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Captain Alcatraz
Invicta. Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.10.12 20:14:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Captain Alcatraz on 12/10/2009 20:18:41 With all the ship changes in Dominion you guys could take a look at the Nighthawk.
Its not normal having to fit 2x RCU II to be able to fit the rest of the ship normaly.
Make it able to fit a warfare link, MWD, 6x HML II, a LSE. Thats about 1085 PG needed; You need at least an RCU and an Ancillary Current Router I to fit that. No other command ship need such fitting mods to fit what would be a regular fit.
1085 PG with skills at 5 is nothing exagerated, considering its T1 hull the Ferox has 1344 PG w/o any fitting mods
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FISHANDCHIPS
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Posted - 2009.10.12 21:15:00 -
[2]
Or you could buy yourself what 6 drakes for the price of a NH and do almost the same stuff with decent insurance
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2009.10.12 21:26:00 -
[3]
Originally by: FISHANDCHIPS Or you could buy yourself what 6 drakes for the price of a NH and do almost the same stuff with decent insurance
or ccp could make this T2 ship with awesome potential viable for pvp? _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
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FISHANDCHIPS
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Posted - 2009.10.12 21:56:00 -
[4]
Originally by: XXSketchxx
Originally by: FISHANDCHIPS Or you could buy yourself what 6 drakes for the price of a NH and do almost the same stuff with decent insurance
or ccp could make this T2 ship with awesome potential viable for pvp?
yeah that sounds alot like something ccp would do
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2009.10.12 21:57:00 -
[5]
Edited by: XXSketchxx on 12/10/2009 21:56:50
Originally by: FISHANDCHIPS
or ccp could make this T2 ship with awesome potential viable for pvp?
yeah that sounds alot like something ccp would do
touche
i actually lol'd
then cried _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
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Giselle Beaute
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Posted - 2009.10.12 22:07:00 -
[6]
Don't touch my mission boat! There are 7 other Command Ships which are perfect for PVP but who suck at missions. The NH is the only exception. So leave the stats as they are. Just use a Vulture or switch to another race as the command ship skill applies to all four races.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2009.10.13 00:08:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 13/10/2009 00:10:17
Originally by: Giselle Beaute Don't touch my mission boat! There are 7 other Command Ships which are perfect for PVP but who suck at missions. The NH is the only exception. So leave the stats as they are. Just use a Vulture or switch to another race as the command ship skill applies to all four races.
... Or, make it viable? Seriously I'm sick of idiots like you with the "oh I've found some limited use for it elsewhere with a total lolfit, so there's no need to change it at all".
The Nighthawk is stupidly designed and could be fixed with the simple addition of some more fitting. Seriously, by your logic there's no need to fix rockets, or cruise missiles, or the Bellicose, Hawk, Retribution etc. etc. etc., which is an attitude that only kills off variety and forces everyone into the same few ships.
Try seeing beyond your own carebearing before posting next time.
Edit: It'd also be great if people got it into their skulls that pve ability should have no bearing on pvp balance. "It's a good mission runner" is not a justification for holding back on sorely needed buffs, that's a fortunate side effect of the ship and nothing more.
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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC. Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2009.10.13 00:44:00 -
[8]
I have a fairly solid pvp Nighthawk build that needs no fitting mods, never going to solo anything with it but that's not what I designed it for. In fact I could make it a bit nastier but I like my tank to be able to run a bit longer. Nighthawk is not nearly in need of a change.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2009.10.13 03:03:00 -
[9]
Edited by: XXSketchxx on 13/10/2009 03:04:44
Originally by: Nicoli Voldkif I have a fairly solid pvp Nighthawk build that needs no fitting mods, never going to solo anything with it but that's not what I designed it for. In fact I could make it a bit nastier but I like my tank to be able to run a bit longer. Nighthawk is not nearly in need of a change.
