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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.10.11 06:41:00 -
[1]
These screenshots demonstrate everything that is right and wrong with EvE Online.
Before I explain, allow me to make two introductions.
Logit Probit is a scumbag who ninja-salvages other players' missions near a highsec mission hub. He's a parasite and a griefer. On top of that, he doesn't honor ransoms. He runs an association of similar players, who choose not to incorporate mainly because it makes retaliation difficult.
I'm a 29-year-old Ph.D student at a midwestern American university. I'm married, have a doberman puppy, love to ride my motorcycle, and I help my landlady take out her garbage. I'm a researcher in the areas game theoretics and mass behavior, and I love playing EvE Online.
If you are a mission-runner, Logit deserves your scorn. However, give me a chance to convince you that Logit is your best friend at the same time he's the biggest pain in your backside.
As CCP is well aware, EvE is great because it's a sandbox. The lack of constraints on us in-game allow numerous ôsteady statesö of group behavior to arise. In fact, there are so many different behavioral equilibria that it is difficult for any one player to experience more than a few of them. Even within one ôprofessionö, you will see different tactics in different regions, even if the strategies are the same. Mining ops in one area will be organized differently than ops in another area; FCs in the north operate a little differently than Russian FCs.
Multiple norms of behavior allow the events to occur that make EvE amazing.
Armageddon single-handedly destroys a 40-man highsec mining fleet with a surprise suicide attack. Trusted broker's conscience gets the best of him; commandeers stolen unique ship and returns it to the player it was stolen from. Bank CEO absconds with hundreds of billions. Legendary alliance destroyed by espionage.
In other words, EvE is great because the unexpected occurs.
There have been other games like EvE, sandbox games that were great, but were ruined because well-intentioned changes rippled through them, destroying behavioral equilibria. A classic example was the addition of rare tools into Star Wars Galaxies that could prevent gear from decaying to the point where they were unusable. This change was meant to preserve the hard work of some of the game's most dedicated players, and to encourage rare item use in PvP. However, the change disrupted the player-made economy; demand for high-end crafted gear evaporated, incentives to hunt for looted crafting components disappeared, and SWG was soon hemorrhaging 10k subscriptions per month. SWG had unintentionally constrained the variety of fun behaviors and interactions.
While CCP has maintained minimal constraints on behavior, its track record is not perfect. For instance, the introduction of jump freighters has reduced the number of viable behaviors available to those who enjoy the challenge of long-range, heavy-volume commerce. Soon, a comprehensive set of structural constraints will be introduced into 0.0. While the changes may turn out for the best, it is a fact that increased constraints reduce the possible number of behavioral equilibria.
In other words, with more rules, the unexpected becomes less so.
On the 4th CSM, I'll dedicate full effort to exploring the unintended consequences of the big changes that are coming to EvE.
Logit Probit may be a horrible bastard, but I'll be on my best behavior, and I'll do everything I can to preserve that sweet spot in EvE where the learning curve is just a little too high and the barrier to making horrible mistakes is just a little too low.
Trust me, that spot is where we all want to be.
Now get out there and run some missions.
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Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
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Posted - 2009.10.11 06:44:00 -
[2]
You don't have my vote You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
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Artassaut
Minmatar Oblivion Amalgamated
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Posted - 2009.10.11 07:20:00 -
[3]
I'll vote for you if you go and gank another CSM candidate. --- The Gate: Lol, try targeting me in a fleet fight. The Station: No U. |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.11 08:28:00 -
[4]
Cross-posting FTL.
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Moranda Morland
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Posted - 2009.10.11 08:45:00 -
[5]
Things I learned form this thread:
1. That Logit Probit is afraid to face the people he ****es off so he hides in a NPC corp, very pirateish- YARRR and a few
2. Nerds in real life tend to be asshats on the interwebs
3. Even guys with small PP's can and do get married, I assume you are married to a female if not nothing wrong with it i live in SF it smells of Vaseline around here all the time.
4. That a moped and a motorcycle are the same thing when talking to people that don't know you in real life.
5. That he really considers (or most likely wishes others would) himself a, scumbag, and a horrible bastard.
6. You have no chance in hell to win-
so go pet your puppy hop on the moped with you gay lover and put this CSM silliness outta your pretty little bald head ; )
Kisses Moranda |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.10.11 09:22:00 -
[6]
This thread makes me wish I hadn't already promised my vote to Larkonis
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Pheusia
Gallente The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.10.11 09:23:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Malcanis This thread makes me wish I hadn't already promised my vote to Larkonis
But Mal, you have a lovely alt you keep specifically for all those things you want to do but cant do with you main! Signed, Pheusia |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.10.11 09:24:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Pheusia
Originally by: Malcanis This thread makes me wish I hadn't already promised my vote to Larkonis
But Mal, you have a lovely alt you keep specifically for all those things you want to do but cant do with you main!
That's very true... let's see how this turns out.
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Emily Evil
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Posted - 2009.10.11 09:32:00 -
[9]
So after your first thread in C&P failed you try again here?
fake edit:
Also, those 2 screenshots seem to be the only ones you got.
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Janice Jankowski
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Posted - 2009.10.11 10:40:00 -
[10]
Link to geddon thread?
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Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.10.11 11:12:00 -
[11]
You get my vote ;)
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.10.11 11:41:00 -
[12]
A CSM Manifesto that's well-written?
Almost deserves a vote.
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Yristor
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Posted - 2009.10.11 12:05:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Yristor on 11/10/2009 12:07:43 This is a far better post than your ill thought out attempt to get C&P on your side.
Allowing multiple behavior patterns to evolve and flourish is a worthy goal, and keeping Eve from becoming a WoW-style themepark MMO should always be encouraged (my interest in that game died when Blizzard banned players from jumping on rooftops to PVP in neutral towns, which had lead to encounters that were far more thrilling than any BG).
However, simply being "anti-rules" doesn't lead to the full spectrum of potentially interesting behavior emerging, because a certain amount of rules are necessary for complexity to flourish. Eve's economy is primitive - bartering and a simple marketplace system. Because institutions like the Eve Bank and any stock/bond offering have to store their ISK with the directors having access, the potential for fraud or theft limits the willingness of the public to do business with them. A character's reputation is the only safeguard, and that's been proven over and over again to not be an effective deterrent. A stronger financial sector could allow banks or investors to finance corp wars so that a smaller alliance would have a chance against a currently dominant one, offer different types of insurance, have more bond and stock offerings from industrial corps, etc. A futures market (puts and calls) would allow far more interesting options for manufacturing (and market manipulation). Contracts could be enforced by allowing the betrayed party to sell or offer the right to a certain number of characters or merc corps to have kill rights on the contract breaker up until the insured value of destroyed ships equals the amount lost. Mercs could bid on contracts to pod a certain number of players from a target corp, etc.
There has to be a way to allow the corp theft and betrayals that we all love, while still giving some greater security to these sort of interesting interactions. I'd recommend creating a second corp type ("financial") with a different rule set allowing for greater security but also limiting its options (so that it couldn't simultaneously be a merc corp for example).
Further complexity would come from things like putting rare types of asteroid needed for planet development ONLY in a few systems in lowsec (and moving all Ice and "Dense", "Condensed" etc. asteroids to the rest of lowsec)... risk vs. reward.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.11 12:34:00 -
[14]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 11/10/2009 12:43:38
Actually, a radical anti-carebear elected to the CSM will do less damage than one that presents himself to be "more balanced". For this reason alone I encourage all the carebear haters and "OMG iM s0 uB3r h4RdcOrE" PVPers to vote for this guy. There's nothing like an idiot elected by idiots to represent them.
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Expert Troll
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Posted - 2009.10.11 12:39:00 -
[15]
Wait a second, you call people ultra carebears and gank people, pvp, pew pew, etc etc.
But you hide in NPC corp where you can't be war decced?
I was trying to find a word to describe it, so I looked in the dictionary, found your picture under hypocrite.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.10.11 12:44:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Logit Probit
Quote: Logit Probit is a scumbag who ninja-salvages other players' missions near a highsec mission hub. He's a parasite and a griefer. On top of that, he doesn't honor ransoms. He runs an association of similar players, who choose not to incorporate mainly because it makes retaliation difficult.
Quote: Logit Probit may be a horrible bastard, but I'll be on my best behavior.
