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Veldya
Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.10.03 16:07:00 -
[1]
From what we know, changes brought by Dominion will have a pretty big impact on most alliances in the near future. One of the biggest is going to be income generation, a big part of the income generation will be the tax of members and the more active use and improvement of systems within a region.
Do you think it will have a big impact on your alliance?
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Chirinako
Caldari H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.10.03 16:15:00 -
[2]
I don't think this will make as big a difference as some people are making out.
Sov will no longer be linked to towers = You will no longer need lots of towers in station systems to hold sov Average alliance will have 10 sov holding towers in a station system as a ballpark figure = 10 towers costs 2b per month to fuel = 2b per station system extra for alliances to spend elsewhere, such as paying for the upkeep of their gates or system upgrades etc.
In the case of -A- and Goons for example, we have like 30 stations each. That's 60b (roughly) per month that we won't have to use for tower upkeep anymore, that can be directed towards the new isk sinks instead.
So in our case, no I can't see this making a HUGE impact.
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SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies Atropos.
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Posted - 2009.10.03 16:19:00 -
[3]
First of all, your post is about half a year late, not informative, not constructive.. hell, it doesn't contain much content at all.
Now unless I missed something, the 'exact' workings of whatever new system-sov/exploiting system has not been announced yet (unless it's on sisi, which I am too lazy to get onto).
situation 1: it ISN'T on sisi/anywhere to be read (from credible CCP sources), in which case your entire post and question becomes irrelevant. situation 2: I am indeed lazy and know nothing and it IS in fact already on sisi (or atleast a preliminary version of it), in which case your entire post and question becomes irrelevant aswell. Why you ask? Because (most) people have brains. If you have seen the new system on sisi it isn't hard to reason logically as to what the effects of said system might be.
But, not to be a total douche, I'll try to surpress my anti-noob snobbyness and awnser your question:
Yes, it will have a big impact on space holding alliances and alliances hoping to be able to hold space. CCP has made it very clear on ANY OCCASION THEY COULD that this will be a TOTAL REMAKE of the sov-system and system resource exploitation. Hell the moon (jew)gold changes ALONE are gonna throw the big powerblock alliances out of whack when they suddenly have to start mining and ratting to pay for their "we didn't want those dreads/carriers/fleets/battleships/motherships/titans anyway" campaigns. __________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
Raiiden
Gallente BAD WOLF INC. Maru Ka'ge
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Posted - 2009.10.03 16:20:00 -
[4]
dominion will own.
NEWBREED CREW STAND UP
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Veldya
Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.10.03 16:29:00 -
[5]
Originally by: SFX Bladerunner First of all, your post is about half a year late, not informative, not constructive.. hell, it doesn't contain much content at all.
Well, there has been blogs and discussion about the direction recently, you don't need to know the exact mechanics to clue in to what the intent is and how it will likely change.
It is more of a philosophical level rather than specific "what are you going to do?". For example, some alliances rely a lot on renters, don't have a significant participation outside of putting fleets together to destroy POS X or defend POS Y, some are narrowly confined to a single time zone, some control huge wads of territory for their playerbase.
Also, most nullsec alliances have been very pro-pvp oriented. While there is scope for some pve most are built around a constant military focus, some might feel the next untapped gold mine will be empire noob management and funneling them into second tier corps with moderately tax rates.
I'm just curious if people have given it much thought as it is not that far away.
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steveid
Amarr Helljumpers Alliance 12345
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Posted - 2009.10.03 16:44:00 -
[6]
Edited by: steveid on 03/10/2009 16:45:28 The trouble with CCP is they have two mutually exclusive ideals. Firstly they want more people in 0.0. Secondly they want to reduce or at least keep stable blob warfare.
The way they seem to be going about this is incomprehensible.
To make a systems worth dependent upon the people in it actively encourages lots of people in a system and so a large response to a threat provoking a larger amount of threat needed ad infinitum.