the Nighthawk is the only Field Command Ship that cannot fit close range, medium weapons + gang link + mwd without fitting mods
all 3 other FCS can not only fit this, but have plenty of grid left over as well
to me...this seems a tad unbalanced _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
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Eheufaucan
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2009.10.13 15:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: XXSketchxx
the Nighthawk is the only Field Command Ship that cannot fit close range, medium weapons + gang link + mwd without fitting mods
all 3 other FCS can not only fit this, but have plenty of grid left over as well
to me...this seems a tad unbalanced
True. So what? Fit some RCUs II then. I've read somewhere that a CCP dev said the NH wasn't designed for close range combat or the use of a MWD. Of course nowadays a MWD is mandatory for PvP. So maybe they should react and add some grid - but I think the NH is fine as it is. Just look at this PvP setup for example:
High: 6x HAM II - Kinetic Missiles 1x Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing
Med: 1x Large Shield Extender II 1x Invul II 1x Photon Scattering Field II 1x Warp Disrupter II 1x Y-T8 MWD
Lows: 2x Ballistic Control System II 2x Reactor Control Unit II 1x Damage Control II
Rigs: 2x Medium Shield Extender Rigs I
Drones: 5x T2
Stats:
Damage: 427 DPS with T1 Terror Assault Missiles 491 DPS with Navy Terror Assault Missiles 546 DPS with T2 Terror Rage Assault Missiles +99 DPS from the Light Drones -> you can reach 645 DPS with T2 Rage and Drones
Speed: 1038 m/s
Tank:
A) with inactive Warfare Link:
154 DPS from passive recharge
Resists: EM 78,2% Therm 86,2% Kin 82,8% Expl 77,0%
Effective HP: 86,356 HP (omni)
B) when set as fleet booster with active shield harmonizing warfare link module and siege warfare mindlink:
215 DPS from passive recharge
Resists: EM 81,0% Therm 88,9% Kin 86,1% Expl 81,5%
Effective HP: 112,973 HP (omni)
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Eheufaucan
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2009.10.13 15:24:00 -
[11]
Yes, you had to fit two RCUs II but still these are some nice stats. You can't fit an active tank because the lack of cap and a 154/215 dps passive recharge rate is very low - but in PvP when primaried it doens't matter whether you can tank 200 or 500 dps. You will die anyway. Ok, you could fit CCC rigs instead of shield extender rigs to keep the active tank running but you would lose a lot EHP. The NH has only 5 med slots - if you fit a MWD and maybe a warp disrupter then you have only 3 med slots left to fit hardeners, shield booster and shield boost amplifier. At the end you've got much less EHP just to active tank a few dps more. And as you know in PvP a high buffer tank is much more important thats why I would prefer my posted setup. I think over 86k / 112k effective hitpoints are more than enough. Before they changed the titans DDD AOE damage to a single superlaser this setup could also tank a single DD. Even a Minmar explosive DD against this setups lowest resistance AND with deactivated warfare link module. In my opinion the NH isn't weak - it's balanced. You want a high dps, high speed, high buffer tank fleet boosting ship without having to worry about optimal/falloff/tracking? Then you have to sacrifice two low slots for fitting mods as a tradeoff and still reach some good stats. What if CCP adds some grid and you could drop the two RCUs? You could fit some PDUs and get a higher buffer tank (122k omni EHP, 178k therm EHP) or you could fit two additional damage mods and reach 746 dps. I think that would be abit overpowered.
I like the variety of the ships/setups and don't want everything look the same. That would be boring. There are 3 Field Command Ships which can fit MWD + close range weapons + warfare links without any problems. You can even fit the 4 Fleet Command Ships (yes, the vulture can fit 3 warfare links, a MWD and 4x med T2 blasters without having grid problems) the same way but still you want that all 8 command ships can fit the same modules. At the end you have 8 similar ships with just different weapon systems. Why? I would like to see even more variety between the Command Ships. Just look at the Tier 1 BS. Ever heared an Apoc pilot whining that he can't fit a proper Ewar setup like a Scorpion pilot? Or look at the Tier 3 BS. The Rokh is a perfect sniper while the Hyperion is a (solo) Blaster boat. Of course you could fit the Hyp for long range and the Rokh for short range but you wouldn't reach the good stats of the other ship.
One more thing. Just because the NH got the Role Bonus "99% reduction in Warfare Link module CPU need" doesn't mean that you MUST fit a warfare link. Theres no leadership bonus on the ship - a cheap Drake has the same role bonus. You could fit a warfare link on a Drake an receive the same gang bonus. If you really have good leadership skills and want to be the fleet booster then you should better use a T3 cruiser with the warfare prozessor subsystem (up to 25% bonus to effectiveness of Siege Warfare Links) or a Field Command Ship (up to 15% bonus to effectiveness of Siege Warfare Links and it can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously without having to fit command processors). Their dps is crap but they give much better gang bonuses and have a really strong tank. So for fleet booster use a Vulture parked at a safespot and for combat use the NH without the warfare link and you should have not fitting problems - or be more creative with your setups and don't just transfer a minmar setup on a caldari ship.
