EVE Search - pvp alternative to missiles

Check My IP Information

All Channels

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

pvp alternative to missiles

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
necrosia demora	Posted - 2009.10.09 15:25:00 - [1] we all know as far as pvp is concerned missile users are at a disadvantage due to many reasons. howether i have come up with a pvp alternative that might bridge that gap. what we need is a weapon that is as effective as turrets but uses missile skills lets take RL into account for the moment. now we all know soldiers use rifles. take these as your normal pvp turret types. when it comes to missiles/rockets these are for all intensive purposes specialised weapons. howether soldiers these days have another weapon which bridges this gap to amazing effect. this is the grenade launcher. whilst this type of weapon fires similar to a rifle it also packs the punch of a small rocket. with a bit of ballancing i can see a simmilar system being introduced to eve which if ballanced right would allow caldari primarily but also the other races an alternative to missiles while still using those skills plus a few others. the way i see it working is much like a turret but with missile damage bonuses. the "grenadier" skill could have tracking and fall of bonuses etc either in 1 skill or more while still using some missile skills. i give no examples of skill bonuses or damage etc as i will leave that to ccp to ballance out on par with other turret types before anyone says it will nerf missiles infact i belive with the right pre requirements skill wize the player who trgs for this new weapon will have a higher skill lvl all round in most missile skills which do not boost the new weapon. with the short range of the grenade launcher it will not be quickly adopted by mission runners for pve means. with the right ballancing of skills both grenade launchers or various sizes and misiles of equivelent sizes would be almost exactly the same damage howether 1 will do better damage to pvpers and the other to npc's
Valandril Caldari Ex-Mortis	Posted - 2009.10.09 15:29:00 - [2] I find missile boats more than fine in pvp, so you are doing it wrong. Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist
necrosia demora	Posted - 2009.10.09 15:43:00 - [3] Originally by: Valandril I find missile boats more than fine in pvp, so you are doing it wrong. thats the problem. they are just fine, not great or amazing, just fine. nothing more. a missile boat against a similar skilled turret user in siilar size ships isnt going to win alone
Valandril Caldari Ex-Mortis	Posted - 2009.10.09 15:44:00 - [4] Originally by: necrosia demora Originally by: Valandril I find missile boats more than fine in pvp, so you are doing it wrong. thats the problem. they are just fine, not great or amazing, just fine. nothing more. a missile boat against a similar skilled turret user in siilar size ships isnt going to win alone Wrong in so many places that i don't know where to start pointing. Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist
Luminus Aardokay Gallente SI Radio	Posted - 2009.10.09 15:44:00 - [5] A grenade launcher fires a shell that contains explosives, shrapnels and a timer mechanism. The shell then travels through the air at a specific trajectory, and exploding when its countdown timer reaches zero, spreading the shrapnels everywhere causing damage in its area of effect. Considering that trajectory of course is caused by gravity which is (of course again) absent in space, anything that gets fired off a bay has to go in a straight line, so your grenade would have to go straight ahead. Considering also that if the grenade would explode on impact it would require a warhead, thus making it just another missile, the grenade must have a timer and explode when it reaches zero. Considering that the grenade upon explosion probably won't be useful unless the explosion touches something, it has to have an area of effect. Finally to have any meaning, the grenade must have quite the size, and pack quite the punch if you give a direct analogy between a bullet and a grenade. Considering that minmatar fire bullets the size of volkswagen beetles, the grenades should be quite huge and heavy. With all that in mind, I sum up: This new weapon should be: - Fired off a launcher - Be extremely heavy and big - Fly on a straight line - Have a timed explosion - Cause massive damage over an area of effect Now that is a truly excellent idea... except.. CCP has already implemented it... and called it "Bomb"...
mchief117	Posted - 2009.10.09 15:45:00 - [6] the main problem is not that missiles cant do damage. its that they are exculded by PVP gangs simple because there damage is not instant and groups generaly face of at 100K ish for which crusie missiles take 30 seconds to get to target. meaning that its eather dead or warping buy the time they get there
