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Foolish Bob
Caldari FireTech In Tea We Trust
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Posted - 2009.10.16 03:17:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Foolish Bob The retribution is not a solo ship, nor is it a wtfbbqpwn ship. What it is is a good solid fleet ship that complements ships like the ishkur / arty wolf by sucking in comparison
Fixed.
not so much. Against a single target, even up to BS (but especially up to BC EHP) the retribution will almost always be on the top of the killmail. Arty wolves have less dps and ishkurs have much less range. In longer single target engagements of course the ishkur wins. If anything there's an argument for dropping wolves from fleets completely - in the discussions we have in Firetech over balanced fleet compositions the argument is explicitly between "all ishkurs melt their faces!!" and "mostly ishkurs with some longer range face melting please". It also depends on what prey you're hunting. If we were all still in Factional Warfare, then swapping some ishkurs for wolves is a no-brainer. When most of your skirmish engagements are in frigate hulls, the ability to make 10-20% of the enemy fleet detonate on your arrival on the field was something I used many times to great effect. In any case to reject retributions out of hand is to miss their power and their versatility in fleet. ----------- I am me. I am not the corp I've joined nor the alliance I fly in.
I'm also not a unique and special snowflake.
Everything I say should be taken in that context. |
Grath Telkin
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.16 04:32:00 -
[32]
I understand you like the ship, but LOOK at it.
The other ships you name can all now fit a scrambler and use it in conjunction with their AB bonus to HOLD a target down so they can apply their DPS.
ALL of them (fyi the coercer kinda sucks too, but thats destroyers in general and an entirely different topic).
Every other ship you talk about can scramble a target to disable the MWD of the target. They are all also marginally faster than the Retribution as well, shedding even more light on the need of the ship to be able to scramble targets, to KEEP things in its sphere of influence.
Yes other wingmates can have this, but you CAN'T EVER, unless you give up your AB, which means that an default in the ships current slot layout prohibits you from taking full advantage in your ships bonus systems.
How would you keep your dps on target? By always depending on somebody else?
Why would you fly the Ret when every other AF you named can and does have the ability to pick a target and apply dps, and KEEP that dps on target via a single 2ndary ewar mod?
As I said, the Retribution was the first ship I ever purposely trained for, I know exactly what its like to fly the ship, and i remember the times when the fight simply progressed beyond my sphere of influence and I was helpless to effect its outcome because of the ships failings. I probably flew it just about every day for 3 or 4 months prepping hac/inty skills.
Thats a long time to get pretty intimate with a ship and I feel pretty confident that this would improve a good ship.
Is your 5th High slot really worth THAT much to you, when even CCP admit the ship is flawed?
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Cyzlak
Karkand Kampa
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Posted - 2009.10.16 05:40:00 -
[33]
The ship is fine. No need to change anything. If you need tackle then fly another ship. If you need high DPS, low sig radius and good warp speed, fly the retri.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.16 05:45:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Foolish Bob
not so much. Against a single target, even up to BS (but especially up to BC EHP) the retribution will almost always be on the top of the killmail. Arty wolves have less dps and ishkurs have much less range. In longer single target engagements of course the ishkur wins. If anything there's an argument for dropping wolves from fleets completely - in the discussions we have in Firetech over balanced fleet compositions the argument is explicitly between "all ishkurs melt their faces!!" and "mostly ishkurs with some longer range face melting please". It also depends on what prey you're hunting. If we were all still in Factional Warfare, then swapping some ishkurs for wolves is a no-brainer. When most of your skirmish engagements are in frigate hulls, the ability to make 10-20% of the enemy fleet detonate on your arrival on the field was something I used many times to great effect. In any case to reject retributions out of hand is to miss their power and their versatility in fleet.
This.
Each ship is unique to itself...and as such you don't need to force them to be all alike in the most common roles you deem necessary for said ship.
As I said... the Assault Ship[Frigate]'s role is DPS... not tackling.
If you want to tackle you get an interceptor or a partner.
Your assumption in the basis that this ship is only able to take on smaller prey is wrong. This ship can take on anything larger... it's also normal for amarrian ships to have few mid slots.
IF CCP sees fit to change it... I'm not gonna go emorage... but I still say there is nothing wrong with this ship. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Veshta Yoshida
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.16 08:16:00 -
[35]
Heya Fool, wondered where you got off to
The Retribution is probably the ONLY focused AF of the bunch. It does damage (at range I might add) and tanks like nothing else. It is the Amarrian design philosophy condensed into a single ship providing a constant stream of 150-200dps in a 20km sphere around it. Damage support and lots of it. In a gang it is devastating and solo it will kill most softer targets before they can even make it to warp (a single bump and a LSE Omen is in hull by the time he warps, now that is power).
Second mid slot has to come from somewhere. Remove a low-slot and the ship is gimped, remove a high-slot and the fitting options drop to 1-2 with practically no deviations.
So pray tell, where should this slot come from if the ship is to remain "intact?