Holy Dissociative identity disorder Batman.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Julius Rigel
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Posted - 2009.10.11 12:49:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Expert Troll Wait a second, you call people ultra carebears and gank people, pvp, pew pew, etc etc.
But you hide in NPC corp where you can't be war decced?
I was trying to find a word to describe it, so I looked in the dictionary, found your picture under hypocrite.
That's odd, I could have sworn the caption read "Pragmatic" not "Hypocrite".
So Logit, since you so politely invade my Sunday brunch and forum browsing, I shall ask you a question regarding your plans for your term.
What do you plan on doing to get rid of this silly charade? What's that? None? Ok, well I'll see you later then. o/
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McFly
C0LDFIRE
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Posted - 2009.10.11 15:28:00 -
[18]
sorry probit, but ur just as ***** as those you prey on, if you want any support get out of the npc corp and quit preying on Dyslexic, PTS afflicted carebears.
Disclaimer: I dont like carebears, but hiding in an NPC Corp to avoid the wrath of said carebears takes the cake imho.
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.10.11 16:55:00 -
[19]
I know my ninja-salvaging and carebear-killing isn't going to win me any support amongst the carebear community, and my lack of E-honor is going to turn off lowsec-pirates-with-a-hint-of-RP types.
I'm not a PvPer. I'm a salvager, and not a nice one. As far as exposing myself to retaliatory war decs, I've been there and done that, and it while it's all good and fun, it prevents us from doing what we like to do in-game.
The fact is that anyone who I or my mates have ever destroyed has deserved to lose their ship.
Rule #1 of EvE is: Don't aggress in a ship you aren't prepared to lose.
There are multiple, multiple ways to make ninja-salvagers go away; warping out, shooting wrecks, or leaving and getting in an actual PvP ship. Carebears that shoot salvagers expecting an easy kill or no retaliation are making a mistake, and I'm more than happy to take that to the bank. It's part of the game.
As far as the idea that some of these carebears have something wrong with them and should be left alone, you said it, I didn't. The internet is full of characters and it's not my job to pre-screen people for emotional problems before I return fire. If you don't think someone melting down in local over some pixels is funny, well, maybe EvE isn't the place for you.
Finally, I find the idea that people can't separate their in-game persona from their RL behavior disturbing. Personally, when I see a vehicle wreck in real life, I don't run up to it and break off a chunk, hoping the owner will then pick a fight with me over it so I can punch him in the face and take his wallet too, and I wouldn't do that even if the rules of society allowed for it.
I'd like to keep EvE fun for everyone, not just myself. Part of that is making sure the implemention of well-meant changes doesn't ripple throughout the game environment, causing unintentional problems. I've got lots of experience modeling just those types of problems, and I hope that the EvE community will give me a chance to contribute what I can. It would be the least I can do, and perhaps a fitting penance for my parasitical in-game activities.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:00:00 -
[20]
Is there a reason why you keep spamming the forums with "Elect me plox!1!" threads?
Couldn't you just start one and stick to it?
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:00:00 -
[21]
CSM...... lol
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:03:00 -
[22]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 spamming the forums
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:06:00 -
[23]
What can I tell ya. Troll threads attract troll posts.
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:10:00 -
[24]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 What can I tell ya. Troll threads attract troll posts.
nosce te ipsum
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:25:00 -
[25]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 11/10/2009 17:28:13
Wow, that IS impressive! You know Latin. But, what does that have to do with you cross-posting threads on the same topic? Is it necessary?
And a carebear hater who's a carebear himself uttering that phrase is... simply ironic.
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:32:00 -
[26]
This question will determine who gets my vote; Are you for or against the stardrive on certain ships (t3 mainly) Blane Xero > Lance is at -0.9 sec status with a 1 million bounty. LAnce is also amarrian. Thats 3 evil points |
Kawea
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:34:00 -
[27]
There is something else I'm finding interesting about this guy. He states there that he is:
Originally by: Logit Probit ...
I'm a researcher in the areas game theoretics and mass behavior, and I love playing EvE Online.
...
I remember reading about some other researcher, who actually went as far as creating a paper based on his jerky and griefing behavior in an online game (City of Heroes or whatever that game was).
It appears to me, that some of these social sciences 'researchers' take great interest in acting in the most disruptive way they can come up with, in the name of their 'research'.
I guess that is just as good an excuse to being a jerk as any other.
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:38:00 -
[28]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Wow, that IS impressive! You know Latin. But, what does that have to do with you cross-posting threads on the same topic? Is it necessary?
And a carebear uttering that phrase is... simply ironic.
Pretty sure C&P and EvE-O General are separate audiences, at least for the most part.
Also, of course, I don't know Latin. I've just seen The Matrix. And I meant it as a complement, since you indeed seem aware of your nature.
I'll be chilling here all day, whilst I watch football. Nice to see Culpepper on the field again, I always enjoyed watching him when he was throwing to Carter and Moss, even though I've never really been a Vikings fan.
Anyway, Matrix Skye, let me ask. What is it about me specifically that attracts you to my threads? Is it my desire for attention? My love of tears? The fact that I hide in highsec, in a noob corp? Arrogance? Hubris? A crappy portrait/stupid name? Did I blow up your alt? Now is the time to reveal your beef! Drama ahead!
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:45:00 -
[29]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 11/10/2009 17:45:43
Originally by: Logit Probit Anyway, Matrix Skye, let me ask. What is it about me specifically that attracts you to my threads? Is it my desire for attention?
Yes. Quote: My love of tears?
Yes. Quote: The fact that I hide in highsec, in a noob corp?
Yes. I find this particularly hypocritical and thus, interesting. Quote: Arrogance?
Yes. Quote: Hubris?
Yes. Quote: A crappy portrait/stupid name?
No. Quote: Did I blow up your alt?
I don't think so. Quote: Now is the time to reveal your beef! Drama ahead!
No beef. I just like calling out bull**** when I see it. Consider it MY research :).
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:49:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Logit Probit The fact is that anyone who I or my mates have ever destroyed has deserved to lose their ship.
Everyone from Charles Manson to Jack the Ripper convinced themselves their victims deserved it too. The ability for some people to rationalize like that allows them to do terrible things and not see themselves for what they are.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:59:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Originally by: Logit Probit The fact is that anyone who I or my mates have ever destroyed has deserved to lose their ship.
Everyone from Charles Manson to Jack the Ripper convinced themselves their victims deserved it too. The ability for some people to rationalize like that allows them to do terrible things and not see themselves for what they are.
Um...
IT'S A VIDEO GAME
Not denying I'm mean in the game though.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.10.11 18:12:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Logit Probit
Um...
IT'S A VIDEO GAME
Not denying I'm mean in the game though.
Why would you decide to be 'mean' in a game though? Is it safe to assume you'd act that way in real life if you could get away with it as easily, and have these desires and urges in everyday life, but hold them back and wear a mask simply because you fear your true self being revealed?
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Discrodia
Gallente Unknown-Entity Maru Ka'ge
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Posted - 2009.10.11 18:17:00 -
[33]
Yea no.... ________________________________________________ HELP! CCP HAS NERFED MY SIG! ALSO CAPLOCKS IS FUN! While we're at it I need to bake muffins ^_^ |
Governor LePetomane
Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions
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Posted - 2009.10.11 18:50:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Originally by: Logit Probit
Um...
IT'S A VIDEO GAME
Not denying I'm mean in the game though.
Why would you decide to be 'mean' in a game though? Is it safe to assume you'd act that way in real life if you could get away with it as easily, and have these desires and urges in everyday life, but hold them back and wear a mask simply because you fear your true self being revealed?
1. The NPC bad guys in this game aren't particularly convincing. If the sandbox is to function in any interesting way, somebody has to play the role of the antagonist.
2. The barrier to entry for being a baddie in Eve in terms of moral turpitude really isn't that high. Should one also feel bad about beating somebody at chess?
3. All that said though, from having read many of Logit's posts here and used those to take some (admittedly internet-distorted; this forum in particular brings out the worst in people) measure of his personality, I'm prepared to allow that the guy behind the toon may well actually be a jerk of some description or another.
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Witcher
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Posted - 2009.10.11 19:05:00 -
[35]
you get my vote
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Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar Pragmatics
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Posted - 2009.10.11 19:34:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Expert Troll I was trying to find a word to describe it, so I looked in the dictionary, found your picture under hypocrite.
