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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.10.12 04:46:00 -
[1]
I was just watching the PVP round table discussion from Fan Fest and one part of the discussion caught my attention in particular.
The issue being discussed was the problem with stealth bombers de-cloaking each other. I'm bringing this up because there were some observations made that were a little off from how the game actually works, and the solution I think works best was "almost" hit upon, but not quite.
The only thing that I see to be a real issue is that if you gang warp a group of stealth bombers they tend to uncloak each other in warp. This makes it extremely difficult to organize a bombing run. Lets face it, bombs are really only effective when there are several bombers working in concert. There are already limitations as to how many bombs you can use in a single run, and what type you use. It requires a high degree of coordination (as it should). The issue with de-cloaking in warp adds a layer of difficulty that makes it a pretty frustrating affair to do (what I think) was intended with bombers. That being to warp in together cloaked, set up a bombing run on a centrally located target, de-cloak and let fly... and of course try to get out alive.
I don't want stealth bomber pilots to be able to see each other (even if in the same gang) as was suggested, that would be far to easy. I don't even think that I want to see cloaked ships be unable to de-cloak each other. I think that the solution was "almost" hit upon in the discussion, that being...
Formations.
We know they are coming, but we don't know exactly how they will be laid out. This is my attempt to ask for one of the new formations to be specifically designed for cloaking vessels, bombers in particular. Perhaps keep the ships in the formation just far enough apart so that they will not de-cloak each other when in warp or when maneuvering into position for a bombing run. I believe this would be a simple and elegant solution to the problem, without making stealth ships in general (and bombers in particular) over-powered (or more over-powered, depending on your point of view).
Yes, there are other tactics that work for deploying bombs. You can simply warp the gang to 30 and let fly if you have a vessel providing a warp in or your target is at a gate. You can also use a Black Ops to jump you to a covert cyno positioned 30km from your target (yes, a dead space fit Arazu works wonderfully as the covert cyno ship for this purpose), align to target and launch. Both of these tactics can be used effectively but both seem to detract a bit from what I think most envision as being the "proper" tactics to use with Stealth Bombers, as neither one is really dependent on using the Stealth Bombers primary advantage, being cloaked until bomb release. A formation that allowed bombers to utilize their strengths when setting up for a bombing run is, I believe, the best and most balanced solution.
You would still have to be careful. One idiot breaking formation would run the risk of de-cloaking some (if not all) of the people in his group. One miscalculation on the part of the squad leader could easily get part or all of this group de-cloaked. Skill and discipline would be emphasized, trust would be necessary, hilarious mass de-cloaking would happen... I think this would go a long way towards creating the feeling that your specialized flight group really is on a "bombing run".
What do you think?
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.10.12 04:57:00 -
[2]
Yes, formations enforced by the game itself will be a great boost to stealth bombers. Except for the fact that they'll decloak immediately after warpin anyway, release their bombs then flee. From what I've read, the formations will be enforced by the game code so there's little chance of breaking formation unless you really try.
[Aussie players: join channel ANZAC] |
Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.10.12 05:16:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 12/10/2009 05:17:41
Originally by: Mara Rinn Yes, formations enforced by the game itself will be a great boost to stealth bombers. Except for the fact that they'll decloak immediately after warpin anyway, release their bombs then flee. From what I've read, the formations will be enforced by the game code so there's little chance of breaking formation unless you really try.
Well, actually you rarely get a situation where things are lined up perfectly to be able to de-cloak immediately after warp in. Usually you need to maneuver a bit to get yourself lined up properly with your target and a celestial (or other warp out point).
Attempting to line up on target, get to speed, launch, align to a celestial, and then warp... all while uncloaked will get you killed more often than not. You are usually with 30 to 40km of your target when attempting to bomb, which is within the warp scramble range of an Arazu and only a second or two out of range of a ceptor. Your chance of getting snagged is extremely high unless you set your bombing run up properly prior to uncloaking.
As for formations being enforced by the game code, I'm not sure what you mean there. Obviously its part of the game code to be able to select a formation. If you mean there would be restrictions on when and how a pilot would leave formation, I haven't seen that. The only discussions I have seen on it have indicated that any time a pilot wants to "leave formation" all he has to do is double click in space or use a command like orbit or keep at range, or of course simply warp out. And yes, i think a pilot absolutely should be able to leave a formation at any time. If you were locked into a formation and couldn't easily leave it when taking heavy damage and needed to warp out, or if your FC insisted on driving the fleet at a range you simply cannot hit from (bad fleet composition there, but it happens), then no one would ever use formations.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Julius Rigel
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Posted - 2009.10.12 05:21:00 -
[4]
Ooh, number one, where the heck is this video of this magical round table everyone talks about?
And secondly, news flash! Stealth bombers weren't even able to cloakwarp up until very recently, so just be freaking happy that you have a little extra something, and stop complaining that you don't have enough.
Thanks a lot in advance for a link to that video though, much appreciated!