necrosia demora	Posted - 2009.10.09 15:52:00 - [7] Originally by: Luminus Aardokay A grenade launcher fires a shell that contains explosives, shrapnels and a timer mechanism. The shell then travels through the air at a specific trajectory, and exploding when its countdown timer reaches zero, spreading the shrapnels everywhere causing damage in its area of effect. Considering that trajectory of course is caused by gravity which is (of course again) absent in space, anything that gets fired off a bay has to go in a straight line, so your grenade would have to go straight ahead. Considering also that if the grenade would explode on impact it would require a warhead, thus making it just another missile, the grenade must have a timer and explode when it reaches zero. Considering that the grenade upon explosion probably won't be useful unless the explosion touches something, it has to have an area of effect. Finally to have any meaning, the grenade must have quite the size, and pack quite the punch if you give a direct analogy between a bullet and a grenade. Considering that minmatar fire bullets the size of volkswagen beetles, the grenades should be quite huge and heavy. With all that in mind, I sum up: This new weapon should be: - Fired off a launcher - Be extremely heavy and big - Fly on a straight line - Have a timed explosion - Cause massive damage over an area of effect Now that is a truly excellent idea... except.. CCP has already implemented it... and called it "Bomb"... WTF.. google grenade launchers before you post a pile of s**t. as for the rest of your reply i dont know were to start to rip that appart
Grarr Bexx	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:08:00 - [8] Originally by: mchief117 the main problem is not that missiles cant do damage. its that they are exculded by PVP gangs simple because there damage is not instant and groups generaly face of at 100K ish for which crusie missiles take 30 seconds to get to target. meaning that its eather dead or warping buy the time they get there This, and the fact that armor tanks on missile boats are generally weak (besides the sacrilege, but the sacrilege is crap anyways).
necrosia demora	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:09:00 - [9] Edited by: necrosia demora on 09/10/2009 16:12:25 first off a grenade launcher fires an explosive shell which detonates on impact.this is not firing hand grenades or anything similar. the most modern one in existance does have a smart mechanism but that would be pointless in eve which is why i didnt suggest it. second i suggested it be fired on a simmilar bases as turrets. the reason being turrets are balistic and so are grenade launchers.gravity affects a grenade launcher rounds the same as any other round but seing as there is no gravity in space your argument is irellivent. howether due to the size of the grenade round drag would effect the grenad more than the turret rounds hence shorter range. grenade launcher rounds can have an optional effects including a larger aoe effect but in RL they are mostly use to take out soft skinned targets on impact. the aoe is secondry to the initial destructive power. to sum it up This new weapon is: - fired from a grenade launcher (turret) not Fired off a launcher - is lightweight and compact not extremely heavy and big - same affecting problems as turrets when it comes to Flying in a straight line - is detonate on impact like missiles not a timed explosion - Cause same blast effect as missiles not massive damage over an area of effect - short range but faster rate of fire but less damage than a missile of similar size oh and it certainly isnt like a bomb get your facts right next time
Luminus Aardokay Gallente SI Radio	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:13:00 - [10] You obviously miss the point that this was a humorous approach to your initial post, instead of just replying HTFU... but for the sake of posterity, let's give that a shot. Upon googling grenade launcher, I came across the wikipedia entry for it which states that.. Quote: A grenade launcher is a weapon that launches a grenade with more accuracy, higher velocity and to greater distances than a soldier could throw it by hand. Now that we got that out of the way of being a totally irrelevant argument whatsoever here's some food for thought for you. Weapons utilized by the four races have advantages and disadvantages. Turrets have the advantage of instantly hitting an opponent at great distances, BUT they are susceptible to a target's signature radius and transversal velocity. Furthermore turret weapons have an optimal and a falloff range. Thus turrets do not always hit the opponent! Missiles on the other hand might take some time to travel to their destination, but no matter what, if the target is in their flight range, they WILL hit (with the exception of Defender missile usage) and they will cause massive amounts of damage. Missile boats are excellent for PVP and I would risk saying that they are even more powerful in PVP than any other ship. Proof of concept, the latest Alliance Tournament. The vast majority of ships being fielded by all teams were Caldari. Pandemic Legion won the finals with a setup filled with Stealth Bombers! Finally, I find the grenade in space idea fundamentally flawed, as a grenade is a weapon type that causes AOE damage after it explodes.. it's purpose is not to cause kinetic damage by being a projectile, or explode upon impact.