I suggest that you get a dictionary that doesn't have pictures in it. Something a trifle more advanced than "A is for Apple".
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Herpes Sweatrash
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Posted - 2009.10.11 19:37:00 -
[37]
land lady is his mom and logit proctal lives in the basement
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ZCorp
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.10.11 20:34:00 -
[38]
I like your manifesto. You have my vote!
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.10.12 00:21:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Emily Spankratchet Vote Logit! He may be a hypocrite, but he's probably not an idiot. Which is probably the exact opposite of some of the other candidates I've seen.
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Durbin Watson
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Posted - 2009.10.12 15:18:00 -
[40]
Similar things have happened in many other decent games to what is described in the OP, tbh. Ultima Online for example
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Hamshoe
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Posted - 2009.10.12 16:29:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Logit Probit As far as exposing myself to retaliatory war decs, I've been there and done that, and it while it's all good and fun, it prevents us from doing what we like to do in-game.
[SNIP]
Originally by: Logit Probit I'd like to keep EvE fun for everyone, not just myself.
I'm gonna call shennanigans on you right here. You're utterly FoS. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse? |
Isurus Paucus
Omicron Resource Technologies Limited
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Posted - 2009.10.12 18:48:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Kawea I remember reading about some other researcher, who actually went as far as creating a paper based on his jerky and griefing behavior in an online game (City of Heroes or whatever that game was).
It appears to me, that some of these social sciences 'researchers' take great interest in acting in the most disruptive way they can come up with, in the name of their 'research'.
I guess that is just as good an excuse to being a jerk as any other.
Actually, if you read the study that came out of that particular incident (guy's name is David Myers), it is quite fascinating. The idea was to examine how digital cultures in online games developed moral codes that were actually contrary to developer intent and establish whether they were valid as something of a test lab for sociologists. In that particular case, it wasn't particularly that Twixt was a bastard (which he was), but rather that CoH's players had developed a code of ethics around PvP that were not by design and would be considered completely ridiculous in other games (The standard Eve player would laugh in your face if you complained about half the stuff he did). In essence, he simply used the game engine as designed and was nearly unstoppable as the social boundary in-game was such that no one on the other side of it stood a chance.
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.10.12 18:53:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Isurus Paucus (The standard Eve player would laugh in your face if you complained about half the stuff he did). In essence, he simply used the game engine as designed and was nearly unstoppable as the social boundary in-game was such that no one on the other side of it stood a chance.
Yes. I have an idea - You shoot me in lowsec. You gain GCC. I teleport you to highsec. I win.
That is exactly what he did. Lamest excuse for a pvper ever. Blane Xero > Lance is at -0.9 sec status with a 1 million bounty. LAnce is also amarrian. Thats 3 evil points |
Isurus Paucus
Omicron Resource Technologies Limited
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Posted - 2009.10.12 19:12:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Isurus Paucus on 12/10/2009 19:16:59 Edited by: Isurus Paucus on 12/10/2009 19:14:15
Originally by: Lance Fighter
Yes. I have an idea - You shoot me in lowsec. You gain GCC. I teleport you to highsec. I win.
That is exactly what he did. Lamest excuse for a pvper ever.
Note I said "half." While that particular tactic wasn't exactly high skill, it was permitted by game mechanic. A better example of why he was hated would be more akin to you ratting in 0.0, me jumping in and killing you without so much as a hello, and you complaining that I was somehow outside of acceptable behavior. As I understand it, CoH had developed a gentleman's code for the PvP area that actually made PvP unacceptable without both parties agreeing to it. Myers made waves by ignoring that particular bit of the code and sticking to the developers' stated reason for the area's existence.
*edit* While I think the OP is a bit of a bastard online (and I personally think that how you conduct yourself online says a lot about you in RL, at least on some level), he at least puts forward a coherent argument, which is more than can be said of others. If his qualifications aren't bull****, he's probably the kind of person that SHOULD be involved in examining game mechanics changes.
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.10.12 19:18:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Isurus Paucus Edited by: Isurus Paucus on 12/10/2009 19:14:15
Originally by: Lance Fighter
Yes. I have an idea - You shoot me in lowsec. You gain GCC. I teleport you to highsec. I win.
That is exactly what he did. Lamest excuse for a pvper ever.
Note I said "half." While that particular tactic wasn't exactly high skill, it was permitted by game mechanic. A better example of why he was hated would be more akin to you ratting in 0.0, me jumping in and killing you without so much as a hello, and you complaining that I was somehow outside of acceptable behavior. As I understand it, CoH had developed a gentleman's code for the PvP area that actually made PvP unacceptable without both parties agreeing to it. Myers made waves by ignoring that particular bit of the code and sticking to the developers' stated reason for the area's existence.
THE GUY DIDNT PVP. He teleported people into CoH's version of concord. It would be more akin to someone with a -10 sec status getting thrown into a 1.0 system.. but even that isnt a fair comparison. It would be like throwing someone with GCC into highsec.. OHWAIT. I just ****ing used that analogy. Because its right.
I read the article, and it basically is him being a troll. Sure, game mechanics allow it.. but thats because nobody abused it like he did. If more people did that, than you can surely bet that it wouldnt be a game mechanic anymore. Blane Xero > Lance is at -0.9 sec status with a 1 million bounty. LAnce is also amarrian. Thats 3 evil points |
Isurus Paucus
Omicron Resource Technologies Limited
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Posted - 2009.10.12 19:31:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Lance Fighter
THE GUY DIDNT PVP. He teleported people into CoH's version of concord. It would be more akin to someone with a -10 sec status getting thrown into a 1.0 system.. but even that isnt a fair comparison. It would be like throwing someone with GCC into highsec.. OHWAIT. I just ****ing used that analogy. Because its right.
I read the article, and it basically is him being a troll. Sure, game mechanics allow it.. but thats because nobody abused it like he did. If more people did that, than you can surely bet that it wouldnt be a game mechanic anymore.
Screw the article. It's trash. Read the study itself. http://www.masscomm.loyno.edu/~dmyers/F99%20classes/Myers_PlayPunishment_031508.doc. He DID PvP quite a bit. Droning was only one of the things he did.
Anyway, my point wasn't to argue over whether or not Myer could PvP, but rather to state that online games are great places for sociological research because it's less damaging to disrupt the social structure than say, finding some isolated tribe and getting them all addicted to ****** for study purposes.
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.10.12 19:34:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Isurus Paucus
Originally by: Lance Fighter
THE GUY DIDNT PVP. He teleported people into CoH's version of concord. It would be more akin to someone with a -10 sec status getting thrown into a 1.0 system.. but even that isnt a fair comparison. It would be like throwing someone with GCC into highsec.. OHWAIT. I just ****ing used that analogy. Because its right.
I read the article, and it basically is him being a troll. Sure, game mechanics allow it.. but thats because nobody abused it like he did. If more people did that, than you can surely bet that it wouldnt be a game mechanic anymore.
Screw the article. It's trash. Read the study itself. http://www.masscomm.loyno.edu/~dmyers/F99%20classes/Myers_PlayPunishment_031508.doc. He DID PvP quite a bit. Droning was only one of the things he did.
Anyway, my point wasn't to argue over whether or not Myer could PvP, but rather to state that online games are great places for sociological research because it's less damaging to disrupt the social structure than say, finding some isolated tribe and getting them all addicted to ****** for study purposes.
Miscommunication here. In the world of intellect, what you just linked is called an 'article'. In the world of the common man, the crappy news stories on websites are often called 'article's as well.
Blane Xero > Lance is at -0.9 sec status with a 1 million bounty. LAnce is also amarrian. Thats 3 evil points |
Captain Tardbar
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 20:21:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Captain Tardbar on 12/10/2009 20:22:42
Originally by: Manu Hermanus You don't have my vote
Yeah. He is doing an Appeal to Authority fallacy by appealing to his personal position as a PHD nice guy (I suppose that is the opposite of an ad hominem attack).
Yeah ninja salvaging might be a nasty thing to do, but I don't give a damn if you're a PHD, Nobel Prize winner, or a homeless drug addict with an internet connection who sells the organs of newborne puppies to pay for his GTC...
I just don't like people who claim to be better than other people because most of the time on the internet... Its a LIE.
