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DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
284
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Posted - 2012.06.10 20:23:00 -
[31] - Quote
Most of my best fights were in frigs. Damn I got trolled. Fix FW ! |
Andy Landen
Exploring Eagles
35
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Posted - 2012.06.10 23:55:00 -
[32] - Quote
IIshira wrote:Andy Landen wrote:Anyone who suggests that flying an officer-fitted faction battleship in pvp/fw is a moron Anyone who actually thought my reply was serious and didn't get I was joking is... well you figure it out
Your "joke" was trolling my thread, and I knew that was exactly what you were doing. I didn't appreciate your detraction from my thread and I called you on it. Your welcome for keeping this discussion meaningful and real.
That said, I am surprised by some of the feedback I am seeing in this thread and want to verify if I am seeing correctly. It seems that many of you are saying that between a frigate and a cruiser, both properly fit and flown, the frigate is the more natural choice. Between a cruiser and battleship, I can easily choose a cruiser in most situations, but between a cruiser and a frigate, the choice for a frigate seems unwise unless it is for the roles of SB, Cov Ops, or Inty, or for faction frigates.
I know that the AF seems pretty good now after the buff, but the raw dps on frigate-sized targets can be exceeded by an assault caracal while also being bested in EHP, engagement range, speed, and price, and almost in scan resolution as well (with 2 scripted sebo's). While various fits can trade off performance in one area for another with ample debate on the merits of each decision and even more mud slung about it, the point is that the other half of the frigates should also be a clear choice in many situations, and not just in a few niche situations (while I don't even see the merits of those, I am listening and ready to learn).
And for all those kms which make frigates look so great, let's remember that gate camps on unlucky travelers, ganks on pve-fitted mission/site ships, and 10:1 ratio battles in favor of the frigates do not make any kind of case for the merits of the frigate. |
Alara IonStorm
2399
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 00:13:00 -
[33] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote: That said, I am surprised by some of the feedback I am seeing in this thread and want to verify if I am seeing correctly. It seems that many of you are saying that between a frigate and a cruiser, both properly fit and flown, the frigate is the more natural choice. Between a cruiser and battleship, I can easily choose a cruiser in most situations, but between a cruiser and a frigate, the choice for a frigate seems unwise unless it is for the roles of SB, Cov Ops, or Inty, or for faction frigates.
I know that the AF seems pretty good now after the buff, but the raw dps on frigate-sized targets can be exceeded by an assault caracal while also being bested in EHP, engagement range, speed, and price, and almost in scan resolution as well (with 2 scripted sebo's). While various fits can trade off performance in one area for another with ample debate on the merits of each decision and even more mud slung about it, the point is that the other half of the frigates should also be a clear choice in many situations, and not just in a few niche situations (while I don't even see the merits of those, I am listening and ready to learn).
And for all those kms which make frigates look so great, let's remember that gate camps on unlucky travelers, ganks on pve-fitted mission/site ships, and 10:1 ratio battles in favor of the frigates do not make any kind of case for the merits of the frigate.
So your argument boils down to bigger ships are better in 1v1 fights therefor smaller ships need a buff.
Then Battlecruisers are better then Cruisers therefore Cruisers are not relevant. Wait yes they are. Frigates are not supposed to beat Cruisers without heavier numbers and that is the way it is supposed to be.
Frigates intercept and lock down targets faster as well they can escape from unfavorable situations. They are not designed as large fleet DPS but fast attack craft that pick targets they can win against then swarm them with greater numbers. They cover distance quicker while evading opponents.
That is the Frigates role and it is something they have been successful in. That 10:1 Battle ratio is a great case for Frigates because 1:10 Battlecruiser gang targeting a well flown Frigate are just going to see its tail pipe flying away while in reverse an outnumbered Battlecruiser will die horribly to Frigates every time. That is the advantage of smaller ships and it is a damn relevant one. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
1239
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Posted - 2012.06.11 00:20:00 -
[34] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:And for all those kms which make frigates look so great, let's remember that gate camps on unlucky travelers, ganks on pve-fitted mission/site ships, and 10:1 ratio battles in favor of the frigates do not make any kind of case for the merits of the frigate. Why not?
Don't forget the important factor that frigates are far harder to hit than cruisers, and due to this are far more survivable in certain situations. While it is true that most frigate hulls don't shine as the "main combat ships" of fleets, there are a ton of reasons for non-newbies to fly frigates:
- T1 frigates - easily replaceable, which opens the way to far more recklessness, which can pay off in getting tackle. If my gang is a long way out, I'd rather charge and tackle a Drake in a Merlin than in a Claw.