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.10.12 05:32:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Julius Rigel Ooh, number one, where the heck is this video of this magical round table everyone talks about?
And secondly, news flash! Stealth bombers weren't even able to cloakwarp up until very recently, so just be freaking happy that you have a little extra something, and stop complaining that you don't have enough.
Thanks a lot in advance for a link to that video though, much appreciated!
PVP Roundtable on YouTube
I've been flying Stealth Bombers since they were created, so I'm well aware of their past and present capabilities. They have also been balanced pretty well around their new abilities, I'm not complaining on that account at all. However the issues in this thread have been brought up before, and acknowledged by the Devs as something that they would like to smoothed out. This happened when the changes to Stealth Bombers were being hotly discussed in the thread dedicated to the proposed changes in the EVE Information Portal section of these forums.
In the video you will notice that right after this issue was brought up, Noah (I believe) brought up the subject of formations... but I don't think the dots all got connected that formations could well be the solution to the problem.
I'm just trying to focus attention on this, not raise a stink. It's a bit of fine tuning that would be well appreciated by every bomber pilot out there.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Julius Rigel
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Posted - 2009.10.12 08:08:00 -
[6]
Excellent! I will have a peek at that video when I get a spare moment.
As for the whole issue with formations, I still say make the bloody formations yourselves, like the rest of us. No need to remove / diminish a fun and interesting gameplay feature in favor of the pesky autopilot just because you're too lazy to explore it.
As for warping in on a target, this should be a challenge. You don't get to make the autopilot do all the work for you. Warp in, then move away and let the next bomber warp in. It's not rocket science that complicated, it's fun!
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Vidi Angelus
Caldari Axis and Alloys Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.10.12 09:13:00 -
[7]
Generally, I feel that stealthbombers should always operate independently from a fleet. You should be warping to a spot 200K off of gate, and warping to into bomb range manually.
People flying stealth bombers with friendly units around should always have reasonable PVP experiance and already know exactly what they should be doing before the FC gives the order. Good stealth bomber pilots almost always have strong knowledge of the basics of FC'ing.
My point is that a sniper HAC gang is perfect for formation use, but stealthbombers work best independently controlled. There is no significant advantage to keeping close. If you need to meet off of a gate, you should all warp to 200K spots, and warp to a fleet memeber at 10K.
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RedLion
Caldari State Constructions
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Posted - 2009.10.12 11:01:00 -
[8]
omg SB can cloak warp now! Sweet!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.10.12 11:03:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ranger 1 As for formations being enforced by the game code, I'm not sure what you mean there. Obviously its part of the game code to be able to select a formation.
I'm not sure there's much point to having "formations" if the computer isn't going to fly your ship in formation for you.
Quote: If you mean there would be restrictions on when and how a pilot would leave formation, I haven't seen that. The only discussions I have seen on it have indicated that any time a pilot wants to "leave formation" all he has to do is double click in space or use a command like orbit or keep at range, or of course simply warp out.
I'm not talking about controls of when and how you can leave formations, I'm talking about the computer controlling the ship's flight so that eg: stealthbombers in a sphere formation are keeping distant from each other so as not to decloak the fleet.
[Aussie players: join channel ANZAC] |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.10.12 11:25:00 -
[10]
Originally by: RedLion omg SB can cloak warp now! Sweet!
Hey they added clone jumping too!!!
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Kolatha
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Posted - 2009.10.12 12:11:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ranger 1
PVP Roundtable on YouTube
Link didn't work for me, took me to the "Butterfly effect" video instead.
However, found the right one here
And in plain text in case the warning page mangles that link as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UeLkfKb6Zs
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Irongut
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.10.12 12:59:00 -
[12]
Groups of Stealth Bombers are already overpowered and this is likely to get worse in Dominion. Making them easier to use is not a good idea imo.
-- Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.10.12 13:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kolatha
Originally by: Ranger 1
PVP Roundtable on YouTube
Link didn't work for me, took me to the "Butterfly effect" video instead.
However, found the right one here
And in plain text in case the warning page mangles that link as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UeLkfKb6Zs
Hmmm, likely that is an issue with my having the EVE channel subscribed. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
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CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.12 14:04:00 -
[14]
Moved from General Discussion.
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.10.12 14:13:00 -
[15]
Quote: I'm not sure there's much point to having "formations" if the computer isn't going to fly your ship in formation for you.
Errr, okay. I'm still not sure what you are trying to say. Formations are coming, we just don't have details yet. This is a suggestion for one type of formation I would like them to consider. The basic premise of formations is that a squad/wing/fleet commander on a formation, and then procedes to select the formation he wants from a drop down list or what have you. The group of ships then moves into the appropriate positions and maintains that position until either the leader disbands the formation, or individual pilots choose to leave/break formation on their own. Formations will likely have both game play advantages (slight bonus to resistances, sig resolution, that sort of thing) as well as simple practical advantages (keeping the fleet easily within remote repair range, etc.). So yes, if you are in formation "the computer" will keep you at the correct postion in the formation... but no it's not autopilot, the squad/wing/fleet leader will be determing the formations course.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
RoyAraym
Gallente Alkadia-Doria Coriaultis
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Posted - 2009.10.12 14:57:00 -
[16]
Is it dangerous to warp in fleet, with Stealth Bombers?