Either way the OP makes me want to go Ninja Salvaging after reading that wall.
|
Lance Fighter
Amarr
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 20:26:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Captain Tardbar I don't give a damn if you're a Nobel Prize winner
confirming this. Blane Xero > Lance is at -0.9 sec status with a 1 million bounty. LAnce is also amarrian. Thats 3 evil points |
Logit Probit
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 21:06:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Captain Tardbar Edited by: Captain Tardbar on 12/10/2009 20:22:42
Originally by: Manu Hermanus You don't have my vote
Yeah. He is doing an Appeal to Authority fallacy by appealing to his personal position as a PHD nice guy (I suppose that is the opposite of an ad hominem attack).
Yeah ninja salvaging might be a nasty thing to do, but I don't give a damn if you're a PHD, Nobel Prize winner, or a homeless drug addict with an internet connection who sells the organs of newborne puppies to pay for his GTC...
I just don't like people who claim to be better than other people because most of the time on the internet... Its a LIE.
Either way the OP makes me want to go Ninja Salvaging after reading that wall.
The "Appeal to Authority" fallacy is when someone claims that they are correct in an argument because they are an authority.
I just indicated that as someone who researches behavior, EvE Online holds a lot of appeal for me. I also suggested that I would have something constructive to add to the CSM; experience modeling behavior systems. AT NO TIME did I announce I was right about some argument simply because I am in graduate school.
I presented so many pieces of evidence regarding my in-game activities that could be used to argue that I am a bad guy. Great job not using any of those in your crappy argument.
|
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Captain Tardbar
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 21:25:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Logit Probit
Originally by: Captain Tardbar Edited by: Captain Tardbar on 12/10/2009 20:22:42
Originally by: Manu Hermanus You don't have my vote
Yeah. He is doing an Appeal to Authority fallacy by appealing to his personal position as a PHD nice guy (I suppose that is the opposite of an ad hominem attack).
Yeah ninja salvaging might be a nasty thing to do, but I don't give a damn if you're a PHD, Nobel Prize winner, or a homeless drug addict with an internet connection who sells the organs of newborne puppies to pay for his GTC...
I just don't like people who claim to be better than other people because most of the time on the internet... Its a LIE.
Either way the OP makes me want to go Ninja Salvaging after reading that wall.
The "Appeal to Authority" fallacy is when someone claims that they are correct in an argument because they are an authority.
I just indicated that as someone who researches behavior, EvE Online holds a lot of appeal for me. I also suggested that I would have something constructive to add to the CSM; experience modeling behavior systems. AT NO TIME did I announce I was right about some argument simply because I am in graduate school.
I presented so many pieces of evidence regarding my in-game activities that could be used to argue that I am a bad guy. Great job not using any of those in your crappy argument.
Then why bring it up? As you have something to prove your character. I know plenty of people who are saints and good guys in real life but do pretty mean things in online games.
And I know anti-social people who don't talk or lift a finger who are saints online so it cuts both ways.
That doesn't make them bad people because no one calls a quarter back who tackles someone extra rough a bad person. Its part of the game.
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Logit Probit
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 21:43:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Captain Tardbar
Originally by: Logit Probit
Originally by: Captain Tardbar Edited by: Captain Tardbar on 12/10/2009 20:22:42
Originally by: Manu Hermanus You don't have my vote
Yeah. He is doing an Appeal to Authority fallacy by appealing to his personal position as a PHD nice guy (I suppose that is the opposite of an ad hominem attack).
Yeah ninja salvaging might be a nasty thing to do, but I don't give a damn if you're a PHD, Nobel Prize winner, or a homeless drug addict with an internet connection who sells the organs of newborne puppies to pay for his GTC...
I just don't like people who claim to be better than other people because most of the time on the internet... Its a LIE.
Either way the OP makes me want to go Ninja Salvaging after reading that wall.
The "Appeal to Authority" fallacy is when someone claims that they are correct in an argument because they are an authority.
I just indicated that as someone who researches behavior, EvE Online holds a lot of appeal for me. I also suggested that I would have something constructive to add to the CSM; experience modeling behavior systems. AT NO TIME did I announce I was right about some argument simply because I am in graduate school.
I presented so many pieces of evidence regarding my in-game activities that could be used to argue that I am a bad guy. Great job not using any of those in your crappy argument.
Then why bring it up? As you have something to prove your character. I know plenty of people who are saints and good guys in real life but do pretty mean things in online games.
And I know anti-social people who don't talk or lift a finger who are saints online so it cuts both ways.
That doesn't make them bad people because no one calls a quarter back who tackles someone extra rough a bad person. Its part of the game.
You've lost me, but thanks for playing
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Logit Probit
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 22:25:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Captain Tardbar I don't give a damn if you're a PHD, Nobel Prize winner, or a homeless drug addict with an internet connection who sells the organs of newborne puppies to pay for his GTC...
I just don't like people who claim to be better than other people because most of the time on the internet... Its a LIE.
When CCP posts all the real names of the candidates next month, a simple search on my name will bring up my research blog, if you wish to be bored senseless.
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Bongo Debbie
Minmatar Sekret Kool Klubb
|
Posted - 2009.10.13 15:09:00 -
[54]
I'm not sure what voice of the people you are intending to represent, but your only intention with your fail post in C+P was to keep your macrogame (griefing multibillion pve fits easily) from getting nerfed.
Also, get new ss dude.
I have a more effective strategy: Vote Lady Spank for CSM or 1000 puppies will meet with an unfortunate 'accident' irl (ingame) ----
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Julius Rigel
|
Posted - 2009.10.13 16:18:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Logit Probit my research blog
Ooh. Perhaps if I like it I'll sell you my vote for... well... make me an offer!
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Captain Tardbar
|
Posted - 2009.10.13 16:24:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Julius Rigel
Originally by: Logit Probit my research blog
Ooh. Perhaps if I like it I'll sell you my vote for... well... make me an offer!
Actually... If someone sends 10 million ISK my way I'll be more agreeable to their credentials.
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Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.10.13 16:43:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/10/2009 16:45:01 Well, thanks to Logit Probit's efforts, at least one person emoraged in the Scope so much he went on to immediately prove that not only he is a clueless newbie (2008 or so player, so take "newbie" as "hopeless noob", not as "new player") with a attitude problem, but wishes to remain a clueless newbie with a attitude problem.
A short excerpt from chat: "Don't shoot ninja looters, they're just trying to get you to aggro them so they can kill your ship" "but he was stealing my loot" "Look, it's done to gank people, if you shoot ninja looters they will gank you" "but he was stealing my loot" "If you shoot you will not only lose your loot but your ship" "but he was stealing my loot" "..." "my loot" Epic.
For that, he gets my vote.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Gunnanmon
Gallente Imperial Syndicate Forces The Laughing Men
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Posted - 2009.10.13 18:34:00 -
[58]
ffs Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
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VicturusTeSaluto
Metafarmers MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.10.13 18:43:00 -
[59]
npc corp, doesn't honor ransoms?
riiiiiight. Like anyone wants to vote for you.
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.10.13 20:40:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Bongo Debbie I'm not sure what voice of the people you are intending to represent, but your only intention with your fail post in C+P was to keep your macrogame (griefing multibillion pve fits easily) from getting nerfed.
Also, get new ss dude.
I have a more effective strategy: Vote Lady Spank for CSM or 1000 puppies will meet with an unfortunate 'accident' irl (ingame)
You're on to me.
Also, I have many, many screenshots, but I'm saving them for the next phase of my campaign; "Send Logit to Iceland, Angry Mission Runners; You've Earned It".
Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto npc corp, doesn't honor ransoms?
riiiiiight. Like anyone wants to vote for you.
The nice thing about EvE is that I don't have to care about your norms, because there are plenty of others to choose from. I'd prefer to keep EvE that way.
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Hamshoe
|
Posted - 2009.10.13 20:52:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Logit Probit [The nice thing about EvE is that I don't have to care about your norms, because there are plenty of others to choose from.
Pity for you that the Sociopaths are already so well represented.
You'll need to find something to set yourself apart. |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
|
Posted - 2009.10.13 23:07:00 -
[62]
If you promise to dedicate a significant portion of your CSM time to bringing delayed Local to 0.0 you've got my vote. ...
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2009.10.14 00:32:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 14/10/2009 00:32:00
Originally by: Governor LePetomane Should one also feel bad about beating somebody at chess?
When people sit down to play a game of chess it's an understood and agreed upon competition. People aren't suddenly challenged to chess games while they try to go about their daily business, and losing in chess more often than not doesn't cause someone to lose anything of any value.