This will further degrade solo and small gang pvp as in a dense system / constellation / region full of aligned people your never going to get an even fight and are pretty much required to gank.
They are forgetting that the only way they will encourage this element of the game and therefore an end to blob warfare is with making 0.0 less densely populated and so in relation to their aim of populating 0.0 more expanding the number of 0.0 systems markedly.
0.0 improvement needs to be based around effort lest systems have 40+ people in a station left logged in to boost numbers and that effort should be rewarding for small groups as well as big alliances.
Where is the fledgling spirit that would make a 40 man corp strike out into the void to set up shop in a backwater system. Its just not possible any more. If you read this then you have to lick my balls. |
Silverace
Caldari StarLight Inc. Prismatic Refraction
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Posted - 2009.10.03 16:57:00 -
[7]
Originally by: steveid Edited by: steveid on 03/10/2009 16:45:28 The trouble with CCP is they have two mutually exclusive ideals. Firstly they want more people in 0.0. Secondly they want to reduce or at least keep stable blob warfare.
The way they seem to be going about this is incomprehensible.
To make a systems worth dependent upon the people in it actively encourages lots of people in a system and so a large response to a threat provoking a larger amount of threat needed ad infinitum.
This will further degrade solo and small gang pvp as in a dense system / constellation / region full of aligned people your never going to get an even fight and are pretty much required to gank.
They are forgetting that the only way they will encourage this element of the game and therefore an end to blob warfare is with making 0.0 less densely populated and so in relation to their aim of populating 0.0 more expanding the number of 0.0 systems markedly.
0.0 improvement needs to be based around effort lest systems have 40+ people in a station left logged in to boost numbers and that effort should be rewarding for small groups as well as big alliances.
Where is the fledgling spirit that would make a 40 man corp strike out into the void to set up shop in a backwater system. Its just not possible any more.
Where the hell do you roam in 0.0? Always when I roam in 0.0, be it solo or in a small gang, I pass through endless amounts of constellations completely empty of players.
If Dominion can make constellations in 0.0 that today are worth much less than other constellations worth living in, you will see people move there.
And even if the number of people heading to 0.0 grows significantly with dominion, they will likely be more spread out, which makes solo/small gang warfare much more viable.
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Veldya
Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.10.03 17:10:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Chirinako
Sov will no longer be linked to towers = You will no longer need lots of towers in station systems to hold sov Average alliance will have 10 sov holding towers in a station system as a ballpark figure = 10 towers costs 2b per month to fuel = 2b per station system extra for alliances to spend elsewhere, such as paying for the upkeep of their gates or system upgrades etc.
In the case of -A- and Goons for example, we have like 30 stations each. That's 60b (roughly) per month that we won't have to use for tower upkeep anymore, that can be directed towards the new isk sinks instead.
While you wont have to spam POS in various systems just to gain sov I do believe POS will still play an important role, there will be much less POS expenditure but my guess the moon resources will be spread a lot more. You wont need massive POS networks but they will still need a reasonable number of them.
CCP Greyscale mentioned in his blog comments that the moon resource value and density is one of the two biggest problems, that and doomdays. From that my guess is rather than a few high end moons in a region there will be a lot more with lower yields. We wont know the specifics for a while, but the intention is quite clear.
Then it will just depend how much and what impact the new gate rent/tax cost will be. Their intent seems to be to want nullsec alliances to demand more high-sec players, many nullsec alliances don't actively recruit. The only way they will achieve that is to have alliances have a greater need for the PvE oriented Empire people who could bridge the gap in terms of past and futue net income.
Quote:
edit: ofc R64 income is being nerfed but we don't know exactly how that's going to realisticaly effect alliance income so until we can factor that into the equation it's really speculation. The above figures however, are near to the truth, tower fuel costs alot when you're fueling 10 towers in 30 different systems and that ISK sink disappearing will certainly help with the reduction in income from Dysprosium
I think the present problem is the high-ends are insanely valuable then the low subsidies the cost of a POS network by a bit, I think you will need a lot more towers in more systems for less money but you wont have the additional cost of do-nothing POS just for Sov.
