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Sig Sour	Posted - 2009.10.07 17:27:00 - [1] This is a topic that has started to concern me, and I am wondering how the rest of the Eve community feels about it. Wormhole space is supposed to be dangerous. It is 0.0 secure space. However when you look at it from the perspective of a POS, there is no safer place in this game than a class 1 or class 2 wormhole. In high sec, a corp can have war declared on them and a blob of battleships could in theory take out a large tower. In low and null sec there are dreadnoughts. In class 1 and 2 wormholes... battle cruisers. Yes that's right, try siege a large pos with a fleet of battle cruisers? I know you are more intelligent than that. For a second lets pretend you are not more intelligent than that, and lets speculate on what it would actually take to drop one of these pos's in "unprotected" space. From my experience, I have taken out a medium tower with about 20-25 battleships in fleet. I do not know the exacts, but lets say a large is twice that, so in order to take out a pos in the same time you would need 40-50 BS to take one out. Now convert that into battle cruisers - BC on average is about 1/2 - 1/3 the tank and damage of a BS, lets roll with 1/3. If it is going to take 120-150 people in battle cruisers to reinforce a large tower, and lets say the tower has 2.5 days of stront in it. Well you want to finish what you started right? You could leave a prob in system and cross your fingers that you get a wormhole into that system from a place you can access at the right time, but the only sure shot way of killing that pos is to keep everyone there. 120 people * 2.5 days = 300 days of game time 150 people * 2.5 days = 375 days of game time Congrats, killing a large tower in a low class w-space system is about the largest investment you can make in this game. When game design doesn't even follow video game logic, it comes off to me as an exploit. What is your take on it?
Kaar Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2009.10.07 17:34:00 - [2] really, does anyone care? ---
Sun Clausewitz	Posted - 2009.10.07 17:36:00 - [3] Options and consequences... 2 things EVE has You have the option of attacking that POS, but you have to face the consequences of your decision. You also have the option to leave it alone. Why does this POS bother you? Why do you want to destroy it? If you are doing it fer teh lulz, then you deserve to waste 300 days of game time. if you have a reason, maybe there is another option to accomplish your objective. Pick Three: Caldari/PVP/Solo/Success
Sig Sour	Posted - 2009.10.07 17:37:00 - [4] I was under the impression that this was a player vs player game. I apologize if I was under the wrong impression.
ddogg Amarr HuzzaH	Posted - 2009.10.07 17:39:00 - [5] I would say the - flipside is that its way harder to fuel a WH space pos, and of course take your booty to empire - so all balances out. CEO -
Sig Sour	Posted - 2009.10.07 17:45:00 - [6] That does not balance out for a PvP game. In a PVE game that argument would hold water.
Mr. Orange Gallente Band of Freelancers	Posted - 2009.10.07 17:47:00 - [7] Originally by: ddogg I would say the - flipside is that its way harder to fuel a WH space pos, and of course take your booty to empire - so all balances out. Fueling WH POS in a c1-2 is cake if the WH has a static WH to high sec. Takes about 2-3 minutes to find a new WH exit. Oh and @OP, cry more so CCP makes it an exploit. The Pusher Man
Awesome Possum Imperium Signal Corps	Posted - 2009.10.07 17:51:00 - [8] Quote: From my experience, I have taken out a medium tower with about 20-25 battleships in fleet. I do not know the exacts, but lets say a large is twice that, so in order to take out a pos in the same time you would need 40-50 BS to take one out. I've taken out a high sec large tower with ~20 BS. Taken out a medium with a hell of a lot less. But yes, large towers in class 1-2 WH are ridiculous. ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Sig Sour	Posted - 2009.10.07 17:54:00 - [9] Ouch Awesome Possum, how long did that take?
Korizan Red Mercury Incorporated	Posted - 2009.10.07 17:56:00 - [10] Well sometimes bigger is not always better. Answer - Stealth Bombers Less mass and can pack a serious punch. I believe they do more DPS then a BS considering BS could not use short range ammo. (Correct me if I am wrong here)
Jason Marshall Gallente Hammer Of Light Aegis Militia	Posted - 2009.10.07 17:57:00 - [11] Stealth Bombers are GOOOOOOO
ArmyOfMe Black Nova Corp IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.07 18:00:00 - [12] Originally by: Korizan Well sometimes bigger is not always better. Answer - Stealth Bombers Less mass and can pack a serious punch. I believe they do more DPS then a BS considering BS could not use short range ammo. (Correct me if I am wrong here) can u post the setup so i can how u managed to find one that can tank a pos?
