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Sexii Beast
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Posted - 2009.10.14 01:49:00 -
[1]
I was wondering. I'm a gallente pilot and always have been. I have decent pvp skills but they could be better and i mainly fly cruisers and frigs (afs and intys). So my question is i've always liked the sound of minmatar race ships. No cap for guns and lots of speed. Both sound very good for cap.
Is it worth my time and effort to train minmatar or should i just train my gallente skills right up? What are the up and downsides to minmatar race.
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.10.14 02:00:00 -
[2]
Minimatar cruisers are great. I hope you aren't looking for good bs though.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2009.10.14 02:09:00 -
[3]
Define how you fly and intend to use them, that is very important for the discussion.
Let me give you an example:
There was a recent thread from another player posting about how his Hurricane had trouble fighting Drakes. Most Minmatar ship do not measure up well in any straight comparison of volume like that. Instead they draw power from their surroundings and from typical elements in the larger picture. You mention two of the things yourself, both speed and cap stability is only an advantage if you manage to utilize it. I guess that can be said about most things, but what i am trying to get at is that the strength of Minmatar ships first become comprehensible when you understand how typical situations play out. Many Minmatar ships are equipped with extra slots for utility modules.
A Cane may have trouble fighting a Drake, but will have less trouble fighting off an Interceptor. Most fights that occur in EVE are not arranged one versus one of honorable electronic genitalia, instead most of them contain the element of fast tackle. They also contain variations of numbers, ships and tools available. At which point, whoever deal more sustained damage or whoever tank two seconds longer become quite irrelevant. Your improved speed may not keep you alive, but it may buy you 4 additional seconds rather than 2 and allow your gang to capitalize on that.
As a rule of thumb, Minmatar ships are flexible ships for small-medium gangs and excel in their cruiser sized line of ships.
In that role, they are among the best within many shipclasses.
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Dyaven
Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.14 02:40:00 -
[4]
I'm at nearly 20m SP with almost all of it invested in Gallente, and Medium Projectile Turret V finishes in 7d 8h 54m. I personally think they're quite worth training.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2009.10.14 02:51:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega Minimatar cruisers are great. I hope you aren't looking for good bs though.
This hurts my feelings whenever I think about the fact that my passive drake does level 4s better then my Maelstrom. And has a better tank as well.
Sure the Maelstrom has a better alpha and all but I still clear them faster in a drake. I spent how many millions of SP in Projectiles and my drake with only heavy missiles at 4 does more DPS then my, MIMITAR BS.(4 BCUs BTW, I had been planing to shield tank in a Maelstrom for the get go so it helped with the drakes tank as a bonus)
I haven't EMORAGE QUIT over this cause my Mimitar cruisers are great for PvP. And some day many months in the future ill have enough SP to fly a typhoon well. That is as soon as I catch up on my missile skills.
I am not alone in this am I?
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MadAtTheWorld
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Posted - 2009.10.14 04:39:00 -
[6]
if you are mainly wanting to fly cruisers and frigs you simply cant choose a race better than minmatar imho. rifter, thrasher, claw, stiletto, jaguar, wolf, rupture, stabber, and vaga (did i miss any?) are all great ships. on the other hand if you plan to move up to bc or bigger than i would stay as far away from minmatar as possible, with the 'cane being the only possible exception.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.10.14 04:42:00 -
[7]
Can someone explain what's bad about the maelstrom and phoon? Or are the stay away from matari bs only referring to blobs? Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 107759
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AstroPhobic
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.10.14 05:43:00 -
[8]
Originally by: NoNah Can someone explain what's bad about the maelstrom and phoon? Or are the stay away from matari bs only referring to blobs?
Space whale + weapons that have terrible damage at range + mandatory personal tank for mids = a conflicted BS with no real strengths outside of station hugging. It's the best minmatar sniper, but that's not saying much.
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FT Diomedes
Gallente Factio Paucorum
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Posted - 2009.10.14 06:12:00 -
[9]
Originally by: NoNah Can someone explain what's bad about the maelstrom and phoon? Or are the stay away from matari bs only referring to blobs?