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Alfons Richthofen
Caldari Die Luftwaffe
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Posted - 2009.10.13 15:49:00 -
[12]
Originally by: FISHANDCHIPS
Originally by: XXSketchxx
Originally by: FISHANDCHIPS Or you could buy yourself what 6 drakes for the price of a NH and do almost the same stuff with decent insurance
or ccp could make this T2 ship with awesome potential viable for pvp?
yeah that sounds alot like something ccp would do
Sounds a lot like a troll. Gtfo of the thread please.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2009.10.13 16:01:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Eheufaucan
some good stats on potential Nighthawk fit currently
The problem with those stats is the same thing everyone says when people say "whats a good fit for a NH for pvp" - drake does it for a fraction of the cost and at pretty damn good efficiency
The nighthawk should be a valid option in terms of price/efficiency. All I'm asking for is enough grid to fit 6x HAMs, gang mod, mwd, without wasting slots on fitting mods. Enough for an LSE would be nice, but not necessary. This is hardly overpowered.
And to say that the NH was not designed for close ranged combat is sorta true, but EvE has evolved and so should the ship. I have not been able to confirm this but I have heard many state that the NH came out before HAMs were introduced, and thus the necessary grid of a full rack of them was not factored into the NH's stats.
The NH is a field command ship. By its own description:
Quote:
Sporting advanced command module interfaces, these vessels are more than capable of turning the tide in large engagements. Field command ships are geared more towards out-and-out combat than their fleet command counterparts, though both ships can hold their own in battle.
From this (and the role bouns of 99% reduction for gang mods) one can gather that Field Command Ships should be able to do at least 2 things
1. Gives some nice bonuses to gang mates 2. Give some nice damage on the battlefield
Additionally, the ship does get a rate of fire bonus to HAMs...so...it follows to assume that it should be able to fit a rack of them (yes I know some ships can be fit to completely disregard their bonuses and outperfrom "bonused" fits, but I do not think that is the case here).
The ship would hardly be overpowered with a full rack of HAMs, mwd and buffer tank. I remember putting the fit into EFT once (and ignored grid) that I would optimally use; a basic buffer fit (photon, invuln, LSE) + mwd + point + HAMs + resist gang mod. Tank was something like 110k EHP and DPS with rage was like 660 without overheat. Considering that damage would be significantly reduced without TP/web on anything but BS...I think those stats are pretty ideal and balanced.
And to say "just use a tengu." Thats really not a valid argument. The nighthawk should be able to do the job of damage + gang bonus just fine. _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.10.13 16:50:00 -
[14]
People have been complaining about the NH's needlessly gimped PG for years. The motion was forwarded by the CSM to CCP, and since then, nothing.
Quote: 17. 0102-01-0047 Nighthawk needs a power grid increase While the Nighthawk may have some performance issues, due to the lack of power output, compared to the other field command ships, the ship is not designed to fit Heavy Assault Missile launchers and Micro Warp Drives. CCP plans on reviewing the command ships as a whole in the future. CCP Zulupark stated that there will be several balance changes early 2009, and that this may be part of it, with the Nighthawk getting a good look.
Early 2009. Heh.
Incidentally, don't misread the bit about HAMs and MWD. The ship is clearly intended to fit a fit a gang mod, but I agree when CCP says that it shouldn't fit HAMs AND MWD. I believe it should be able to fit HAMs OR MWD - so that HMs and MWD and gang mod will work.
The NH slot layout is pretty awful as well. Five lows and five meds - especially when any worthwhile fit requires multiple fitting mods - simply does not produce much of a tank. People may worry that the NH is already "too good" in PVE, but PVE balance should not be used to dictate PVP balance, and adding PG will not affect the PVE NH, which does not suffer from a shortage of PG, unlike the PVP fits.
Like the shield transporter CPU travesty, this is an issue that few people care about, because they've switched to using other ships/mods that actually work.
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