- AFs - They vary in role a lot, but they are very well suited for any kind of brawl, and can also serve as heavy tackle, especially where their awesome resists come into play. If I had the choice of attacking a Zealot with a Rupture or a Jaguar, I'd opt for the Jaguar every time.
- Interceptors - Instant range-bonused point. 'Nuff said. Combat interceptors: deceptively survivable, and very very mobile.
- EAFs - Keres and Hyena sort of suck, but Kitsune and Sentinel get better bonuses than their cruiser counterparts while retaining the nimbleness of frigate hulls. The extra slot the cruisers get is their boon, but having tons of EHP is not the only way to stay alive.
- Bombers - BC-caliber DPS in a covert frigate hull, plus bombs. 'Nuff said.
- Covops - Best scanning ships.
It all boils down to: don't discount mobility as a ship attribute. Being fast and hard to hit is pretty cool.
And yes, in equal numbers frigates can't normally take on cruisers, and cruisers can't take on BCs, and BCs can't take on BSs, and BSes can't take on capitals. How is that a problem?
Andy Landen wrote:Your "joke" was trolling my thread, and I knew that was exactly what you were doing. I didn't appreciate your detraction from my thread and I called you on it. Your welcome for keeping this discussion meaningful and real. Chill pill. Take one. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
23
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Posted - 2012.06.11 00:25:00 -
[35] - Quote
It was a joke and not a troll. And just a little tip... If someone does troll you the last thing you want to do is comment on what they say. Trolls only are effective if you respond to them.
I was just trying to add humor to the post... Sorry if that offended you.
As for the thread topic every ship in Eve has a purpose. There is no "better" ship. As CCP would say "Working as intended" |
Andy Landen
Exploring Eagles
35
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Posted - 2012.06.11 01:20:00 -
[36] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:And yes, in equal numbers frigates can't normally take on cruisers, and cruisers can't take on BCs, and BCs can't take on BSs, and BSes can't take on capitals. How is that a problem? It seems like you are saying that capitals are the best and that everyone should fly capital ships. So why is it that few people fly capitals. Why is it that even fewer pilots fly EAF, AF, and T1 frigates? There must be a good reason. Is it possible that those frigates lack relevance? Even an inty seems kind of "pointless" (pun intended) when a Remote Sebo'ed Arazu can point and scram far more ships for far longer time at far greater ranges. Why fly to them when you can just point them from where you are? |
Alara IonStorm
2399
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 01:33:00 -
[37] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:And yes, in equal numbers frigates can't normally take on cruisers, and cruisers can't take on BCs, and BCs can't take on BSs, and BSes can't take on capitals. How is that a problem? It seems like you are saying that capitals are the best and that everyone should fly capital ships. So why is it that few people fly capitals. Yeah except he is not saying that at all in any way shape or form.
Capitals have too high a buy in cost and can not escape. Smaller ships are used more do to speed, sig and cost. Frigate is at the bottom of the scale with the least combat ability and cost with the highest speed and avoidance.
Andy Landen wrote: Why is it that even fewer pilots fly EAF, AF, and T1 frigates? There must be a good reason. Is it possible that those frigates lack relevance?
People fly them all the time.
These 2 alone are on the top 20 kill list.
7 Rifter 10315 19 Merlin 7397
Frigates see more then enough use in the game in small gangs and fast fleets.
Andy Landen wrote: Even an inty seems kind of "pointless" (pun intended) when a Remote Sebo'ed Arazu can point and scram far more ships for far longer time at far greater ranges. Why fly to them when you can just point them from where you are?
Because an Arazu has trouble holding point at the speed it moves and is easier to hit. All ship use is situation and the Arazu does not cover the Inty base. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
1241
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 01:44:00 -
[38] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:And yes, in equal numbers frigates can't normally take on cruisers, and cruisers can't take on BCs, and BCs can't take on BSs, and BSes can't take on capitals. How is that a problem? It seems like you are saying that capitals are the best and that everyone should fly capital ships. So why is it that few people fly capitals. Why is it that even fewer pilots fly EAF, AF, and T1 frigates? There must be a good reason. Is it possible that those frigates lack relevance? Even an inty seems kind of "pointless" (pun intended) when a Remote Sebo'ed Arazu can point and scram far more ships for far longer time at far greater ranges. Why fly to them when you can just point them from where you are? Price and speed.