I don't see how they will attract more empire people into nullsec unless that demand comes from within. If alliances like -AAA- don't need them then overall there wont be much change.
My guess is ccp wants there to be that internal demand. If ccp asked you what changes you would make to increase demand for pve oriented players, what would you change? There aren't a lot of variables.
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Veldya
Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.10.03 17:22:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Silverace
Originally by: steveid Edited by: steveid on 03/10/2009 16:45:28 The trouble with CCP is they have two mutually exclusive ideals. Firstly they want more people in 0.0. Secondly they want to reduce or at least keep stable blob warfare.
The way they seem to be going about this is incomprehensible.
To make a systems worth dependent upon the people in it actively encourages lots of people in a system and so a large response to a threat provoking a larger amount of threat needed ad infinitum.
This will further degrade solo and small gang pvp as in a dense system / constellation / region full of aligned people your never going to get an even fight and are pretty much required to gank.
They are forgetting that the only way they will encourage this element of the game and therefore an end to blob warfare is with making 0.0 less densely populated and so in relation to their aim of populating 0.0 more expanding the number of 0.0 systems markedly.
0.0 improvement needs to be based around effort lest systems have 40+ people in a station left logged in to boost numbers and that effort should be rewarding for small groups as well as big alliances.
Where is the fledgling spirit that would make a 40 man corp strike out into the void to set up shop in a backwater system. Its just not possible any more.
Where the hell do you roam in 0.0? Always when I roam in 0.0, be it solo or in a small gang, I pass through endless amounts of constellations completely empty of players.
If Dominion can make constellations in 0.0 that today are worth much less than other constellations worth living in, you will see people move there.
And even if the number of people heading to 0.0 grows significantly with dominion, they will likely be more spread out, which makes solo/small gang warfare much more viable.
I think some areas of PvE space is very congested, regions closer to empire can have smaller pirate elements, but when you travel through some place like Deklein you can see the space tumbleweed blowing past the gates.
CCP mentioned the Dominion wont affect npc space when it first comes out, so I assume the parts of Delve and Fountain not conquerable will be similarly untouched, along with the pure npc regions.
Up north i used to get a lot of small scale pvp and 1v1 fights, I think that is probably more to do with NC noot booting out the freeloaders out of Venal, but it helped to ensure the carebears weren't too carebearish.
I think if it is more feasible for smaller entities to be able to control a constellation and you have a lot more of them, especially in the crappy regions that border empire it should create a gold mine of activity for pirates in the low-sec regions between the two.
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Banlish
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.03 19:19:00 -
[10]
When the first outposts were introduced there was a shift in EVE. Many little alliances popped up or split off from others that were controlling the 3 or more NPC conquerable stations that CCP had staged in regions. This started a massive land rush and the sheer number of refineries that popped up in less then 6 months was amazing.
Then people started to attack each other, 1 v 1 became 1 vrs 2, then 3 vrs 2, then 3 vrs 5, and onwards and upwards. (the south east showed this in stupid succession) which basically gave birth to the coalitions of today. Dominion might allow more 'smaller' nations to exist and more 'brush fire wars' to take place. Which I think many of us considered one of the golden ages of EVE. (when 4 dreads and 6 carriers was a 'massive' cap fleet)
With CCP allowing alliances to have a traceable way to 'rent' out space to other alliances I think we'll see more regions become like Providence. (this is not an insult) Providence has something like 43 or so outposts? And 6 to 8 different alliances working in close proximity to each other. It's a highly active region of space, and friendlies and hostiles go through the area in great numbers daily giving it a unique experience that I think the rest of EVE will benefit from in a fashion. Side note: With Providence having 42 stations in a 100 or so system region they will be the best poised to turn the ENTIRE REGION into a very, very rich 0.0 region when Dominion hits. Every single constellation in Providence has at least 1 outpost, most having 3 or more. The providence holders have worked hard at their space and I can't wait to see how they 'upgrade it' when the expansion hits.