necrosia demora	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:15:00 - [11] Originally by: Grarr Bexx Originally by: mchief117 the main problem is not that missiles cant do damage. its that they are exculded by PVP gangs simple because there damage is not instant and groups generaly face of at 100K ish for which crusie missiles take 30 seconds to get to target. meaning that its eather dead or warping buy the time they get there This, and the fact that armor tanks on missile boats are generally weak (besides the sacrilege, but the sacrilege is crap anyways). problem is they are not fast enougth. my alternative allows for faster firing but at a cost. essentially this is a short to mid range weapon so with a range reduction and a faster fire rate even if the damage is exactly the same as a standard missile user the effect of this would be a great improvement on overall effectivness
Luminus Aardokay Gallente SI Radio	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:19:00 - [12] Originally by: necrosia demora to sum it up This new weapon is: - fired from a grenade launcher (turret) not Fired off a launcher - is lightweight and compact not extremely heavy and big - same affecting problems as turrets when it comes to Flying in a straight line - is detonate on impact like missiles not a timed explosion - Cause same blast effect as missiles not massive damage over an area of effect - short range but faster rate of fire but less damage than a missile of similar size So basically you're describing the minmatar weapons...
necrosia demora	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:24:00 - [13] Edited by: necrosia demora on 09/10/2009 16:25:36 luminus i spent 10 years in the damd army. you telling me i dont know what im talking about.the grenade the wiki talks about is in no way similar to a hand grenade. therfore no pins, no fly off levers and certainly no timed detonator. the grenade launcher round is a shell on a small scale on par with the same destructive power of a hand grenade. youtube grenade launcher and you will see the thing firing and the rounds and how they work. dont just make assumptions over a wiki decription.
Grarr Bexx	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:29:00 - [14] I believe the item you're looking for is the Bomb Launcher I. I'm sorry, it's not because the meta game rules them out, that missile ships are not viable. If you want to keep up with turret users, train for it. Welcome to EVE.
Luminus Aardokay Gallente SI Radio	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:33:00 - [15] Although I would appreciate some citing of sources regarding impact grenades, you are falling victim to semantics here. I do not doubt the existence of impact grenades, smart grenades, or in the 234th century the existence of grenades with the essence of Buddha in theme. I also do not doubt your military expertise or knowledge of weaponry and how that works and of course my intent is not to start a flame war with you. What I'm trying to convey to you here is that there is already a balance on the weapons the missile boats utilize. Advantages and disadvantages. Yes they have a slower Rate of fire.. yes they have travel time.. but they always hit, they cause great deals of damage, and they are not susceptible to weapon disruption effects. There is no real need to create additional weaponry and ammunition types for the sake of balance. As for what you describe as an alternative solution, if it were a timed grenade then it already exists in the form of bombs. If it's an impact weapons, at short range with higher rate of fire then it already exists as a Minmatar projectile weapon.
necrosia demora	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:41:00 - [16] Originally by: Grarr Bexx I believe the item you're looking for is the Bomb Launcher I. I'm sorry, it's not because the meta game rules them out, that missile ships are not viable. If you want to keep up with turret users, train for it. Welcome to EVE. erm...no did you read any of the post. my post in no way describes a bomb these are what i described http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX-99a1JCc4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6LoyOmHckM there are many more. first one shows the damage (oh were is that major aoe damage) the second shos it firing like any other turret type weapon (not fire and forget like a bomb)
Sith LordX	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:43:00 - [17] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNXK_0qIa1M No this is how the grenade launcher turrets should be like. Fires 46 rounds in under a second. Metal storm has different veriations. There are also machine grenade launchers like this in a sentury turret form. If ships had this weapon in a much larger size it should be like a gatling gun or railgun based with explosive rounds, frag rounds, acid rounds, and so on. The shells would be fired just as effective as a blaster turret and such based weapons only it uses a warhead that would make the same effective explosion as a HAM. Or it can be shot from a long range barrel to hit far out. Or it could be used like metal storm, have a crap load of barrels, shoot all the rounds at the same time and do MASSIVE damage and take awile to reload. This would be quite effective for duels. You can do the same volly damage a blaster ship takes to do to you in say 20 secs, but it takes you 30secs to reload base. So say 20,000 alpha damage in one hit with explosions all over the place in a large area because its like 50 rounds per turret and you have say 8 of them you use up a large amount of ammo.
Neriel Odershank	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:45:00 - [18] Learn to play, learn to fight, 'couse you are failing completely. Missiles are not bad, the "problem" is just their delay, but in close/medium range (where THE MOST of the fight happen) it's not a problem. The 'other issue' is that people find it a bit hard to fit tackling modules and tank, but again, it's not that big problem, becouse not everyone in a gang must fit as a tackler and btw... surprise surprise... you can! Using missiles have some advanteges over turrets too: since the missiles boat shield tank, you can fit tank and damage mods, while on the turrets ships you must choose between tank and gank.
Grarr Bexx	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:46:00 - [19] I think you need to go play Team Fortress 2 if you want to use such a weapon. Projected AOE weapons have no place in this game, besides the fire-and-forget Bombs and harmless Remote ECM Burst.
Irn Bruce	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:48:00 - [20] sigh H&K GMG grenade launcher muzzle velocity = 241 m/s Starstreak HVM Surface to air missile velocity = Mach 3.5 (1050m/s) How would a grenade launcher supposedly result in quicker flight times?

