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Jonas Altol
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2012.06.08 14:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
This point after much reading is still unclear to me. If I want to travel through a lowsec or nullsec system to get to a particular destination, how safe am I. All I am doing is jumping through (i.e., not visiting any asteroid belts, not putzing around looking for trouble, no autopilot - just getting in and out as quickly as possible enroute elsewhere).
To try to resolve this question I have looked into the components of traveling into and then out of a system:
- You jump in and are cloaked (i.e., invulnerable for about 60 seconds)
- You align to the gate that you will be using to jump out
- You warp to that gate
- You decelerate out of warp
- You jump to your next system
Now it would seem to me that during point 1 above, you have no worries. At point 2, as you are aligning to warp, you have a window of opportunity for someone to lock your ship and use a warp jammer (disrupter or scrambler) on you. However, can they do this fast enough? If you have pretty fast alignment, because your have trained up your Evasive Maneuvering skill and your ship itself is a frigate or say destroyer it will align and warp relatively quickly. Am I wrong in this?
For step 3 you are in warp and presumably untouchable.
For step 4, there is again a window of opportunity as you are decelerating out of warp before you jump. Can others strike you in this window, it seems longer than the window in step 2, but I am not sure if someone can preven you from jumping with a warp jammer. So, it seems to me that you might take a little damage but will still manage to jump out of the system before you are destroyed, unless there is an entire fleet shooting at you.
Now, I'm still a relative newb, so please explain to me if my logic above if flawed. |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1757
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Posted - 2012.06.08 14:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
In lowsec, 2 is the only time you're at all vulnerable, that is when the tacklers of any gate-camp you go through will try to lock you. A frigate or decently-quick aligning cruiser won't have much issue just warping away. It's not 100% perfect, now and then there'll be a really good camp that'll get lucky, but I feel no more in danger flying through lowsec gate-to-gate in a frig than I do in highsec. In step 4, you're not vulnerable because you're still untargetable while your speed is showing "warping". If you spam "Jump" as you finish decelerating, there's nothing they can do. And, no, points don't stop you from jumping.
Nullsec complicates things a bit, due to bubbles. They can make 4/5 take minutes instead of seconds (by dropping you out of warp minutes away from jumping (rather than seconds). This can be mostly alleviated by being smart about bouncing off of celestials. If you know how to bounce properly, then null is almost as safe as lowsec in a frigate. (bouncing is when you go to a planet or safespot which isn't in line with the target gate and anything else and then warp to the gate so that any drag bubbles don't catch you).
Of course, it gets exponentially less safe as you fly bigger ships with slower align time.
My advice: try flying around in lowsec for a while in a T1 frig. Worst case, you lose it. Best case, you learn lowsec isn't as scary as people make it out to be, so long as you don't dawdle around and wait to be caught.
Best of luck. |
Jonas Altol
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2012.06.08 14:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
You've confirmed my suspicions about lowsec at least - It's not as scarry a place to jump through as people make it out to be!
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Major Trant
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
58
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Posted - 2012.06.08 14:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lowsec is pretty safe in a small ship just travelling from gate to gate, because few people will bother to engage you on a gate due to the fact that to attack you there will start the gate guns firing at them. To catch a small ship requires something fast locking, but something fast locking usually doesn't have the tank to withstand the gate guns.
But there are of course exceptions. It is possible to catch a small ship during phase 2. and with remote sensor boosters a larger tankier ship can do it. In addition it is possible to catch someone at both phase 2 and 5 using a smart bombing battleship which doesn't have to lock you before causing damage. Rancer is known for smart bombing gate camps, but that camp is not as permanent as some scare mongers will have you believe. I've passed through Rancer several times and I've yet to see it (famous last words). Your friend is the in game map, check ship and pod kills in the last hour and last 24 hours when planning your route.
Null is completely different due to bubbles. If you jump into a bubble and are not in a covops ship your chance of burning out of the bubble and getting to warp are slim. If you are fitted with a non covert cloak your chances are much improved but still quite high that you will be uncloaked, killed and podded. Your best bet in those circumstances is to MWD back to the gate and jump back.