It can't be compared to causing misery to random people in a video game simply because it satisfies them on some primitive level. I'm not making a giant moral judgement about people who engage in such behavior, but lets be honest; They are doing it because they enjoy making others suffer. They are sadists by every definition. They should at least have the balls to admit that instead of deluding themselves and others.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Governor LePetomane
Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions
|
Posted - 2009.10.14 01:25:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 14/10/2009 00:32:00
Originally by: Governor LePetomane Should one also feel bad about beating somebody at chess?
When people sit down to play a game of chess it's an understood and agreed upon competition.
Stop. This is different from undocking in Eve how, exactly? You might tell yourself that you "should" be immune to unexpected aggression, but that certainly doesn't mean you are; and I think most people understand that at some point. If they don't, that's a failure on their part.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
|
Posted - 2009.10.14 13:47:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Governor LePetomane
Originally by: Professor Tarantula Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 14/10/2009 00:32:00
Originally by: Governor LePetomane Should one also feel bad about beating somebody at chess?
When people sit down to play a game of chess it's an understood and agreed upon competition.
Stop. This is different from undocking in Eve how, exactly? You might tell yourself that you "should" be immune to unexpected aggression, but that certainly doesn't mean you are; and I think most people understand that at some point. If they don't, that's a failure on their part.
Back to the drawing board time for the professor. ...
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2009.10.14 14:09:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Governor LePetomane
Originally by: Professor Tarantula Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 14/10/2009 00:32:00
Originally by: Governor LePetomane Should one also feel bad about beating somebody at chess?
When people sit down to play a game of chess it's an understood and agreed upon competition.
Stop. This is different from undocking in Eve how, exactly? You might tell yourself that you "should" be immune to unexpected aggression, but that certainly doesn't mean you are; and I think most people understand that at some point. If they don't, that's a failure on their part.
Go. Everytime we leave our house in real life we accept the possibility that we could be shot by a mugger or killed by some psychopath for no reason at all, so us having prior knowledge of the chance makes the people who do it justified somehow?
I'm not saying people should be immune or anything, don't try to twist my words. All i'm saying is the people who engage in such behavior should be honest with themselves and others about why they do what they do, instead of creating delusions and justifications that allow them to see themselves as righteous while they go about cruel and sadistic behavior.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Imertu Solientai
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.10.14 14:18:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Imertu Solientai on 14/10/2009 14:25:03
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Originally by: Logit Probit The fact is that anyone who I or my mates have ever destroyed has deserved to lose their ship.
Everyone from Charles Manson to Jack the Ripper convinced themselves their victims deserved it too. The ability for some people to rationalize like that allows them to do terrible things and not see themselves for what they are.
NOTE TO SELF:
Next time you get mugged, press CTRL+Q and wake up safe in the REALÖ world.
EDIT:
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Originally by: Governor LePetomane
Originally by: Professor Tarantula Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 14/10/2009 00:32:00
Originally by: Governor LePetomane Should one also feel bad about beating somebody at chess?
When people sit down to play a game of chess it's an understood and agreed upon competition.
Stop. This is different from undocking in Eve how, exactly? You might tell yourself that you "should" be immune to unexpected aggression, but that certainly doesn't mean you are; and I think most people understand that at some point. If they don't, that's a failure on their part.
Go. Everytime we leave our house in real life we accept the possibility that we could be shot by a mugger or killed by some psychopath for no reason at all, so us having prior knowledge of the chance makes the people who do it justified somehow?
I'm not saying people should be immune or anything, don't try to twist my words. All i'm saying is the people who engage in such behavior should be honest with themselves and others about why they do what they do, instead of creating delusions and justifications that allow them to see themselves as righteous while they go about cruel and sadistic behavior.
Seriously, please just re-read everything you have posted in this thread and think about it for a minute. You are saying that when you log on to a Counterstrike server you should be left alone because you aren't asking to be shot? You are saying that when you log on to a COMBAT GAME, you haven't actually agreed to engage in COMBAT? EVE, by every definition is a combat game. Why do you think practically every video of the game has ships blowing each other up?
How would you like it if on your next mission the NPCs turned around and said "Actually, we don't want to be shot. Go away." and jammed all your weapons? Consider that, then consider whether EVE is the game for you.
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Bongo Debbie
Minmatar Sekret Kool Klubb
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Posted - 2009.10.14 14:19:00 -
[68]
Every time you read a reply on the forums you run the risk of catching stupid.
Dumb people on the forums are therefore automatically griefers and therefore obviously both mentally unstable and evil psychotics in real life. CCP should pass on these players details to the proper authorities so they can be put in mental institutes for the criminally insane. ----
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.10.14 14:21:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Go. Everytime we leave our house in real life we accept the possibility that we could be shot by a mugger or killed by some psychopath for no reason at all, so us having prior knowledge of the chance makes the people who do it justified somehow?
I'm not saying people should be immune or anything, don't try to twist my words. All i'm saying is the people who engage in such behavior should be honest with themselves and others about why they do what they do, instead of creating delusions and justifications that allow them to see themselves as righteous while they go about cruel and sadistic behavior.
In themepark games people roleplay being EvilÖ by getting different coloured armour and maybe some better ofensive magic. You may get a different cut-scene or too as well.
In EvE, people roleplay being evil by doing evil things. In-game.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.10.14 14:40:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Malcanis In EvE, people roleplay being evil by doing evil things. In-game.
But you won't see good people deciding to 'roleplay' as evil and cause others misery in a video game. You'll just see people who have those desires but can't act out on them in real life. Good people are good, in every circumstance you put them in.
They might want to think everyone is like them, and because a monkey can be sadistic too it's part of our nature and that makes it ok, but i can tell you that's not the case. Some people are aversed to causing emotional suffering to others, even through a video game.
This is the last time i'm going to repeat this, but my only point is that the people who decide to 'roleplay' evil shouldn't try to claim their victims, chosen at random, deserved it somehow. If you're going to be evil, don't be a ***** about it. You like causing others misery, and that's why you do it.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.10.14 14:54:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula Good people are good, in every circumstance you put them in.
Maybe you never heard of this?
Man, I hope you survive the RL learning experiences you have in front of you. It's probably good you're playing EVE - this way the shock wont be so bad. I'm guessing you're maybe 18 or 19 or perhaps in your early 20s? No-one with much life experience could possibly say what you just said.
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Kitty McKitty
Gallente The Kitty Kitty Corporation
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Posted - 2009.10.14 14:55:00 -
[72]
You can repeat things all you like but you still have a poor understanding of roleplay and what in game behaviour signifies in the attitude of the player.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2009.10.14 15:02:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 14/10/2009 15:05:08
Originally by: Malcanis Maybe you never heard of this?
It goes far beyond your little link there. Check out the Lucifer effect for added madness.
Most people are weak minded. They follow the herd, doing whatever everyone else is doing, easily influenced by someone else, whether it's an authority figure or not. They don't know how to think for themselves.
Not everyone is like that, though.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Hamshoe
|
Posted - 2009.10.14 15:09:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Governor LePetomane Should one also feel bad about beating somebody at chess?
If 500 people are waiting to play chess and you make a point of only playing the kid with the helmet and the mittens pinned to his coat, yes. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse? |
Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar Pragmatics
|
Posted - 2009.10.14 15:20:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula Good people are good, in every circumstance you put them in.
Quote: Most people are weak minded. They follow the herd, doing whatever everyone else is doing, easily influenced by someone else, whether it's an authority figure or not. They don't know how to think for themselves.
And yet, people who do think for themselves can still meet this criteria of "goodness" without an external reference. Are we dealing with some sort of Platonic ideal of goodness, or is it more of a case of deterministic moral universalism?
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Bongo Debbie
Minmatar Sekret Kool Klubb
|
Posted - 2009.10.14 15:33:00 -
[76]
I live a good live vicariously and release my urge to do harm by baking fluffy cupcakes. Transdimensional evil monitors my anguish metastasis through string cell hypertabernacles, thus my dissonance is halved and my resolve pustulated.
In short, im a spazz irl as well as ingame. ----
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2009.10.14 15:38:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Emily Spankratchet Are we dealing with some sort of Platonic ideal of goodness, or is it more of a case of deterministic moral universalism?