The Typhoon has only one real problem - it requires a ton of skill points to be effective at anything. If you have T2 missiles AND T2 guns AND T2 Drones AND T2 Shield Tanking AND T2 Armor Tanking AND overall excellent support skills, it is a fine ship. It will get better with the upcoming changes, but it will still be a skill intensive beast. Once they fix the shield/armor HP issue, it will be better as well. When I flew the Typhoon in 0.0 small BS fleets (20-30 ships on each side), I was always pleased with the versatility and unpredictability of the Typhoon, but I was forever frustrated with how many SP it takes to fly it really well.
The Maelstrom suffers from the shortcomings associated with artillery. Fix artillery and the Maelstrom becomes a fine ship. It already has a great tank, but alpha isn't as important as it used to be, so it suffers in the damage department.
...this doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne |
Lucifien
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Posted - 2009.10.14 08:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: NoNah Can someone explain what's bad about the maelstrom and phoon? Or are the stay away from matari bs only referring to blobs?
Mealstrom is like a Caldari battleship with projectiles. It doesn't really fit well in the Minmatar lineup and the current state of large projectiles+active tanking leaves you better off in any of the three other races tier 3 battleship.
The Typhoon is excellent. Downsides are that it's hard to fit and require a seperate set of weapon skills compared to the rest of the lineup. Both heavy drones and torpedoes are a must, high rank and not useful on any other non-cap minmatar ship, so most minmatar pilots don't usually train these very far until they're getting maxed out in everything sub-BS.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.10.14 09:17:00 -
[11]
The upsides for the Minmatar are
-rifter -rupture -stabber -hurricane -broadsword -vagabond -typhoon(if you have awesome skills)
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.10.14 09:18:00 -
[12]
Originally by: FT Diomedes
Originally by: NoNah Can someone explain what's bad about the maelstrom and phoon? Or are the stay away from matari bs only referring to blobs?
The Typhoon has only one real problem - it requires a ton of skill points to be effective at anything. ...
that's issue of perspective. some will see all the skills they need to learn (glass half empty), others will see choices they can specialize in (glass half full). minmatar do NOT require more skills than other factions, if you specialize.
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kyrv
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Posted - 2009.10.14 09:58:00 -
[13]
minmatar the speed opens up lows slots for nanno and fall-off is a great substitute for optimal the high mid range fleet fight alphas help defeat equality if not a tad lacking otherwise.
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Studley Goodfk
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Posted - 2009.10.14 14:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ghoest The upsides for the Minmatar are
-rifter -rupture -stabber -hurricane -broadsword -vagabond -typhoon(if you have awesome skills)
-Scimitar
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Orakkus
Minmatar m3 Corp Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.14 16:20:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Sexii Beast I was wondering. I'm a gallente pilot and always have been. I have decent pvp skills but they could be better and i mainly fly cruisers and frigs (afs and intys). So my question is i've always liked the sound of minmatar race ships. No cap for guns and lots of speed. Both sound very good for cap.
Is it worth my time and effort to train minmatar or should i just train my gallente skills right up? What are the up and downsides to minmatar race.
Sounds like you've been suckered into the "But they got no cap!" argument. This argument is trumped by the fact that Minmatar ships have the smallest capacitor (and by extension, the lowest cap recharge rate) and usually the weakest tank. In your case though, those may not be issues to be concerned about.
First off, training up your Gallente skills is always a good idea and, outside of Hybrid weapons, will cross over well into many Minmatar ships (i.e. Drone skills, Armor Rep skills, etc.). Second, Taranis and Ishkur are "best of class" for both Inties and AFs so you aren't going to do much better crossing over into Minmatar at the frigate level. Third, even at the Cruiser level, the Thorax is on par with the Rupture as you probably are aware.
The only difference is really the T2 cruisers and Commandships, with the Ishtar really being the only ship to stand out for the Gallente side versus the Minmatar Vagabond, Scimitar, Broadsword, Sleipnir, Claymore, and Rapier just to name the more popular ones.
I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet. |
Sexii Beast
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Posted - 2009.10.14 19:36:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Orakkus
Originally by: Sexii Beast I was wondering. I'm a gallente pilot and always have been. I have decent pvp skills but they could be better and i mainly fly cruisers and frigs (afs and intys). So my question is i've always liked the sound of minmatar race ships. No cap for guns and lots of speed. Both sound very good for cap.
Is it worth my time and effort to train minmatar or should i just train my gallente skills right up? What are the up and downsides to minmatar race.