As for other alliances and impacts, all in all I think it'll be positive and just another thing we have to adapt to (outposts, POS's, Carrier nerf, JF's, JB's, etc etc,) all were said they would 'horribly break the game' and while some had unintended consequences others made the game more fun to play. Dominion might be 'fixing' some of these, and replacing others. But I believe people will adapt and get more people into 0.0 (where they should after months or years in empire) the NPC corp tax is another step in that direction and a good one. 0.0 is vast and should be heavily populated. Not just 10 systems per region that are good, a handful of moons and the rest sits fallow not mined, ratted or used for years on end.
I think some alliances will be annoyed that have multiple regions, others will have to trim their holdings, rent it out or give it away. All of which will lead to new 'waves' of immigrants (dwarf fortress in EVE, yay.) But I believe it'll bring more people out, more death and destruction will ensue and that I think EVERYONE will agree will be a good thing for the game that has gotten quite stagnant the last year or so.
Atlas Head Diplomat CEO - Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Carebear Pvper?!?!? |
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Gort
Minmatar Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.10.03 19:33:00 -
[11]
Originally by: steveid Edited by: steveid on 03/10/2009 16:45:28 The trouble with CCP is they have two mutually exclusive ideals. Firstly they want more people in 0.0. Secondly they want to reduce or at least keep stable blob warfare.
The way they seem to be going about this is incomprehensible.
To make a systems worth dependent upon the people in it actively encourages lots of people in a system and so a large response to a threat provoking a larger amount of threat needed ad infinitum.
This will further degrade solo and small gang pvp as in a dense system / constellation / region full of aligned people your never going to get an even fight and are pretty much required to gank.
They are forgetting that the only way they will encourage this element of the game and therefore an end to blob warfare is with making 0.0 less densely populated and so in relation to their aim of populating 0.0 more expanding the number of 0.0 systems markedly.
0.0 improvement needs to be based around effort lest systems have 40+ people in a station left logged in to boost numbers and that effort should be rewarding for small groups as well as big alliances.
Where is the fledgling spirit that would make a 40 man corp strike out into the void to set up shop in a backwater system. Its just not possible any more.
This seems right on.
Even though there are empty spaces in 0.0, go there and it won't be long until a humongous horde shows up.
Recently, an alliance I'm not going to name here hot dropped 8 or 9 carriers on a couple of bc's. The hp buff has left this game more of a blob-a-thon than ever.
G -- When in doubt, empty the magazine. |
Ethan Hunte
Gallente Ninjas With Frikkin StarShips
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Posted - 2009.10.04 01:13:00 -
[12]
do you people or even ccp feel that dominion will erase the current trillions currently lining alliance leader pockets of the big alliances?
nothing will change in terms of who holds sov except that smaller entities especially those operating from npc stations like in delve or fountain will be able to be slightly more of an annoyance than before.
maybe three years down the road when those funds have run dry, if they are spending over budget per month, something might change.
Ninja is recruiting. |
LTD THOR
Caldari Liga Freier Terraner Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.10.04 03:58:00 -
[13]
Hmmn..
eve.com forums will teach us i guess.
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JonnyKay
Gallente Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.10.04 10:52:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Banlish
essay
It's a sad day when I agree with an Atlas dude =( _________________________________________________
"Being Minmatar is like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair firing an Uzi" |
steveid
Amarr Helljumpers Alliance 12345
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Posted - 2009.10.04 11:29:00 -
[15]
tbh what he said made a lot of sense.
I suppose the trick in all of this is to remove the high end income makers such as 10/10 complex's (done) and high end moons and remove the goals that would encourage 15k players to curbstomp someone.
I did find the bit about CVA interesting though. I wonder if that means we will see the first major play for CVA space (although AAA gave it a go a while back) in a few years? If you read this then you have to lick my balls. |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.10.04 12:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ethan Hunte do you people or even ccp feel that dominion will erase the current trillions currently lining alliance leader pockets of the big alliances?