At the other end of warp during phase 4, you have another danger from bubbles. They can pull you out of warp early or if placed behind the gate, will actually suck you right past the gate into them. In both cases you will most likely end up 70 or 80 Kms from the gate, too close to warp but too far to burn with one of more HACs in close proximity ready to take you down. Your only hope in these cases is a cloak, again the covops ship has a good chance of getting out, with any sort of other cloak giving a small chance (due to the fact that they gimp your burn speed). Your best chance of avoiding getting caught this way is to warp to a celestral first, not directly from your in gate. The bubble has to be inline with your warp path to catch you. As you travel through null, get in the habit of setting up purch bookmarks 200Km above or below each gate you pass through. Warping to them will avoid the bubbles. Do not think that warping to 100 from the gate will save you. If you land on grid with an inline bubble, it will suck you into it.
To summerise, travel through low is pretty safe in a small ship, but occassionally you will be unluckly. Travelling through null is much more dangerous, perhaps 30% of the time you will be caught, unless you're in a covops ship. |
Jonas Altol
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2012.06.08 15:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
Wow guys thanks for all the great advice! It is wonderful to have so many supportive people going beyond the question that I asked and offering real world advice on how to travel more safely. |
Arch Stanton's Neighbour
Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
17
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Posted - 2012.06.08 15:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Instalocking, remote sensor boosted hictors.
No amount of warp stabs will save you. |
highonpop
Void.Tech Fatal Ascension
95
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Posted - 2012.06.08 17:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
Navigating lowsec in a dessy or frigate is pretty easy. as long as you dont auto-pilot or go AFK on a gate, the only way you will die is it you get smart bombed. I landed on a SB gate camp once. They see you in local and immediately start smart bombing.
Nullsec you just have to watch out for bubbles!!
Read First Dev Post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
My post was probably full of typos. I don;t care... |
Jonas Altol
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2012.06.08 18:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
But is it cost effective to smart bomb frigates/destroyers and can my shielding "stomach" it?
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Lost Greybeard
Fenrir's Dogs of War Union 0f Revolution
76
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Posted - 2012.06.08 18:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
Nullsec - no. You are not safe "just passing through", primarily due to bubbles, without having previously laid a course along your path with off-gate bookmarks, etc.
Lowsec - yes. Qualified in that this "yes" is a "you're as safe as you are passing through high-sec" not "nothing can ever touch you". The effort required to catch and 'splode someone warping to 0 in low-sec is about equivalent to the effort required to suicide people on gates in high-- people won't find it worthwhile + possible unless you're hauling something valuable ain a slow-aligning ship. |
Baneken
Fistful of Finns The Polaris Syndicate
131
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Posted - 2012.06.08 19:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Other thing about bubbles if it's a large or medium you will in most cases retain your covert ops cloak when you land on it, small bubble how ever is so small that it decloaks and keeps your BR from being cloaked long enough to ensure that you will die before you burn out of the bubble. |
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Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
127
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Posted - 2012.06.08 19:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
In low you live and die with #2.
Your goal is to align and warp as fast as possible. With little ships, you have little to worry about. With bigger ones you need to guard against two things.
Stabs in the lows can save you from a scramble...up to a point. A tank can help you survive an alpha salvo....maybe. (It makes enough of a difference that it is worth fitting)
Lastly you have your biggest weakness: the bump. Unless you have a MWD and they are all painfully slow, if someone bumps you, you are generally toast. No amount of STABs will prevent bumping, and a thick tank will get burned down since the pirates don't have to kill you in just one shot. Your only defense against a bump is just having a fast enough align/warp to escape before the bumper can ram you.