Sounds like you've been suckered into the "But they got no cap!" argument. This argument is trumped by the fact that Minmatar ships have the smallest capacitor (and by extension, the lowest cap recharge rate) and usually the weakest tank. In your case though, those may not be issues to be concerned about.
First off, training up your Gallente skills is always a good idea and, outside of Hybrid weapons, will cross over well into many Minmatar ships (i.e. Drone skills, Armor Rep skills, etc.). Second, Taranis and Ishkur are "best of class" for both Inties and AFs so you aren't going to do much better crossing over into Minmatar at the frigate level. Third, even at the Cruiser level, the Thorax is on par with the Rupture as you probably are aware.
The only difference is really the T2 cruisers and Commandships, with the Ishtar really being the only ship to stand out for the Gallente side versus the Minmatar Vagabond, Scimitar, Broadsword, Sleipnir, Claymore, and Rapier just to name the more popular ones.
The thing with inty and af discussion is they can get neuted (easily - just 2 small or 1 medium will do the trick most of the time) and it hurts. I've seen some fantastic videos where the passive tank and no cap guns seem to be the only reason for some of the kills. The thorax on the other hand is excellent but i have been kited due to lack of range and also i have been neuted, both really not very fun.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2009.10.14 19:59:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sexii Beast I've seen some fantastic videos where the passive tank and no cap guns seem to be the only reason for some of the kills. The thorax on the other hand is excellent but i have been kited due to lack of range and also i have been neuted, both really not very fun.
I underlined the interesting parts. You're comparing videos you've seen (that are not at all representative of day to day combat) to your day to day combat.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Sexii Beast
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Posted - 2009.10.14 20:17:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sexii Beast I've seen some fantastic videos where the passive tank and no cap guns seem to be the only reason for some of the kills. The thorax on the other hand is excellent but i have been kited due to lack of range and also i have been neuted, both really not very fun.
I underlined the interesting parts. You're comparing videos you've seen (that are not at all representative of day to day combat) to your day to day combat.
-Liang
Comparing solo videos to your own solo pvp isn't all that far off, sometime even the same setups
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Jojo Jackson
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Posted - 2009.10.14 20:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
Originally by: FT Diomedes
Originally by: NoNah Can someone explain what's bad about the maelstrom and phoon? Or are the stay away from matari bs only referring to blobs?
The Typhoon has only one real problem - it requires a ton of skill points to be effective at anything. ...
that's issue of perspective. some will see all the skills they need to learn (glass half empty), others will see choices they can specialize in (glass half full). minmatar do NOT require more skills than other factions, if you specialize.
Oh they do.
So just Minmatar needs ALL. While other races have just one primary tank and weapon system Minmatar have two (three with phone drones). And for BS-size ships this is even more terrible as you need T2 Large Guns, T2 Large Missiles, Heavy and Sentry drones and Armor tanking for one BS while the other two use Shield tanks.
If you count it in numbers, you need about twice the SP to fly the Phone compared to fly a Raven for PvE (not to count PvP where you need even more SP).
I was very frustrated as my Corp friends told me, they do level 4s with Ravens while they just have 3 to 5 mil SP when I was at 10 mil SP with my Amarr char allready still having some probs. My Minmatar char is at about 15 mil SP now and I wouldn't fly level 4s with him.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2009.10.14 21:01:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Sexii Beast Comparing solo videos to your own solo pvp isn't all that far off, sometime even the same setups
Yeah, it really is. 90% of the time I go solo PVP'ing I either get blobbed and barely make it back to the gate or end up forced to dock or running from a ship that's my exact counter.
You don't see that in a PVP vid. No, you see the one fight out of 500 where you do everything right and they do everything wrong (and/or have a lulfit). That's what makes it interesting.
I mean, yeah, I've had some pretty epic fights - really frapsworthy stuff. But it's not an every day affair. It's not day-to-day PVP.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
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MadAtTheWorld
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Posted - 2009.10.14 21:49:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sexii Beast I've seen some fantastic videos where the passive tank and no cap guns seem to be the only reason for some of the kills. The thorax on the other hand is excellent but i have been kited due to lack of range and also i have been neuted, both really not very fun.
I underlined the interesting parts. You're comparing videos you've seen (that are not at all representative of day to day combat) to your day to day combat.
