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Ships I'd love to see significantly changed

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Salpad Carebears with Attitude	Posted - 2009.10.10 15:28:00 - [151] Kestrel. Reduce its damage bonus somewhat. Currently it is +10%/lvl for kinetic missiles/rockets, and +5%/level for other missiles/rockets. Reduce that bonus to 7.5%/lvl for kinetic, and either keep the 5%/lvl bonus or reduce it to 3.75%. Then in exchange, make the Kestrel slightly more durable (increase shield HP), and slightly easier to fit (increase CPU and powergrid - not slots; it has an adequate number of slots already). Among other things, this also opens up for AFs being able to compete better with Kestrels, or even the hypothetical T1 missile destroyer. Currently, the Kestrel flown with Caldari Frigate skill 5 has effectively six standard missile launchers, so any missile AF has to outperform that, and likewise the hypothetical T1 missile destroyer, in order to not be ridiculed. That's rather hard. If the kinetic damage bonus is lowered, a maxed skill Kestrel "counts" only as 5.5 effective Standard Lauchers. A T1 missile destroyer with 7 missile hardpoints outperforms that, and T2 AFs can easily outperform that too, if they get both a damage bonus and a RoF bonus. And in exchange for that, the Kestrel can get some help in areas where it is quite annoyingly painful to fly: Fitting and tank. Also the Merlin. I'd love to see it as a dedicated missile ship, or a dedicated gunboat. The current schizo-hardpoint setup bothers me a lot. Being a Caldari ship, the Merlin should be made into a missile ship too, same way the Kestrel is, except where the Kestrel emphasizes DPS (something I want reduced only slightly), the Merlin emphasizes durabulity, and also easy fitting (it has much more CPU and powergrid than the Kestrel). I want that retained. Caldari can (and should!) have two tier 3 missile ships, with different characteristics. Give the Merlin 1 extra laucher hardpoint. That's all I'm asking for. It doesn't even need a damage or RoF bonus. Just let me fit a 3rd launcher. -- Salpad C.E.O., Carebears with Attitude
Tyler Lowe DROW Org Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2009.10.10 16:01:00 - [152] Originally by: Liang Nuren - Painter bonused ships: Sigh. You call this ** ewar? - Rapier/Huginn: Web strength bonus please. Maybe at the cost of the painter bonus. See above: You call this ** ewar? -Liang Ed: If you're wondering why I left the Tempest off: I'm withholding judgment on the Tempest until I've seen the final iteration of the Projectile changes. It would be a mistake to balance the Tempest before projectiles are fixed. I asked about this back when the changes to webs were announced on the CCP feadback thread. I don't think the TP bonus is so strong that it needs to be dropped if there is a boost to the webbing. I think the ship can keep both. The Vigil on the other hand, I would like to see go towards webbing range/effectiveness. What I asked for, and would like to see, is the addition of "and 10%/level to the effectiveness of Stasis Webifiers" added to the description of the web range bonus on the Huginn/Rapier/Vigil(post change). We have this bonus on Marauders but not on ships dedicated to webbing as their e-war? WTF.
Aoa Lux Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.10 16:33:00 - [153] Originally by: Salpad Being a Caldari ship, the Merlin should be made into a missile ship too, same way the Kestrel is, except where the Kestrel emphasizes DPS (something I want reduced only slightly), the Merlin emphasizes durabulity, and also easy fitting (it has much more CPU and powergrid than the Kestrel). I want that retained. Caldari can (and should!) have two tier 3 missile ships, with different characteristics. Being a Caldari ship, the Rokh should be made into a missile ship too, same way the Raven is, except where the Raven emphasizes DPS (something I want reduced only slightly), the Rokh emphasizes durabulity, and also easy fitting (it has much more CPU and powergrid than the Raven). I want that retained. Caldari can (and should!) have two tier 3 missile ships, with different characteristics. Yeah. No. Caldari use hybrids just as much as missiles. Give merlin the turret slots it deserves.