In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse. |
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
315
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Posted - 2012.06.08 20:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Remember Murphy's Law : The one time you take a shortcut trough lowsec in a frigate there will be 4 Abaddons smartbombing at the gate. Lost my first set of +4 implants (ca. 125M isk) like that. FIRE FRIENDSHIP TORPEDOES ! Louis's epic skill guide v1.1 |
Zoyx Ruhroh
A-OK Logistics and Fabrication StoneGuard Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.06.08 22:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
There should be a race of the noobs through null sec. Rookie ships only with a set jump order, lol. |
Adaam Ikalaa
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.06.09 06:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Good information!! :) |
Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
110
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Posted - 2012.06.09 07:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
Note that you can always use your d-scan to check if someone is at the destination gate. If no celestial or other warpable entity is within the 14 AU of that gate to make this d-scan, you can also empty your cap so that you do not warp entirely but stop somewhere in deep space, hopefully within scanning range. You do this by initiating warp then cancelling it. Forum-unbanned since 2011.10.20. |
Iria Ahrens
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
47
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Posted - 2012.06.09 10:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ok, now here's a related question. Spamming gates with trash to autodecloak people coming through. One person said that has been nerfed or is only doable in null. Is this considered an exploit or valid tactic? Anyone have a firm answer? I know people used to surround gates with corpses so there was no way to get through cloaked. There are two kinds of player. -áThe kind that adapts to the game, and the kind that expect the game to adapt to them. -áDo don't a number 2 on EvE. -áThank you. |
Mallak Azaria
189
|
Posted - 2012.06.09 10:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jonas Altol wrote:
- You jump in and are cloaked (i.e., invulnerable for about 60 seconds)
False. You can be decloaked during this time. |
Mallak Azaria
189
|
Posted - 2012.06.09 10:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
Iria Ahrens wrote:Ok, now here's a related question. Spamming gates with trash to autodecloak people coming through. One person said that has been nerfed or is only doable in null. Is this considered an exploit or valid tactic? Anyone have a firm answer? I know people used to surround gates with corpses so there was no way to get through cloaked.
AFAIK it's only an exploit when used to created vast ammounts of lag. |
Pak Narhoo
Knights of Kador
553
|
Posted - 2012.06.09 13:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Iria Ahrens wrote:Ok, now here's a related question. Spamming gates with trash to autodecloak people coming through. One person said that has been nerfed or is only doable in null. Is this considered an exploit or valid tactic? Anyone have a firm answer? I know people used to surround gates with corpses so there was no way to get through cloaked. AFAIK it's only an exploit when used to created vast ammounts of lag.
Yup. I saw a very effective, non lag producing 'gate-trash-decloaking' setup a few weeks ago and some people petitioned it and it came back as 'nothing wrong with it, it's ok'.
To the OP there are a few other things you may want to do before taking a trip down,
- Check on Dotlan how volatile the systems are you going to pass through (or find a way around). - And check in game the star map.
Click on the star map tab, click on statistics, and click on the following options one at a time:
- average pilots in the space in the last 30 minutes - escape pods destroyed in the last hour - jumps in the last hour - number of pilots currently docked and active - ships destroyed in the last hour
This usually will give you a good indication of how much trouble may be on your road.
Hi, I'm CCP Arrow, I screwed up the.. ummm... |
Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery
1302
|
Posted - 2012.06.09 19:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Jonas Altol wrote:
- You jump in and are cloaked (i.e., invulnerable for about 60 seconds)
False. You can be decloaked during this time. No, you can't.
Your gate cloak is immune to everything, which includes any means of decloaking you and AOE damage from smartbombs/bombs.
E: Lowsec is mostly safe in a small fast ship for the reasons given above. However, if you're asking because you've noticed there's a shortcut to get from highsec A to highsec B then you'll be passing through any one of several well known chokepoint systems. These will have a gatecamp on them setup to catch anything, so they are not advised. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
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Baneken
Fistful of Finns Ewoks
132
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Posted - 2012.06.10 07:44:00 -
[21] - Quote
Frankly any short cut through null/low sec given to you by auto pilot is usually camped in one form or another.
Also smart bombs are mainly a caldari space thing, no idea why but I've never seen a one out side caldari space. |
Xi 'xar
Mise en Abyme
27
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Posted - 2012.06.11 08:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
There are a couple tips on my blog (see my signature) for going through lowsec.
Something that hasn't been mentioned (I don't think) is local knowledge - the more you travel through certain areas of lowsec, the more you will be able to spot gatecamps in advance and not simply jump into one or warp ontop of a smartbombing one.