rofflesausage	Posted - 2009.10.07 18:11:00 - [13] It's a non-issue for me. We recently did a bit of WH exploration and the results were a bit disappointing for a few reasons. 1)As soon as we put up a POS, the number of sites that spawned decreased until there is only currently anoms in the system. As soon as you put a POS up and take into account fuel, a WH becomes less profitable. 2)Logistically, while fuelling a POS in a WH isn't hard, it is tedious. 0.0 alliances have logistics in place to deal with this, a small corp can quickly find a few hours of an evening wiped out. More if combat shows up. On the plus side, I think it helps the POS situation if anything. We had someone else setup camp in 'our' wormhole. While we both couldn't bash each others POS, it lead to several nights of ship killing, smack, and competition for anything the WH had to offer. It actually forced us to concentrate on those things as opposed to boring POS wars. We are just about to leave the WH however, because of one simple fact: Profitability. In the last 2 days there have been no new site spawns with the POS up. No sites = no profit. I can understand why CCP have done this but one simple fact remains: As a small corp, we can make vast amounts of profits chain running L4s or L5s with considerably less risk than a WH. Sure, we miss the PvP aspect which we enjoy, but we all need to make a living So in short....A POS up in a WH? It needs fuelling, it doesn't make much profit, it has its own logistics.....There is no issue in my eyes. If people want to stay 'safe' they can just stay in the station. At least with them being in a WH there is a chance to catch any ships out and about
Korizan Red Mercury Incorporated	Posted - 2009.10.07 18:24:00 - [14] Originally by: ArmyOfMe can u post the setup so i can how u managed to find one that can tank a pos? THink out of the box. Well bombs have what kind of range ? and considering most people tend to group guns. You are only really concerned about the smalls and maybe the mediums depending on your speed. Some good coordination and some effort could in theory take out POS defenses with minimal losses. Then it is only a matter of settling down and with the torpedoes to finish the job. It might work and this is very rough, and I can think of several more options augment this. THe point being it is not impossible, you just have to have a plan.
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2009.10.07 18:33:00 - [15] what is your obsession with abandoned/random POSs are they really bothering you that much? there are plenty of moons up for grabs in w-space and if theres no one there at the time when you find it...ignore it or remove it if you wish seriously...explain to me how abandoned/inactive POS are negatively affecting you _____________________________________________ -Sketch, Certified Pharmacist Need a Boost?
Sig Sour	Posted - 2009.10.07 18:46:00 - [16] Originally by: Korizan THink out of the box. I promise you Korizan, that if you came across a POS I setup, even without a gunner you wouldn't be able to incap a single module, and you would suffer great losses.
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.10.07 19:03:00 - [17] Originally by: rofflesausage It's a non-issue for me. We recently did a bit of WH exploration and the results were a bit disappointing for a few reasons. 1)As soon as we put up a POS, the number of sites that spawned decreased until there is only currently anoms in the system. As soon as you put a POS up and take into account fuel, a WH becomes less profitable. 2)Logistically, while fuelling a POS in a WH isn't hard, it is tedious. 0.0 alliances have logistics in place to deal with this, a small corp can quickly find a few hours of an evening wiped out. More if combat shows up. On the plus side, I think it helps the POS situation if anything. We had someone else setup camp in 'our' wormhole. While we both couldn't bash each others POS, it lead to several nights of ship killing, smack, and competition for anything the WH had to offer. It actually forced us to concentrate on those things as opposed to boring POS wars. We are just about to leave the WH however, because of one simple fact: Profitability. In the last 2 days there have been no new site spawns with the POS up. No sites = no profit. I can understand why CCP have done this but one simple fact remains: As a small corp, we can make vast amounts of profits chain running L4s or L5s with considerably less risk than a WH. Sure, we miss the PvP aspect which we enjoy, but we all need to make a living So in short....A POS up in a WH? It needs fuelling, it doesn't make much profit, it has its own logistics.....There is no issue in my eyes. If people want to stay 'safe' they can just stay in the station. At least with them being in a WH there is a chance to catch any ships out and about Your whole post is a fail since theres no such a thing as a POS nerfing respawn rates. Its not about the system your putting the pos its about wormholes. Now responding to the OP. C2 wormholes can fit BS so your wrong here. C1 on the other hand is somehow broken by not allowing BS and allowing poses. Yes you can set up ninja pos and produce BS en masse in there , its not worth it considering your BS are stuck with no way to get out , reprocess. And no fuelling poses in w-space are not difficult nor tedious.
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.10.07 19:42:00 - [18] The OP is a tool. If you really want to to take any POS you can. But who really cares most the time - if a corp is making WH POS the backbone of its infrastructure then that corp is fairly innocuous. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Chi'kote Serenity Ascension G-R-I-E-V-A-N-C-E	Posted - 2009.10.07 19:45:00 - [19] Well, if you really want to take out a pos, throw up a tower of your own, and build a fleet of battleships, or even dreads, in the system. And there you go, you can own the system as the only people with a standing dread fleet
rofflesausage	Posted - 2009.10.07 19:49:00 - [20] Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Your whole post is a fail since theres no such a thing as a POS nerfing respawn rates. Oh how original, another poster who can't construct a sentence without the word "fail" on the Eve forums http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1042748/page/1 Even the most basic search terms will show plenty up on this. Google. Eve-Search. Ask in the exploration channels, whatever - but I assure you, after being in WH's for several months now I have little doubt this is the case. WH exploration with an Orca as a base vs a POS as a base, is worlds apart in terms of spawns. http://www.ngi-corp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=41 Quote: 11. Weather intended or not, Wspaces apparently DO bottom out when you take up residence within them. Five confirmed cases, three with POSs and two without. The Wspaces eventually dwindled to one static wormhole and one exploration spawn. Sites DESPAWN as usual, but simply to not RESPAWN at the "normal" rate.