Salpad Carebears with Attitude	Posted - 2009.10.10 16:36:00 - [154] Originally by: Aoa Lux Yeah. No. Caldari use hybrids just as much as missiles. Give merlin the turret slots it deserves. Either way, the current situation is stupid. Merlin should get either one extra launcher hardpoint, or one extra turret hardpoint. Even if schizo hardpoint ships should exist, they should never be top-tier ships, meaning tier 3 ships. -- Salpad C.E.O., Carebears with Attitude
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.10.10 17:58:00 - [155] Originally by: Salpad Originally by: Aoa Lux Yeah. No. Caldari use hybrids just as much as missiles. Give merlin the turret slots it deserves. Either way, the current situation is stupid. Merlin should get either one extra launcher hardpoint, or one extra turret hardpoint. Even if schizo hardpoint ships should exist, they should never be top-tier ships, meaning tier 3 ships. I'd love a Merlin that can fit 3 Light Neutrons. Why not? Really make it into a Little Moa. But that requires that it should get roughly 10 more CPU and PG.
Salpad Carebears with Attitude	Posted - 2009.10.10 18:04:00 - [156] Originally by: Tagami Wasp I'd love a Merlin that can fit 3 Light Neutrons. Why not? Really make it into a Little Moa. But that requires that it should get roughly 10 more CPU and PG. I've never had any problems fitting the Merlin, whereas the Kestrel is extremely tight in terms of either CPU or powergrid (I forget which one). The real problem are the schizo hardpoints. 2 turrets for guns, 2 launchers for missiles or rockets. What to optimize for? It doesn't work. You have to skill up for both kinds of weapon systems, you end up not fitting a damage increase module in a LOW slot, and you have to carry 2 types of ammo. -- Salpad C.E.O., Carebears with Attitude
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.10.10 18:07:00 - [157] Originally by: Salpad What to optimize for? It doesn't work. You have to skill up for both kinds of weapon systems, you end up not fitting a damage increase module in a LOW slot, and you have to carry 2 types of ammo. What is the ship bonused for again? Right click> Show Info
Salpad Carebears with Attitude	Posted - 2009.10.10 18:31:00 - [158] Originally by: Tagami Wasp What is the ship bonused for again? Right click> Show Info That doesn't justify it having a schizo hardpoint setup. Give it a 3rd turret hardpoint, then, recognizing that it is bonussed as a gunship. -- Salpad C.E.O., Carebears with Attitude
AstroPhobic Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.10.10 18:36:00 - [159] Originally by: Salpad Originally by: Tagami Wasp I'd love a Merlin that can fit 3 Light Neutrons. Why not? Really make it into a Little Moa. But that requires that it should get roughly 10 more CPU and PG. I've never had any problems fitting the Merlin, whereas the Kestrel is extremely tight in terms of either CPU or powergrid (I forget which one). The real problem are the schizo hardpoints. 2 turrets for guns, 2 launchers for missiles or rockets. What to optimize for? It doesn't work. You have to skill up for both kinds of weapon systems, you end up not fitting a damage increase module in a LOW slot, and you have to carry 2 types of ammo. Sounds a lot like a number of minmatar ships. Split weapon ships are boned to begin with.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2009.10.10 19:10:00 - [160] Low tier and high tier frigs and BCs need precisely this sort of evening out, I agree. At least with the BS you can, with the right fitting, get ships that can compete on quite equal terms. Rockets need fixing. Hell, missiles in general need fixing. Re-calculate the explosion velocity formula and realize that people will be speedtanking well and easily enough that only 20-30% of the damage under optimal conditions getting through will not be sufficient. There are too many more or less useless T2 ships and suggestions regarding this to mention. I believe they all have threads either way. But on the point of split weapon setups... Please change it so that Minmatar T2 ships have some particular trademark choice of weapons. Turn Core Complexion, Thukker or Boundless Creation ships into either dedicated projectile or dedicated missile ships. And look over the Typhoon as well. And, like has already been said, please fix projectiles in a decent fashion. ACs in particular deserve a significant boost; even doubling their base optimal, raising the base damage multiplier to 4.0 on a 425 II and scaling after that, and boosting T2 ammunition, they'd still be rather balanced compared to other turrets. Well, except blasters, of course. But those are already ****e unless put on an optimal-bonused Caldari ship. _________________________________________________________
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.10 19:13:00 - [161] They are boosting projectiles.... not a lot, but it is a boost. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Renarla	Posted - 2009.10.10 20:22:00 - [162] Originally by: Tagami Wasp Originally by: Salpad Originally by: Aoa Lux Yeah. No. Caldari use hybrids just as much as missiles. Give merlin the turret slots it deserves. Either way, the current situation is stupid. Merlin should get either one extra launcher hardpoint, or one extra turret hardpoint. Even if schizo hardpoint ships should exist, they should never be top-tier ships, meaning tier 3 ships. I'd love a Merlin that can fit 3 Light Neutrons. Why not? Really make it into a Little Moa. But that requires that it should get roughly 10 more CPU and PG. You can't complain about the Merlin when the Tristan exists. Such a sad little ship, just begging to be loved. However, on another note, I now have one of those annoying sigs.