So... why do you warp in fleet?
Bombing is an art: cloak, pick up different direction, in space, to planets-gates-belt, warp together at the same time (voice-comm order? chat order? Whatever you use, is fine...), but from different direction, ad target not only caught unaware of you, but also surrounded.
THIS is a man made "attack formation".
I know: it's difficult...
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Widshin
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Posted - 2009.10.12 15:24:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote: I'm not sure there's much point to having "formations" if the computer isn't going to fly your ship in formation for you.
Errr, okay. I'm still not sure what you are trying to say. Formations are coming, we just don't have details yet.
He is saying that in order to BE in a formation, your ship has to be like autpiloted at that point. There can be no formation with everybody zipping around at his leisure.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.10.12 15:30:00 -
[18]
Quote: I know: it's difficult...
Difficult. No, not really. Pointless? Yes, especially since formations are coming in anyway.
This is not a whine about current mechanics. They are workable, if tedious. This is a suggestion concerning the new formations that have already been announced that are going to be coming in game, and a re-empahsis of the conversations that already taken place in the PVP roundtable at Fan Fest.
Stealth Bombers are fine as they are, well balanced and effective. We are talking about formations here, and how they might relate to stealth bombers in a logical and helpful way.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.10.12 17:12:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Widshin
Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote: I'm not sure there's much point to having "formations" if the computer isn't going to fly your ship in formation for you.
Errr, okay. I'm still not sure what you are trying to say. Formations are coming, we just don't have details yet.
He is saying that in order to BE in a formation, your ship has to be like autpiloted at that point. There can be no formation with everybody zipping around at his leisure.
Of course you can't be flying around on your own if you are still in a formation. I'm still not sure what he was on about, other than to perhaps point out the obvious. For that matter, what does his observation have to do with this thread?
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Teavan
First CityWide Change Bank New Eden Retail Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.12 17:21:00 -
[20]
It is quite a good idea Ranger. Hope the "l2p" guy gets the point soon or later.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.10.12 20:32:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 12/10/2009 20:33:29
Quote: My point is that a sniper HAC gang is perfect for formation use, but stealthbombers work best independently controlled. There is no significant advantage to keeping close
Except, of course, when trying to orchestrate a bombing run.
Your bombs have limited range, limited blast radius, and are forward firing weapons. To make sure as much of your bomb damage is on target and on time as possible you would ideally be launching from the same range and at the same time. It is certainly not impossible now, but it is very tedious. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Julius Rigel
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Posted - 2009.10.13 18:41:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Julius Rigel on 13/10/2009 18:44:46
Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote: I know: it's difficult...
Difficult. No, not really. Pointless? Yes, especially since formations are coming in anyway.
Ahah, so you are saying a feature that has been in the game from the start is "pointless" because there may or may not be a feature replacing it some day?
Quote: the "l2p" guy
Yes! Yes, you should learn to play. If we weren't here to play the game manually, we would just be here to argue on a forum. While this is a fun side activity I admit, if all I wanted to do was argue without the space graphics I would just go to some linguistics forum and pick up a metaphorical sponge-bat-thing and join in the verbal pillow fight.
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Cpl Punnishment
Caldari Steel Fleet Ocularis Inferno
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Posted - 2009.10.13 19:54:00 -
[23]
I was the person at FF that asked the question about SB at the PVP round table. I was interested in the problems associated with trying to coordinate a few SBs in a fashion that prevented SBs from decloaking eachother. As it stands, with a little set up and patience, you can set up a camp in a reasonable fashion providing you have a bit of time and the field is clear for you to do so.
However, It is also fun to be more fluid and look for targets of opportunity. I was thinking that, lets say in the Fleet Command box, there might be a feature that lets you ping other SBs in your fleet. I don't feel that a SB should never be able to decloak another SB, but this would be a useful way to set up on runs and what not.
I might have hinted at some form of formation option that might address the same issue, not sure, my audio for the youtube clip is fecked atm. So the formations thing was already in development per the DEV. We can discuss the pros and cons of general formations at another thread.
But getting back to what the OP has brought up, I like the idea of having a SB specific formation. Even if it is simply warped as a Stealth Bomber wing, somehow allwoing their cloaks to harmonize while in warp to prevent decloak. Outside of warping, formations are already on the table. I don't think it would be unreasonable to have bomber formaions.
I would still like to see a Fleet Ping feature, even if it only pings for 30K, that would allow you to ping other SBs in your fleet. Ping could only be detected by other SBs that are in your fleet. This feature could simply be added to the Feet, or Fleet Broadcast tabs.
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