Yeah, I believe that subconsciously, or at least on some level, everyone knows 'right from wrong' as it were, they can sense it in every fiber of their being. Carl Jung said all mental illness is due to people refusing to experience genuine suffering. As soon as they start feeling guilt or remorse, it bothers them, and they come up with a different perspective on things that makes them feel better about themselves, but it's a delusion, and that's the point where people start getting out of touch with reality and what they're really doing.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Logit Probit
|
Posted - 2009.10.18 20:50:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Originally by: Emily Spankratchet Are we dealing with some sort of Platonic ideal of goodness, or is it more of a case of deterministic moral universalism?
Yeah, I believe that subconsciously, or at least on some level, everyone knows 'right from wrong' as it were, they can sense it in every fiber of their being. Carl Jung said all mental illness is due to people refusing to experience genuine suffering. As soon as they start feeling guilt or remorse, it bothers them, and they come up with a different perspective on things that makes them feel better about themselves, but it's a delusion, and that's the point where people start getting out of touch with reality and what they're really doing.
There is no significant difference between a player choosing to cross the boundary into lowsec or 0.0, and a player choosing to open fire on a ninja-looter in highsec.
Either way, the player is making a conscious decision to assume risk.
Ninjas are totally "in touch with reality and what they're really doing". They are offering mission runners a chance to engage in PvP on extremely unfavorable terms.
All this talk about good, evil, and mental illness is totally ridiculous.
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Bel Amar
Amarr Children of Anarchy
|
Posted - 2009.10.18 21:11:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula Good people are good, in every circumstance you put them in.
Simply saying something is so, does not in fact make it so
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Valrandir
Elemental Mercury Dystopia Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.10.18 23:12:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Logit Probit These screenshots demonstrate everything that is right and wrong with EvE Online.
Before I explain, allow me to make two introductions.
Logit Probit is a scumbag who ninja-salvages other players' missions near a highsec mission hub. He's a parasite and a griefer. On top of that, he doesn't honor ransoms. He runs an association of similar players, who choose not to incorporate mainly because it makes retaliation difficult.
I'm a 29-year-old Ph.D student at a midwestern American university. I'm married, have a doberman puppy, love to ride my motorcycle, and I help my landlady take out her garbage. I'm a researcher in the areas game theoretics and mass behavior, and I love playing EvE Online.
If you are a mission-runner, Logit deserves your scorn. However, give me a chance to convince you that Logit is your best friend at the same time he's the biggest pain in your backside.
As CCP is well aware, EvE is great because it's a sandbox. The lack of constraints on us in-game allow numerous “steady states” of group behavior to arise. In fact, there are so many different behavioral equilibria that it is difficult for any one player to experience more than a few of them. Even within one “profession”, you will see different tactics in different regions, even if the strategies are the same. Mining ops in one area will be organized differently than ops in another area; FCs in the north operate a little differently than Russian FCs.
Multiple norms of behavior allow the events to occur that make EvE amazing.
Armageddon single-handedly destroys a 40-man highsec mining fleet with a surprise suicide attack. Trusted broker's conscience gets the best of him; commandeers stolen unique ship and returns it to the player it was stolen from. Bank CEO absconds with hundreds of billions. Legendary alliance destroyed by espionage.
In other words, EvE is great because the unexpected occurs.
There have been other games like EvE, sandbox games that were great, but were ruined because well-intentioned changes rippled through them, destroying behavioral equilibria. A classic example was the addition of rare tools into Star Wars Galaxies that could prevent gear from decaying to the point where they were unusable. This change was meant to preserve the hard work of some of the game's most dedicated players, and to encourage rare item use in PvP. However, the change disrupted the player-made economy; demand for high-end crafted gear evaporated, incentives to hunt for looted crafting components disappeared, and SWG was soon hemorrhaging 10k subscriptions per month. SWG had unintentionally constrained the variety of fun behaviors and interactions.
While CCP has maintained minimal constraints on behavior, its track record is not perfect. For instance, the introduction of jump freighters has reduced the number of viable behaviors available to those who enjoy the challenge of long-range, heavy-volume commerce. Soon, a comprehensive set of structural constraints will be introduced into 0.0. While the changes may turn out for the best, it is a fact that increased constraints reduce the possible number of behavioral equilibria.
In other words, with more rules, the unexpected becomes less so.
On the 4th CSM, I'll dedicate full effort to exploring the unintended consequences of the big changes that are coming to EvE.
Logit Probit may be a horrible bastard, but I'll be on my best behavior, and I'll do everything I can to preserve that sweet spot in EvE where the learning curve is just a little too high and the barrier to making horrible mistakes is just a little too low.
Trust me, that spot is where we all want to be.
Now get out there and run some missions.
There go with +4 votes. Good luck in the CSM.
This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware. |
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Bhaumut
|
Posted - 2009.10.18 23:56:00 -
[81]
Your making me leave my comfy spot under the bridge in C&P, to troll you here... this makes me unhappy.
Fail 1 Fail 2 Fail 3
And also Bubble girl says no too...
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Logit Probit
|
Posted - 2009.10.19 00:18:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Bhaumut
|
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CCP Applebabe
|
Posted - 2009.10.19 05:50:00 -
[83]
Moved to " Jita Park Speakers Corner ".
Applebabe Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us |
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Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate
|
Posted - 2009.10.19 22:01:00 -
[84]
This guy isn't that bad.. This sorta people make eve what it is, it's about balance between this and order. Half of the attacks on the OP are not reasonable. Not voting for you because I have another candidate in mind.
And btw: all the talk about good an evil is kinda lame. Fix Destroyers |
Logit Probit
|
Posted - 2009.10.30 21:50:00 -
[85]
CCP just informed me that my candidacy was approved. 49 candidates total! That's quite a few. Hope there are enough ninjas and suicide gankers out there to give me a shot. (I suppose if there aren't, then they don't really deserve representation. lol)
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Daugar Draaken
|
Posted - 2009.10.31 16:47:00 -
[86]
I read your position and I find myself nodding empthatically at
"In other words, EvE is great because the unexpected occurs."
Yes. This is what I care about.
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.11.04 06:53:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Daugar Draaken I read your position and I find myself nodding empthatically at
"In other words, EvE is great because the unexpected occurs."
Yes. This is what I care about.
:D
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Kirana
Minmatar Altair Express
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Posted - 2009.11.05 18:05:00 -
[88]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 11/10/2009 12:43:38
Actually, a radical anti-carebear elected to the CSM will do less damage than one that presents himself to be "more balanced". For this reason alone I encourage all the carebear haters and "OMG iM s0 uB3r h4RdcOrE" PVPers to vote for this guy. There's nothing like an idiot elected by idiots to represent them.
LMAO MatrixSkye for President of sig images!
Well said. Anarchy, while attractive to students of college philosophical and anthropological concepts, isn't exactly sustainable. I have played since just after launch and it's kind of disturbing to see the skyrocket trend of asshattery for asshattery's sake that doesn't add anything to the game. You can be a pirate/scammer/bad guy and not be a tool. It is possible. It's unfortunately also increasingly rare in Eve.
Eve isn't anyone's experiment in social behavior, unless I missed the memo. Last I checked it was a video game. He has some good points about treading lightly on game mechanics. Maybe he's even correct about the source of the demise of SWG. I think Eve can endure far more than a game like SWG and WoW though.
Time will tell. Vote Kirana for CSM4!
We were somewhere on the edge of Fountain when the drugs took hold... |
Kirana
Minmatar Altair Express
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Posted - 2009.11.05 22:04:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Imertu Solientai EVE, by every definition is a combat game. Why do you think practically every video of the game has ships blowing each other up?
Huh. By the same logic one would assume from watching the evening news that humanity is all about murder, ****, war, and whatever ridiculous holiday is currently being celebrated. These are all facets of humanity but they don't define humanity.
Eve, in my opinion, is an empire building game. You can play and excel in Eve without ever fitting an offensive module. Counterstrike is a slice of a reality taken out of context. The whole world doesn't wake up in the morning, strap on a tactical vest, and head out to the office to snipe the guys across the street. Maybe if you live in Mogadishu or something, but probably not even then.
There are a lot of people that want it very badly to be a pure combat game. Just like there are people who want it to be mining game or a market trading game.