Deathhawk Hammersmith Hardmen Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2009.10.10 20:28:00 - [163] If you were to add another med slot to the retri it would be superwtfbbqpwnsauce overpowered :) but I would like it if it did have another :D Chuck Norris wears Deathhawk pyjamas One image per sig please. Zymurgist Forum **** at its best. DH
Pater Peccavi Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.10.10 20:35:00 - [164] Originally by: AstroPhobic Sounds a lot like a number of minmatar ships. Split weapon ships are boned to begin with. No, split weapon systems are versatile! _________
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.10.10 20:58:00 - [165] Originally by: Renarla You can't complain about the Merlin when the Tristan exists. Such a sad little ship, just begging to be loved. When I train Gallente frig 5, I'll give it a go. For the time being, I prefer to hone my support skills before I cross-train.
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.10.10 21:48:00 - [166] Originally by: Allen Ramses Making them "unreasonably stupid to fit" depends on your definition of unreasonably stupid. A remote repair system which is restricted to being fit on Caldari BS only is destined to fail and is as such unreasonably stupid, since you cannot realistically make gangs which exclude everyone else flying a battleship. It's not that complicated. Even with lower CPU requirements for shield RRs (which are, also, about 33% harder to fit CPU and 17% harder to fit PG wise then LSBs which they are based on, not some silly 200% or so), you'll rarely see a shield RR BS gang due to slot issues excluding things like Amarr BS realistically participating in them and so on (but you could use remote shield Tempests and Dominixes reasonably well for instance). TL:DR; it's not that "shield transporters require users to think about their fitting in relation to the well being of their gang". Shield transporters require users to fly caldari BS only due to both slot layouts and CPU requirements, and therefore they are fail. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Arrador	Posted - 2009.10.10 22:02:00 - [167] yea, the Caldari Frigates are a little boned... Merlin - Split weapons, yet clearly bonused to Hybrids. Give us a third turret slot while keeping the current highslot count the same. (4 high slots, 3 turret slots, 2 missile slots). Also give it a pinch more CPU/PG to fit the 3rd turret Same for kestrel. Fitting missiles and any sort of tank on that ship is akin to pulling teeth.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.10.10 22:20:00 - [168] I wonder if someone cares to do a quick poll and count how many Caldari ships are mentioned in relation to the number total, as well as for the rest of the races. Bet you I now which race has the most complaints... Pareto analysis would be just the tool to see where most failures appear and try to apply fixes there, but it costs 5000 Euro to retain me to just to look at a case and CCP hasn't payed me for this yet.