Get to know the locals. http://reduplication.wordpress.com/category/explore-low-sec/ http://reduplication.wordpress.com/category/live-low-sec/ http://mrsnypes.blogspot.com/2010/07/burnt-lands.html
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Bossy Lady
Aliastra Gallente Federation
57
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Posted - 2012.06.11 09:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
Baneken wrote:Frankly any short cut through null/low sec given to you by auto pilot is usually camped in one form or another. Also smart bombs are mainly a caldari space thing, no idea why but I've never seen a one out side caldari space.
I lost a +5 set along with a full set of +5% hardwirings to one in Amarr lo-sec
What maeks it worse is that I had a ping spot on the gate but I was in a hurry to get back home before DT so I just warped straight to the outgate... right into a smartbombing Megathron. Pop went 1.5 bill worth of implants.
Luckily this was in the days before pod killmails showed implants.
Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M. |
Ji'kahr
1st Praetorian Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.06.11 15:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
Jonas Altol wrote:This point after much reading is still unclear to me. If I want to travel through a lowsec or nullsec system to get to a particular destination, how safe am I. All I am doing is jumping through (i.e., not visiting any asteroid belts, not putzing around looking for trouble, no autopilot - just getting in and out as quickly as possible enroute elsewhere). To try to resolve this question I have looked into the components of traveling into and then out of a system:
- You jump in and are cloaked (i.e., invulnerable for about 60 seconds)
- You align to the gate that you will be using to jump out
- You warp to that gate
- You decelerate out of warp
- You jump to your next system
Now it would seem to me that during point 1 above, you have no worries. At point 2, as you are aligning to warp, you have a window of opportunity for someone to lock your ship and use a warp jammer (disrupter or scrambler) on you. However, can they do this fast enough? If you have pretty fast alignment, because your have trained up your Evasive Maneuvering skill and your ship itself is a frigate or say destroyer it will align and warp relatively quickly. Am I wrong in this? For step 3 you are in warp and presumably untouchable. For step 4, there is again a window of opportunity as you are decelerating out of warp before you jump. Can others strike you in this window, it seems longer than the window in step 2, but I am not sure if someone can preven you from jumping with a warp jammer. So, it seems to me that you might take a little damage but will still manage to jump out of the system before you are destroyed, unless there is an entire fleet shooting at you. Now, I'm still a relative newb, so please explain to me if my logic above if flawed.
If you fly in a fast ship with a fast align time, like an Executioner with inertia stabilizers in the low slots, you should probably be too fast for most people to catch. Shuttles are okay too. Your escape pod has an almost instant align time, so if you just want to fly through low-sec to have a look at it, flying through in your pod is one option.
Also, unless you are in Faction war there isn't much reason to shoot at you anyways in low-sec.
There are times when choke points have their gates camped. In some cases the gate campers use a boosted interceptor which will pretty much capture pretty much anything while the fleet-mates kill it. The Kouromonen gate in Amarr-Minmatar low-sec faction war is such a place.
I was caught in a Kourmonen gate camp once, and it was like hitting a brick wall. My ship was instantly stopped, shield, armor, and hull were removed like the peel off like a banana, then the same thing happened to my pod, and I woke up in my clone.
When you live in low-sec or Null-sec, you have intel channels of your friends to tell you what is going on. "Is the route to your destination clear, or are there enemies?" That way, you can avoid certain systems. Checking the map for 'ships destroyed in the last hour'' helps too.
EVE gives you three alts on each account. Some people create an alt, and with no skills or training put them in a shuttle and use them as a scout for low sec and null sec. Shuttles don't cost very much, they are small and fast and hard to catch, and an alt with low skill points gets free clones, so why not try this if you want to check out low sec and null sec?
As far as null-sec goes, Providence is the most 'newbie safe'. The Curatores Veritatis Alliance (CVA) practices 'Not Red Don't Shoot', (NRDS) which means we don't shoot at anyone that isn't listed as an enemy (bad or terrible standings) to us.
Other places and alliances in null-sec are usually 'Not Blue, Shoot it., (NBSI) which means they will try to shoot anyone who enters their space that they don't recognize as friends (good or excellent standings). |
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