There's a lot of psych around why people use or don't use many ships.
For example, target painting is great, and very effective, but since signature radius is a sort of nebulous attribute, most people disregard TP ships.
Another example would be ships that are far more effective when not solo, or when complementing other ships. The Coercer is amazing at its job (tearing small ships apart), but it is viewed as "pointless" because it, well, has no point. When it has a frigate or interceptor tackling for it, that doesn't matter, and it becomes awesome.
People fly EAFs less than they do capitals because EAFs are perceived as "weak" and "no damage" or other things by the masses. Support roles are not very popular, but the force multiplication they give can make or break a fleet. T1 frigates and AFs are more popular than carriers.
There are a lot more factors to why people fly or do not fly particular ships beyond "which one wins in a slugfest". If you fail to understand that, then please drop the subject until you have enough experience to tackle it properly. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
175
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Posted - 2012.06.11 03:46:00 -
[39] - Quote
So the OP is saying that flying anything but a titan is irrelevant and pointless. Because afterall its much better then anything below it.
And if he has an issue with the cost of one .. he must have problems as a player.
Not sure if OP is a dirty troll or not. |
Katalci
Creative Cookie Procuring Veto Corp
98
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Posted - 2012.06.11 04:30:00 -
[40] - Quote
Surely you're joking, Mr. Landen |
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Dave stark
Black Nova Corp. IMPERIAL LEGI0N
9
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Posted - 2012.06.11 04:55:00 -
[41] - Quote
small ships are amazing, i'm a huge fan of frigates.
every time your ship gets popped, you learn some thing. frigates are small cheap and disposable, in terms of burning isk to learn things frigates are definitely the way to go.
not to mention the fact that being innately fast and agile can get you out of so many tight spots it's amazing. i doubt i'll ever fly any thing larger than a destroyer unless it's needed for a specific situation because smaller ships are just so much fun to fly. |
Nex apparatu5
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
292
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 13:44:00 -
[42] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Klown Walk wrote:Maybe people use them because it-¦s fun to use a frigate? I think that it is fun to win. Otherwise, why not pvp in a shuttle? The dps is about the same, but the cost is much less.
Actually, if you do the math, a frig does roughly infinity times more damage than a shuttle.
That's a pretty big increase. |
Kamden Line
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2012.06.11 19:49:00 -
[43] - Quote
X up for Sabre tackle fleet. |
Soldarius
TreadStone Standard The 99 Percent
237
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 04:26:00 -
[44] - Quote
So bombers are no longer relevant? There are a lot of people in game that would disagree with you, myself included. "How do you kill that which has no life?" |
Alaric Faelen
Black Rebel Rifter Club
78
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 15:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
OP's right, frigates are total crap. My corp specifically bans their use in fleets, we just have no use for them whatsoever. |
Alara IonStorm
2405
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 15:15:00 -
[46] - Quote
Alaric Faelen wrote:OP's right, frigates are total crap. My corp specifically bans their use in fleets, we just have no use for them whatsoever. I trust this mans analysis. |
that beast
Disconnected. Choke Point
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 17:18:00 -
[47] - Quote
Huh...
In that case... Guess I'd better get rid of all these wolves, because they can't take out cruisers... I heard they just get scrammed and webbed and screwed over... by a cruiser with dual sebos? How many mids does he have exactly? Also negating the fact that my "useless" AF can hit harder than a cruiser (in applied) and well outside of web range. In fact, even with autocannons and decent skills you'll hit out to about 24km. Of course you won't do fantastic DPS but enough to take out the ****fit cruiser that wants to take you on... And then we get to the arty fits... Now you're really buggered.
OP also said at one point that no frigates were useful against cruisers except SB? I'm sorry but the absolute HP of an SB probably doesn't break 1000, and as long as that cruiser is moving, an SB isn't even going to get through shields before the pilot finds himself back in station.
So many people are here saying that they like Frigates and find them useful... I don't think there was a single answer which said, seriously, that they were useless and that the poster agreed with you. Surely that should be enough to show you you're quite wrong?
Awaiting to see your pod next to the wreck that I shall be looting
TB |
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Persona Non Gratis
61
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 17:21:00 -
[48] - Quote
Frigates are good for screaming around the field knowing you could be dead in mere moments, holding on to bigger ships for fleetmates, or indeed just to shoot at yourself. If you go boom, you barely register it as frigates cost next to nothing.
