NPC buy and sell orders have already been pointed out.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.30 17:52:00 -
[7]
POS and POS mods are currently a vast ISK sink, probably the largest of all. Not to mention POS fuel.
After Dominion, we're going to need some seriously huge ISK sinks to replace that.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.30 17:54:00 -
[8]
You're an economics genius too? Is there nothing you can't do?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.09.30 17:57:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 30/09/2009 17:59:13
Originally by: Malcanis POS and POS mods are currently a vast ISK sink, probably the largest of all. Not to mention POS fuel.
After Dominion, we're going to need some seriously huge ISK sinks to replace that.
I was thinking about this earlier. What if POSes were no longer available from NPCs and were produced from BPOs/BPCs just like anything else?
The sovereignty fees that alliances will pay to Concord or w/e to keep control of their space will most likely replace the ISK sink that POSes are currently. Yes/no? -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Pennwisedom
Gallente Sublime.
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Posted - 2009.09.30 18:00:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Malcanis POS and POS mods are currently a vast ISK sink, probably the largest of all. Not to mention POS fuel.
After Dominion, we're going to need some seriously huge ISK sinks to replace that.
Hmm, it's almost as if one of the first things they said was a CONCORD ISK-fee for Sov. Hmmm, I really wonder.
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Sgt Napalm
SiN. Corp Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.09.30 18:01:00 -
[11]
I think this is a great idea.
If the ships become more affordable to use, more people will choose to fly them. It lowers the fee into serious PvP for those on limited time. Currently I see a bunch of butthurt rich people, or those who have many hours to dedicate to PvE'ing to afford their PvP habit.
Logging onto EvE for week so you can rat in an belt to make 200 mil to afford a command ship is crap. Obviously there has to be risk vrs reward, but it sure as heck ain't there. Remember, we are talking about a ship that can be insured roughly to 45%, big whoop.
More time PvPing - Less time PvEing
Good in my book as a casual player.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.30 18:03:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Caelum Mortuos This game needs less isk faucets, not more
Are you sure about this? Is inflation really an issue in Eve? I'm pretty sure CCP has said in the past it isn't. Has this changed?
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Serge Bastana
Gallente GWA Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.30 18:07:00 -
[13]
Doesn't the T2 insurance increase only double the current payout? That would mean that there are still some relatively large losses for some of those T2 ships. Now could it not be that CCP are encouraging the small roaming gangs that seem to be a part of the new sovereignty system.
If an increase in T2 insurance makes pilots more willing to risk and lose those ships, they still lose money, true it is less of a loss per ship, but if they risk more of those ships, resulting in more losses, then could that not provide an even bigger isk sink than now with pilots not caring as much about the individual losses and therefore being more willing to lose more in the long run.
There are still questions about the production costs at the moment too so not sure if we can get a complete picture.
------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag.
Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited! |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.09.30 18:07:00 -
[14]
The clusless OP left out a HUGE sink - insurance premiums.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.30 18:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Malcanis POS and POS mods are currently a vast ISK sink, probably the largest of all. Not to mention POS fuel.
After Dominion, we're going to need some seriously huge ISK sinks to replace that.
They may seem like the biggest, but unfortunately, there is also a second hand resale market for POS. A used POS is as good as a new one, but none of that money is being removed from the game, it just goes to another player.
It requires a bunch of huge wars and political turmoil in 0.0 to bring POS destruction rates to levels where people are buying new towers in quantity again. Dominion renders such destruction almost irrelevant on a strategic level, so yeah, its going to do the opposite of what we need.
Atm, skillbooks are the biggest isk sink but its only a significant part of your income for the first few weeks. And if you keep playing, you might only invest a few hundred million (or a billion) into your character but make far more than that.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.30 18:08:00 -
[16]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: Caelum Mortuos This game needs less isk faucets, not more
Are you sure about this? Is inflation really an issue in Eve? I'm pretty sure CCP has said in the past it isn't. Has this changed?
You are correct, there is actually minor deflation in Eve.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.30 18:17:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ghoest The clusless OP left out a HUGE sink - insurance premiums.
Actually, he didn't.
Originally by: An Anarchyyt You are correct, there is actually minor deflation in Eve.
Price deflation is not equivalent to isk deflation, which is the only form of deflation proven so far. It just means there was a shift in demand/supply, which is common after every expansion.
Past QEN showed that isk entering the economy outstrips the amount leaving by something bordering 100%. The recent QEN also shows average wealth/incomes rising with character age. The only real barrier to making ten times the amount of money you lose is experience, which newer players lack, and not all of that money lost is actual isk sunk out of the economy.
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Babel
Boom and Bust Economics Ltd. N0thing To See Here
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Posted - 2009.09.30 18:28:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dretzle Omega It can't be a straight factor of ISK into game = ISK out of game. The game cannot grow otherwise.
Here's what I mean. If for every ISK that came into the game from a faucet, when through the market and went out in an ISK sink, we would have just about the same amount of ISK in the game at any one time as any other. However, with the player base growing, that would eventually mean the same amount of ISK to spread out among more and more players.