Give it a little extra fitting and a 5th gun mount. All options remain viable and it gets to do its job with even more efficiency
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Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
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Posted - 2009.10.16 08:28:00 -
[36]
One word:
Teamwork. :D
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Foolish Bob
Caldari FireTech In Tea We Trust
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Posted - 2009.10.16 09:07:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Grath Telkin
How would you keep your dps on target? By always depending on somebody else?
YES!!
Look, I know your pain. I've watched targets warp away from me because the ship I love has no point to keep them in place whilst I kill them, and I raged at the time too. One day though I simply accepted that I was trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. There are other ships in game that you (presumably) accept are so specialised that you can never fly them solo (kitsune for one). I don't see why this isn't the case for the retribution. With the exception (perhaps) of the ishkur I would argue that no af is a solo ship. The heavy tackle boats have the dps of an asthmatic fly who has just returned home from the shops carrying a particularly heavy bag of shopping, and the dps boats (generally) lack the tank to take down their target before they themselves die. A pack of af working together in a properly balanced fleet though really is something special. The fact that I still go to frigate gangs as my default roam almost every night I log on is testament to that. ----------- I am me. I am not the corp I've joined nor the alliance I fly in.
I'm also not a unique and special snowflake.
Everything I say should be taken in that context. |
Echo Degnar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.10.16 15:59:00 -
[38]
I would love one more Mid on my Retribution. It would certainly be less "lolwtf" in gangs. --------------- *1) Do CCP, eve-online makers, should make more surver ?
I'm your Alt. |
Ballz Diesel
Caldari 101st Covert Ops C. O. R. E.
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Posted - 2009.10.16 21:32:00 -
[39]
I love the retribution for missioning, combat sites, and other carebear activity. I prefer having the fifth high slot for a salvager. ------- Ballz Diesel C.O.R.E. |
MS5
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Posted - 2009.10.18 07:56:00 -
[40]
.
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Jeremy Samson
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Posted - 2009.10.18 08:36:00 -
[41]
Supported. Any pilot that brings one of these to a fleet deserve to be shot by his own team mates (and podded), give it 2 mids already.
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Rogue Steel
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.10.18 11:21:00 -
[42]
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Zaknussem
Intrum Industria
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Posted - 2009.10.18 13:36:00 -
[43]
I hate to rain on your parade Grath, but CCP have (at least temporarly) aborted plans to introduce the "15% AB Boost per level" any time soon. Apparentely some bright chap fit a 10MN Afterburner to an AF and CCP are looking into ways to make the bonus only apply to 1MN AB's.
Anyway, to quote Chronotis from the respective thread over in the Test Server Feedback:
Originally by: Chronotis Thanks folks for the feedback!
We have got the message from this individual change that low sec/faction warfare pvp'ers feel it will be either overpowered or not good enough and some one vs one encounters on sisi showed some interesting results which varied between the ships.
For now, thanks for the feedback on this particular change and the other suggestions which have been made thus far. We'll post again with the next iteration of the changes when they are ready for feedback soon!
The thread has been unstickied as well. |
Vuoto
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Posted - 2009.10.18 16:19:00 -
[44]
i think retribution is the only AF for a defensive proupose..... i like it i suggest another way to make that ship better
4 hi slots 1 med slot 6 low slots
this way my favorite ship will have a sense in the game. And i don't want to change it to have a mid slot more, CCP will take it from the lower making the retribution a suicide assault ship.
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Aion Amarra
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
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Posted - 2009.10.18 16:47:00 -
[45]
Supported because yeah obviously.
Take away the utility high, add a med. Duh.
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Clone 514
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Posted - 2009.10.18 16:54:00 -
[46]
Or maybe we could have disruptor that fits to high slot. Would fix all the ships with too few med slots.
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Mia McGee
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Posted - 2009.10.18 17:15:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Aion Amarra Supported because yeah obviously.
Take away the utility high, add a med. Duh.
This. This ship is worthless as it is, and it will stay worthless until it gets another mid slot.
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Phil MacMannon
Shitterdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.18 17:17:00 -
[48]
The fact that some players call this their favorite ship in the game makes me seriously doubt the intelligence of certain Amarrian pilots. Give this ship another mid slot, or just delete it from the game all together (probably just as well).
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Rip Minner
Freewind Ventures
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Posted - 2009.10.18 22:56:00 -
[49]
Got my vote. I always belived that frigs should beable to tackle and run an AF or MWD. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
MohamedLoftie
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.20 11:14:00 -
[50]
Support ! ---------------------------------------- Come to the dark side... We have cookies |
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Grath Telkin
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.21 23:29:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Zaknussem I hate to rain on your parade Grath, but CCP have (at least temporarly) aborted plans to introduce the "15% AB Boost per level" any time soon. Apparentely some bright chap fit a 10MN Afterburner to an AF and CCP are looking into ways to make the bonus only apply to 1MN AB's.
Anyway, to quote Chronotis from the respective thread over in the Test Server Feedback:
Originally by: Chronotis Thanks folks for the feedback!
We have got the message from this individual change that low sec/faction warfare pvp'ers feel it will be either overpowered or not good enough and some one vs one encounters on sisi showed some interesting results which varied between the ships.