-Liang
right...so... what does this have to do with his question about minmatar?
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2009.10.14 22:07:00 -
[22]
Originally by: MadAtTheWorld right...so... what does this have to do with his question about minmatar?
Perhaps it has to do with the fact that capless weapons aren't as much an advantage as a fantastic video might make it seem. Yes, caplessness can be an advantage - but it generally won't be in day-to-day combat.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Alt Tabbed
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Posted - 2009.10.14 22:07:00 -
[23]
Originally by: MadAtTheWorld
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sexii Beast I've seen some fantastic videos where the passive tank and no cap guns seem to be the only reason for some of the kills. The thorax on the other hand is excellent but i have been kited due to lack of range and also i have been neuted, both really not very fun.
I underlined the interesting parts. You're comparing videos you've seen (that are not at all representative of day to day combat) to your day to day combat.
-Liang
right...so... what does this have to do with his question about minmatar?
Pretty obvious. Liang was pointing out that youtube != factual data and should not be used as a measure of what to fly.
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MadAtTheWorld
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Posted - 2009.10.15 01:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Alt Tabbed
Originally by: MadAtTheWorld
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sexii Beast I've seen some fantastic videos where the passive tank and no cap guns seem to be the only reason for some of the kills. The thorax on the other hand is excellent but i have been kited due to lack of range and also i have been neuted, both really not very fun.
I underlined the interesting parts. You're comparing videos you've seen (that are not at all representative of day to day combat) to your day to day combat.
-Liang
right...so... what does this have to do with his question about minmatar?
Pretty obvious. Liang was pointing out that youtube != factual data and should not be used as a measure of what to fly.
ok brown-nose, thanks.
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AtheistOfDoom
Amarr The Athiest Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.15 03:07:00 -
[25]
Edited by: AtheistOfDoom on 15/10/2009 03:07:22
Originally by: Ghoest The upsides for the Minmatar are
-rifter -rupture -stabber -hurricane -cyclone -scimitar -broadsword -vagabond -typhoon(if you have awesome skills) -maelstrom -naglfar
Fixed. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
AstroPhobic
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.10.15 03:10:00 -
[26]
Originally by: AtheistOfDoom Edited by: AtheistOfDoom on 15/10/2009 03:07:22
Originally by: Ghoest The upsides for the Minmatar are
-rifter -rupture -stabber -hurricane -cyclone -scimitar -broadsword -vagabond -typhoon(if you have awesome skills) -maelstrom -naglfar
Fixed.
Stabber, cyclone and maelstrom are all mediocre IMO.
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tla s'hpyt
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Posted - 2009.10.15 03:11:00 -
[27]
Originally by: MadAtTheWorld
Originally by: Alt Tabbed
Originally by: MadAtTheWorld
QUOTE STUFF
right...so... what does this have to do with his question about minmatar?
Pretty obvious. Liang was pointing out that youtube != factual data and should not be used as a measure of what to fly.
ok brown-nose, thanks.
racist much?
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AtheistOfDoom
Amarr The Athiest Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.15 03:13:00 -
[28]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Stabber, cyclone and maelstrom are all mediocre IMO.
Are you trying to use the maelstrom in a gang? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
AstroPhobic
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.10.15 03:16:00 -
[29]
Originally by: AtheistOfDoom
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Stabber, cyclone and maelstrom are all mediocre IMO.
Are you trying to use the maelstrom in a gang?
Are you trying to use a hybrid whale-yacht-brick for solo?
Stabber is underwhelming - decent for pew pewing frigates, but so are other cruisers (see AML caracal). Cyclone has very few strengths in comparison to the hurricane, none of which follow the active tank bonus, and the maelstrom is a fat space whale with a very nice tank and decent damage but no range and no speed.
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MadAtTheWorld
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Posted - 2009.10.15 03:25:00 -
[30]
Originally by: tla s'hpyt
Originally by: MadAtTheWorld
Originally by: Alt Tabbed
Originally by: MadAtTheWorld
QUOTE STUFF
right...so... what does this have to do with his question about minmatar?
Pretty obvious. Liang was pointing out that youtube != factual data and should not be used as a measure of what to fly.
ok brown-nose, thanks.
racist much?
lol ignorant much?
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