In other words, they're fun. EVE's a game - they're meant to be fun "Fools! I'll show them all!"
What do you mean that one's already taken? |
Andy Landen
Exploring Eagles
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 19:08:00 -
[49] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:So bombers are no longer relevant? There are a lot of people in game that would disagree with you, myself included. What happens when you don't read and don't think, and then post from pure gut feeling from reading only the one line of the title? .. Lots of posts like the one above which make you raise your eyebrows and scratch your head wondering which thread the poster just finished reading before accidentally posting their response to it in here. For the record, we all know about roles and about prices and about how bigger ships have more ehp and dps, and how frigates can be awesome against them anyways if it is one on one in the right situation and fittings, etc, etc. This isn't a thread about which class is better or about which class is funner, etc. It is only about which class is neglected and if so, why and what may need to be fixed. For instance, low sec guns insta-popping a frigate .. Seems like they should have tracking to deal with .. stuff like that. |
Dischordant
Repo.
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 19:30:00 -
[50] - Quote
Let's see, I've downed well fit Cruisers solo in t1 frigates, but frigates are useless eh? Tell that to the Talos I had in deep armor with my rifter a while back (who had a friend come bail him out).
They're utterly useless, espcially for those new players who can't fly bigger. It's not like they can tackle bigger ships in a gang like that either, eh?
Seriously though, they've got their strengths and weaknesses, and I think they're in a pretty good place right now. |
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
1248
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 19:31:00 -
[51] - Quote
Dischordant wrote:Let's see, I've downed well fit Cruisers solo in t1 frigates, but frigates are useless eh? Tell that to the Talos I had in deep armor with my rifter a while back (who had a friend come bail him out). Bah, my Malediction had a Loki in deep armor once, and he had to bring in a Legion to save him from the most embarassing lossmail of his life. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Forum Clone 77777
State War Academy Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 19:33:00 -
[52] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Anyone who suggests that flying an officer-fitted faction battleship in pvp/fw is a moron, and a detraction from a thread about making frigates relevant and a natural choice over a cruiser in some situations.
Anyone who cites that frigates are used in null sec is noting the exceptions which I already mentioned: intie, cov ops, and sb, etc. I am talking about the rest of the frigates.
And if a frigate is chosen because the pilot cannot afford 4 mil ISK for the cruiser hull, then that pilot has other problems.
Theres too damn much irony in this reply of yours, I could spend hours typing alot of words explaining why and how stupid you are, but instead, Ill ask you to unsub, youre worthless to EVE.
100 man battleship fleet incomming? Hah! They can be harrassed so easily. 100 man frigate fleet incoming? **** THEY CAN BE 20 SYSTEMS AHEAD BEFORE INTEL CATCHES UP AND NOTHING CAN ESCAPE THE *******! SHIIIT!
Need I say more? |
Hemmo Paskiainen
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
330
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 21:00:00 -
[53] - Quote
a frigat gives more thrill, more exitement and more adrinaline
adrinaline junkies fly frigats or sabres
in matter of fact, i rather fly frigats than battleships CCP FIX BLACK OPS FFS |
Dalts
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
13
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Posted - 2012.06.12 23:06:00 -
[54] - Quote
Got to say Op, this is a definite 9/10 troll, got to be a troll and its got many hook line and sinker...
9/10 because to get the full 10 it would have needed mention of 'because of Falcon' to go with Titans and Winmatar getting honourable mentions in the replies elicited. |
Alara IonStorm
2408
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 23:19:00 -
[55] - Quote
No explanation to my post given at current time or possibly ever.
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Andy Landen
Exploring Eagles
36
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Posted - 2012.06.13 00:43:00 -
[56] - Quote
Dalts wrote:Got to say Op, this is a definite 9/10 troll, got to be a troll and its got many hook line and sinker...
9/10 because to get the full 10 it would have needed mention of 'because of Falcon' to go with Titans and Winmatar getting honourable mentions in the replies elicited. Seriously, I am not trolling, except where I was. And I do not fly frigates, except those that I do fly. And I am not saying that carriers are better than frigates, except where they pop them so easy. Or that frigates are better than carriers, except where they stay out of range, keep point, and switch off tackle with warp outs as needed. I just want to tank gate guns in low sec with my T1 frigates. And I want to see 30% ECM bonus to the kitsune plus 1-2 more medium slots, and covert ops cloaks for all T2 frigates. And still, no trolling here. It is the other guys .. not me. serious .. really. |
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