Miss Xerox	Posted - 2009.10.07 22:14:00 - [21] Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Your whole post is a fail since theres no such a thing as a POS nerfing respawn rates. Its not about the system your putting the pos its about wormholes. Incorrect. Check resources and you'll discover that 'residing' in a Wormhole (with a POS or just a cloaked Orca/Carrier) cuts down on spawns dramatically. With an active 10 man corp working a class 1 it is rendered effectively pointless after a couple weeks, a class 2 in a month.
rofflesausage	Posted - 2009.10.07 22:22:00 - [22] Originally by: Miss Xerox With an active 10 man corp working a class 1 it is rendered effectively pointless after a couple weeks, a class 2 in a month. I suspect we have either been unlucky, or the rates have been changed. We are in a Class 3 and in under a week it is worthless. We're going back to carebear in highsec. More profit.
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2009.10.07 22:35:00 - [23] pro tip - Set up a pos in a wh system that has a static wh to ANOTHER W-SPACE SYSTEM. Blane Xero > Lance is at -0.9 sec status with a 1 million bounty. LAnce is also amarrian. Thats 3 evil points
Breaker77 Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.07 23:05:00 - [24] Quote: 11. Wspaces have a low site spawn rate. With even a little bit of player interaction you can rapidly deplete a Wspace of all sites. POS presence or absence has NO effect on respawn rates. They are just really slow naturally. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1060651 Read that then try again.
kongking wang	Posted - 2009.10.08 00:15:00 - [25] first why do people always want the easy life. if you want to take out a pos it shouldn't be a case of oh lets grab a few ships off the market and kill someone. if you desperately want to wipe out that pos in a low class wormhole then you are going to have to work hard to do it. first set up your own pos and ferry in supplys and people then build a fleet inside and then when you build all those shiney battleshipes etc you can take them out. the mechanics are there. whs are an even better sandbox than the rest of eve due to the fact you can take your time to reach your goals. if that means taking the time to build a fleet rather than gather 1 then thats what you have to do to get the job done. besides its only class 1's that have a restriction of bc's and below so all other classes are doable.
Jimer Lins Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.10.08 00:54:00 - [26] If you really want to take down a large tower in a WH, you're going to have to blockade it. Move in and live there, kill anyone trying to refuel it, camp them into the tower and kill all the defensive mods. Scan out any WHs and blockade them with bubbles and gank ships. Wardec the corp and kill any refuelers while they're still in known space. Eventually it'll run out of fuel and you can kill it quickly. Shooting it's an option but if it's a large tower you're gonna be busy for a while. Killboard-Declarations of War Podcast
kongking wang	Posted - 2009.10.08 01:18:00 - [27] tactics... this is wh space and as such it has different tactics and the only one to combat your so called exploit is to exploit it yourself. gone are the days of simple just fitting bigger guns or taking more ships. now its a planning game
Spei Prodetor	Posted - 2009.10.08 01:20:00 - [28] Its called a war of attrition... Find the WS to KS points and camp them with larger fleets 23-7 the tower will run out of fuel and go offline at which point you simply enter the WH with your bc and lay waste to everything but the tower thus causing large amounts of dmg.
Major Templar Caldari KINGS OF EDEN Sev3rance	Posted - 2009.10.08 02:47:00 - [29] Stealth Bombers FTW!!! Yes, 30 Stealth bombers can take down a large POS. Take enough in and nothing can stand up to them. Period. Major Templar Senator's Aide Kings Of Eden Sev3rance
Emperor Salazar Caldari Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2009.10.08 03:44:00 - [30] Originally by: Miss Xerox Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Your whole post is a fail since theres no such a thing as a POS nerfing respawn rates. Its not about the system your putting the pos its about wormholes. Incorrect. Check resources and you'll discover that 'residing' in a Wormhole (with a POS or just a cloaked Orca/Carrier) cuts down on spawns dramatically. With an active 10 man corp working a class 1 it is rendered effectively pointless after a couple weeks, a class 2 in a month. random spawns are random I've been in W-space for over 6 months now, same system. There have been dry spells. But POS has no effect. In the past week I have had 4 radars, 3 mags, 4 gravs, 2 ladars and at least a dozen anomalies. Stop spreading rumors.

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