However, I am pretty sure that no matter what your slant, you would probably whine to someone if you went to the grocery store in your average modern city and someone mugged you and blew up your car with a rocket launcher. If you went strolling through some "bad" neighborhood that you didn't belong in to go grocery shopping, you might expect trouble. And if you lived in a world where there were no "good" places, then you would essentially have the dark ages. No progress, just war and famine and sorrow for war famine and sorrows sake. Given the highly organized nature of Eve, I doubt that is what CCP have in mind. But that's just my take.
It's weird how this argument always seems to end up with one extreme or the other being the only way. The PVP folks want, unrealistically, to be able to destroy at will, anyone, anywhere, with no more inconvenience than a lost (insured) ship and a slap on the hand in the form of a security ouchie. And the non PVP folks want, unrealistically, to be able to autopilot freighters from one side of Eve to the other and AFK mine anywhere without risk of getting ganked.
Without PVP, industry is worthless. Without industry PVP is bumper pods.
Find a happy medium or whine about it. Pretty simple.
In my opinion there are two kinds of idiots in this game. High sec grief pilots, meaning the unorganized pilots with no goals beyond blowing up as many people as possible regardless of gains. And the ninnies that want a game that you can play on autopilot while you do your laundry. I like to pretend both of these camps are all in the 12-18yo range so that I don't have to be sad that there are adults that are that deluded, naive, and self important.
You want respect as a pirate, try a hard target now and then instead of killing noobs all day and salvaging peoples wrecks. Then high fiving your buddies in local like you accomplished something. You want respect as a miner, tank some 0.0 belt rats while ninja mining a rival alliances space and don't cry when a 10 man cov ops roam blows you out of that space. Or do a freight run in low sec.
The real pirates don't give a **** about high sec because there's not much that CCP could change that would prevent them operating somewhere. And the same goes for real industry pilots.
The root of the problem, as I see it, is "high sec" is a misnomer. It's not secure and it's certainly not highly secure. No one wants to take away combat. Well, no one that matters. People just want it to make sense. Currently it doesn't really. High sec is a pile of crap right now. Just a giant monkey **** fest of griefers and carebears. Solve this and I am pretty sure you solve several interdependent issues like spreading out the population. Why would anyone leave high sec? As risky as it is, it's still the safest place for the little guy to mine and build. And the risk keeps the markets relatively even between low and high sec. And considering that there isn't really any risk to the pirates, why not park next to the food bowl and just stay there Vote Kirana for CSM4!
We were somewhere on the edge of Fountain when the drugs took hold... |
Kirana
Minmatar Altair Express
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Posted - 2009.11.05 22:18:00 -
[90]
For the record. I don't think ganking should be outlawed in high sec. I don't think combat should be outlawed in high sec. But the penalties should be adjusted to be more in line with the varying sec ratings. And that doesn't mean more gate cops and concord.
The juciest targets should be riskier. For the same reason, there is no Arkonor in high sec.
And salvage should have ownership like cans. That way when I run into Logit he won't be the only one having fun. Although I am pretty sure the reason it doesn't was a design issue more than a decision to not apply ownership beyond the loot inside the wreck. Vote Kirana for CSM4!
We were somewhere on the edge of Fountain when the drugs took hold... |
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Kirana
Minmatar Altair Express
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Posted - 2009.11.05 22:55:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Kirana on 05/11/2009 22:54:56 I stand corrected.
This isn't confirmed but it's entirely possible. Comes from the CEO of Suddenly Ninjas
Ninja Salvage
--- Vote Kirana for CSM4!
We were somewhere on the edge of Fountain when the drugs took hold... |
The'Best Hellfury
Incura
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Posted - 2009.11.06 04:24:00 -
[92]
no ALEKSEYEV KARRDE FOR CSM |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.11.06 11:10:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Artassaut I'll vote for you if you go and gank another CSM candidate.
He's welcome to come try :D
Don't know who to vote for? Find out with CSM matchmaker!
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Cyberin
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.11.06 18:52:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Cyberin on 06/11/2009 18:53:54 I agree 100% with you on all counts, my 3 votes will most definitely be going to you!
Originally by: Kirana Edited by: Kirana on 05/11/2009 22:54:56 I stand corrected.
This isn't confirmed but it's entirely possible. Comes from the CEO of Suddenly Ninjas
Ninja Salvage
---
Your proof can be found here in the post by CCP Incognito
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1208319&page=1#24
Hands Off, My Loots!
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Kirana
Minmatar Altair Express
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Posted - 2009.11.07 22:17:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Cyberin
Your proof can be found here in the post by CCP Incognito
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1208319&page=1#24
So it is written, so shall it be done.
It's not the end of the world. But it would be nice to be able to shoot at them. Vote Kirana for CSM4!
We were somewhere on the edge of Fountain when the drugs took hold... |
Faeshia
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Posted - 2009.11.08 19:02:00 -
[96]
He's got my vote!
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Sliaria
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Posted - 2009.11.09 00:10:00 -
[97]
Someone from Legion of xXDeathXx brought this up earlier, and I'd like to make it a formal question for Logit:
What is your position on the Local channel, specifically relating to its effect as an instant, system-wide scanner? Would you advocate the change or removal of that function, and in what ways?
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.11.09 07:13:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Sliaria Someone from Legion of xXDeathXx brought this up earlier, and I'd like to make it a formal question for Logit:
What is your position on the Local channel, specifically relating to its effect as an instant, system-wide scanner? Would you advocate the change or removal of that function, and in what ways?
The systemic effects of changing Local Chat to a delay would need to be considered. Clearly, such a change would have far-reaching consequences beyond just the hoped-for effect (making PvP more unpredictable, presumably.)
Currently, there are methods (probably exploits) of creating super-deep safespots. There are also many players with bookmarked super-deep safes from when they were easy to make. These safespots would allow people to circumvent the only remaining way of gathering intel (probing/scanning), and would generate a lot of complaining. This issue would need to be addressed first.
Another issue is how it would change the incentive structure surrounding fleet sizes. Currently, in lowsec and 0.0, smaller gangs (of both PvPers and PvEers) can use the easy intel Local Chat provides to assess possible engagements. Without that easy intel, blobbing for defensive purposes becomes much more attractive.
While I have never liked Local Chat, and would personally be happy to see a delay added to it, a change to it would have far-reaching consequences. It would definitely make EvE more hardcore (a plus IMO), but it would encourage blobbing (bad) and generate a lot of whining from all types of players about unfair advantages. A change would have to be carefully thought out.
Sorry if this seems like a dodge, but this is the kind of representative I would be; I would approach changes to game mechanics conservatively, no matter how attractive they were to me personally.
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Kirana
Minmatar Altair Express
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Posted - 2009.11.09 17:17:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Kirana on 09/11/2009 17:19:20 Edited by: Kirana on 09/11/2009 17:17:28
Originally by: Sliaria Someone from Legion of xXDeathXx brought this up earlier, and I'd like to make it a formal question for Logit:
What is your position on the Local channel, specifically relating to its effect as an instant, system-wide scanner? Would you advocate the change or removal of that function, and in what ways?
Pardon the thread jack, but why not just take away the pilot list from local altogether. It doesn't really make sense that you would just know who was in a system, even on a delay. But if you happened to be in a system when someone made a broadcast, then you would know they were there.
I wouldn't argue about whether local list is fair or not. But I would argue that it doesn't make a lot of sense. It assumes that there is some system in place of collecting stats on the local population and then broadcasting those results out to every ship in local. I guess you could say this is a function of the gates but why does it exist? What's the purpose? Wormholes have no gates but still have local lists...
Even from a PVP perspective I think it takes some of the fun out of it. More fun to guard the gates and start probing.
That's my 2 cents. Leave local chat but take away any pilot stats. Just like a radio at sea. I know you are there if my radar can see you or if you are broadcasting. Past that... Vote Kirana for CSM4!
We were somewhere on the edge of Fountain when the drugs took hold... |
Kalos Beila
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Posted - 2009.11.09 19:55:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Moranda Morland Things I learned form this thread:
1. That Logit Probit is afraid to face the people he ****es off so he hides in a NPC corp, very pirateish- YARRR and a few
2. Nerds in real life tend to be asshats on the interwebs
3. Even guys with small PP's can and do get married, I assume you are married to a female if not nothing wrong with it i live in SF it smells of Vaseline around here all the time.