For now, thanks for the feedback on this particular change and the other suggestions which have been made thus far. We'll post again with the next iteration of the changes when they are ready for feedback soon!
The thread has been unstickied as well.
Boosted or not, the Retribution still remains the one AF that is stuck with a single mid slot.
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Lord Kazuhiro
1st Galactic Manufacturing
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Posted - 2009.10.22 10:42:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Lord Kazuhiro on 22/10/2009 10:46:38 /Supported
Every AF should have a bare minimum of two mid slots.
Edit: A 10mn AB on a AF with 75% bonus? That guy must have been orbiting interceptors that couldn't hit him.
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Lord Cath
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Posted - 2009.10.22 19:05:00 -
[53]
make it so...
1 mid slot assault frigate is rediculous since no other race has this. Amarr have the choice between DPS with 1 mid slot, said mid slot being automaticaly reserved for a speed module so you could say the retribution has no midslots, and a vengeance, which is basicaly a tank with lolkets. conclusion, when we solo we have the choice between people laughing at us cuz they can get away whenever the **** they feel like it or we have people laughing at us cuz we're basicaly not doing enough damage (lolfits aside)
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cok cola
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.25 02:27:00 -
[54]
/signed ive even heard ccp mock the retri and any1 that has ever died to a solo retri, they know its **** but they ilynsist the **** gives it character. the retri NEEDS a high moved to a med.
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nunun
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.25 02:32:00 -
[55]
i am with u all the way :)
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Grath Telkin
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.25 05:30:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Foolish Bob
The retribution (like the coercer - also 1 mid slot) is explicitly a fleet ship. Fleet ships specialise to a role. Retri does. Works as intended. It's not like you'd suggest a damage bonus to a kitsune, so if you're ok with specialisation there, why not here?
I'm gona take issue with this bit first.
You keep bringing up the "one mid slot coercer".
Stop it, Destroyers in general suck, CCP knows it, players know it, if you don't know it, your literally the ONLY one. There's exactly ONE good Destroyer, the thrasher, the rest are in dire need of revamping, and its been a complaint of players for quite some time.
Your almost purposely misconstruing what I'm asking for on the ship by comparing moving an non weapon fitting high slot to a mid slot to allow it to a mod that HELPS it keep DPS on almost EVERY other ship in game, to giving a damage bonus to an Ewar ship.
The retribution DOES in fact specialize in a role right now, it sucks. All by itself.
IF you were going to have AF's in a gang (because honestly right now, in 0.0 they are the bottom rung of the food chain) you would want ANY other AF besides the Retribution, simply because it does NOT have any ability to tackle. Your blinding yourself to the fact that most pilots in DPS ships are expected to, and WANT to be able to stop an opponent from warping away ON THEIR OWN, and your also being blind to the fact that EVERY OTHER DPS SHIP IN THE GAME
EVERY
OTHER
ONE
Can do that (except for your crappy example in the coercer, a ship in a class so hopelessly broken that only a complete revamp could save them).
By your own argument (that the ship is a weapons platform only), the ability to fit the now changed scrams becomes a near MUST for ships like AF's so that they DO Have the option of keeping damage on a larger target by disabling the MWD capabilities and using the AB to keep safely in range.
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Storm Templar
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Posted - 2009.10.25 10:58:00 -
[57]
My loltribution is collecting dust in my hangar because of this lolayout.
SUPPORTED. ________________________________________________ For the Immortal God-Emperor.....ooops, wrong universe. |
IamBeastx
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.11.10 11:50:00 -
[58]
agreed and signed No point 'assaulting' another ship with the retri if they can run away!
http://iambeastx.mybrute.com |
TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2009.11.10 12:18:00 -
[59]
I support the idea of removing one high or low slot to add a second mid. Mainly because the other ship available is the Veng which while an awesome heavy tackler uses rockets not lasers.
Amarr pilots need moer lazors ;)
Vote TeaDaze for CSM #4
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Yon Krum
The Knights Templar R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2009.11.11 05:12:00 -
[60]
I'll side with the "keep the one mid" crew on this one.
The Retri needs help, for sure, but it doesn't need to homogenize with the rest of the AF out there. Just like I would oppose adding a second mid slot to the Coercer, the Retri merely needs to be better at it's assigned role in the Amarr lineup: dealing large amounts of face-melting damage are range, while tanking long enough to get the job done.
Yes, it could use more speed... so could all the AF.
Rather than swapping the high down to the mid, the Retribution deserves a 5th turret and concurrent increases in fitting. Plus a bit more... if any ship deserved to be able to fit top-tier frigate guns without fitting mods in both LR and damage versions, it's the Retri.
Retri could also use a higher lock-range.
The ship does very well as a replacement for the destroyers (that don't work), in keeping other frigates honest. It is still, unfortunately, a questionable choice for a gang because either you should be taking a SB for the larger targets, or tackle because your gang is heavy. Damage should be around SB levels, or a bit less, to make it reasonable.
--Krum
--Krum |
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