Nebulous Minmatar Salvage Junkies	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:54:00 - [21] Originally by: necrosia demora a missile boat against a similar skilled turret user in siilar size ships isnt going to win alone This comment is full of lol. For arguements sake lets take the sacrilege as an example, now name me another HAC that uses turrets that a Sacrilege could not beat 1v1? Drake can beat any other BC. Raven can beat any other BS. Damnation can beat any other command ship. Want me to go on? --------------------------------------------------------
Sith LordX	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:54:00 - [22] Originally by: Irn Bruce sigh H&K GMG grenade launcher muzzle velocity = 241 m/s Starstreak HVM Surface to air missile velocity = Mach 3.5 (1050m/s) How would a grenade launcher supposedly result in quicker flight times? Railguns can fire large projectiles at mach 10+. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1q_rRicAwI Even today we have railguns. Fire grenades from these.
necrosia demora	Posted - 2009.10.09 16:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Grarr Bexx I think you need to go play Team Fortress 2 if you want to use such a weapon. Projected AOE weapons have no place in this game, besides the fire-and-forget Bombs and harmless Remote ECM Burst. this is not a projected aoe weapon. and my post has nothing in any way to suggest it. look at the videos. you see much aoe going on. Originally by: Irn Bruce sigh H&K GMG grenade launcher muzzle velocity = 241 m/s Starstreak HVM Surface to air missile velocity = Mach 3.5 (1050m/s) How would a grenade launcher supposedly result in quicker flight times? i made no suggestion of quicker flight times just refire rate at the expence of range. the goal being you get more hits on the target instead of waiting long periods for a round to hit or for the target to jump out.
Sith LordX	Posted - 2009.10.09 17:00:00 - [24] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OqlTXwLG40 Railguns on future weapons.
necrosia demora	Posted - 2009.10.09 17:08:00 - [25] Originally by: Sith LordX http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OqlTXwLG40 Railguns on future weapons. already in game and nothing to do with grenade launchers. infact rails dont even need an explosive charge
Irn Bruce	Posted - 2009.10.10 03:10:00 - [26] Originally by: necrosia demora i made no suggestion of quicker flight times just refire rate at the expence of range. the goal being you get more hits on the target instead of waiting long periods for a round to hit or for the target to jump out. Well then you've totally misunderstood the issue missiles have. A high volley damage is actually a positive thing. The issue with missiles is that in large fleet fights, where the opposing sides are sniping from long ranges, is that there are often so many ships involved that the primary gets instapopped by the turreted weapons before the missiles arrive at their target, thereby making missiles redundant. Of course, all that actually means is that missiles are the wrong weapon to use in that kind of engagement. Basically, missiles are fine as they are. They're effective against some targets in some situations, not so effective against other targets in other situations. Just like any other weapon.


Pages: [1] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.