4. That a moped and a motorcycle are the same thing when talking to people that don't know you in real life.
5. That he really considers (or most likely wishes others would) himself a, scumbag, and a horrible bastard.
6. You have no chance in hell to win-
so go pet your puppy hop on the moped with you gay lover and put this CSM silliness outta your pretty little bald head ; )
Kisses Moranda
/thread
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Sliaria
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Posted - 2009.11.09 20:20:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Sliaria on 09/11/2009 20:20:34
Originally by: Logit Probit Sorry if this seems like a dodge,
Not at all - Your position on the issue is that you'd look at any proposed change very closely and be watchful for any negative impact on the choices we have in the game (strengthening blobbing as the "only" choice counts as a negative impact on choices in my book). You told me exactly what I wanted to know.
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Box Cox
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Posted - 2009.11.10 17:59:00 -
[102]
+2 votes for you sir.
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RedSplat
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.11.10 18:31:00 -
[103]
You should make Matrix Skye your running mate, look at all the free publicity he is giving you securing the griefer vote!
If only i had 1 Isk for every time he has spewed bile all over a thread related to Suddenly Ninjas I'd have...
Lots of Isk.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
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Riedle
Minmatar Raptus Regalitor
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Posted - 2009.11.12 14:14:00 -
[104]
You have my vote.
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Velocity Prime
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.11.12 17:36:00 -
[105]
You have my vote support, good sir.
VelociLogic.com |
Adabuesi
Minmatar Freelance Mining and Courier
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Posted - 2009.11.12 18:18:00 -
[106]
been a carebear since i started eve
Im very happy to finally have a carebear CSM candidate who also fears pvp and war decs
also at all the wasted votes "oh look he wants to keep eve the same! *VOTE*"
"The only thing worse then a no vote is an uneducated vote"
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Durbin Watson
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Posted - 2009.11.12 20:51:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Durbin Watson on 12/11/2009 20:51:32
Originally by: Adabuesi been a carebear since i started eve
Im very happy to finally have a carebear CSM candidate who also fears pvp and war decs
also at all the wasted votes "oh look he wants to keep eve the same! *VOTE*"
"The only thing worse then a no vote is an uneducated vote"
Kill yourself (in-game)
+2 for Logit Probit
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Adabuesi
Minmatar Freelance Mining and Courier
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Posted - 2009.11.12 23:11:00 -
[108]
Kill yourself (in-game)
+2 for Logit Probit
rgr, starting self destruct on my pod now..
..I'd ask you to come assist me but since you are a Logit supporter I assume your busy salvaging... |
Gauss Markov
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Posted - 2009.11.12 23:50:00 -
[109]
You have my vote. Highsec pirates represent
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Srialia
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.11.13 10:10:00 -
[110]
How in the world did you come up with that sig?
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LarcatOfZion
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Posted - 2009.11.14 17:15:00 -
[111]
As a fellow ninja salvaging graduate student at a Midwestern University, you have my vote.
o7
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Brechan Skene
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Posted - 2009.11.14 23:39:00 -
[112]
You have my vote, after all chaos is good. Chaos is just
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Moranda Morland
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Posted - 2009.11.15 16:18:00 -
[113]
There really should be some sort of aptitude test before someone is allowed to vote in any type of election.
"I'm not going to kiss any 4sses and I'm not trying to cultivate a band of groupies. I'm putting myself forward as a CSM candidate because 1. I want a free vacation to Iceland and CCP headquarters"
Goes to show you what happens when one idiot gets backed by a larger group of idiots.
anyways enjoy your trip....
oh and link for those too lazy to research who they vote for: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1198265/page/1#14 |
Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.11.15 21:04:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Moranda Morland There really should be some sort of aptitude test before someone is allowed to vote in any type of election.
"I'm not going to kiss any 4sses and I'm not trying to cultivate a band of groupies. I'm putting myself forward as a CSM candidate because 1. I want a free vacation to Iceland and CCP headquarters"
Goes to show you what happens when one idiot gets backed by a larger group of idiots.
anyways enjoy your trip....
oh and link for those too lazy to research who they vote for: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1198265/page/1#14
You could at least have the decency to post my entire quote. Here it is:
Originally by: Logit Probit
Originally by: pleasewontyoulikeme
Anyone else be glad when CSM is over and we aren't subjected to these threads anymore?
also it seems like being the "voice" for the ninja salvager/can flippers would be about as degrading as being the voice for purse snatchers and people that pull off those huge liquor store jobs... Rolling Eyes
I'm not going to kiss any 4sses and I'm not trying to cultivate a band of groupies. I'm putting myself forward as a CSM candidate because
1. I want a free vacation to Iceland and CCP headquarters (anyone who says that isn't their main motivation is a liar or an idiot) and
2. I'm willing to donate considerable time and energy advocating for ninjas & highsec scumbags, because I love EvE and I love stealing from and killing mission runners.
If my fellow scumbags decide to waste their votes on lowsec pirates who won't represent their interests on CSM, or on popularity-obsessed egomaniacs who post more than they play, that's their loss.
As far as this being a repeat thread, I'm not going to spend hours on the forums just so I can necro some old post, that's for losers.
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Brechan Skene
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Posted - 2009.11.15 21:35:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Moranda Morland There really should be some sort of aptitude test before someone is allowed to vote in any type of election.
"I'm not going to kiss any 4sses and I'm not trying to cultivate a band of groupies. I'm putting myself forward as a CSM candidate because 1. I want a free vacation to Iceland and CCP headquarters"
Goes to show you what happens when one idiot gets backed by a larger group of idiots.
anyways enjoy your trip....
oh and link for those too lazy to research who they vote for: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1198265/page/1#14
I am very happy to provide him with a free vacation to Iceland. Personally I think they should move it to Amsterdam
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.11.17 21:26:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Brechan Skene
Originally by: Moranda Morland There really should be some sort of aptitude test before someone is allowed to vote in any type of election.
"I'm not going to kiss any 4sses and I'm not trying to cultivate a band of groupies. I'm putting myself forward as a CSM candidate because 1. I want a free vacation to Iceland and CCP headquarters"
Goes to show you what happens when one idiot gets backed by a larger group of idiots.
anyways enjoy your trip....
oh and link for those too lazy to research who they vote for: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1198265/page/1#14
I am very happy to provide him with a free vacation to Iceland. Personally I think they should move it to Amsterdam
\o/
Logit for CSM - Stop Idiots from Ruining the Sandbox |
Adnan Voss
Run rabbit Run
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Posted - 2009.11.19 03:28:00 -
[117]
I regret that I have but two votes to give!
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Gfand
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Posted - 2009.11.22 20:30:00 -
[118]
Typical arrogant asshat both in self justification here and behaviour in game.
Cowardly, defensive and lacking in any form of understanding of how eve can accomodate multiple behaviours without it has to be pure darwinism. Evidently from the school of freedom and democracy in that so long as it is a democracy that delivers YOUR personal freedom it is worth engaging.
I'd rather vote for a goon at least they truly play the game.
If your vision of eve gets any airplay you can be certain it wont include my money.
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Khalia Nestune
Sleeper Asset Relocation Services
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Posted - 2009.11.23 00:35:00 -
[119]
I love all the tears in this thread
+1 vote for Logit Probit
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Velocity Prime
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.11.23 01:18:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Gfand Typical arrogant asshat both in self justification here and behaviour in game.
Cowardly, defensive and lacking in any form of understanding of how eve can accomodate multiple behaviours without it has to be pure darwinism. Evidently from the school of freedom and democracy in that so long as it is a democracy that delivers YOUR personal freedom it is worth engaging.
I'd rather vote for a goon at least they truly play the game.
If your vision of eve gets any airplay you can be certain it wont include my money.
This post is the epitome of why we need MOAR Logit!
\o/
VelociLogic.com |
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.11.23 05:28:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Gfand Typical arrogant asshat both in self justification here and behaviour in game.
Cowardly, defensive and lacking in any form of understanding of how eve can accomodate multiple behaviours without it has to be pure darwinism. Evidently from the school of freedom and democracy in that so long as it is a democracy that delivers YOUR personal freedom it is worth engaging.
I'd rather vote for a goon at least they truly play the game.
If your vision of eve gets any airplay you can be certain it wont include my money.
You are entitled to your opinion.
Have fun playing Runescape or whatever
Logit for CSM - Stop Idiots from Ruining the Sandbox |
Saur Fang
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Posted - 2009.11.23 23:38:00 -
[122]
Logit... you, like me, are a rare breed of people who are capable of critical thinking. For that I applaud you and you have my vote.
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