M Blanc	Posted - 2009.10.10 23:07:00 - [169] Omen Near-unfittable as it stands. Needs a significant boost to CPU and grid so it can do an 800mm plate/focused medium pulse setup at bare minimum. Merlin and Tristan Same problem with both - split weapons. Move the Merlin to a 3 turret/1 launcher setup. Could do the same for the Tristan but that might make it too much like the Incursus - maybe drop one launcher slot and give it 15-20m^3 of dronebay and bandwidth instead? Cormorant, Catalyst, Coercer More fitting, naow! Need a solid buff to bring them on to a par with the Thrasher. Give the Coercer a midslot. Eagle Can only do a viable sniper fit with both an ACR and an RCU, and so effectively has one less slot than the Muninn/Zealot. Increase base grid to ~1100 so you only need one fitting mod to bring it into line with the other sniper HACs. Raptor Ugh, this is terrible. Unfittable, awful ship concept, slow... blech.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2009.10.11 02:39:00 - [170] Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 11/10/2009 02:45:56 Originally by: M Blanc Cormorant, Catalyst, Coercer More fitting, naow! Need a solid buff to bring them on to a par with the Thrasher. Give the Coercer a midslot. Their fitting is horrible. With the thrasher I can fit 7 280mm II and a T1 MWD with only one MAPC. The other three can't do this and struggle horribly. They're designed poorly as well. Three destroyers are supposed to be sniping platforms. The ROF penalty makes alpha critical. Minmatar is king of this - especially where unfortified interceptors are concerned. My setup throws out a 1369 alpha at 11km. Optimal plus falloff is 22km. 40% of the original alpha would be around 547. And it can wing interceptors out to 30km albeit barely. It's DPS is a weak 169. The closest to this is the coercer. Using faction X-ray you can get an alpha of 524 out to 19km. Falloff of 5km. DPS of 145. You have to use two MAPC to fit the Medium Beam Laser II. The ROF penalty kills it. It's subpar to the thrasher unless you fit for long range and go for a very weak alpha. The cormorant and catalyst are even worse. The cormorant has a DPS of around 100 and an alpha of 300. It can hit out to 50km but I'd never use one. The whole strategy of the destroyer is to shock and awe frigates. You're not as fast as they are. You're not going to win an speed battle. This is why the catalyst fails. You have a DPS version of a destroyer that has an ROF penalty. Stupid. I don't put points on my thrasher b/c most battles are over in two salvoes. I can't imagine an interceptor sitting around while it gets plinked to death. These three destroyers need to be rethought. The Thrasher gets a tracking and a damage bonus. It also gets a 50% optimal bonus in return for a 25% ROF penalty. This is perfect for the Thrasher. Let's think out of the box on the other three. Better fitting requirements. Nix the double optimal range. Different penalties? Edit: The "Sniper" AF are built on the destroyer platforms. Armored versions that do a bit less damage. Retribution and coercer have a similar issue when you think of it. Addressing one can be used in the other area as well. O - and that RFEMP ammo I like to use in the Thrasher is getting a 10% buff as well.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2009.10.11 02:46:00 - [171] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/10/2009 02:47:26 Originally by: Zarnak Wulf It also gets a 50% optimal bonus in return for a 25% ROF penalty. This is perfect for the Thrasher. Let's think out of the box on the other three. Better fitting requirements. Nix the double optimal range. Different penalties? I underlined the part that is simply false. Yes, the Thrasher works - I love them. But no, a 50% optimal bonus isn't the best bonus for it to have. -Liang Ed: BTW, I do support boosting the destroyer class as a whole - even the Thrasher (although less than the other races). -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.10.11 06:07:00 - [172] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/10/2009 02:47:26 Originally by: Zarnak Wulf It also gets a 50% optimal bonus in return for a 25% ROF penalty. This is perfect for the Thrasher. Let's think out of the box on the other three. Better fitting requirements. Nix the double optimal range. Different penalties? I underlined the part that is simply false. Yes, the Thrasher works - I love them. But no, a 50% optimal bonus isn't the best bonus for it to have. -Liang Ed: BTW, I do support boosting the destroyer class as a whole - even the Thrasher (although less than the other races). 50% alpha. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Exitar Stormscion	Posted - 2009.10.11 06:38:00 - [173] I would vote for: Omen - more pg and cpu. Maller - maybe make it missile boat. Prophecy - make it like maller missile boat ? Mortal in body Eternal in will.
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2009.10.11 07:17:00 - [174] Originally by: Cpt Branko It's not that complicated. Even with lower CPU requirements for shield RRs (which are, also, about 33% harder to fit CPU and 17% harder to fit PG wise then LSBs which they are based on, not some silly 200% or so), you'll rarely see a shield RR BS gang due to slot issues excluding things like Amarr BS realistically participating in them and so on (but you could use remote shield Tempests and Dominixes reasonably well for instance). 200%? Where did that come from, and what does it have to do with anything? Anyway, you rarely see shield RR BS gangs due to the fact that an RST doesn't require a mere 30% of the fitting compared to the module it is based on. This makes it quite rare outside dedicated ships, which is EXACTLY how it should be. If the LRAR needed 33% more PG than the LAR, you wouldn't see every battleship fitting a pair. Perhaps the LAR requires WAY too much grid (understatement), but that is not a valid excuse for why the LRAR requires WAY too little grid (again, understatement). Face it, the grid requirements for LRAR are just plain STUPID! ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006.

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