Errr ..... No ..... Think about that one again :) . "Out of the good of evil born, Came Uriel's voice of cherub scorn" |
el caido
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.09.30 19:08:00 -
[19]
Nix the NPC insurance system entirely, tbqfh.
Ugh, I'm responding in a Bellum thread, someone kill me.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.09.30 19:25:00 -
[20]
Have you looked at the numbers and theory in them, Bellum? I see that CCP are looking into the possibility of T2 prices skyrocketing in price because of moon minerals vanishing and the new mechanics may not be able to keep up (like rofls alchemy) Sisi doesn't have full T2 insurance, but more like 1/3 or 1/2 insurance payouts which is not threadnaught worthy. For instance, if the new zealot post dominion is 150m and I get back 50m from platinum insurance I don't think that is a major change at all.
But if CCP ever does give out 100% insurance for T2 items, yeah that would be very stupid of them.
Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
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Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar Pragmatics
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Posted - 2009.09.30 19:27:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus ...the new T2 insurance changes on SISI...
Er, and the new T2 build cost changes on Sisi. You have looked at the BP requirements for T2 ships, haven't you? Haven't you?
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.30 19:28:00 -
[22]
I have a crazy and radical idea. It's pretty out there so bare with me.
How about, if... IF... a big *IF*... Eve is having some kind of inflationary crisis, as is being pointed out here, and I'm sure you're all right because you know, I mean it's you, and you always know what's best and right for the game, we let CCP and its economist figure out the best course of action in curbing this game-breaking crisis.
I know, I know. Crazy.
Nevermind... Carry on. "EVE IS DYING!!1!" "DEVS R DUMB!!1" "I KNOW THEY DONT"
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Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.30 19:47:00 -
[23]
What *are* the T2 insurance changes? -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To |
Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar Pragmatics
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Posted - 2009.09.30 19:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Curzon Dax What *are* the T2 insurance changes?
Increases: for example, Paladin 304 million, Absolution 114 million are figures I've seen.
However, there are also changes in T2 BP component requirements. Minerals seem to have stayed the same but components have changed. At a rough glance it looks like components made of expensive moongoo have gone down, those of cheap moongoo have gone up. This will, of course, affect moongoo prices so it's difficult to guess the effect on T2 ship prices.
TL;DR: CCP Chronotis has said that insurance prices have changed as a result of T2 build costs and that it all still has to be balanced.
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Apoctasy
Silver Snake Enterprise Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.30 20:06:00 -
[25]
once dominion comes along, all the isk required to hold sov.
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2009.09.30 21:04:00 -
[26]
Not mentioned yet, BPO purchase is a sink.
The Real Space Initiative - V6 (Forum Link)
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Zarstrax
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Posted - 2009.09.30 21:15:00 -
[27]
Aren't modules/ships that get destroyed an ISK sink?
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Ruby Khann
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Posted - 2009.09.30 21:23:00 -
[28]
CCP made a second post in that thread, saying that the final changes will only be a few % different than current insurance rates.
As usual, Bellum ends up looking like a stupid whiner.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.09.30 21:41:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Vaal Erit Have you looked at the numbers and theory in them, Bellum? I see that CCP are looking into the possibility of T2 prices skyrocketing in price because of moon minerals vanishing and the new mechanics may not be able to keep up (like rofls alchemy) Sisi doesn't have full T2 insurance, but more like 1/3 or 1/2 insurance payouts which is not threadnaught worthy. For instance, if the new zealot post dominion is 150m and I get back 50m from platinum insurance I don't think that is a major change at all.
But if CCP ever does give out 100% insurance for T2 items, yeah that would be very stupid of them.
Everyone is thinking in terms of existing prices.
To the people referring to the changed build requirements on SISI for T2 ships: yes, I'm well aware of the new build requirements.
What I'm saying is this: what if CCP's goal is a 100% insurable T2 ship, with the new SISI payouts the target prices for the ships in question, and they're going to modify the moon mineral output (the absolute output of the whole game) to adjust supply upwards to the point that the prices come down to where the insurance figures are near 100% per ship?
Right now we're focused on how the existing structure works, with only a very few moons providing materials in relatively limited quantities. With the new sov framework and the concept of improving systems, players might be able to dynamically change which moons produce which minerals, and indeed, some moons might produce multiple types of minerals, enough to generate much more supply than we see today.
So much in fact that we end up seeing T2 insurance as a hard cap to T2 prices. Look at the prices. Look at where they figure in on the scale of existing insurance relative to other ships and their classes. Look at where they've positioned Marauders, HACs, Recons, and Command Ships.
To those saying I've missed some sinks/faucets: duh, I was expecting I would. Why are you acting superior? I'll edit my OP to ensure a more complete list.
DC: lol @ 'elaborate SHC troll'. I told Siigari last night in local, he had a meltdown in local and made his post (I guess, I didn't read it until this morning). Still pretty funny. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.30 21:41:00 -
[30]
Isk sinks:
Alliance fees Corporation creation fee Station lab/maniufacture costs Station ship/modules repair
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