Those little cap skirmishes add up, you know...
"A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking real money"
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KIAEddZ
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.04 14:57:00 -
[17]
Moon goo prices are falling through the floor, and come dominion demand for Dysp and Prom will be around 30% (according to the BPOs/Cs on Sisi at the moment)
3 weeks ago a Dysp moon AND a Prom moon were worth 15ish billion per month each, and in virtually all cases is the staple isk income for all Large allainces.
After Dominion rental Agreements, space improving and Mining/Ratting tax on members will be key.
0.0 will need to be flooded carebears to cretae the income needed to keep large ssections of space, space you own will need to be used, this is CCPs stated goals, and with charges for Station maintenance and sov etc levelled aginst alliances, only the people prepped for it and thinking ahead for it will find the transition smooth..
Just for note, I see a lot of spare/empty space being up for grabs come November, and lets hope a sht load of targets for roaming gangs.
TLDR: Dominions focus on space use not reliance on moon goo will be an absolutely massive impact on the big boys.
KIA EVE Home
KIA in game Public Channel "KIA"
KIA are Currently recruiting active PvP minded players. Contact SentryRaven |
Faife
Minmatar Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.10.04 15:14:00 -
[18]
posting in a "i agree with eddz" moment.
the big point of this is that as it becomes more possible to survive in 0.0 with only 100 people and maybe 2 non-station systems held total, people might start bringing small entities to live out there
currently, unless you got at least 1000 people and a full const it's pretty pointless to try and take a chunk of space -- Check out my EVE cartoons - most recent: #17 Goomba needs a new job |
Hugh Hefner
Caldari Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.05 04:02:00 -
[19]
Originally by: KIAEddZ
Moon goo prices are falling through the floor, and come dominion demand for Dysp and Prom will be around 30%
Only the high ends, the other complex reactions is going through the roof instead.
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Gunship
Amarr Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2009.10.05 18:53:00 -
[20]
They could get rid of all the capital ships in the game for what I care, give everyone a new BS a day and lets fight.
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Xeris 7
Caldari I.M.M Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.10.05 19:47:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Gunship They could get rid of all the capital ships in the game for what I care, give everyone a new BS a day and lets fight.
Amen to that brother.
I got ganked / podded in .4 and all I got was this lousey clone T-shirt!!!
"...one mans junk is another mans minerals..." |
Wu Phat
Caldari The Necromongers Clandestine Encounters
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Posted - 2009.10.05 23:30:00 -
[22]
Just wonder if the allainces will play and just do like the newest dev blog say's. Like huddle up in a Super System with like upgrades that give your system and extra 35 + belts & rasing the true sec to stupid lvl's.
But you know what this still does not Help the Drone Regions. Unless you can put a upgrade to drop serpentis or blood raider spawns ya know. Hell , why not you get drone plex's everywhere else but you get no pirate plex's in the drone areas.
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Shoikan
Minmatar Fleet of the Damned
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Posted - 2009.10.06 08:31:00 -
[23]
Originally by: KIAEddZ 0.0 will need to be flooded carebears to cretae the income needed to keep large ssections of space, space you own will need to be used, this is CCPs stated goals, and with charges for Station maintenance and sov etc levelled aginst alliances, only the people prepped for it and thinking ahead for it will find the transition smooth..
Just bringing in carebears won't cut it. A carebear (especially the 'until-recently-empire-carebear-I-think-I-can-handle-any-rat-but-I-hadn't-figured-on-that-red/neut' type) will give the more experienced and PVP oriented roamers plenty of targets. This will mean that if you bring in carebears, you also will have to start up protection for them, training programs, whatever. And yeah, I think a few larger alliances (no clue which ones will be hit worst though) will trip due to this.
Another thing to keep in mind is simply this: with more smaller groups in 0.0, in your (insert large alliance name here) space/region, you will have more politics to worry about. Politics have been more deadly to alliances than large battles, I think. Alliances with few large corps tend to be more resilient to internal strife than alliances with many smaller corps. Think dictatorship versus board-run alliances...
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DeltaTeam
Amarr GK inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.06 08:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Raiiden dominion will own.
NEWBREED CREW STAND UP
Your alliance will still be horrible, dont get your hopes up
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Noemie
Caldari Obsidian Inc. KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.06 13:21:00 -
[25]
IF I am allowed to speculate (and since I am not a dev or Ouver then thats all it is).... I would say that
The sov changes will put everyone in a blind panic (remainsant of Bob trying to protect Delve when the alliance was dis-banded) as the sov MIGHT immediately drop because towers would be no longer be the sov holders.. and what fun THAT would be
Alliances might be wise to line up industrial-type ppl that have the skills and bpos to successfully work a system. This will require increased person management skills. If this type of person to you is a "carebear" then look for "carebears" with teeth.
As to the OPS question, impact on my alliance?? ....no comment |
Max00000
Gallente Therapy.
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Posted - 2009.10.06 13:24:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Max00000 on 06/10/2009 13:25:01 Even though the moons are being toned down as motivation EvE will always have something to fight over... Certain areas of space will always be worth more than others and the main objective as to what is the most profitable asset will be the new focus of the masses. Stations? bottlenecks?
The thing that I`m really wondering about is with such major changes to the Sov mechanics will CCP just push the button and OMG nobody has sov anymore! or will sov holders be given a chance to keep some of what they own? |
Fred0
Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.06 13:37:00 -
[27]
It will probably impact alot on us (RZR). In certain regards dominion seems to be a straight aim at alliances like RZR who's prided ourselves on being as little in the space we own as possible. I think this is the wrong way to go but it's a challenge we are up for.
--- "Cutting Edge 4 Life" |
Fat Ducker
Amarr Lucky Hydra Corp
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Posted - 2009.10.06 13:56:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Fred0 It will probably impact alot on us (RZR). In certain regards dominion seems to be a straight aim at alliances like RZR who's prided ourselves on being as little in the space we own as possible. I think this is the wrong way to go but it's a challenge we are up for.
More Nyx's in belts the solution? X-Trading has the CSAA's running flat out in preparation I hope.
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KIAEddZ
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.06 15:29:00 -
[29]
Edited by: KIAEddZ on 06/10/2009 15:31:29 CCP have made a solid statement that they WILL change the way space us held, maintained and used.
By limiting moon goo income to a very small amount in comparison to the last 12 months and levelling charges ( which i'm sure will be adjusted as time goes on) for holding sov and stations they will be forcing large alliances that hold a lot of space which is unused to rethink their Infrastrcture and the way their alliances live. Large holdings of space will need to be highly populated and taxed, as the majority of an Alliances income will come directly from rent/tax.
Things are going to change dramatically, maybe not so much at first as the big boys have 100s of billions in reserve, but that won't last and the CCP engineered noose of productivity vs quantity will tighten. Can't wait. :)
KIA EVE Home
KIA in game Public Channel "KIA"
KIA are Currently recruiting active PvP minded players. Contact SentryRaven |
Roger Midnight
Caldari Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.06 16:14:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Roger Midnight on 06/10/2009 16:14:22 Getting carebears out to nullsec would only require ship replacement programs that pay out nearly instantly regardless of being a trial member of the corporation.
A lot of carebears are "nullsec curious"(TM), and making it so they lose ZERO money as they get up to speed (or flunk themselves out) is probably all that is needed.
Well, that and perhaps limiting the CTAs.
If you give a carebear 20 to 50 t1 frigs and mods to lose learning PvP and make clear you'll replace any non-rigged industrials, Retrievers (because they're cheap) or Drakes they lose doing PvE, you're likely to create a loyal and productive member.
Carebears mind the IMAGINED risk and the CTA demands the most. Just give them time to see the REAL risks while their wallet goes unharmed.
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